Franch Bans Religious Symbols In Schools
Mr_JeburtO
Join Date: 2003-08-29 Member: 20340Members
Join Date: 2003-08-29 Member: 20340Members
in Discussions
<div class="IPBDescription">wth</div> ok i saw this on a childrens news show (if u live in the Uk you may have heared of newsround),
Jasques Chirac beleaves that this will stop the discrimination of religions that are not christrian (mainly muslims). i myself think that this will further alienate these people further and that it is a discrace to their religious traditions, but what do u think,
heres the page <a href='http://www.paknews.com/articles.php?id=3&date1=2003-12-26' target='_blank'>artical</a>
after further reading i have also discovered that the ban has moved to germany and turkey,
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Jasques Chirac beleaves that this will stop the discrimination of religions that are not christrian (mainly muslims). i myself think that this will further alienate these people further and that it is a discrace to their religious traditions, but what do u think,
heres the page <a href='http://www.paknews.com/articles.php?id=3&date1=2003-12-26' target='_blank'>artical</a>
after further reading i have also discovered that the ban has moved to germany and turkey,
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
Well, actually they would stop sponsoring if they'd make churches pay taxes but that's the next goal.
B.T.W Vulgar Menace, ure link doesn't work <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->, but what is Psytrance?
Is that like Fluke, or Photok, stuff like that?
Sounds like an entire other topic, you should go ahead and make a thread. You simply can't say religion in general anyways, it's entirely too broad since many religions are at complete opposition.
I beleive in freedom of religion, but i am atheist myself.
At the same time, i have a hard time beleiving that 10-12 year old girls would put those burqas on their heads if it wasnt for the "brainwashing" of their peers.
If i had to absolutely choose, i would choose to keep any religions out of the school. At 18 they can do whatever they want, but at least they got those years in school where everyone was just human, not this or that religious faction.
I wasnt religious myself at 10 so i have a hard time to beleive children develop those kind of urges (to follow a certain religion) by themselves, it must be parental pressure.
Then again, maybe i am wrong... If you are a muslim or religious person, feel free to correct me, because i am absolutely not of that background.
I was a choir boy at the biggest church in my town (Montreal, Canada) for 3 years, and i still was not a christian, i did not beleive in it, i thought that singing and learning music was fun, and i liked a few of my classmates so that was an incentive to stick around for a while. Was all over by the time i was 12.
I kept harrasing the director (who was also a priest) at my school with existential questions such as "do bees go to heaven?" director: "NO, they dont go to heaven!" me: "Why not? arent they alive too?" director: "SHUT UP, THEY JUST DONT ALLRIGHT?" <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I would like a religious persons opinion! For now i am tilting towards the "no religion in school" side of the fence, but still i am confused because i think freedom is the most important thing.
BTW:
You know what they say about dead atheists
Here lies an atheist:
All dressed up,
And nowhere to go.
End with a quote <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
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DAMN YOU CHIRAC!!!!!!!
---jon stewart
Today's stupid count: 6.
If i get to 10 i shoot myself! (i dont count the ones in suggestions and ideas <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> )
*cough*
You dont get anything good back by offending Muslims, Jews, <b>and</b> Cristians <i>all at once.</i>
You also dont get a good society by saying that no one can worship the way they please in public.
However, you get a good society by breeding acceptance, empathy, understanding, and other traits into it's members.
If something in their religion is directly harmful to someone, <i>then</i> you can start making laws (IE: a cult is formed under the false name of a religion and one of it's rules is that you will do [this bad thing]) to stop said practices. As well, some of the Muslim's womens viels are quite a good idea... it protects the identity of the woman underneath. should she ever be raped or suffer similar circumstances, she would be able to enter a police station and state so without fear of repurcussions or embarassment from the situation. yet, then again, there are some aspects to it which are... uncomforting. (what's her facial expression? is she crying? is she happy? angry? about to kill me with a gleeful and evil smile upon her face?!)
Again:
This law = one more step towards <b>another</b> 9/11.
Maybe thats the whole point of that, they cant really go on warmongering mode with the US unless their populace goes along with it.
I dont know if thats the case, just putting up an interesting hypothesis <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Isnt it hard to talk about religious tolerance when you ban their symbols from public? Especially the muslim headscarf's, those things mean a lot to those women. I dont mind crosses etc, Christians are gonna have to put up with a heck of a lot worse eventually - and crosses mean little/nothing in the big scheme of things. But those scarves are important - banning them in the name of tolerance sounds intolerant to me.
Anyway, some background info:
The problem arised in both Germany and France, where there's for the first time a significant influx of Muslim people into public offices, specifically, of teachers. This is only normal - the second and in some cases already third generation has simply grown old enough to fill such positions.
This leads, however, to a few problems: Contrary to what Chirac states here, big parts of the Middle European population is <i>not</i> tolerant towards differing religious practices, which isn't that surprising as they never got into touch with it until recently.
Now suddenly, many of these people who are almost uninformed of the more moderate aspects of Muslim faiths, see their childrens teachers, and see that some of the younger women wear headscarves, something the TV has thaught us time after time <i>Muslim women are <b>forced</b> to wear by the terroristic fundamentalists.</i> Anyone not know where this is heading?
