Skulk Viability In The Late Game
Savant
Join Date: 2002-11-30 Member: 10289Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
Join Date: 2002-11-30 Member: 10289Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
<div class="IPBDescription">Make skulks worth something...</div> One of the things that I think would be good to look at would be an adaptation of the upgrades for aliens. Right now aliens have to purchase upgrades every time, and I really don't see the point to it other than to drain alien resources.
I'm wondering if instead of making aliens upgrade every time they spawn, we allow them to keep their upgrades, just like a marine will spawn with upgrades ammo and armor when they spawn. If an alien wanted to change their upgrade, they would re-research it and pay the cost.
One of the things that has always been a problem with the 'slippery slope' is that skulks become less and less viable as the game goes on, but upgrades marines can be quite potent. If we allow upgrades to remain on aliens, then an upgraded skulk will be able to retain more resources. Otherwise, a skulk in the late game won't be able to afford to spend 2-6 res every time they die, and that puts them at a distinct disadvantage.
Since this concept works in NS:combat I don't see why it isn't worth looking at for NS:classic.
Regards,
Savant
I'm wondering if instead of making aliens upgrade every time they spawn, we allow them to keep their upgrades, just like a marine will spawn with upgrades ammo and armor when they spawn. If an alien wanted to change their upgrade, they would re-research it and pay the cost.
One of the things that has always been a problem with the 'slippery slope' is that skulks become less and less viable as the game goes on, but upgrades marines can be quite potent. If we allow upgrades to remain on aliens, then an upgraded skulk will be able to retain more resources. Otherwise, a skulk in the late game won't be able to afford to spend 2-6 res every time they die, and that puts them at a distinct disadvantage.
Since this concept works in NS:combat I don't see why it isn't worth looking at for NS:classic.
Regards,
Savant
Comments
Regards,
Savant
However, assuming about 50 kills to second hive, you are looking at about 50-100 res extra for the aliens to share out by the time the 2nd hive comes up - say, about 5-10 res extra for most skulks. Of course, this would actually mostly help the not-so-good skulks, as they die a lot more... so it might not be all that much of a problem...
Upgrade time is a little like the marine's armory time, I think, and if you want a head start, you need to leave the upgrades or ammo behind.
Tygent, read.
1.) Drain on their res, which should be an issue for aliens to always consider
2.) Making a bigger punishment for aliens to die in regular. The fact that the alien will spend some downtime if he wants to get more upgrades is a small balancing act to help give marines more time to push.
Unless you have some good reasons to eliminate 1 and 2 Savant, then I really can't see why your idea should be implemented.
It would be easy to fiddle with the numbers to make it work better. Say 2 res for the first dot, 4 for the second, 8 for the third.
I think it would be worth trying out, if it gave the alien upgrades more parity with marine upgrades in larger games.
1.) Drain on their res, which should be an issue for aliens to always consider
2.) Making a bigger punishment for aliens to die in regular. The fact that the alien will spend some downtime if he wants to get more upgrades is a small balancing act to help give marines more time to push.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1: The 'drain' on the alien res is disproportionate to the drain on marine res. A level 3 upgraded marine is upgraded for life, the aliens have to keep repurchasing upgrades. It's not really a drain since most aliens forgo the upgrades because of time and cost. As such you end up with a lopsided game ANYWAY. Play any game in 3.0 and watch the kills. You'll see marines outkill the aliens by 50% or more in a 2:1 ratio. I did 5 games today and every one had marines outscoring the aliens. The res cost is not an issue at all. If anything this would only bring aliens to par.
2: There *IS* a bigger punishment for aliens dying repeatedly. It's called the respawn queue. If aliens rush off to their deaths the respawn queue will punish the team with a long wait until they can re-enter.
