<!--QuoteBegin-Thor-Stryker+Feb 8 2004, 09:01 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Thor-Stryker @ Feb 8 2004, 09:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Actually, I was in a game with 7 onos, we did a rush and died almost instantanously. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> So, it was a 14 player server, and you had no lerks?
the game is called combat, it's designed to be fast moving. There is no point making a game go for ages when every one is running around on leve 10. in combat you are rewarded for killing, you get upgrades. Rounds should be so short that your lucky if a couple of people get to level 10. When every one is getting to level 10 sort of only makes upgrades a cosmetic feature.
CC shouldn't have a heal rate nor should you be able to heal it. Hive should have no healing. 7 - 10min round time should be brought back into combat just like pre beta. possible let people level up faster.
Just a note. Focus/Leap Skulks and decent lerks can easily splatter a JP, especially with SoF. Combined with the cramped confines in certain areas and the usually secluded areas JPs take, they won't be able to do much if even 1 superskulk or lerk dedicates himself to the anti-jp role.
Onos spawncamp increadibly well, have you ever tried it? Especially with a lerk and umbra. Fades can spawncamp as long as there's one or no heavies.
The funny thing is, everyone that has complained about jetpacks being overpowered compares them with onos, which are not even close to a counter. Lerks kill jets easy with umbra and spores (and flying in for the bite) and cost TWO LESS. I kill more jets with focus fade than anything else, personally. Xeno is also a great counter, considering its range.
My only comment when people say aliens can't finish the game is <b>stop sucking</b>. Every time I'm in that situation i have to spam teamchat "Onos spawncamp, lerks umbra, fades attack the chair" like ten thousand times before people get it together. Prior to victory, for like twenty minutes, the onos will rush the chair and die instantly to 3 hmgs with no umbra. The lerks will spore the chair and then die while flapping into a wall. The fades will walk around outside their base picking off anyone who leaves or futilely spamming acid rocket without following it up. How useless. If you'd actually work with your teammates it would be over quickly.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
<!--QuoteBegin-zojakownith+Feb 8 2004, 07:08 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (zojakownith @ Feb 8 2004, 07:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As a gorge i can take out a ramboing HA just with web and focus spit. (takes a while though) I can let a skulk take on a few ha just through webbing and heal spray. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Skip the focus next time - the small frontload you get with focus is quickly made up for by the 15% less damage over time. Yes, you heard it right.. focus is an upgrade that lets you do LESS actual damage. The reason for this is that it used to do double damage, half the speed... but at that time in the testing, NS:C didn't work at all, so all balancing was done with combat. And everyone could and did pick focus, which, together with cloaking, just owned marine outright (scan didn't work very well at that time either... oh, that was some complete alien dominance for a week there...), which resulted in focus in general being seen as overpowered. Hence, a small nerf, which results in focus being a hindrance when taking down anything that won't go down in 2 bites.
In any case, I don't think those 15% makes sense anymore. With the limited number of buys you can do as a fade or an onos, focus isn't likely to be THAT important. In NS:C, it has never made sense, of course.
After getting pwned by rines 5 minutes ago, I went gorge to my dismay, realizing no matter how much I heal, the hive wasn't gaining hp's back. We were better than the rines by far, but it didn't matter, couldn't heal the hive. Until this is fixed I'm avoiding combat like the plague, and leaving servers after a co_ map pops into the rotation. I try and seek out ns classic map servers only.
Combat at this junction is a <span style='font-size:17pt;line-height:100%'> waste of time </span>.
gorge is an pretty good offensive unit, but realistically you need to lvl to 10 first as a skulk, or atleast high level.
As a gorge i can take out a ramboing HA just with web and focus spit. (takes a while though) I can let a skulk take on a few ha just through webbing and heal spray.
However only one weld should count towards healing the CC because welder does cost 1 point, but like was said before they still have better offensive capabilities then gorges. Gorge costs 1 point but then your removed from offensive fights except against rambos or if you have teamates around you.
