<!--QuoteBegin-Quantum_Duck+Feb 13 2004, 02:48 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Quantum_Duck @ Feb 13 2004, 02:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I've always thought the shotgun was a bit too good at too many things when compared to it's cost and availability. I would like to see it toned down just a hair sometime, but it seems that the devs like it the way it is. Oh well. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Thank you, I mean <b>really</b> thank you. This, is the summation of all the points that the Anti-Shotgun People have said. And they are the exact points that none of the Pro-Shotgun People have responded to. Could we just have a discussion on this, without the "This thread has devolved into <x> and just because <y> players are good doesn't mean..."
All that needs to be done is one or more of the following: A. Force a short reasearch time to get this weapon. B. Require the Advanced Armory, but not a specific Reasearch time. C. Increase Shotgun Cost <b>AS MUCH AS IS FOUND TO BE NECESSARY.</b> D. Decrease Shotgun Efficiency <b>AS MUCH AS IS FOUND TO BE NECESSARY,</b> in terms of RoF, damage, Ammo Capacity and, drawbacks for the player.
And even with whatever mix of those, it would still be a great weapon, because it wouldn't cost as much as a HMG/GL or it wouldn't take as long to get as a HMG/GL, etc.
BTW: If the flame thrower ever makes it, the SG could become completely anti-personnel and the Flame Thrower completely anti-structure or vice versa. But that is wishful thinking.
Almost all over games have really weak shotguns because they are afriad of them becoming too powerful, when in reality a shotgun, is cheap, powerfull, and effective at close range, but thats really it, its main balancing factor is that it needs to be fired at close range, so without a jetpack you probably have 2 shots at the most to kill a skulk, maybe a few more of the other lifeforms if they are a bit slower. Anyway I think it just needs the damage of each shot (i think 8 are fired at once) reduced by 1, maybe 2
I think the shottie argument will end only when the masses start to practice shottie vs fade and realize that its the ONLY way to kill a good fade. But that'll never happen, but I can hope.
I think FF should be on by default. FF weakens marine attacks alot. i was playin on a server with it the other day and it was cool getting the marines to kill each other with shottys, hmgs just by getting close to them <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-RicHSAD+Feb 13 2004, 10:38 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (RicHSAD @ Feb 13 2004, 10:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> How about we add some kind of recoil to the shotty? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> you mean there are people who actually just hold they fire key on when using shotguns (other than hive assults)?......I wonder why skulks cant kill these kind of shotgunners.
<!--QuoteBegin-ViolenceJack+Feb 14 2004, 03:04 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ViolenceJack @ Feb 14 2004, 03:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> shottys need at least half dmg to structures.
I think FF should be on by default. FF weakens marine attacks alot. i was playin on a server with it the other day and it was cool getting the marines to kill each other with shottys, hmgs just by getting close to them <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Umm, the SG is fine in FF situations. Learn to distinguish between a marine and a fade and you'll see the number of FF kills go from "lots" to "oh good you took their RFK".
If SG deals half damage to buildings, how would you suggest marines kill buildings? GL? GL is the worst gun in the game unless there's a WoL that needs clearing. 7000hp hive would take about 15 LMG clips to kill, about 10 SG clips to kill, about 10 HMG clips to kill. About 14 GL clips to kill, about 35 siege hits to kill. Do you need me to go on?
SG is partly so good right now because of the hitbox lagging bug. I can have crappy aim and shoot behind you and you die. But also the shotgun is vital to marine play. You argue that they're so overpowered and abusive, but how often do you see comms drop them in pubs? In a scrim I would be appauled if Amelek eleced an RT instead of dropping three shotties or starting weapons two. But in a scrim the game isn't about kills, its about res. And guess what, shotguns let you defend your res a hell of a lot better than LMGs.
3.0 fades are tanks. You know how you kill a 3.0 fade? Get two or three shotgunners in the same place at the same time and block the fade. You'll probably lose a guy, but the fade will die. Problem with shotguns and fades is you tend to rip up other marines with FF. You have to watch where you aim or you could be taking chunks off of health that mean the different between two swipes and three.
