Ns 3.0: State Of The Game
Maian
Join Date: 2003-02-27 Member: 14069Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Gold
Join Date: 2003-02-27 Member: 14069Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Gold
<div class="IPBDescription">my thoughts</div> Note: I posted part of this in CM forums a day or two ago.
<span style='font-size:13pt;line-height:100%'><u>NS: Classic</u></span>
The good points (since 2.01):
- Bug fixes
- Hand grenades
- Bai bai bonzai bases
- Most of the little gameplay tweaks
- Making sensory somewhat more viable
- Lerk flight
Heck, I can't list what I think makes NS 3.0b2 classic better than NS 2.01, since it's been ages since I've played 2.01. All I can say is that it's been improved, though not to the same extent from 1.04 to 2.0. Some people may be disappointed but I don't think they can deny that 3.0 is an improvement.
It's hard to say if NS classic is balanced or not. Only long term statistics could tell us that now. It's one of the most balanced betas I've seen though. HA trains are still a thorn though - they are still the hardest to counter.
However, there are some basic elements unrelated to balance that prevent NS from reaching its full potential:
1) It's not newbie-friendly enough. I've tried introducing some people to NS. Some were hooked, others shrugged it off as too hard to learn. Playing aliens as a newbie is rather frustrating, since they don't have the skill to ambush (it require both brains and skills) and kill as a skulk. Instead, they are constantly being killed by marines and yelled at by teammates to go do this and that. So they end of milling about uselessly, saving up res for nothing. I see now why R4K is good for skilled alien players - since res is more freely available to them, they tend to yell less at unskilled players. Some don't even know how to build, and those that do don't know what to build. Even if the newbie has extensive experience with marines, he won't know what to do as an alien.
2) The game is often determined in the early game, yet the game drags on far longer when victory is assured. If marines cap and electrify the majority of res nodes and aliens fail to take them out, marines are pretty much guaranteed a victory, but these games tend to last a long time. Similarly, if the aliens are completely beating back marines in the early game, marines might as well quit since they're not going to get the res to get advanced equipment. Ideally, if the game is dominated in early game, then it should end early game. Another way to address this problem is to make it harder to dominate early game, though such solutions would lead to longer games (which can be either good or bad).
3) Large games give the advantage to marines. I could care less about small 2v2 games, but large 10v10 games are popular in pubs. This means that the game should also be balanced for large games. Marines build super fast, and their range advantage is more realized. Meanwhile, aliens just get res slower.
4) Some "technologies" aren't useful/viable, namely catpacks and sensory. Actually, this is a balance issue - balance between technologies on the same race. I think this type of balance is just as important as balance between races (i.e. marines vs. aliens) in the long run. So while the races can be balanced, it would just hide tech imbalances. Fixing these "internal" balances would greatly enhance gameplay. On a related note, some technologies aren't diverse enough, especially marine weaponry.
There are some other issues, but they are too specific and relatively minor compared to the one I've listed.
<span style='font-size:13pt;line-height:100%'><u>NS: Combat</u></span>
Combat is a very refreshing departure from classic gameplay. It has the potential to feature short enjoyable games that casual players can easily partake in. It's a simple blast of FPS/RPG (emphasis on FPS) fun. Combat is also fairly balanced.
Okay, enough of the praise, since there's plenty more where that came from. On to the criticisms:
1) First and foremost, games are too long. One of Counter-Strike's really good points is that it features short games - short games are ideal for the casual gamer. However, even for the more hardcore NS fans, the long games are boring - all the exciting action occurs before players reach level 10.
2) The inability to redo upgrades is both frustrating and limits strategic gameplay. Frustrating in that it's easy to regret your decisions and mistakes. Limiting in that players have a much much harder time in adapting, and adaptation is key to strategic gameplay. However, at the same time, it can't be too easy to adapt, since that would make games even longer. This is a rather delicate issue, but I consider it important enough to be a priority.
I have other gripes on gameplay (grenade launchers, blocking onos, etc.), but they are less important than the above issues.