Respectfully, neither of your points really has anything to do with the key issue, the upgrades themselves and how they make aliens competitive in a game that s solely lacking competitiveness. People wonder marines win so often and why alien won games take so long to finish yet they refuse to give aliens even a hint of balance. My suggestion is only an attempt to try and give skulks a bit of balance in the early game. In the later game the upper level evolutions don't die so they don't have to worry about resources. This is mainly about the skulk's ability to remain competitive vs upgraded marines.
Regards,
Savant
1.) Drain on their res, which should be an issue for aliens to always consider
2.) Making a bigger punishment for aliens to die in regular. The fact that the alien will spend some downtime if he wants to get more upgrades is a small balancing act to help give marines more time to push.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1: The 'drain' on the alien res is disproportionate to the drain on marine res. A level 3 upgraded marine is upgraded for life, the aliens have to keep repurchasing upgrades. It's not really a drain since most aliens forgo the upgrades because of time and cost. As such you end up with a lopsided game ANYWAY. Play any game in 3.0 and watch the kills. You'll see marines outkill the aliens by 50% or more in a 2:1 ratio. I did 5 games today and every one had marines outscoring the aliens. The res cost is not an issue at all. If anything this would only bring aliens to par.
2: There *IS* a bigger punishment for aliens dying repeatedly. It's called the respawn queue. If aliens rush off to their deaths the respawn queue will punish the team with a long wait until they can re-enter.
Respectfully, neither of your points really has anything to do with the key issue, the upgrades themselves and how they make aliens competitive in a game that s solely lacking competitiveness. People wonder marines win so often and why alien won games take so long to finish yet they refuse to give aliens even a hint of balance. My suggestion is only an attempt to try and give skulks a bit of balance in the early game. In the later game the upper level evolutions don't die so they don't have to worry about resources. This is mainly about the skulk's ability to remain competitive vs upgraded marines.
Regards,
Savant <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I haven't gotten the impression that marines grossly overpower the aliens in this build at all.
1.) The res is disproportionate for marines to aliens in terms of upgrades, because marines have to make up for other things which cost tons of health, such as the fact it costs res to heal (free/fast for aliens), and costs res for ammo on the field. Medpacks make up a large part of any marine team's usage, unless they are severly owning the alien team so badly they do not get hit.
2.) The respawn que is never an issue unless:
a.) You play on huge servers
b.) You all die at once
As long as you die in shorter intervals, then the respawn que is little to nothing for the alien team. It takes, what, 7 seconds per hive for an alien to spawn in?
You speak of making the skulks more viable in the later game, when in reality I don't see how this would make skulks better in the late game at all. It just makes it so you can pick an upgrade and then screw and chew the whole idea of dying over and over again with a penalty of repicking your upgrades.
I don't see the point.
As I sad before, the only thing that having aliens keep their upgrades with each death would change are:
1.) Allowing aliens to conserve res, which isn't too big of an issue IMO
2.) Allow aliens back on the feild faster, which I'm not convincied is a good thing.
I support this since it helps end games more quickly. Anything to break turtling marines is good IMO.
It also helps keep aliens as mobile as possible, which in turn would help counteract marine mobility. It may not be a problem early on for aliens, but once marines get PGs, their mobility rivals that of aliens. Aliens are supposed to have the advantage in mobility, while marines focus on strong defenses.
And only costs 10 res. - Its a DC/MC in one! and it drops wedlers and shotties!
Armories p0wn
1) Only have LMGs and stuff
2) Controlled too much of the map
3) Have sv_cheats on
The thing I'm worrying about though, is if the code for it isn't written properly. Could cause lots of issues if the server requests for the client's upgrades, store them, but <b>not</b> purge them when they get a new upgrade, and stores that in too. Causing computer resource issues.
But of course, I don't know how easy or how hard it is to code that in, since I've never done any coding ever in my life.
Other than Leap and Xenocide, I don't see skulks anymore than just something used to harass marines, leaving me nothing more to do than just hit and run or go for suicide runs.
What I propose though, is increased carapace effectiveness on skulks, since that is generally the most used upgrade for skulks.
