Camping In Combat
Forlorn
Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2634Banned
Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2634Banned
<div class="IPBDescription">This MUST be adressed.</div> Okay. Combat needs to have some other objective besides killing their hive, as it stands right now the best things to do are this:
- Marines: Sit in base
- Skulks: Hover above a chokepoint
Now, out of the two, skulks camping is 100% acceptible in my eyes, while marines camping is 100% unacceptible.
Marines have RANGE. Aliens are MELEE. Of course if marines camp they are going to OWN the skulks.
It therefore follows with some common logic that sense marines have the bigger combat advantage, marines should have to kill the hive or else.
Recently, I just scrimmed some 4v4 combat and I was reaffirmed that my camping hypothesis was correct:
On our marine round, #cri just ran out on marines and attacked and won, on our alien round we got into some nice ambush positions and the marines camped.
We basically just managed to steal a few kills till I was able to go lerk, and then I was able to spore them and marines could no longer camp once we got a few upgrades, such as leap/spores.
We won our alien round eventually as well, but had we played against a more skilled clan I know the match had the potential to go on for enternity.
Flay, I know you've tried to make it so marines can't just camp, and so far you haven't liked any of the solutions, but, I plead with you, for the love of god, just add <b>something</b>, it can be a placeholder till you get a better idea, but right now it's just terrible for skulks to sit and wait for marines who are just waiting to score an easy kill by a bored skulk who walks into his crosshair.
Not fun!
So please, I don't care what you add, but add something to stop the marine camping. If marines camped in regular NS, they would die so hard it wouldn't be funny, yet if marines camp in NS:C it's still highly plausible that they could win.
Now, if I were going to suggest something new, I would say just put in a 15 min time limit, and if marines don't kill the hive they lose.
Aliens can win in two ways:
- They kill the CC
- They hold out on the time limit
- Marines: Sit in base
- Skulks: Hover above a chokepoint
Now, out of the two, skulks camping is 100% acceptible in my eyes, while marines camping is 100% unacceptible.
Marines have RANGE. Aliens are MELEE. Of course if marines camp they are going to OWN the skulks.
It therefore follows with some common logic that sense marines have the bigger combat advantage, marines should have to kill the hive or else.
Recently, I just scrimmed some 4v4 combat and I was reaffirmed that my camping hypothesis was correct:
On our marine round, #cri just ran out on marines and attacked and won, on our alien round we got into some nice ambush positions and the marines camped.
We basically just managed to steal a few kills till I was able to go lerk, and then I was able to spore them and marines could no longer camp once we got a few upgrades, such as leap/spores.
We won our alien round eventually as well, but had we played against a more skilled clan I know the match had the potential to go on for enternity.
Flay, I know you've tried to make it so marines can't just camp, and so far you haven't liked any of the solutions, but, I plead with you, for the love of god, just add <b>something</b>, it can be a placeholder till you get a better idea, but right now it's just terrible for skulks to sit and wait for marines who are just waiting to score an easy kill by a bored skulk who walks into his crosshair.
Not fun!
So please, I don't care what you add, but add something to stop the marine camping. If marines camped in regular NS, they would die so hard it wouldn't be funny, yet if marines camp in NS:C it's still highly plausible that they could win.
Now, if I were going to suggest something new, I would say just put in a 15 min time limit, and if marines don't kill the hive they lose.
Aliens can win in two ways:
- They kill the CC
- They hold out on the time limit
Comments
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For one, I agree 100% Combat was supposed to be short games, with constant action. Right now, it's just NS:Camp, not Combat. Might as well replace the armory with a BBQ in the marine spawn for all the good it does.
Now, about the timelimit. Unfortunatly I missed the build where this was tried, but from what I heard it worked VERY well, and for the life of me I can't figure out why it was removed.
From what I understand, it worked like this:
There is no Marine Command Chair, only the Hive. Each round is timed, something like 10-15 minutes. If the Kharaa manage to hold out for the length of time, they win. Marines kill the hive, they win.
No CC, no camping. The Kharaa in this model will camp, but thats what their gameplay style is all about anyway.
However, if this was implemented, I think all the CO maps should be redone to make the Marine Spawn area inacessable to the Kharaa, to prevent endless spawn camping for the remainder of the round. (perhaps have the Auto Turrets like TFC, or the like)
At least in classic marines have something good to get outside their own base (rts = goodies), which makes it worthwhile to brave the jaws of a skulk.
I think the key might be to find something that makes the aliens harder to beat as time passes, for instance by changing how much health each point of armour is worth as the game progresses. Something minor that isn't affected at all by each team's skill level but does slowly start tipping the scales in favour of the alien team.
The effect would be that marines would start finding that if they hadn't won in the first 10-15 minutes, it would be practically impossible to do so after (even if every player on both teams is lvl 10).