Overall, NS continues to be very enjoyable. I'll add more thoughts, once they solidify...
<span style='font-size:13pt;line-height:100%'><u>NS: Classic</u></span>
The good points (since 2.01):
- Bug fixes
- Hand grenades
- Bai bai bonzai bases
- Most of the little gameplay tweaks
- Making sensory somewhat more viable
- Lerk flight
Heck, I can't list what I think makes NS 3.0b2 classic better than NS 2.01, since it's been ages since I've played 2.01. All I can say is that it's been improved, though not to the same extent from 1.04 to 2.0. Some people may be disappointed but I don't think they can deny that 3.0 is an improvement.
It's hard to say if NS classic is balanced or not. Only long term statistics could tell us that now. It's one of the most balanced betas I've seen though. HA trains are still a thorn though - they are still the hardest to counter.
However, there are some basic elements unrelated to balance that prevent NS from reaching its full potential:
1) It's not newbie-friendly enough. I've tried introducing some people to NS. Some were hooked, others shrugged it off as too hard to learn. Playing aliens as a newbie is rather frustrating, since they don't have the skill to ambush (it require both brains and skills) and kill as a skulk. Instead, they are constantly being killed by marines and yelled at by teammates to go do this and that. So they end of milling about uselessly, saving up res for nothing. I see now why R4K is good for skilled alien players - since res is more freely available to them, they tend to yell less at unskilled players. Some don't even know how to build, and those that do don't know what to build. Even if the newbie has extensive experience with marines, he won't know what to do as an alien.
2) The game is often determined in the early game, yet the game drags on far longer when victory is assured. If marines cap and electrify the majority of res nodes and aliens fail to take them out, marines are pretty much guaranteed a victory, but these games tend to last a long time. Similarly, if the aliens are completely beating back marines in the early game, marines might as well quit since they're not going to get the res to get advanced equipment. Ideally, if the game is dominated in early game, then it should end early game. Another way to address this problem is to make it harder to dominate early game, though such solutions would lead to longer games (which can be either good or bad).
3) Large games give the advantage to marines. I could care less about small 2v2 games, but large 10v10 games are popular in pubs. This means that the game should also be balanced for large games. Marines build super fast, and their range advantage is more realized. Meanwhile, aliens just get res slower.
4) Some "technologies" aren't useful/viable, namely catpacks and sensory. Actually, this is a balance issue - balance between technologies on the same race. I think this type of balance is just as important as balance between races (i.e. marines vs. aliens) in the long run. So while the races can be balanced, it would just hide tech imbalances. Fixing these "internal" balances would greatly enhance gameplay. On a related note, some technologies aren't diverse enough, especially marine weaponry.
There are some other issues, but they are too specific and relatively minor compared to the one I've listed.
<span style='font-size:13pt;line-height:100%'><u>NS: Combat</u></span>
Combat is a very refreshing departure from classic gameplay. It has the potential to feature short enjoyable games that casual players can easily partake in. It's a simple blast of FPS/RPG (emphasis on FPS) fun. Combat is also fairly balanced.
Okay, enough of the praise, since there's plenty more where that came from. On to the criticisms:
1) First and foremost, games are too long. One of Counter-Strike's really good points is that it features short games - short games are ideal for the casual gamer. However, even for the more hardcore NS fans, the long games are boring - all the exciting action occurs before players reach level 10.
2) The inability to redo upgrades is both frustrating and limits strategic gameplay. Frustrating in that it's easy to regret your decisions and mistakes. Limiting in that players have a much much harder time in adapting, and adaptation is key to strategic gameplay. However, at the same time, it can't be too easy to adapt, since that would make games even longer. This is a rather delicate issue, but I consider it important enough to be a priority.
I have other gripes on gameplay (grenade launchers, blocking onos, etc.), but they are less important than the above issues.
Overall, NS continues to be very enjoyable. I'll add more thoughts, once they solidify...
