BGH madness!
Pulse
To create, to create and escape. Join Date: 2002-08-29 Member: 1248Members, Constellation
To create, to create and escape. Join Date: 2002-08-29 Member: 1248Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">*warning* pessimistic thoughts inside</div>What if scenario: NS is released and gradually grows in popularity until it rivals CS. Everyone and their mother knows about it, and tons of maps appear, this is good right?
Lets stop for a moment and look at Starcraft. It may not be as popular as CS but its definitly up in the top 15. Now lets look at the wide selection of maps available online with such classics as BGH, BGH, BGH, BGH variant, another BGH variant, and now a new line of maps called [no clutter] Which are even 'better' than BGH, and by 'better' I mean vomit inducing as apposed to merely sickening as the BGH line are. What do these all have in common? Its hard to spot but they all have unlimited cash in your starting location and one chokepoint, this promotes camping and never expanding, luckily, usually the players try to stay away from these tactics, by usually I mean 1 out of 1000 players might choose to expand and/or play a different map. Now, what would an NS version of such masterpieces look like? Probably 30 rescource nodes in the marine spawn and 3 hives in the same room 'balanced' by having only 20 nodes for the aliens, hell, why bother? Why not give the aliens 40 nodes? I'm afraid this might spread, it wouldn't be nearly as bad as starcraft because not anybody can host a server but it would still be there. But this could be prevented however. I have some ideas for stopping this if it happens but there will always be workarounds and I mean *always*. Ok, here's a short list of things to do about this (if you have an idea add it to the list)
BGH prevention program:
-limit the number of nodes that can be placed near eachother/in the same room
-same for the hives
-Never allow something like this to be posted on a mapping site hosted by NS.org or RR.org and tell PHL or any other big sites to watch out for this
-tooltips telling you that aggressive is the only way to go
-gameplay changes (not sure what cuz ive never played) to make sure that this would never work out in practice, I know that passive teams will be at a disadvantage but maybe if they didn't stand any chance at all (make the players fed up with a map like this so they don't want to play it or any variant anymore)
-hmmm, maybe an "I hate BGH" camp to brainwash all the potential mal-mappers, okay so I ran out of ideas, fine! I said it would be short. Now its your turn, pts and devs can tell me if this is a concern (just remember there will *always* be workarounds) and everyone can add to the list.
Lets stop for a moment and look at Starcraft. It may not be as popular as CS but its definitly up in the top 15. Now lets look at the wide selection of maps available online with such classics as BGH, BGH, BGH, BGH variant, another BGH variant, and now a new line of maps called [no clutter] Which are even 'better' than BGH, and by 'better' I mean vomit inducing as apposed to merely sickening as the BGH line are. What do these all have in common? Its hard to spot but they all have unlimited cash in your starting location and one chokepoint, this promotes camping and never expanding, luckily, usually the players try to stay away from these tactics, by usually I mean 1 out of 1000 players might choose to expand and/or play a different map. Now, what would an NS version of such masterpieces look like? Probably 30 rescource nodes in the marine spawn and 3 hives in the same room 'balanced' by having only 20 nodes for the aliens, hell, why bother? Why not give the aliens 40 nodes? I'm afraid this might spread, it wouldn't be nearly as bad as starcraft because not anybody can host a server but it would still be there. But this could be prevented however. I have some ideas for stopping this if it happens but there will always be workarounds and I mean *always*. Ok, here's a short list of things to do about this (if you have an idea add it to the list)
BGH prevention program:
-limit the number of nodes that can be placed near eachother/in the same room
-same for the hives
-Never allow something like this to be posted on a mapping site hosted by NS.org or RR.org and tell PHL or any other big sites to watch out for this
-tooltips telling you that aggressive is the only way to go
-gameplay changes (not sure what cuz ive never played) to make sure that this would never work out in practice, I know that passive teams will be at a disadvantage but maybe if they didn't stand any chance at all (make the players fed up with a map like this so they don't want to play it or any variant anymore)
-hmmm, maybe an "I hate BGH" camp to brainwash all the potential mal-mappers, okay so I ran out of ideas, fine! I said it would be short. Now its your turn, pts and devs can tell me if this is a concern (just remember there will *always* be workarounds) and everyone can add to the list.
