Bonsai Bases
Dread
Join Date: 2002-07-24 Member: 993Members
Join Date: 2002-07-24 Member: 993Members
<div class="IPBDescription">They HAVE to go</div> You know how it works, commander stacks the whole base around an electrified TF in order to protect it from Skulks with low cost. It can't go on like this. It takes away the whole 'gritty marine feeling' by looking downright supid. Not to mention that it's not supposed to work like this. Turrets are not used often enough and this tactic makes the gameplay repetive, boring and the great immersion of being a TSA marine is totally gone.
Electricity: Purpose was to make TF placing less vital, so you wouldn't have to cram it against a wall. Electricity was supposed to protect the TF/RT from Skulk attacks.
Turrets: These are supposed to be the bases defending power, besides marines that is. Commander should be concentrating how he can strategically place the turrets to cover all the entrances and buildings, instead of stacking 6+ buildings around one turret factory.
And don't mention the word 'balance', please. There are hundreds and thousands of variables that can be tweaked to balance NS. Bonsai bases however, shouldn't be a strategy availlable.
Conclusion: It just doesn't fit in, ruins the immersion, makes turrets obsolete and screws up commander priorities; he should be thinking about strategic turret placement instead of 'strategically' ramming a base in über compact size. TSA != Swiss army <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
And when Gorges really start Bile Bombing marine bases, the game is already over and it doesn't matter if the buildings are stacked or not. So there's no cons to stacking either.
Electricity: Purpose was to make TF placing less vital, so you wouldn't have to cram it against a wall. Electricity was supposed to protect the TF/RT from Skulk attacks.
Turrets: These are supposed to be the bases defending power, besides marines that is. Commander should be concentrating how he can strategically place the turrets to cover all the entrances and buildings, instead of stacking 6+ buildings around one turret factory.
And don't mention the word 'balance', please. There are hundreds and thousands of variables that can be tweaked to balance NS. Bonsai bases however, shouldn't be a strategy availlable.
Conclusion: It just doesn't fit in, ruins the immersion, makes turrets obsolete and screws up commander priorities; he should be thinking about strategic turret placement instead of 'strategically' ramming a base in über compact size. TSA != Swiss army <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
And when Gorges really start Bile Bombing marine bases, the game is already over and it doesn't matter if the buildings are stacked or not. So there's no cons to stacking either.
Comments
Wiith minimum distance between structures
Wiith minimum distance between structures <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
\o/
Damn, I never noticed this in the changelogs. If that's true, I'll just SUMF and let this thread sink <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
In fact I've seen probably more wins from a marine team without this bansai base. Upgrades + pressure on the hive + a few mines here and there work much better toward winning the game then electrifying a turret factory in base.
Electricity: Purpose was to make TF placing less vital, so you wouldn't have to cram it against a wall. Electricity was supposed to protect the TF/RT from Skulk attacks.
Turrets: These are supposed to be the bases defending power, besides marines that is. Commander should be concentrating how he can strategically place the turrets to cover all the entrances and buildings, instead of stacking 6+ buildings around one turret factory.
And don't mention the word 'balance', please. There are hundreds and thousands of variables that can be tweaked to balance NS. Bonsai bases however, shouldn't be a strategy availlable.
Conclusion: It just doesn't fit in, ruins the immersion, makes turrets obsolete and screws up commander priorities; he should be thinking about strategic turret placement instead of 'strategically' ramming a base in über compact size. TSA != Swiss army <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
And when Gorges really start Bile Bombing marine bases, the game is already over and it doesn't matter if the buildings are stacked or not. So there's no cons to stacking either. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Okay;
Bonsai bases have been removed. All buildings carry a minimum build distance penalty to them.
However, electricity's range has been increased to compensate for this, so one elec TF can still protect a base.
And no offense dread, but if you really think 50 res at the start of the game is cheap enough so that you don't have to defend it is unfair, then I can't agree with that.
Any game where I see marines elec at the start almost always results in a loss for them, esp. on scrims this tatic is suicide.
Just get some fades as aliens and you will have an easy time killing lv. 1 armor marines with lv. 0 weapons. Once they are stuck at base you can claim the map and another hive and it's GG from there.
Also, your interpretation of electricity is not true. Flayra wanted electricity to remain as an alternate form of base defense, because many times turrets just can't cut it as they don't fire through buildings.
I'm sorry you don't feel the same way but try to remember this isn't your game.
And I think it fits in fine, and is really immersive as testamount to marine's staying power in certain area's as well as their abilitiy to make a situation adapt to them, which was the original and prevailing theme for marines.
Stacked bases is a lot more common on public servers with n00b comms than on good servers/scrims.
Using elec' TFs does not mean your a noob comm at all. Eleced TFs are actually a very good way of protecting bases on a pub if you don't know your marines can protect base.
Remember, we've been through TF first = n00b comm, TF at all = n00b comm, no elec = n00b comm etc.
Each option can be used for each type of game. It's the commander's job to judge the skills of his marines and according to. Don't be so hasty to throw out n00b stickers, please.
That aside, an elec tf protecting all your base structures is the next best thing. Other than protecting all your structures, elecing a tf just to protect the tf has no point. Why would you spend 30 res to get a very limited ranged, low powered attack when you could spend the same amount on 3 turrets which have a very long range, and do more damage. Just build the tf in a corner, and you can cover all sides with each turret, along with a phase gate.