Comments
Hm, maybe for combat, they could allow players to change ONE skill point per X round
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Some "technologies" aren't useful/viable, namely catpacks and sensory.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How, exactly, are catpacks not viable? Admittedly, I imagined them seeing more use (of course, I <i>imagined</i> slightly longer lasting catpacks, but imagination does that to you). However, I've put them to good use frequently, especially as a surprise to the onos who thinks he can bash my shotties a bit and get out okay. They seem very useful as a surprise tactic.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->However, even for the more hardcore NS fans, the long games are boring - all the exciting action occurs before players reach level 10.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Combat, perhaps... But for Classic, long games can be tons of fun. Epic games are some of the most popular and memorable. However... The issue now, imho, is that the long games are actually over in 10 minutes, with an occasional rarity, and the rest consists of formalities. That's not cool. An epic game constantly in the air <i>is</i> cool, though.
Catpacks aren't used often, even in games where there is a vet or CM commander (where they would be more familiar with catpacks). They are mostly used when marines are already winning. Catpacks are only useful for 2 weapons, and it's very hard to use. I'm not saying any significant revamp is needed, but they need to be improved.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Combat, perhaps... But for Classic, long games can be tons of fun. Epic games are some of the most popular and memorable. However... The issue now, imho, is that the long games are actually over in 10 minutes, with an occasional rarity, and the rest consists of formalities. That's not cool. An epic game constantly in the air is cool, though.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's exactly my point. Combat games are too long. Classic games that are determined early game drag on too long.
so true ...
lots of Rines=more firepower
lots of Aliens=bunch of poor skulks running around the map.
I've noticed that skulks work well with gorges: skulks + gorges > LMG marines. But gorges are slower than marines and a single shotgun can eliminate that advantage easily.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I must say that Marines have too many options, aliens have too few. That's basically the problem.
MT, PhaseGates, Sieges, Grenade Launchers, Shotties, Mines, Electrification of RTs, HMGs, centralized economy vs. aliens individual, permanent upgrades, deployable Infantry Portals. More tech than you can shake a stick at.
Aliens have the unique ability of having
Spores that are blockable by HA.
Umbra that is defeated by Explosions.
A builder class that in it self costs 10 res, and goes down faster than a kite in a thunder storm when under direct fire.
They are extremely reliant upon a rigid build order. Aliens are simply too unflexible, have too few REAL options to pick from.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree. Aliens DO have the options, but those options are limited by unviability and the hive-based tech tree.
Here's an idea to help early game aliens: add more lerks to the mix. Lerks are somewhat a counter to shotguns with their spores, so lerks + skulks > shotgun marine. The problem is the restrictive cost of lerks, which only encourages more skilled and experience players to get them early game.
I also agree that gorges are rather expensive, and that if marines happen to kill gorges, aliens are basically screwed. Not that that's a bad thing, since that gives marines the ability to rush, but those games tend to last long when marines are already have an incredible advantage (see my NS classic point 2). Therefore, unless marines are given some mechanism to kill the disadvantaged aliens quickly, I think this rush shouldn't be as effective. This may seem awkward logic to those of you who have balance in mind, but I consider this "early game victory drag on to late game" problem severe.
So here's a solution that would bring more lerks to the mix and make gorges less restrictive:
-decrease cost of gorge to 6 from 10
-decrease cost of lerks to 22 from 30
-increase cost of evo chambers to 13 from 10 (to compensate for lower gorge cost)
-decrease starting alien res to 20 from 25
-decrease lerk health by 10 and lerk armor by 10 (to compensate for the lower cost)
Now the cost of placing a RT early game is 21 (6 + 15). Since the alien gets 20 res initially and will get another 1 res by the time it reaches a res node, aliens can sill cap RTs easily early game. If marines kill lots of gorges, aliens will still be at a disadvantage, but won't be crippled. Aliens can just gorge again with 6 res.
The increase in evo chambers brings the cost of an early evo chamber to 19 (6 + 13), which is close enough to 20. The overall increased cost of evo chambers isn't that restrictive: 44 (6 + 13 + 13 + 13) compared to 40 (10 + 10 + 10 + 10). In fact, this slight increase compensates the slight decrease of placing a single evo chamber.
