Co_core
Immacolata
Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2140Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2140Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
<div class="IPBDescription">Map feedback thread</div> Second map feedback discussions thread. Let our mappers have some feedback on maps that I know you all have opinions on.
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'><b>Reminder</b></span>
Try to focus on gameplay and less on aesthetitcs. But all commentary is needed, just bear in mind that the mappers are a lot better at mapping than you are, but you know more about how their maps play out gamewise.
The mappers decide what to listen to and what to ignore.
Please feel free to include screenshots of 640x480 or smaller to make your point. JPGs only.
Now please bear this in mind for when you give feedback
<b>How to post feedback - an etiquette crash course</b>
Critique is incomplete without praise.
Praise without critique is flatter and it won't help the mapper to make the map better. Save it for the "OMG I Love <ns_whatever> threads"
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'><b>Examples</b></span>
<u>BAD:</u><i> "Honestly not a big fan of this map, visually. Personally, I'm not a fan of the room with the ladder, you have to cross if you choose to stick to the main route. The architecture is plain, and the ladder seems like a rushed solution. Likewise, I think that bits of the underground corridor, and the marine start are both a bit too plain. Could do with some more details."</i>
Bad critique. Though very specific it also makes generalized statements as "too plain". There is absolutely no positive here, and if I were a mapper I'd quickly ignore this post.
<u>GOOD:</u><i> "I like the gameplay, but some areas look a bit.. ugly. I'd say retexture or extra detail. And also, marines always take the Bridge > Observatory route if you know what I mean. The other route is somehow unattractive, I think it's because it's dark.."</i>
People tend to note the bad things more, as they say, the nail that sticks out gets hammered down. However, for each criticism you have for a map, try hard to think about something that is good. Comments like "I like the map except for" are nice, but if you can be more specific, try to. I am not asking for 10 bullete points of positives.
But to put you into the right frame of mind I want you to force yourself to articulate a part of the map that you do like. Are there areas of the map that you have played great battles in? Is it easy to be a skulk? Can onos fit in all spots of the map with easy and do not have to crouch? Try, I know its hard but it is important, otherwise these map feedback threads turns into whinefests.
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'><b>Now lets discuss Co_core</b></span>
I have included a screenshot to remind people of which map I am talking about.
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'><b>Reminder</b></span>
Try to focus on gameplay and less on aesthetitcs. But all commentary is needed, just bear in mind that the mappers are a lot better at mapping than you are, but you know more about how their maps play out gamewise.
The mappers decide what to listen to and what to ignore.
Please feel free to include screenshots of 640x480 or smaller to make your point. JPGs only.
Now please bear this in mind for when you give feedback
<b>How to post feedback - an etiquette crash course</b>
Critique is incomplete without praise.
Praise without critique is flatter and it won't help the mapper to make the map better. Save it for the "OMG I Love <ns_whatever> threads"
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'><b>Examples</b></span>
<u>BAD:</u><i> "Honestly not a big fan of this map, visually. Personally, I'm not a fan of the room with the ladder, you have to cross if you choose to stick to the main route. The architecture is plain, and the ladder seems like a rushed solution. Likewise, I think that bits of the underground corridor, and the marine start are both a bit too plain. Could do with some more details."</i>
Bad critique. Though very specific it also makes generalized statements as "too plain". There is absolutely no positive here, and if I were a mapper I'd quickly ignore this post.
<u>GOOD:</u><i> "I like the gameplay, but some areas look a bit.. ugly. I'd say retexture or extra detail. And also, marines always take the Bridge > Observatory route if you know what I mean. The other route is somehow unattractive, I think it's because it's dark.."</i>
People tend to note the bad things more, as they say, the nail that sticks out gets hammered down. However, for each criticism you have for a map, try hard to think about something that is good. Comments like "I like the map except for" are nice, but if you can be more specific, try to. I am not asking for 10 bullete points of positives.
But to put you into the right frame of mind I want you to force yourself to articulate a part of the map that you do like. Are there areas of the map that you have played great battles in? Is it easy to be a skulk? Can onos fit in all spots of the map with easy and do not have to crouch? Try, I know its hard but it is important, otherwise these map feedback threads turns into whinefests.
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'><b>Now lets discuss Co_core</b></span>
I have included a screenshot to remind people of which map I am talking about.
Comments
Short :
- MS too small, perfect for xeno.
- Outside area (the one in the screenshot) could use some crates to help cover skulks.
I'm just happy focus only affects slot1 weapons now <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
EDIT : Whoops, I forgot about that. You make replying to this topic quite a challenge Immacolata <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
- Overall structure. It is generally well balanced. Looks good and plays good (except for those areas I point out on top)
- Clever use of architecture to give aliens an edge. Take the ledge on top of the tunnel area. And the hive location.