Civ says, "Shotgun is fine as it is, if anything make it start to reload faster. The first pellet takes a long time to get in the gun. Trust me, its the GLs that need the boost here."
Everyone who complains that the shotgun is too good only focuses on and exaggerates its upsides, while focusing on and exaggerating the downsides of the other weapons. Not exactly an even-minded approach in the slightest. The basic fact is that the shotgun is only effective up close, and that's where a marine is most likely to get killed in relation to an alien.
Ok, enough theory, enough subjective arguments. Here is some objective data, one of my comm demo's from a scrim today against ir (one of the best clans btw).
<!--QuoteBegin-Brefl+Feb 12 2004, 08:41 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Brefl @ Feb 12 2004, 08:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Revenge+Feb 12 2004, 08:30 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Revenge @ Feb 12 2004, 08:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> A squad with a mix of HMGS and GLs will usually perform better than a squad of soley shotguns in my experience. What I'm getting at here is that the HMG and GL seem to be designed to work well with each other, each covering the other's weakness, and that in combination they become more powerful than either one of them could be alone. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> But that's the problem. I mix of HMGs and GLs costs infinately more then a squad of shotguns. Following that line of thought, they both should cost 10 since they're still an individulaized role: The shotgun is 10 because it does both roles well. The GL would be 10 because it only does one role BETTER. The HMG likewise. But they don't, so I can't see that being the sole idea.
So while a ton of HMGers and GLers might kill the hive and aliens lightning-fast, at least the commander had to back it up with a TON of resources. Shotguns, on the other hand, do not cost much. I could tolerate the 'blending' logic except for the fact that it still does so much damage. Unfortunately, reducing the damage would reduce the lethality to skulks, making it worthless.
I propose that the shotgun does both light and piercing damage. What's that mean? It means that it will no longer be an anti-everything counter. Its counters will consist of OCs (since shotguns are their main enemies), fades, and onos. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> a few cloak skulks, 2 or 3 onos, a few lerk back by some other stuff could end hmg and gl combo light marine very quick.
<!--QuoteBegin-skulk-goes-boom+Feb 14 2004, 02:36 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (skulk-goes-boom @ Feb 14 2004, 02:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Brefl+Feb 12 2004, 08:41 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Brefl @ Feb 12 2004, 08:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Revenge+Feb 12 2004, 08:30 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Revenge @ Feb 12 2004, 08:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> A squad with a mix of HMGS and GLs will usually perform better than a squad of soley shotguns in my experience. What I'm getting at here is that the HMG and GL seem to be designed to work well with each other, each covering the other's weakness, and that in combination they become more powerful than either one of them could be alone. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> But that's the problem. I mix of HMGs and GLs costs infinately more then a squad of shotguns. Following that line of thought, they both should cost 10 since they're still an individulaized role: The shotgun is 10 because it does both roles well. The GL would be 10 because it only does one role BETTER. The HMG likewise. But they don't, so I can't see that being the sole idea.
So while a ton of HMGers and GLers might kill the hive and aliens lightning-fast, at least the commander had to back it up with a TON of resources. Shotguns, on the other hand, do not cost much. I could tolerate the 'blending' logic except for the fact that it still does so much damage. Unfortunately, reducing the damage would reduce the lethality to skulks, making it worthless.
I propose that the shotgun does both light and piercing damage. What's that mean? It means that it will no longer be an anti-everything counter. Its counters will consist of OCs (since shotguns are their main enemies), fades, and onos. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> a few cloak skulks, 2 or 3 onos, a few lerk back by some other stuff could end hmg and gl combo light marine very quick. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> 2 or 3 onos? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> That's not a 'counter', that's just 'we won simply because we overpowered them, instead of actually having a REAL counter like nearly every single alien and alien upgrade has'.
Anyway, like I said, reduce the shotgun ROF. Tadah, it can no longer plow through skulks like a snowblower. Drop damage vs. structures. Tadah, it can no longer kill a hive as fast as a siege cannon, and more reliably. Drop damage done to fade, and ever more to onos. Tadah, you actually have a counter to a marine gun, and force them to upgrade, just like aliens are forced to upgrade because of marine counters.