- less downtime, aliens would be back in action very quick
- faster higher evolutions, you do not have to spend 2-6 res after every death
The problem is this. Marines get upgrades. Aliens get upgrades.
Marines get HA/HMG/SG, aliens have only skulks (with upgrades) -> game over.
Aliens get Onos/Fade, marines have no HA/HMG/SG (but upgrades) -> not game over.
No. If you increase carapace effectivness, you enforce DMS even stronger than it already is. Don't do that.
This is one of the reasons why marines are so hard to finish off and aliens are easy to finish off.
Marines get to tech up continually and they keep their upgrades. When the game is over, they usually lost their upgades only moments before the game ended.
Aliens, with two or three hives, are at the mercy of losing a hive and weakening the team. Marines don't have that weakened state and that is why marines will ALWAYS be stronger than aliens in the present game.
There is no way to attack and take LVL2 marines down to LVL1. Before anyone tries to suggest a targetted attack on the marine base, let me save you the trouble. A targetted attack no longer works for many reasons.
-electrified TF in the center of important buildings
-gobs of cheap and deadly turrets
-distress beacon now hauls back deal AND alive marines to base in case of attack
In other words, the marine base is untouchable until the aliens achieve 3 hives and upper level aliens.
However, the aliens don't have that same luxury.
They are at risk to lose some of their upgrades and weapons if marines pull off a suicide attack. While marines may lose much in terms of res, for marines res is not an issue with a single res pool. However, once that alien hive is down the marines have a tactical advantage over the aliens, whereas the aliens can never gain an equal tactical advantage over the marines unless they have an inexperienced comm.
Frankly I'd like to see upgrades AND hive weapons stay the entire game for aliens. If they get two hives, then they have 2 hive weapons for the rest of the game.
"What's the point of taking out hives then?" you ask...
Simple. To win the game.
A balanced game (with alien upgrades and hive weapons being persistent) would make marines become more motivated to attack hives BEFORE they finish building, instead of camping their base and the local double node saving up res for the first of many heavy trains.
This would make for a much more balanced end game instead of the horrid slippery slope and alien F4 end game that we see most of the time.
Regards,
Savant
That doesn't make much sense, and more importantly, the fast 3rd hive strat would be much harder to counter for marines (if marines focus on hive control, they'll lose RT control, and if they fail, the consequences are disastrous).
Alternative:
I like the idea of adding some form of res upkeep to structures. Res upkeep can be in one of these forms:
1) upkeep > RT res rate => negative net res rate
2) upkeep > RT res rate => disables structures, starting with those that have highest upkeep costs (generally tech structures)
3) upkeep > RT res rate => 0 net res rate (doesn't go negative)
It would obviously be harder to implement and balance, but it would really address marine dominance at late game by giving aliens new comeback chances. In fact, it will speed up marine endgame by discouraging marines from trying to fully stabilize the situation before advancing onto the last hive. Since locking down hives with seige turrets and electricity would cost too much to maintain for long, marines would focus on the offensive. Again, if hives aren't so easily locked down by seiges, aliens can mount new surprise comebacks.
Speaking of electricity, RT electrification could cost less to upgrade and just require a bit of upkeep (net result of slower res rate from the RT). This is just an example of how versatile such a system could be.
As for marine res, they don't need RT control. All they need is the marine start res and the local double node (or two single nodes - one in an empty hive). Once those nodes are secure they will have all the res they need to do whatever they want.
The idea is that marines shouldn't be guaranteed a win by simply taking out one hive. Yet that is what happens ALL the time in game. Lose one hive and because of the implications and lack of weapons aliens end up losing the game. In NS:classic a one hive loss should not be that big a setback AFTER the hive is built. If marines want to sit on their collective behinds and allow aliens to get 2 or three hives built then they SHOULD face a greater risk of losing the game because they will have to fight aliens that will not get weaker after a hive is taken out.