More vents would good idea, not only for new tactics but to counter the situation in my picture or give an alternative route to key areas.
+ more vents
+ non-landable hive (lower the ceiling or something but dont raise the hive)
positive sides, if the marines lockdown the two main routes left / right, the middle leads straight to their CC if they leave it undefended it might turn the game around, sometimes. Onos can get around nicely there, well except the ladders near the hive but thats no real problem.
Actually you can land on the deimos and ulysses hives as well <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
As far as core goes, I like the overall layout of the map. This map seems to have alot of midmap showdowns as basically every path converges in the center area of the map. If someone takes the lower route they can be seen from the upper route and vice versa. This creates alot of action, though a quiet alternative might be nice.
The main thing I don't like about this map is the hive area. I have trouble getting between levels to defend the hive alot of times. This is especially annoying chasing jetpackers. I can drop down fine as skulk but getting back up is a bit of a hastle unless I go to the sides, and by the time I get up the jper is back on the lower level. This happened when I was onos once too trying to devour the jper. By the time I got down, he was back up top and by the time I got up he was down again. It makes defense a bit hard, especially since the marines can shoot the hive from the hallway.
I think that perhaps some vents would add a bit of flavor to the map. The majority of the time I see marines win this map due to their projectiles. They camp up in a wall against the entrance to their base and shoot anything they see. The previous hive problems compound the issue a bit. When I do see aliens win this map, 90% of the time it is within 5 minutes of the start of the round due to focus spawn camping.
Ok I've played most of the combat maps and this has to be my favorite. If the aliens aren't quick enough to upgrade they are bound to lose though.
On that note, I would recommend putting in some way to make a short entrance into marine base. At the start of the round i generally see about 1/2 of marines in right hallway, 1/2 in left, just gunning down anything that moves. There's no third option, just two fairly long approaches to the marine base.
That's the only failing of this map as I see it, otherwise I love it.
And a sidenote: Just web up the hive, bye bye JPs. You have to go through gorge to get new lifeforms, just stop and get abilities 3 and 4 on your way. It might just save the game.
The ladders in the hive are annoying at many times, mostly to onos and now gorges. A ramp from the first to second story would be very nice.
The small gaps between the hive and top platform that you can barely squeeze through are annoying, maybe make them bigger.
The hallway that has been mentioned is very strong for marines, especially a gl. You can lob grenades and hit the hive from way too far away.
The marines ability to camp their spawn and kill all oncoming skulks is troublesome, but not a horrible issue.
In all this is one of my favorite maps simply due to the fevered fighting that occurs every game. The short distance between the hive and cc make for alot of rushing and chaos. I like how the main room is one big area with an upper and lower level. I personally don't see the need for a vent around marine start, but it would be cool nonetheless. Overall, a very good map with lots of fun times.
The layout of the upper and lower levels is wonderful. The 3-level battle (highest, where the ramp leads up to), mid level, where the marines come out of, and lower level make some interesting combat tatics. Aliens pour up over the sides from the lower level, and drop down from above to attack marines looking for the ranged advantage in a big room. Battles are big and bloody, so to speak =p.
I would like to see some commentary (unless I missed it already) on the new NS_maps, Ayumi, Agora, and perhaps the redone nancy. (get around to it soon Immacolata? =p)
However despite all this there are a few issues, most of which have already been covered but repition never hurt anyone, right? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The hive is just a pain in the buttock, you can get shot at from a hallway and a jper in there can fly around quite easily. Maybe some sort of pipes accross the two large things either side of the hive, high enough to not block an onos but something that can cause a roadblock for JPers.
The MS really easily defendable, on a largish game marines can just sit at either entrance and watch the points tally up. I'd suggest some vents from the large room in the middle either taking you directly into the MS with maybe a weldable to close it somewhere or one just outside the entrance with no weldable.
Shrug. Good gubbins though <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
If you're gonna say a map sucks, at least give some freaking reasons, because what you just posted is pretty much trolling
I love the level-over-level gameplay with the bridge and the overall flow of this map "feels" good. I like the lighting techniqes and the overall layout.
I can't think of much I would change here to be honest, I think I would make the marine start AND hive area bigger, they both make my claustrophobic side ache. And maybe throw in a neat particle system just for a little extra visual appeal.
Bottomline: Love the map, could be a hair "roomier".
~ DarkATi
This should be improved
- You can shoot the Hive from too far
- The vent next to the Hive seems too camper friendly, if you go in there with 2 Marines, one armed with a GL and one with a HMG or Shotty the Aliens are gonna have a real hard time getting you out of there.