Gorge should be kept in though because it provides a good counter against JP, which in turn has a counter of welding or GL.
<!--QuoteBegin-Delphi+Feb 8 2004, 10:40 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Delphi @ Feb 8 2004, 10:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And your marine welding statistics are off. And you should take about an eighth of that 3 minutes, since there were three welders (Cut it in half twice), and it probably was never below half health, considering the slaughter. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Umm, why would you cut healing time in half twice because there're 3 welders?
I mean, sure, you cut the time in half once if there's 2 welders instead of 1, fine. But that 3rd welder is going to be as good as one of the others, not both of them... It's works out as cutting time to a third, not a quarter.
Yeah, nitpicking perhaps, but seeing as you were talking about someone elses statistics on the matter being wrong, I felt I should point out that yours were, in fact, not right. <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Unfortunately, my best solutions involve redoing all combat maps since I feel like the CC/hive win scenario is flawed. Since that doesn't seem to be an option, my best suggestion would be to take out the gorge again and return hive heal rate to Beta 1 levels plus a little more. (~5hp?) It was FUN that way, and that's what's important.
Having the CC "heal" itself is a ridiculous idea. We might as well make the marines and aliens totally alike to create perfect balance. The differences are what keeps NS interesting. Why sacrifice that for balance when there are other solutions?
<!--QuoteBegin-Redford+Feb 7 2004, 10:54 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Redford @ Feb 7 2004, 10:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> the heal rate of the welder is 50hp/sec (taken from the ns 3.0beta manual). That means a 10K hp CC, being welded by ONE marine, would take 200 seconds (that's 3:20) to be fully repaired. If a single marine was, in fact welding the CC and it was being repaired "in five seconds", that would mean you did 250 damage - which means you hit it less then five times during your whole attack.
The heal rate of a horge is 64/hp per spray (to buildings), with .63 sprays per sec (also from manual). Every spray from a gorge heals about 1% of a hive's 6K hp with one spray. Thusly, a single gorge can repair the hive from near death to full hp in about 120-130 seconds - which is actually faster then marines.
So, perhaps healing rate really isn't the problem here, eh? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Uh it takes quite a while to respawn ya know.. .the 5 seconds complete heal was just EXAGGERATION.
<!--QuoteBegin-UNKNOWN16+Feb 8 2004, 11:24 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (UNKNOWN16 @ Feb 8 2004, 11:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> the game is called combat, it's designed to be fast moving. There is no point making a game go for ages when every one is running around on leve 10. in combat you are rewarded for killing, you get upgrades. Rounds should be so short that your lucky if a couple of people get to level 10. When every one is getting to level 10 sort of only makes upgrades a cosmetic feature.
<b>CC shouldn't have a heal rate nor should you be able to heal it. Hive should have no healing.</b> 7 - 10min round time should be brought back into combat just like pre beta. possible let people level up faster.
Now you have short, fast passed, more fun games. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Since combat and regular ns are one and the same, this would be bad =\ Otherwise though, the no-healing scenario doesn't sound that bad. Sure, there's going to be a lot of early skulk victories. But eh, once you have people who can aim, taking down a group of skulks should be no problem.
Since you can't, and shouldn't remove hive healing, i would suggest keep it at it's current gimped rate. It doesn't heal nearly enough to actually make that difference between winning and losing during 99% of all games.
Remove the welder from combat =\ some would say this removes a key teamwork / strategy component of combat, but most combat games are won with JP/GL/Shotties anyway.
Comments
So, it was a 14 player server, and you had no lerks?
Gee gee. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
CC shouldn't have a heal rate nor should you be able to heal it.
Hive should have no healing.
7 - 10min round time should be brought back into combat just like pre beta.
possible let people level up faster.
Now you have short, fast passed, more fun games.