If this was implemented games would be a LOT more fun and competitive, and they wouldn't drag on with people knowing they they can't win but they still have to play. Marines would have to lock down hives AND HOLD THEM, instead of sitting on their behinds and sandbagging until they can afford a heavy train.
I can't see how this would do anything but improve gameplay.
Regards,
Savant
This is one of the reasons why marines are so hard to finish off and aliens are easy to finish off.
Marines get to tech up continually and they keep their upgrades. When the game is over, they usually lost their upgades only moments before the game ended.
Aliens, with two or three hives, are at the mercy of losing a hive and weakening the team. Marines don't have that weakened state and that is why marines will ALWAYS be stronger than aliens in the present game.
There is no way to attack and take LVL2 marines down to LVL1. Before anyone tries to suggest a targetted attack on the marine base, let me save you the trouble. A targetted attack no longer works for many reasons.
-electrified TF in the center of important buildings
-gobs of cheap and deadly turrets
-distress beacon now hauls back deal AND alive marines to base in case of attack
In other words, the marine base is untouchable until the aliens achieve 3 hives and upper level aliens.
However, the aliens don't have that same luxury.
They are at risk to lose some of their upgrades and weapons if marines pull off a suicide attack. While marines may lose much in terms of res, for marines res is not an issue with a single res pool. However, once that alien hive is down the marines have a tactical advantage over the aliens, whereas the aliens can never gain an equal tactical advantage over the marines unless they have an inexperienced comm.
Frankly I'd like to see upgrades AND hive weapons stay the entire game for aliens. If they get two hives, then they have 2 hive weapons for the rest of the game.
"What's the point of taking out hives then?" you ask...
Simple. To win the game.
A balanced game (with alien upgrades and hive weapons being persistent) would make marines become more motivated to attack hives BEFORE they finish building, instead of camping their base and the local double node saving up res for the first of many heavy trains.
This would make for a much more balanced end game instead of the horrid slippery slope and alien F4 end game that we see most of the time.
Regards,
Savant <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
But the idea that aliens lose in the long term if they just throw away themselves due to re-evolving a ton of upgrades is a balancing feature, so that the game has a nice opening to end it if the aliens have to slow of a downtime.
People need to look at the bigger picture.
The upgrades and weapons gained at each hive are already set. It's not like I am adding anything. Marines need to cope with them already and that won't change. What I am suggesting is that when aliens get a set of upgrades, or when they get a second/thrid hive that they KEEP those advancements as long as the game lasts. (they could change their upgrades by training a new set - wihch they would pay for) This would keep aliens competitive in the later game and stop marines from sitting on their behinds waiting for res to come in so they can walk the map with a heavy train.
Is anyone here trying to tell me that aliens DON'T repeatedly reach a point where they know they have lost but are forced to play or F4? With my proposal F4 wouldn't be an issue since aliens would remain conpetitive regardless of how many hives they have left.
Remember, I'm not giving the aliens anything new here, I'm just saying they should keep what they attain. It's not a big leap.
Regards,
Savant
Allowing them to keep thier upgrades, takes away from this sence of evolution. Think of it as each time you spawn you are compelely fresh (new individual or recruit) the marines keep thier upgrades because they are upgrades to thier equipment not the marine. Skulks are not viable late game because they are free the whole game. Just like vanila marines dont do well vs Onos or fade. Marine upgrades are a huge cost that pays it self off over time. Aliens are cheaper and have shorter pay offs.
Its balanced. Dont like it go play combat.
@ Savant *Edited he seemed kind of offeneded i spelt it servant*
Your logic is become less and less viable after each post. Marines do tech up continually but they tech up slower then the aliens do. Also Destress becon is extremly tactical. easy counter is to split your attacks, If they DS then hit one of the hives they have, it calls back everyone! IF they had some one getting ready to phase the hive. He is not back at base. Taking down a proto lab is not difficult. Aliens have the same opertunity to defend thier base. OC's are cheap and provide the delay get help to that area.