- Marine spawn point needs to be a little bit bigger, it can be quite the spawnkillingfest
The good points about the map, parts that should stay the way they are
- The middle part of the map is one of the best, if not the best, place in NS to fight. The open part allows Lerks and JP's to manoeuver freely and yet the grounbound players still aren't chanceless
- The water in the middle allows Marines to quickly escape the upper part without taking any falling damage
- The rest of the map allows both Aliens and Marines to lay some devastating ambushes
I short, even with all it flaws Core is still the best map around
Likes:
+ Nice central area with bloody battles and some space for a variety of tactics.
+ Overall balance of the map, its not too one sided if the game takes off.
+ The seemless transition from a rocky area that is the hive to the clean and very technical looking marine spawn.
+ The small hiding spots above the central battle area are a nice touch.
+ Ability for all classes (in both races) to move aroud the map easily.
+ The overall atmosphere is great.
Dislikes/Suggestions:
- Early game is a bit one sided towards the marines due to only two entrances to their spawn. It allows marines to level faster than aliens if they work together.
- There needs to be a thrid entrace into the marine spawn, I suggest placing a vent in the central area that leads to a gap, possibly two, above the marine spawn (it gives them something else to look out for, and provides a third entrance).
- Some aspects of the hive are fine, i like its current layout in how players access both levels, but the lower entrace exposes hte hive too much to marine fire from a distance. Mabye make the entrace a bit more or a U-Turn shape?
- The area behind the command chair makes it hard for both races to manovur around, mabye extend that small pocket of the MS to make it a bit easier to both attack as an alien and weld or kill attcking enemies as a marine.
- There is a fiar ammout of water both in the hive and in the lower level of the central room, it does slow aliens down quite alot when they enter it, mabye add some sort of steam particle effect that rises out of the water to provide some cover (it also adds another tactical element that cloaked aliens can be exposed when standing infront of the steam).
- The hive doesnt have an infested feel too it, possibly retexture some of the rocks and floors in the area to look infested, some of that alien mesh would look great hanging between the two pillars.
Sorry its a bit long winded but the best combat map can only get better if a few little things are refined. Hey isn't that what made dust a standout map for cs?
The underside of the middle area, though, is extreamly under used. I believe this is because the advantage you recieve when you have hight, as marines on the ground are more likly to be ambushed than if they were on the top.
To fix this, I say that you should make the underside more accessable to both sides, and it takes less time to get there. This should balance out the advantage in hight, and the speed of going on the underside area.
Nowadays I can't really tell which way it swings, but it has gotten a tad more enjoyable for me. I find the MS is quite small in comparison with other co maps, and it causes a very mineshaft like effect, where it's just about impossible to effectively defend it as a marine. Unlike mineshaft however, core seems to advantage grenade launchers in a big way. The two small rooms outside the marine start make great targets for grenades as there isn't much room for aliens to dodge away from them.
If you check the picture below you'll see another area where grenade launchers are extremely happy, not only because they can duck back around the corner to their left at any time, but also because as soon as the hive becomes visible, you can hit it perfectly every time because the little "50m" indicator is bang on the money, meaning there are no "rangefinding" shots needed to start hitting the hive directly (which means aliens get less time to react to an incoming GL.
<span style='color:red'>****Similiar image already posted****</span>
Ahah! Ekaj made core too, that explains the mineshaft "feel."
~ DarkATi
<span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'>Whoever made this great map, don't change it AT ALL, I can assure you this one will be a league/clan/pub favorite.</span>
Sure, you can shoot the hive from afar, but this is in a way a good thing, as aliens can't just camp the early game, and the marine spawn is small, making it hard also for marines to camp and not get owned by spores/xeno.
This map promotes PURE ACTION as it is, which is what combat is all about. This map is easily my favorite one, a pure fragfest with plenty of area's in the map for each side to take advantage of, so that it is all balanced out in the end.
Lesee--the "long shot" at the hive from the lower level has been mentioned. That's my main gripe. Moving along that high cieling you can drop down fairly close to the marines, but a vent that exited near there would be nice. Perhaps on top of the ledge in the central area?
The hive needs a bit more breather space around it (as mentioned) to let skulks move up and down the pillars near the hive more easily. Also one side of the hive is too close to the pillars to allow a skulk to fit through at the top. (I believe it's the side nearer marine start?)
The vent out of the hive to the upper level is wonderful although I don't know if it should be lined up with the hive.
Marine start needs some taller ceilings (and perhaps larger doorways?). Could also be slightly larger as it is pretty easy for spawn-camping aliens.
I think the reason I like this map most is the variety of routes it gives a silenced skulk to get behind attackers. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Although I have found some things that you might like to fix/change.
1. In the ready room: the 'Join Marines' and 'Join Aliens' on my computer shows 2 of them but only showing half of it. Take a look at the pic attached. My game resolution is 1280x960.
2. The marines spawn room's roof needs to be higher and the actual room also.
3. The two pillers next the hive should be a little further away from the hive, because it's so hard to go around the hive if you have a jetpack.
Overall great map.