1) It will still kill skulks, just not allow the user to decimate them by the truckload. Two skulks would be able to kill the marine, instead of there actually being a chance the marine will kill both like there is now.
2) It'll still paste fatty's nice and good.
3) It'll still be a decent anti-air weapon.
4) En masse (ie: more then two shotgunners) will be able to blow big holes in a fade, but one shotgunner will no longer be able to bring a fade to the brink of death before he dies.
5) If they have onos, your commander should be FORCE to dispense bigger weapons. Seriously, marines deserve to lose if they have an unupgraded armory and not a couple HMGs lying around. Shotguns should in no way shape or form be able to harm an onos like it can.
Skulks vs. heavy armor is like throwing popcorn at a mack truck to stop it.
Lerks are like throwing bowling balls. Sure you'll cause damage but it won't really stop it, unless you're really lucky and break the drive train.
Shotguns are like tossing a lojack deactivator at the truck. There's a chance it won't do anything, but if it works, it'll stop it instantly.
BTW: Whoever said 'THIS IS REALISM', um, buckshot has almost 0 penetration... a kevlar vest can bounce it off... I know all your knowledge of guns probably comes from Soldier Of Fortune 2, but shotguns don't blow off every limb at 20 feet... FFS if you shot someone in the head with a shotgun, there most likely wouldn't even be an exit wound, all the shot would be stuck in the 'ol braincase... but a FMJ round most likely would...
BTW: Amckern, you said your ideal hive assault is 1 HMG and 3 shotties. Thanks for proving my point that it's overpowered. I can't imagine your marines are in there knifing the hive to death, so I can probably guess, with 100% accuracy, that in this hive assault, the HMGer just camps while the shotguners blow the hive away in less then a minute.
<!--QuoteBegin-civman2+Feb 14 2004, 12:36 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (civman2 @ Feb 14 2004, 12:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If SG deals half damage to buildings, how would you suggest marines kill buildings? GL? GL is the worst gun in the game unless there's a WoL that needs clearing. 7000hp hive would take about 15 LMG clips to kill, about 10 SG clips to kill, about 10 HMG clips to kill. About 14 GL clips to kill, about 35 siege hits to kill. Do you need me to go on? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It's really only 14 LMG <b>magazines</b>, 42 shot from the shot gun (in its current state), 6 HMG magazines, and 28 shells from the GL to kill.
Slightly less than the numbers you gave, but still a lot, right?
Wrong.
This would be true if:
A. All weapons weren't upgraded -These are all unupgraded weapons. At level three, it is only 11 LMG mags, 32 shots from the shotgun, 4 mags from the HMG and 22 shells from the GL to kill. Only two weapons can kill the hive w/o needing more ammo (assuming not fending off aliens also) the GL, a late game, expensive weapon that needs to be resarched, and a cheep early game weapon. B. There was only <b>one</b> person attacking the hive. C. No one thought of seige cannons.
So to your question:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If SG deals half damage to buildings, how would you suggest marines kill buildings?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->]If SG deals half damage to buildings, how would you suggest marines kill buildings?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So, what? Let's pretend that a gorge just dropped 4 OCs outside your base.
Scenario 1 - With the 3.0 shotgun: Two marines rush out, the commander drops a couple meds, and in a clip each, and a little pistol they both kill all four OCs, and the gorge.
Scenario 2 - With the nerfed shotgun: Two marines rush out, empty a clip each into an OC and kill it. Commander spams meds but the other three OCs eat them up.
Now let's pretend that the marines just build a little turret farm, and you're attacking it with skulks.
Scenario 1 - With the 1.04 turret farms: Some skulks rush, attack the TFac blindspot, and bring it down.
Scenario 2 - With the 2.0 turret farms: Some skulks attack, get to the turret farm after half are killed by the turrets, and the rest are zapped to death.
Scenario 3 - With 3.0 turret farms: Skulks attack, and if the commander even decided they need turrets, again, some skulks die while attacking, a couple more die by electricty before even getting within range, and the last couple get off a few bites before dying.