Marines taking down hives is for a tactical advantage, the same reason aliens want them. The aliens do not deserve the upgrades from the hive if they do not have it! If they could not hold the hive then marines have out played them. By your logic if a skulk takes out an IP the marines should still spawn from it because other wise it is unfair.
Marines suiciding to take a hive down is a tactical move. Counter attack, dont say its not fair! what next? no HA/welder trains because they are good?
@ Servant<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Two things. One, your attitude is not what we want in this forum. We don't need posts that say "if you don't like don't play." Pleease read the forum rules for more information. Two, perhaps you should read my messages before you reply. You missed my point and you missed the proper spelling of my name. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The way the aliens are set up is very logical. They adapt them selves from what they are into things that are better suited for thier enviroment/intended use. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->I don't have a problem with THAT part of it. It's the losing of those upgrades that is destroting the alien late game and making it so that people just leave in frustration ala F4. We have had this problem repeatedly though the versions and have not been able to address it. I think THIS is the way.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Allowing them to keep thier upgrades, takes away from this sence of evolution.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Not at all. Evolution is just that, an <b>evolution</b> from one form into another. When man walked out of the ocean and evolved to live on land, when he died did he walk back out of the ocean? No. He had already EVOLVED to that point so he just picked up from there. Did his children have to evolve by walking out of the ocean? No. Evolution is a progression from one form to another. You don't 'de-evolve' just because you die or create new life.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The aliens do not deserve the upgrades from the hive if they do not have it! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->I disagree in part. I think the key to getting the upgrades from a hive is to build and have the hive COMPLETE building. Once the aliens have finished building the second hive they should have those upgrades for the rest of the game.
Why is it that once a hive is fully built, and a gorge drops 3 upgrade chambers, that if the marines kill the hive that the upgrades are still available? The hive is gone so by your flawed logic the upgrade chambers should vanish too.
Just because aliens don't HAVE the hive doesn't meant they shouldn't benefit from having HAD the hive.
My point is the same as that gorge that drops those three D chambers. You don't lose those abilities (or chambers) if you lose the hive. It is easy for aliens to put those chambers in an inaccessible spot and have them the entire game. The fact is that once the marines allow the aliens to get that second hive the aliens have those upgrades. Same for the third hive.
I suggest that we take it to the next logical step and make both upgrades AND weapons consistent based on hives ATTAINED and not hives HELD. In that way marines can't sit around waiting for the next heavy train to leave the station, they will have to actually use some SKILL and go out and deal with those hives earlier on.
The game is, and always has been, a game to be won or lost by the marines. There is no incentive for marines to attack right away if they can just sandbag res nodes and then start sending out the heavy trains. My suggestion would make those cheap wins a thing of the past and require marines to use (God forbid) teamwork and tactics to pull off a win.
Maybe it's just that I want better for this game, and I'm not afraid to think of and propose new ideas. People need to learn to open their minds instead of keeping the status quo.
Regards,
Savant
@ Servant<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Two things. One, your attitude is not what we want in this forum. We don't need posts that say "if you don't like don't play." Pleease read the forum rules for more information. Two, perhaps you should read my messages before you reply. You missed my point and you missed the proper spelling of my name. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The way the aliens are set up is very logical. They adapt them selves from what they are into things that are better suited for thier enviroment/intended use. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->I don't have a problem with THAT part of it. It's the losing of those upgrades that is destroting the alien late game and making it so that people just leave in frustration ala F4. We have had this problem repeatedly though the versions and have not been able to address it. I think THIS is the way.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Allowing them to keep thier upgrades, takes away from this sence of evolution.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Not at all. Evolution is just that, an <b>evolution</b> from one form into another. When man walked out of the ocean and evolved to live on land, when he died did he walk back out of the ocean? No. He had already EVOLVED to that point so he just picked up from there. Did his children have to evolve by walking out of the ocean? No. Evolution is a progression from one form to another. You don't 'de-evolve' just because you die or create new life.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The aliens do not deserve the upgrades from the hive if they do not have it! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->I disagree in part. I think the key to getting the upgrades from a hive is to build and have the hive COMPLETE building. Once the aliens have finished building the second hive they should have those upgrades for the rest of the game.