The same kinds of brains that equalled DOOM with Littleton now suddenly see a symbol of an evil foreign terroristic cult (as opposed to the faith one quarter of the worlds population follows) on the heads of the people who are <i>teaching their children</i>. This must not be, the owners of these brains reason.
To cut the ensuing story short, a very vocal part of Frances and Germanys public called for the ban of the headscarves from public schools. And politicans, who are by tradition closer to the voters opinion than reason, are quick to follow.
This led to situations where Bavaria, a state that enforced that any classroom is to be outfitted with a cross, despite loud protests from representatives of pretty much any other religion, and quite a lot Christians, as well, suddenly told its female muslim teachers that they were to seperate their occupation - in which they after all represented the secular state - and their religion. Hipocrisy in all its glory.
Personally, I consider the whole discussion a big scare, but Chiracs suggestion is at least upright enough to measure all religions by the same standard.
I'd argue that there's a big difference between <i>accepting</i> a religious practice, such as allowing the wearing of headscarves as we see it here, and <i>enforcing</i> a religious practice, such as an institutionalized prayer or the mandatory cross in the Bavarian classrooms. I'm absolutely in favor of the first, but reject the latter as it ultimately ends up in forcing a majoritys belief onto others.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hipocrisy in all its glory.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And what about wearing a head-scarve in Germany with a big ol' swastika on it?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hipocrisy in all its glory.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And what about wearing a head-scarve in Germany with a big ol' swastika on it? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The swastika was a peaceful symbol before Hitler distorted it. Now we know of it only as a symbol of hate... <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
How often must archaic symbols be perverted?!
The issue would be with the swastika... Not the head-scarve.
*hides*
I can remember people arguing that since France was a nation founded on the separation of the state and the religious it was entirely in keeping with its constitution and national identity.
Actually I remember. It <i>was</i> another forum <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
/sheepish
Read more here if you want to see the 'broad freedoms' of an Arab Islamic republic: <a href='http://www.hrw.org/wr2k3/mideast6.html' target='_blank'>http://www.hrw.org/wr2k3/mideast6.html</a>
I often see indignant posts here (particularly from foreigners) who decry the US and speak of its perceived human rights abuses or other disgareeable behavior. Why do I never see posts started about the day to day life of complete oppression throughout roughly 80% of the world's countries, of which even a fraction is 10000000 times greater than the worst offense that has occured here in decades? I'll tell you why - most so-called liberal people here don't really care about anyone except themselves, and making themselves feel better at others expense. The liberals of the Abe Lincoln Brigade that fought fascism in Spain in the 30's are long gone - replaced by spinless hypocrites that simply want to tear down anyone they feel secretly inferior to. The real victims are ignored, because it's easier to complain about America than it is to do something about the mideast. Or woman's rights throughout the globe. Or the ability to say what they want in a newspaper editorial.
Hmm, that became a bit of a rant. Still roughly in topic though.
Joke. But they now discuss whether having a "religious beard" is also to be forbidden in public institutions. The orthodox jew's beard and the muslim priest's beard are both religious symbols, so some french nutters now suggest that this should be banned too. I think the debate has completely derailed any chance at common sense in France right now.
I got the news item in danish so I don't want to link to it.
I don't disagree that France is out of line - if someone tried it in the US it would be laughed out of court in 5 minutes, and besides, we all know how much I like Frenchies <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> . The point is that far too much attention is being given to the minor loss of freedom of these muslims, and none paid to the loss of rights these same muslims inflict on people every moment of every day.
I think you are too quick to point the Trembling Finger of Righteous Wrath at two different problems. That people now claim that religious symbolic beards must be banned too is simply the logical extension of the bban on scarves (although it is just further into absurdity). This ban will harm not only muslims.
My take is that its simply a matter of stubborn french officials that wants to thump the law book because they can. And since they act with utter myopic and not to mention idiotic resolve, it's easy for more people to jump on the band wagon and make a big fuss out of a piece of quite modest clothing.
And yes, the ban is silly. I just wanted to make my devil's advocacy heard.
<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>And that veiled joke was ssuuuuuuch a groaner <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> . Puns rule!</span>
On the other hand , the pressure on young mulsim women might prevent them from going to school , which is much worse than just seeing them forced to wear a scarve.
Hey Monse, i havent been around here that long, but it seems to me you generalize waaaay too much.
Until the muslims in france show some religious tolerance???
What kind of racist oversimplified group-scapegoating is that?
Again, this is group scapegoating, the same kind i read when i read your post on why non-violent protests by palestinians will not work because "they" are blowing themselves up on civilians, as if palestinians were one and the same.
In the quote up here, you are implying that "these muslims" (all french muslims) inflict a loss of rights on people everyday. You seem to think that group punishment is fitting just because of religious or ethnic origin.
Dont wanna flame you or anything (really) but thats how those people who blow themselves up against civilians in Israel think like (jew = guilty). The difference in what you are saying is that you bunch up all the muslims (instead of jews) together and speak as if they are one single entity.
EDIT: not trying to say you want violence against them, but seeing an ethnic group as collectively guilty, thats whats alike
If i thought like you did, id bunch up all "the americans" being the same as mad cowboy Bush.
But im not like that.