Or maybe with lerks? A couple lerks attack, get a few bites off, retreat to heal for a while.
Or a fade. Fade attacks, slowly whittles away at the TFac, eventually kills it. Um, wait a fade is 50 res, and can't kill it without regen or a gorge, or stopping to metabolize.
So... you're saying it's not fair that alien defenses will... you know, KILL things? It's not fair that marines won't have a super-effective anti-structure hive-blasting weapon available at any time, anywhere anymore? Seeing as how anything less then a fade doesn't really have a prayer of killing a turret base without at LEAST hive two, why aren't you complaining about turrets?
Aliens have the following anti-structure tools (As in: Tools either designed to, or are very effective at killing structures)
<b>Onos gore</b> - Expensive, slow, but does dbl damage to structures, which is nice. <b>Bilebomb</b> - Gorges are as weak as origami, and bilebomb really doesn't do considerable damage. A minute of straight adreneline bilebombing might bring down a PG or an armory, but really, I've never, since 2.0, ever seen a gorge bilebomb anything besides the remains of a base (game over) or solitary resource nodes.
Marines have the following anti-structure tools:
<b>Hand Grenades</b> - Bewm. There's a long 'throw' animation, but last time I checked, the OCs weren't going anywhere. <b>Grenade Launcher</b> - Bewm^2. Low ammo and not very effective in one on one encounters with lerks/fade/onos, but is the best anti-skulk weapon available (just drop a few on your feet if your squad is being attacked. Everything dies, except you have a little scratch) <b>Siege</b> - Bewm ^ Bewm. Uncounterable (Prevention is NOT a counter you stupid dumbshits, I swear to god if you say 'well a siege is hard to set up (it's not, it only requires a couple defending marines and one guy building), it's expensive (again, it's not, three sieges can waste a hive room, and costs less then an onos... and the commander can get 70 resources for that with just a minute of saving), and takes a long time (again, not really, a TFac upgrades in about 20 seconds, and Sieges build in about 10), it's your fault' I'm going to shove an iron rod so far...) <b>Shotgun</b>
Furthermore, OCs have terrible blindspots, and can be sniped to death by an LMG. Turretfarms can't. If you can see it, it can shoot you (and will, with a vengeance).
So what are marines supposed to take down structures with? Well seeing as how aliens really have no effective anti-structure specifics or ideals until mid/late game, I don't see why marines should get an anti-structure weapon less then 15 seconds into the game.
BTW if you say that skulk rushing is anti-structure I'm going to slap your face.
To me it's not that the shotgun is so powerfull, 10 res is worth that, but when it's compared to the hmg: hmg does half-damage to structures hmg has the same accuracy as the shotgun (at medium to long range you cant even kill a sitting skulk without wasting 40 bullets) the hmg does have a bigger clip, but because it's based on spray and pray that's neglectable. I'd like to see a hmg without the half-struc-damage and with more acc, but this would make marines godawfully powerfull.
and 1 question: do turrets gain more power with gun upgrades (i think they don't wich feels wrong)
<!--QuoteBegin-seriousham+Feb 14 2004, 06:10 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (seriousham @ Feb 14 2004, 06:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> To me it's not that the shotgun is so powerfull, 10 res is worth that, but when it's compared to the hmg: hmg does half-damage to structures hmg has the same accuracy as the shotgun (at medium to long range you cant even kill a sitting skulk without wasting 40 bullets) the hmg does have a bigger clip, but because it's based on spray and pray that's neglectable. I'd like to see a hmg without the half-struc-damage and with more acc, but this would make marines godawfully powerfull. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If hmg does full dmg to structures then the problems of 1.04 will come back. A single hmger can take out a hive by himself from a vent or some ridiculous map situation where the hive is open to a long corridor.