Why is it that once a hive is fully built, and a gorge drops 3 upgrade chambers, that if the marines kill the hive that the upgrades are still available? The hive is gone so by your flawed logic the upgrade chambers should vanish too.
Just because aliens don't HAVE the hive doesn't meant they shouldn't benefit from having HAD the hive.
My point is the same as that gorge that drops those three D chambers. You don't lose those abilities (or chambers) if you lose the hive. It is easy for aliens to put those chambers in an inaccessible spot and have them the entire game. The fact is that once the marines allow the aliens to get that second hive the aliens have those upgrades. Same for the third hive.
I suggest that we take it to the next logical step and make both upgrades AND weapons consistent based on hives ATTAINED and not hives HELD. In that way marines can't sit around waiting for the next heavy train to leave the station, they will have to actually use some SKILL and go out and deal with those hives earlier on.
The game is, and always has been, a game to be won or lost by the marines. There is no incentive for marines to attack right away if they can just sandbag res nodes and then start sending out the heavy trains. My suggestion would make those cheap wins a thing of the past and require marines to use (God forbid) teamwork and tactics to pull off a win.
Maybe it's just that I want better for this game, and I'm not afraid to think of and propose new ideas. People need to learn to open their minds instead of keeping the status quo.
Regards,
Savant <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can't remember one pub I've played in for 3.0 where the aliens lose because marines camp and sandbag on res nodes. Every time I've seen the aliens do this, they lose, and for good reason.
It's because we get up 3 hives, and meanwhile you use bigger classes to take down their res.
I'm not suggesting that marines ONLY sit on res. Let me expand on what I was trying to get at.
-game starts
-marines turret up their base
-aliens don't OC up their base because it costs too much
-both teams head out of base
-marines head out to cap nodes and secure a hive
-aliens head out to cap nodes and secure a hive
-if aliens get a second hive built and marines take it down, aliens lose their upgraded weapons.
-if marines secure a hive and then the aliens take it down the marines lose NOTHING. They are still just as strong as before.
The point is that the marine team strength increases linearly, and never goes down until the game is OVER. Only in maybe one-in-50 games do I ever see marines lose upgrades before the game ends, and that was because the comm didn't protect their base.
Aliens on the other hand can't afford squat for OCs. Anyone remember 1.04 when you had to siege your way to the hive? Now you may see 2 or 3 OCs at the hive but none in between. Now it is up to the aliens to provide the defense for the hives, AND provide offense to clear marine areas AND attack the marine base.
Gimme a break.
I won't even begin to touch on the fact that marines outpower aliens on a consistent basis. (don't try and convince me otherwise, I see the stats of kills by marines and kills by aliens - that speaks for itself)
Aliens need that linear progression of skill/damage like the marines have in order to stay competitive. Without it you end up with bad balance.
If you want to play a game of hive control, then why not tie marine weapon/ammo upgrades and such into the number of hives they control. (counting marine start as one) Marines want level 2 armor? Then they need to cap an RT in a hive AND have a TF + 4 turrets and PG located there. Want that proto lab? Marines need to cap a SECOND hive and hold it.
Doesn't sound so easy now does it?
Put the shoe on the other foot for a moment and you'll see how difficult it is.
Giving aliens persisent upgrades is not the end of the world, and it will improve balance. Unless anyone can explain how this would REALISTICLY make aliens too strong... So far I have heard objections but no one has provided anything to back up their concerns other than 'this is how it is'. Since I don't propose making aliens any stronger than they already are, I don't see how this could be a bad thing.