The decreased cost of lerk encourages more lerking, even among those players that aren't that good. An alien just has to wait for 2 res. The health and armor decrease ensures that lerks aren't too powerful early on.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->2) The inability to redo upgrades is both frustrating and limits strategic gameplay. Frustrating in that it's easy to regret your decisions and mistakes. Limiting in that players have a much much harder time in adapting, and adaptation is key to strategic gameplay. However, at the same time, it can't be too easy to adapt, since that would make games even longer. This is a rather delicate issue, but I consider it important enough to be a priority.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->HAMBONE mode allows you to change your upgrades each time you die. However, it often makes spawn camping easier and slows you down while choosing upgrades when you just want to get into the action. As a solution to this problem, I would suggest allowing people to make their upgrade decisions while they are waiting to spawn. I love HAMBONE mode. You should try it despite the spawn issue. (with a short spawn invulnerability, this issue isn't as bad)
Honestly, I think this is being addressed. The thing is, it's usually to the chagrin of veterans. The recent Fade health increase is a great example of this. Swipe/blink isn't easy to master and bouncing around a LAN game isn't nearly the same thing as actual in game experience. So you either end up with something that's relatively newbie-friendly and easy for experienced players to absolutely shred things with, or you end up with something that's balanced for experienced players, but new players will never get the hang of.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->2) The game is often determined in the early game, yet the game drags on far longer when victory is assured.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This seems to be more of a problem when the aliens are winning. When marines take the advantage, the aliens tend to fall down a slippery slope. When aliens take the advantage, marines turtle up and survive on RFK. Since the tech upgrades are permanent and the buildings are usually in a secure place (and weldable), it's far harder to just finish the game.
I think a factor in this is that 1.) alien power is largely located in their base abilities and 2.) alien power doesn't increase in the way marine power does. Third hive abilities just aren't what they used to be. Skulks, Lerks, Fades and Onos are still reliant on their basic attacks. Skulks use leap to close the distance, but it's use as a weapon is laughable and Xenocide has trouble against LA marines with armor upgrades. Lerks are all about bite/spore. Fades never graduate beyond blink/swipe and Onos always do the "devour one, gore, gore, gore" routine. Gorges seem to be the execption with bilebomb and web, but web is half the duration it used to be.
If the problem is balancing weapons for use in both classic and combat, put minimum level requirements on advanced abilities. Making third hive traits a joke so it doesn't unbalance combat isn't a good thing.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->They are extremely reliant upon a rigid build order. Aliens are simply too unflexible, have too few REAL options to pick from.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's certainly a problem. Marines have a great deal of flexibility and aliens are relegated to D>M>S. Higher lifeforms are required to take out even basic marine outposts due to electricity whereas basic marines are viable through the entire game thanks to upgrades. Sure, you can go sensory first, but focus and cloaking are countered by upgrades and structures that would be built anyway.
I must say that Marines have too many options, aliens have too few. That's basically the problem.
MT, PhaseGates, Sieges, Grenade Launchers, Shotties, Mines, Electrification of RTs, HMGs, centralized economy vs. aliens individual, permanent upgrades, deployable Infantry Portals. More tech than you can shake a stick at.
Aliens have the unique ability of having
Spores that are blockable by HA.
Umbra that is defeated by Explosions.
A builder class that in it self costs 10 res, and goes down faster than a kite in a thunder storm when under direct fire.
They are extremely reliant upon a rigid build order. Aliens are simply too unflexible, have too few REAL options to pick from.
MM... yea, I haven't seen many MC first builds anymore - the gorges don't live long enough to have any use for it, and the same goes for the skulks. Only early lerks and fades can fight off good marines, and they have an absolute need for DC's in order to stay in battle at hive one. Onoses just can't live without DC's with their upped health/armor - there is no way a healspraying gorge (at 16 pts/sec) can make up for regen or DC healing stations.