<!--QuoteBegin-Brefl+Feb 14 2004, 04:27 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Brefl @ Feb 14 2004, 04:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <b>Hand Grenades</b> - Bewm. There's a long 'throw' animation, but last time I checked, the OCs weren't going anywhere. <b>Grenade Launcher</b> - Bewm^2. Low ammo and not very effective in one on one encounters with lerks/fade/onos, but is the best anti-skulk weapon available (just drop a few on your feet if your squad is being attacked. Everything dies, except you have a little scratch) <b>Siege</b> - Bewm ^ Bewm. Uncounterable (Prevention is NOT a counter you stupid dumbshits, I swear to god if you say 'well a siege is hard to set up (it's not, it only requires a couple defending marines and one guy building), it's expensive (again, it's not, three sieges can waste a hive room, and costs less then an onos... and the commander can get 70 resources for that with just a minute of saving), and takes a long time (again, not really, a TFac upgrades in about 20 seconds, and Sieges build in about 10), it's your fault' I'm going to shove an iron rod so far...) <b>Shotgun</b> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Hand Grenades - Not anti structure. You get one and it deals 100. Please. This is not anti-OC.
Grenade Lancher - Super expensive.
Siege - Super expensive
Shotgun - Only cheap thing avalible to marines that can buildings fast.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Feb 14 2004, 02:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Feb 14 2004, 02:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hand Grenades - Not anti structure. You get one and it deals 100. Please. This is not anti-OC.
Grenade Lancher - Super expensive.
Siege - Super expensive
Shotgun - Only cheap thing avalible to marines that can buildings fast.
As you were saying?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> 100 damage from one nade? Make that five and the OC's are at 50% health, and any gorges around will be either dead or running away.
GL...super...expensive? Maybe if you'd buy one for each marine. Funny also that I didn't see anyone mention that the marines can *gasp* pick up the weapons from their dead teammates. Of course it's not always possible, but still useful.
Siege does cost a good bit. But that doesn't seem to slow the marines down - at the very least ~50% or more of the hive kills that I have witnessed during the 3.0 beta were done with siege turrets. That's just sad.
Shotgun. Powerful. Cheap (possibly not only cost-wise) . If a marine can use it, it will be a profitable investment, thanks to RFK... I prefer it above any other weapon in the marine arsenal. Sometimes, if the com drops HA/HMG, without giving shotties even when asked to, I'll just pass and go knife some RT's.
<!--QuoteBegin-Align+Feb 14 2004, 09:24 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Align @ Feb 14 2004, 09:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Feb 14 2004, 04:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Feb 14 2004, 04:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> [snipped out text] Shotgun - Only cheap thing avalible to marines that can buildings fast.
As you were saying? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I thought you were AGAINST "shotgun=overpowered"? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I am. And this justifies it, nerf the shotty you will totally nerf the marines into nerfdom.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->100 damage from one nade? Make that five and the OC's are at 50% health, and any gorges around will be either dead or running away.
GL...super...expensive? Maybe if you'd buy one for each marine. Funny also that I didn't see anyone mention that the marines can *gasp* pick up the weapons from their dead teammates. Of course it's not always possible, but still useful.
Siege does cost a good bit. But that doesn't seem to slow the marines down - at the very least ~50% or more of the hive kills that I have witnessed during the 3.0 beta were done with siege turrets. That's just sad.
Shotgun. Powerful. Cheap (possibly not only cost-wise) . If a marine can use it, it will be a profitable investment, thanks to RFK... I prefer it above any other weapon in the marine arsenal. Sometimes, if the com drops HA/HMG, without giving shotties even when asked to, I'll just pass and go knife some RT's.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So 5 marines all using their one shot nades is effective? rriiiiigghhhhtttt.... Just use your LMG's 500 dmg per clip is a lot more effective than that.
GL's are expensive. Not only are they top teir tech, but they cost 20 res. GL's are super expensive, in fact.
Siege is expensive. I'm glad we can see eye to eye on this. Chances are if you can be afforded to be sieged out, you deserved to lose in the first place.
I like the shotty due to it's versitility, but if I only had to kill lifeforms, I'd take the HMG. Likewise, if I wanted to kill only structures, I'd take the GL.
If I had to kill an onos, I'd take the HMG no matter what, using a shotgun to an onos is just about suicide.