Unless people enjoy the constant F4s that still occur.
Regards,
Savant
The word "evolution" has nothing to do here, since there really is no evolution here, scientifically speaking. It's worthless to argue whether something fits more with evolution or not.
Alien tech can be lost and depend on territory. Marine tech is much harder to lose and doesn't depend on territory. Instead of making it so that aliens can't lose their tech, make it so that marine tech also depends on territory.
It's for the sake of strategy that alien tech can lost. So it's logical to make it easier to destroy marine tech, instead of to make alien tech harder to destroy.
Why? The only reason that is the case is because Flayra decided it should be that way. He could easily have said that if you lose a hive that any chambers built on that hive (the chamber symbol beside that hive) would become 'inactive' if you lost the hive.
A better comparison is this.
A marine has an HMG, and is out killing stuff. Aliens somehow take out the adv. armory. Now does the HMG magically disappear out of his hands? No? Why not? It magically appeared out of thin air, so why doesn't it magically disappear into thin air?
Yet a similar alien who has a hive destroyed loses the weapon ability immediately. That's not balanced. Aliens are punished for something that the marines are not. Both 'lost' something but only the aliens suffer from it immediately.
An alien that attains a hive ability should no more lose that weapon if the hive is killed than a marine should lose the HMG that is in their hands when the armory is destroyed. It makes no sense whatsoever.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Alien tech can be lost and depend on territory. Marine tech is much harder to lose and doesn't depend on territory. Instead of making it so that aliens can't lose their tech, make it so that marine tech also depends on territory.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Why is it that I don't see this hapening anytime soon? I'd be for trying this, but I just don't see it happening.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's for the sake of strategy that alien tech can lost. So it's logical to make it easier to destroy marine tech, instead of to make alien tech harder to destroy. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Logical, maybe. Achievable, doubtful. The problem with making marine tech easier to lose is that it tends to be an all or nothing scenerio. Everything is all there together and if they lose one thing, they usually lose everything. I don't see how this can be changed unless marines were forced to be more decentralized.
Regards,
Savant
I read your messages, and I didnt tell you not to play, i told you to play COMBAT, which seems to suit your style of keeping upgrades! Stop asuming it was supposed to be insulting!
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Not at all. Evolution is just that, an evolution from one form into another. When man walked out of the ocean and evolved to live on land, when he died did he walk back out of the ocean? No. He had already EVOLVED to that point so he just picked up from there. Did his children have to evolve by walking out of the ocean? No. Evolution is a progression from one form to another. You don't 'de-evolve' just because you die or create new life.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The alien structure they do not have children. They spawn from a hive! They do not pass down genetic from after they have evolved so they do not keep thier evolution! Each time you spawn as a skulk think of it as fresh recruit/brandnew.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I disagree in part. I think the key to getting the upgrades from a hive is to build and have the hive COMPLETE building. Once the aliens have finished building the second hive they should have those upgrades for the rest of the game.
Why is it that once a hive is fully built, and a gorge drops 3 upgrade chambers, that if the marines kill the hive that the upgrades are still available? The hive is gone so by your flawed logic the upgrade chambers should vanish too.
Just because aliens don't HAVE the hive doesn't meant they shouldn't benefit from having HAD the hive.
My point is the same as that gorge that drops those three D chambers. You don't lose those abilities (or chambers) if you lose the hive. It is easy for aliens to put those chambers in an inaccessible spot and have them the entire game. The fact is that once the marines allow the aliens to get that second hive the aliens have those upgrades. Same for the third hive<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your logic is flawed not mine... The hive allows gorges to build the chambers right? Well once the hive is gone they cant buid them. It is the chamber that allows for upgrades not the hive. Once the chambers are destroyed then you cant upgrade. Its like if you have a crane to help build a building. After it complete the building functions as a factory. If the crane is destroyed, you no longer have the benifits of the crane, but you still have all of the benifits form the building it will continue producing what ever it was before. If the building is destoryed you lose the benifts from the building.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The game is, and always has been, a game to be won or lost by the marines. There is no incentive for marines to attack right away if they can just sandbag res nodes and then start sending out the heavy trains. My suggestion would make those cheap wins a thing of the past and require marines to use (God forbid) teamwork and tactics to pull off a win.