Please note that if somehow magically everybody had lvl 10 everything by the 5 minute mark then the game would either be balanced or tipped slightly in the marine favour, however if the marines were then to let the game drag on for another 10 minutes then the game would slowly be tipped towards the alien team who could then go for the win.
The downside to this method, is that if the tipping effects are too strong then we'll be left with the incredibly unfun gameplay where the outcome of the game is completely dependant on what one team (marines in this case) chooses to do and that their opposition (aliens) have absolutely no say in the matter. If the tipping effects are too weak, then it's just a pointless and overcomplicated feature that doesn't do jack...
Here's an idea inspired from those Tom Clancy games (or from same game in the same genre): Shooting the hive extends the time limit. That would definitely fix marine camping.
at doesn't do jack... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I definetely like this idea. It wouldn't be noticed really, but the aliens would just subtley get more and more difficult to kill... The only problem is that it WOULDN'T be obvious, and so they may just camp anyways.
<!--QuoteBegin-Maian+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Maian)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Here's an idea inspired from those Tom Clancy games (or from same game in the same genre): Shooting the hive extends the time limit. That would definitely fix marine camping.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This would work wonders, and would work great witht he last idea to stop the alien's adapting to be able to take bullets like a kevlar vest.
<!--QuoteBegin-Zek+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Pulling the CC again would fix oh so many problems with combat. But we've been suggesting it to Flayra for literally months and he's never even commented on it, so don't expect it to go in at this point...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I see plenty of problems with that one, merely because aliens are very good at ambushing and protecting a location... I was able to hold out against a team of 8 (with my other aliens) for about 10-15 minutes as a lerk, just killing anything that got close to our base (sof baybeh)
One person even commented that if it wasn't for me, the game would have been long over, and I'm quite positive they were right.
Now, i can't really predict this, because the way it is, marines always camp.... and setting up ambushes or encouraging them, while adding to the atmosphere, would take away some of the furious nature of combat... Well, maybe it would just make it less non-stop, and more atmospheric up to the point that the fury begins.
I would really like to see a variable to enable a timelimit in this way, and take away the cc, so we can test it...
I donn't think we should just change it, because many won't understand that it's a beta and we're testing stuff, but we should have some way to test it, and maybe make it defaulted as on, but still have a way for idiots or people that don't want to test to play normal...
I also think we should have a way to test the alien gradually getting stronger idea, because the way it is it's not really working, and we need to do something....
And i definetely think the timelimit would be much more effective at stoping the camping.
The way I normally see it, one jper can do considerable damage to the hive even if the hwole alien team is away, yet there is almost always a marine in the marine spawn, and in order to do a large amount of damage (since you can't really fly around and shoot a shotgun or a gl), you need to kill their whole team and have a couple people spawn camping.
Those who camp will lose under that system, those than rushed would win far more often. It wont take long for people to realise that for some strange reason marines always seem to lose the long games, and since everybody wants to win they'll start playing the strategy that gets them more wins.
Here's an idea inspired from those Tom Clancy games (or from same game in the same genre): Shooting the hive extends the time limit. That would definitely fix marine camping. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Eh that's worth a shoot although it's not always possible to shoot the hive.
edit: Just something more before any replys get to this. you could do the same for aliens if you really wanted.
edit: Just something more before any replys get to this. you could do the same for aliens if you really wanted. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This would be great for motivating marine to move out in the early game. But in the end game where aliens are constantly swarming the chair the marines need the exp provided by those kills. There would need to be a way of differentiating. Maybe something based on the number of aliens in the base.
I'd also like to see more vents leading into bases. They could be welded later but at least in the early game they would provide sneaky ways into the base until someone gets motion.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I have been thinking about this for a while, how about marines in range (place range here) of the cc get no exp. the marines can camp as long as they feel like it but get nothing for it, it feels like a nicer motivation.
edit: Just something more before any replys get to this. you could do the same for aliens if you really wanted.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can only see this method working if there is no CC and/or hive, because of the respawn/xp factor. If you did this for both, then the game would end too fast because it wouldn't be worth protecting your hive/CC, not to mention how hard you would get owned if you tried to.
I've got an idea that could possibly tweaked out to almost perfection. Instead of putting an engame timelimit, why not have a camping time limit(so to speak)?
Example: camp for more than 15 seconds and your xp per kill drops in half or more, your welding HP is doubled (since you'll be defending and not attacking).
Hell if you wanna get realy complicated, maybe have lower damage and better armor. This could be setup for both sides and would incourage the kill**** campers to go and get some by attacking, since they don't do so good at the respawn <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo--> where as any true defender would have to be healing the CC to get theh xp they need to defend. Also maybe limit the number of welders/gorges, that way there can't be too many people trying to get heal XP while camping.