Comments
The reason for this is that the general majority of players are too lazy to go to a website, download a zip with .bsps, .wads, .wavs, .txts, etc, etc, etc, put these in the correct folders, and then find a server running that map.
This is different from in a game like Starcraft, in which "money maps" and other custom maps can be transferred instantly, with little hassle for the player.
Technically this can be done in HL, but it is so much slower and lags the server, so many admins disable downloads from the server.
Honestly, I don't think this will ever be an issue, because even if people do make BGH style maps, noone will ever play them.
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-in all the time Ive played Hl (a long time) Ive yet to see a server that disabled pre-game downloads, maybe ingame downloads but I disable that myself because its very annoying, and the downloads rarely take more than a minute or two (and this is with my ub2r sl0w internet connection, nobody ever complains about it either.
-Almost all servers have the default maps but a good portion of them have several custum maps as well.
can someone give me a translation? I think I can understand this but I could be wrong, did he mean you can build units in SC but not NS, maybe not but you CAN have 8 marines in heavy armour with full upgrades HMGs and Gls fighing an onsolaught of fully upgraded lvl 5s. This community will allways exist in every game no matter how small the game, or the community is, I will always be bent on destroying it.
I could see an overuse of the spaceship theme used in NS tho, because the spaceship theme is ownage.
If either team sits on their arse and does nothing, their chances of winning are about 0.001% on a good day.
And if a mapper wants to try and out do the quality of a NS level, with node spam and fast resources, go right ahead. Any SC map that played well could be fun, because they all looked good.
Now think of CS, people made maps like de_box, simple map where it was just for the killing and no thought to gameplay. Is it played lots, no, it looks ugly as heck. I am pretty sure the avergae fan will love the maps to much to waste their time on NS_BoxFastRP. But if they do, good luck finding a server.
For the sake of defending this (it took me five minutes to make it! Anything that takes that long to make Has to be worth defending!<!--emo&;)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'><!--endemo--> try dod_meatgrinder2 a dm map ive been seeing often lately, someone obviosly spent a little while on this, it plays a little differently from say...cs_box with a hint of strategy and teamwork mixed in with some eye candy, however, it is based on the same tried and true formula and gets boring after a little while, you would probably spend less time playing it then the mapper did making it. This kind of thing is everywhere, and no matter how little it is, I will always kick something (usually another human being) when I see it.
[Edit]whoa! title change, didnt know you had that much power. Well... I guess that the multiple !1s werent necessecary, and annoying. But yikes!
There are 7 excellent maps included with NS. There will be dozens of servers for you to choose from. Not many will play custom maps, so don't join the server with ns_$$$$BIG$$GAME$$HUNTERS$$$$$$ if you don't want to play that map. It's not like there's going to be 5 ns servers in a couple months, all with the money maps.
Let other people have their fun with HA/HMG vs. Onos maps, their de_box maps, etc. There's no shortage of servers that <i>aren't</i> playing those maps.
However, I don't see any point in trying to prevent brainless wonders from creating such maps, as almost all servers play only official maps, and the ones that do play these dodgy maps tend to be someone with a cable modem running his own server.
Dear lord I know, and it seems like every decent server I join these days there is always a group of people like, "OMG CHANGE TO AWP_SQUAREBOXWITHCYLINDERS!" Why? I mean if you're so bored of a game and so impatient that you can't wait 2 or 3 rounds to get enough money for an awp, I think it's time to move on. I don't see how anyone gets enjoyment out of that crapfest maps.
Dear lord I know, and it seems like every decent server I join these days there is always a group of people like, "OMG CHANGE TO AWP_SQUAREBOXWITHCYLINDERS!" Why? I mean if you're so bored of a game and so impatient that you can't wait 2 or 3 rounds to get enough money for an awp, I think it's time to move on. I don't see how anyone gets enjoyment out of that crapfest maps.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
rofl so true
i dont see the point in these maps, hell even BGH maps are more fun!
errr... sounds pretty dumb to me, the marines would get their arses kicked, the level 5 is a BEAST of an alien, FAR stronger than one or even several marines. NS is built in such a way that this situation would be impossible, both logistically and tactically.
As of yet I believe it's not possible to drop weapons into maps, so marines would not be able to spawn with heavy armor and HMGs... likewise, I don't think (and a PT will correct me if I'm wrong) it's possible to get aliens to spawn as level 5s...