Maybe it's just that I want better for this game, and I'm not afraid to think of and propose new ideas. People need to learn to open their minds instead of keeping the status quo.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem is that aliens are not offensive enough, they need to prevent marine advance. If you let them take the nodes and elect them then they get the node until you have a regen fade, or a cordinated attack with gorges. You want skulks to be some sort of assualt class as soon as they spawn. Skulks are ambushers, always have been designed that way.
Many marines win by killing a hive just as it goes up. The wepons aliens get from these hives are so strong that the marines will sacrafice many lives, and lots of res to take them away from the aliens. But the aliens do not lose these wepons marines will become too strong.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm not suggesting that marines ONLY sit on res. Let me expand on what I was trying to get at.
-game starts
-marines turret up their base
-aliens don't OC up their base because it costs too much
-both teams head out of base
-marines head out to cap nodes and secure a hive
-aliens head out to cap nodes and secure a hive
-if aliens get a second hive built and marines take it down, aliens lose their upgraded weapons.
-if marines secure a hive and then the aliens take it down the marines lose NOTHING. They are still just as strong as before.
The point is that the marine team strength increases linearly, and never goes down until the game is OVER. Only in maybe one-in-50 games do I ever see marines lose upgrades before the game ends, and that was because the comm didn't protect their base.
Aliens on the other hand can't afford squat for OCs. Anyone remember 1.04 when you had to siege your way to the hive? Now you may see 2 or 3 OCs at the hive but none in between. Now it is up to the aliens to provide the defense for the hives, AND provide offense to clear marine areas AND attack the marine base<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You miss several points. Marines lose much res when aliens take down a fortified base, and they also lose tactical possition. Aliens dont always loose all thier upgrades only wepons. Aliens dont want defence in thier hive early because thier is nothing to protect in the way turrets protect marines structure. The only thing in a hive that is worth anything is the hive and the node. Maybe latter the upgrade chambers but they could be build in a vent or something. Aliens are moble and the marines more static.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A marine has an HMG, and is out killing stuff. Aliens somehow take out the adv. armory. Now does the HMG magically disappear out of his hands? No? Why not? It magically appeared out of thin air, so why doesn't it magically disappear into thin air?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Alien wepons are ablities not wepons. The hive gives them concentration/knowledge or what ever, it enable's them to use those skills. Marines get equipment, thats why marines spawn with upgrades. its the equipment not the marine him self!.
My point is that if you want to make this change, then that change should be made to the rest of alien tech tree. That is, using my previous example, if the defense chamber was destroyed, you can still evolve defense upgrades. If the hive was lost, you can still put down that hive's chamber type. This gain/loss tech of aliens is a racial theme. Themes can change, but they shouldn't be broken. Flayra wants consistency in gameplay.
My other point is that if this certain racial theme is changed, it would actually get rid of many marine strategies and ultimately make the game less strategic. IMO, strategic diversity is even more important than balance. Balancing at the cost of strategic diversity is a last resort option! There are other ways to balance.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why is it that I don't see this hapening anytime soon? I'd be for trying this, but I just don't see it happening.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No probably not soon. But your hive suggestion isn't a good alternative.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Logical, maybe. Achievable, doubtful. The problem with making marine tech easier to lose is that it tends to be an all or nothing scenerio. Everything is all there together and if they lose one thing, they usually lose everything. I don't see how this can be changed unless marines were forced to be more decentralized.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's achievable with the solution I proposed. Just destroy enough nodes. Depending on the specific implementation of res upkeep, the tech structure must/will be recycled/disabled.