I also got another few ideas but I'm not going to go through them all, but for gameplay, why not have a few CTF/PTF (replace flag with watever you want) Point Capture maps, king of the hill, etc. I'm surprised I haven't seen any of these yet. I can see these beeing very fun and a nice change in gameplay with the Combat system, especialy the point capture style. This could open up better large scale fights and more teamwork, "help defend point 2 you ****!!!" lol.
Anyways thats my input for now <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Actually I think my idea addresses this problem:
Let's say the initial time limit is 3 minutes. Marines have to shoot the hive (or do something that requires them to get off their ****) to extend the time limit. If the aliens spawn camp them so well, they'll run out of time, and the game ends early.
Nifty, eh? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Actually I think my idea addresses this problem:
Let's say the initial time limit is 3 minutes. Marines have to shoot the hive (or do something that requires them to get off their ****) to extend the time limit. If the aliens spawn camp them so well, they'll run out of time, and the game ends early.
Nifty, eh? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not really. If the aliens are owning they must STILL wait out the timelimit to win. Won't THAT be a fun game for the marines. Die. Die. Die. Die. Hooray - only 2 minutes more of spawn camping death to go. At least it's not 10.
I've never seen marines win from doing nothing but camping their spawn. It gives aliens too much time to get levels too. Not to mention aliens can always just take it a step further and camp outside the enterances to MS.
I don't know where you play, but it must be nice.
If marines camp and aliens win it is only because the aliens are just plain better at the game. If the marines and aliens both camp it turns into a very long intense game because the first person to get a level or 2 will probably win. I've actualy had conversations with people in game about various topics because nothing else was happening. Marines wouldn't leave, skulks wouldn't enter the base.
Camping marine base is just a stupidy easy way to level up, why wouldn't you do it. Especially on maps where the marine start is a huge open room.
I win games all the time by camping. Just have the whole team camp until you are level 5 or so. When you finally do move out you probably won't have too much trouble mowing down level 2 skulks. If you do, go back to camping for a while till you're a higher level.
IMO, maxxed out aliens are better than maxxed out marines when they are using teamwork. If youre whole team is composed of each type of lifeform, and you are working together, you can easily knock marines out of a camping position. The only reason I say this is because I see it all the time during NS:Classic. Marines camping with HA and full upgrades turrets, 3 hive aliens, multiple kinds of each alien. In combat, you have the exact same type of marines, only they spawn fully geared up when they do spawn. Aliens on the otherhand, have more than they would have in the classic situation. They can choose multiple upgrades from each chamber, and that gives them more of an edge than the marines can have. If aliens can do it in classic, they can do it in combat.
When it comes down to it, theres the fact of getting to level 10 in a camping situation. Well, you can either fight camping with camping, and make the other team sick of it, or you can feed them kills so they can get to level 10 easy and kill the hive. Ofcourse theres always the matter of leaving the server to find one with less gimps in it.
Cloaking - requires a level, easily countered by a 1 level marine upgrade.
Lerk - costs two levels, by then they could easily be level 5 if camping right.
Mass suicide rush - easily countered by 1 guy with motion tracking and a team willing to listen.
Camping - leads to long boring stalemates
DUH
just realized you are probably the same Norml E. High I was just playing with. Perfect example... didn't lose as single game tonight thanks to camping. 1 teammate with motion and we knew every move the aliens were making and were always ready for them.
When lerk cost 1 point, I would almost always go lerk first to counter those pesky camping marines. Spore would take away all their armor, and even if they already had resupply, one or two bites would finish the job...However, now that lerk is 2 points (and the track is different...i.e. it's not feasible to go lerk then go fade like it used to be), marines can camp away. [Certainly, lerk costing one point can be viewed as bad from the standpoint that the lerk is much more powerful than a skulk, due to its higher health, flying ability, spores, etc that come as a package deal; however, spore is the only low cost anti-camping tool that aliens have...]
When lerk cost 1 point, I would almost always go lerk first to counter those pesky camping marines. Spore would take away all their armor, and even if they already had resupply, one or two bites would finish the job...However, now that lerk is 2 points (and the track is different...i.e. it's not feasible to go lerk then go fade like it used to be), marines can camp away. [Certainly, lerk costing one point can be viewed as bad from the standpoint that the lerk is much more powerful than a skulk, due to its higher health, flying ability, spores, etc that come as a package deal; however, spore is the only low cost anti-camping tool that aliens have...] <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Even when the lerk costed a measily point, it's still not feasible to beat <b>good</b> campers with it:
To get one level up, it requires at least two kills, which is extreamlly difficult to do against marines who can aim. Say like in a scrim or something, which is my primary concern.
Here's an idea inspired from those Tom Clancy games (or from same game in the same genre): Shooting the hive extends the time limit. That would definitely fix marine camping. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Eh that's worth a shoot although it's not always possible to shoot the hive. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm wondering if each team should have their own timer under this system, so the other team doesn't benefit from their CC or hive being attacked.
Basically whichever team runs out of time first (or has their CC/hive destroyed loses)