Also, I'm thinking that even if there are maps that try to steer gameplay towards this BGH-like scenario, there's not going to be much appeal for them. NS's allure comes in a HUGE part from its gameplay. It's not a weapon mod, it's not a DM mod, it's a strategy-FPS mod. For this reason the game will have little appeal as BGH-style except to a small crowd of lamers who are bent on leeching all the gameplay and strategy elements from it. For that and the above reasons, I think NS is safe from the evil evil gameplay-wrecking crowds.
In defense of small, rush maps, cs_duel is perfect for playing with bots (I play CS with bots rather than online). In large maps, it's a pain with bots.
However, I also hate these types of maps, I am making one. Its called ns_mulch_dm. If you ever played the TFC version of mulch_dm, then you should know there are rules to this map. Sure, it does turn into a spamfest if n00bs join but I plan on stopping people from ruining a match between 2 or more ppl in a arena. I'm too tired to explain the rest, so if you want to know more, look for the topic "Mulch_dm style maps" in the mapping forum.
Also, I don't think many of the current NS mappers (in the NS team or not) like BGH style maps either. The Max number of hives is 3 and its not possible for more (I think....) Tooltips telling aggressive is the way to go is a terrible idea. Yes sure, it does prevent camping and turtling but it also may make some players believe to go DM style instead of teamplaying. Also, campers won't beable to get any RPs if they don't have any resourse nodes.
Just my 2.5 cents.
Thing is, given an infinite amount of resources aliens wipe the floor with marines. As someone pointed out earler, 8 marines with heavy armor vs. 8 Onos' is an alien win every time.
However, that's not enough to stop the gameplay from being popular. As the devs have said (somewhere), while alien vs. alien play isn't supported right out of the box, it is possible to create maps for it. That way you could have a 'fair' match between to huge armies of Onos'. 0N0$_M4DN3SS if you will.
But wait! A Lerk sitting in an upper corner would solve that, as the Onos has no way to hurt an opponent who isn't on the ground. This still doesn't stop them, as anyone who's played a map similar in intent to 2fortsniper will know, an industrious mapper could either design the map such that there is no point the Onos can't reach, or simply disable every other alien type.
Basically it all goes to illustrate the point: Make it idiot proof, and we'll just make a better idiot.
I for one like those novelty maps. You get to use the biggest baddest weapons right from the start, whereas in a real game you might not want to try out new things with the most expensive weapon for the fear of wasting the resources. I only play those for a break from those official maps, which can be a little nerve racking after a lose streak.
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umm, thats because of a limit, i think it is at 2kb per second for every client right?
I can just imagine it now, 5 Onos versus 5 marines with GL's and HMG in HA. Onos paralyse them and charge... or maybe just charge. Marines die.
Next game, 5 Onos vs 5 Marines with jetpacks, marines get paralysed, marines fall down, marines die.
In a straight fight a marine never wins against an onos without lots of back up. Marines need to rely on terrain for an advantage.
... or teamwork. Coil's latest "Tales from the FrontLines" story is a great example of that. His squad WASTED an onos, losing only one marine... 'course they ran into a second one after that and got their arses kicked, but hey, it's the first one that counts =P
However, I don't see any point in trying to prevent brainless wonders from creating such maps, as almost all servers play only official maps, and the ones that do play these dodgy maps tend to be someone with a cable modem running his own server.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not true on the part about only guys with cable modems hosting.... I looked up servers with awp_map2 and got about 5 servers with maximum amount of people 20+ and no lag.... Then again I joined one and they were speaking "l337", and one kept shooting me through the floor mound from the other side of his base, instant head shots too... through a 40 foot in game mound. >> Wow it's been a while since I last posted.
Just a thought. I could be totally wrong, but it might be nice.
And any map that changes the gameplay to encourage speed or turtling is a BGH map to me. The problem for me is that I'm a custom map #####, constantly in search of new battlegrounds with which to change my style of play (maybe this is why I don't snipe much), and when I find a server where I get a good ping with plenty of custom maps, and all of a sudden it changes to DE_AWPBOX I have to spend a half hour waiting to for the map to change (with the risk of it changing to CS_AK47vsCOLTS2) or spend half an hour finding another server. I did mention that not anyone can host a server. It wouldn't be that much of a problem for most people but for someone who is always looking for something new this poses a slight problem, not enough to really #### me off, but annoying still.