The funny thing is, everyone that has complained about jetpacks being overpowered compares them with onos, which are not even close to a counter. Lerks kill jets easy with umbra and spores (and flying in for the bite) and cost TWO LESS. I kill more jets with focus fade than anything else, personally. Xeno is also a great counter, considering its range.
My only comment when people say aliens can't finish the game is <b>stop sucking</b>. Every time I'm in that situation i have to spam teamchat "Onos spawncamp, lerks umbra, fades attack the chair" like ten thousand times before people get it together. Prior to victory, for like twenty minutes, the onos will rush the chair and die instantly to 3 hmgs with no umbra. The lerks will spore the chair and then die while flapping into a wall. The fades will walk around outside their base picking off anyone who leaves or futilely spamming acid rocket without following it up. How useless. If you'd actually work with your teammates it would be over quickly.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Skip the focus next time - the small frontload you get with focus is quickly made up for by the 15% less damage over time. Yes, you heard it right.. focus is an upgrade that lets you do LESS actual damage. The reason for this is that it used to do double damage, half the speed... but at that time in the testing, NS:C didn't work at all, so all balancing was done with combat. And everyone could and did pick focus, which, together with cloaking, just owned marine outright (scan didn't work very well at that time either... oh, that was some complete alien dominance for a week there...), which resulted in focus in general being seen as overpowered. Hence, a small nerf, which results in focus being a hindrance when taking down anything that won't go down in 2 bites.
In any case, I don't think those 15% makes sense anymore. With the limited number of buys you can do as a fade or an onos, focus isn't likely to be THAT important. In NS:C, it has never made sense, of course.
Combat at this junction is a <span style='font-size:17pt;line-height:100%'> waste of time </span>.
As a gorge i can take out a ramboing HA just with web and focus spit. (takes a while though) I can let a skulk take on a few ha just through webbing and heal spray.
However only one weld should count towards healing the CC because welder does cost 1 point, but like was said before they still have better offensive capabilities then gorges. Gorge costs 1 point but then your removed from offensive fights except against rambos or if you have teamates around you.
Gorge should be kept in though because it provides a good counter against JP, which in turn has a counter of welding or GL.
Umm, why would you cut healing time in half twice because there're 3 welders?
I mean, sure, you cut the time in half once if there's 2 welders instead of 1, fine. But that 3rd welder is going to be as good as one of the others, not both of them... It's works out as cutting time to a third, not a quarter.
Yeah, nitpicking perhaps, but seeing as you were talking about someone elses statistics on the matter being wrong, I felt I should point out that yours were, in fact, not right. <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Having the CC "heal" itself is a ridiculous idea. We might as well make the marines and aliens totally alike to create perfect balance. The differences are what keeps NS interesting. Why sacrifice that for balance when there are other solutions?
The heal rate of a horge is 64/hp per spray (to buildings), with .63 sprays per sec (also from manual). Every spray from a gorge heals about 1% of a hive's 6K hp with one spray. Thusly, a single gorge can repair the hive from near death to full hp in about 120-130 seconds - which is actually faster then marines.
So, perhaps healing rate really isn't the problem here, eh? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uh it takes quite a while to respawn ya know.. .the 5 seconds complete heal was just EXAGGERATION.
<b>CC shouldn't have a heal rate nor should you be able to heal it.
Hive should have no healing.</b>
7 - 10min round time should be brought back into combat just like pre beta.
possible let people level up faster.
Now you have short, fast passed, more fun games. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Since combat and regular ns are one and the same, this would be bad =\
Otherwise though, the no-healing scenario doesn't sound that bad. Sure, there's going to be a lot of early skulk victories. But eh, once you have people who can aim, taking down a group of skulks should be no problem.
Since you can't, and shouldn't remove hive healing, i would suggest keep it at it's current gimped rate. It doesn't heal nearly enough to actually make that difference between winning and losing during 99% of all games.
Remove the welder from combat =\ some would say this removes a key teamwork / strategy component of combat, but most combat games are won with JP/GL/Shotties anyway.
No gorges, no welder.