If you read my post, I'm not talking about balance or resource costs. I'm talking about:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->t just doesn't fit in, ruins the immersion, makes turrets obsolete and screws up commander priorities; he should be thinking about strategic turret placement instead of 'strategically' ramming a base in über compact size.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Concentrate on what I'm saying.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Also, your interpretation of electricity is not true. Flayra wanted electricity to remain as an alternate form of base defense, because many times turrets just can't cut it as they don't fire through buildings.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My interpretation is completely correct. The problem used to be that if you placed the TF incorrectly, a Skulk could sneak behind it(between wall and the TF) and chomp it easily down and it was hard to place turrets so that they protect the tf completely. Electricity was implemented, like Flayra himself said, to make TF placement less important. Of course I can't be sure what he nowadays wants, but the last thing what was on Devs mind when electricity was first introduced, was cramming ips, ccs, pgs, armslabs and EVERYTHING around one TF. Electricity was supposed to make TF's protect _themselves_, just like RTs.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm sorry you don't feel the same way but try to remember this isn't your game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've not offended you in any way but the way I interpret that, is that you want to annoy me on purpose. Don't. Currently I have very little understanding for sarcastic remarks.
Edit: Spelling
It's not as much about if it's a viable strategy, but more about if a strategy like that should be availlable. It's similiar to stacking 8 OC's in to one pile(put them on each other) to create a super OC. It's not meant to be in the game, not like this. I wouldn't even mind TF's being used to protect the whole base with much larger electricity range, I just want to get rid of the so called Bonsai Bases. It appears that at least they are gone.
This is silly nonsense and I hope you were being flippant. While I can't speak for clan matches, in a pub game an unelectrified rt is a waste of res. The problem is, you need a TF in order to electrify. If you send your team out to gather resources and you don't have a TF in base, you'll be wasting all your time rebuilding RTs.
While I have an occasional minor gripe about the new structure placement (3.0) overall I like the way it ruins this "cluster base" movement.
As if turrets, mines, and marines wasn't enough? FFS give aliens the freaking siege cannon.
(If you're not being owned anyway)
This is silly nonsense and I hope you were being flippant. While I can't speak for clan matches, in a pub game an unelectrified rt is a waste of res. The problem is, you need a TF in order to electrify. If you send your team out to gather resources and you don't have a TF in base, you'll be wasting all your time rebuilding RTs.
While I have an occasional minor gripe about the new structure placement (3.0) overall I like the way it ruins this "cluster base" movement. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Whoa, even on a pub electrifying every RT is a huge waste of res. Given that the aliens will drop defense chambers some will go fade before 4 minutes, fades will completely nullify electricity. At this point you probably have no or minimal upgrades and probably no weapons in the field so you get pushed back and GG. On the pubs I play on, we all have our doubts about the commander if he drops a TF in base immediatly. If the aliens are able to attack your base that much, its because you're not putting enough pressure on the hive anyways and you'll lose anyways.
Electrification of res should only be done on nodes in contention (near their hive or hard to defend) and then only after you have the entire map and upgrades are already going.
Also, electric rts can be useful for detering attacks on phase gates, making jumps into enemy territory somewhat easier.
Not that electricity is always good, or efficient, but to deny it's use entirely seems unwise. Also, the alien strategy section seems to frequently report problems with the "slash and burn" strategy that relies on electric nodes. If many alien teams have difficulty dealing with electricity, then it's use can't be completely flawed.
Finally, it's unreasonable to place the burden of base defense on spawning marines. Usually, the first target of skulks that make their way into base is the ips. It's easy for a skulk to attack marines as they spawn while destroying the ip. In many cases, ips are close together, so one skulk can "defend" both. If marines are coming into the game with a 1 or two hit handicap, then victory against even a lone skulk is chancy, and will likely result in some marine deaths and or medpack expenses.
Wiith minimum distance between structures <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
\o/
Damn, I never noticed this in the changelogs. If that's true, I'll just SUMF and let this thread sink <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lol. Joo best do dat foo! <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo--> Naw just messing with ya. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
no, no he didn't.
" if you don't know your marines can protect base." means the problem is often the marines. not the comm.
"If blah is happening you'll lose anyway". No question about it in their mind!
"If I see a TF go down at the start, I immediately vote to boot!".. what a stupid way to play the game. You're meant to listen to the commander. If he has a specific goal/plan, etc, you should try to follow it, or get in the chair yourself. This is one of the things wrong with NS.
It's become a game of science, to an extent. It reminds me of StarCraft.. can you imagine the first months of people playing StarCraft? How dynamic the battles must have been?
Now it's all about build orders and rushes. People have the numbers jotted down. Everything's figured out. And if you do it wrong, you're a newbie.
NS is following suit.
You choose.
though in a pub i doubt anyone has the patience to stand still and wait...
This isn't a very good example...
I don't think that server has skill on it at all.
It's become a game of science, to an extent. It reminds me of StarCraft.. can you imagine the first months of people playing StarCraft? How dynamic the battles must have been?
Now it's all about build orders and rushes. People have the numbers jotted down. Everything's figured out. And if you do it wrong, you're a newbie.
NS is following suit. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this is the fate of all games that attempt to use the RTS platform. There will always be ways to optimize the preformance in the start, and fine tone the maneuvours and goals of your units. The diversty of the game will mutate from the original sum of units and structures to the few builds that actually work, that is unfightable. Those who know those builds will enevitably be better at the game then those who don't. I don't see what you are trying to say, you pose an opinionative problem with no solution.
[edit] that being said, I don't agree with the guy who said he immedaitly boots anyone who builds a TF first thing. I don't like having a newb comm, but I don't think it is apropiate to kick newbs just because they dont know how to play the game. Everyone has to learn somehow.