<!--QuoteBegin-CutterJoe+Feb 12 2004, 11:24 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CutterJoe @ Feb 12 2004, 11:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Someones gotten killed by the shotgun a few times huh? Nah its no where near overpowered. Its just a really powerful weapon in the right hands. 8 bullets and the reload time balances it out. Besides a good leap/bite skulk takes a good shotgunner to school any day of the week and twice on friday so its all good. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> no they don't....
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Feb 14 2004, 10:39 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Feb 14 2004, 10:39 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Siege is expensive. I'm glad we can see eye to eye on this. Chances are if you can be afforded to be sieged out, you deserved to lose in the first place. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Stupidest thing I've ever heard. If the marines have 3 or 4 nodes, with 7 players on their team, they can get the 70 res for a siege in about a minute. And that's with three siege cannons. Even two would suffice. It'd be sorta slow, but it would still demoralize the aliens, and put a serious dent in the hive. So shave off 15 resources and reduce the time to 4/5ths that. Furthermore, your marines defending are going to be racking in res for kills. Aliens with even 6 nodes will not get anything that effective in anywhere near as little time. If you think siege is expensive, hard to set up, anything, then you're either lying just to try to prove a point and be an ****, or you like the marines being overpowered. I've never been in a game, winning or losing, where we've been at less then 20 res constantly. If you are constantly poor, even in a losing match, then your commander needs to learn economics again, because res for kills and two or three nodes is plenty to keep your front up.
Game on veil: We're holding marine spawn node, and about three others. We sieged... about 13 times. We'd take nodes, then we'd lose them, and siege it down again. We didn't have half the nodes. We had less then half the nodes. We'd siege them out of nanogrid and take it, then the onos would come, kill the PG, take it down, a gorge would build it up again, we'd kill the onos, siege down the defenses, take it again, the extra res for the aliens gave enough for more onos... all from less then half the nodes, sometimes only from two nodes.
Finally, you <b>completely and TOTALLY failed</b>, (probably intentionally), to address the issue that <b>aliens can not kill marine defenses early game, so why should marines?</b> So you claim siege bases aren't worth it? So the grenade launcher is expensive? It's near top-tier tech? Wow, why don't you play aliens for once you narrowminded ****, maybe you'd realize that a turret farm of 70 resources will completely and utterly deny an area for the aliens until they can get a 50 res fade (LOOK! HIGH-TIER TECH! But that's okay, because... it's aliens, and if the aliens lose, it's because they suck too much, right?), with 30 res of upgrades, or, since you have 3 upgrade choices, it could even be up to an aditional 160 resources for upgrade chambers and hives (M-S-D, S-M-D. A fade without defensive upgrades will require multiple healing trips to kill a turret farm). Ah well, do I expect logic and reasonable discussion from someone whose posts consistantly and repeatedly encourage such enlightening and thoughtful debate as:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->you are completely wrong<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->find a better team<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I've played a lot of NS, and let me tell you, those 'epic' games are actually just this: - Everyone completely sucks at this game<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The JP really isn't that overpowered<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->sucks<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->owns<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->sucks<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->sucked<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->owns<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->suck<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->owns<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seriously, your posts are a joke. For one, everything you say has to be 100% absolute. Oh, so your hive got killed by a shotgun jetpacker? Then <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->your team sucked<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> and <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->you deserved to lose<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->. I've yet to actually see you post ANYTHING and back it up with a statement deeper then sarcasm, flaming, and bragging about how your clan is so much better then anyone else. Furthermore, every post on balance heavilly favors marines. Seriously, you're the first person I've seen since 2.0 was released who can actually say the jetpack is balanced, and more shockingly, say, that it's balanced but don't actually mention how or why (not that I'd want to know, you'd just say that a leaping parasite skulk can kill every jetpacker easilly) Interesting tidbit from your posts. - First you say that the combat spawn system owns. - Then, in the same day, you say that if you get spawncamped you deserve to lose. - Then, the next day, you say that the spawn system owns AGAIN. - And in the same day, you complain about spawncamping!
Heh I just realized you were in #cri... I always thought that MLNS tag was your clan. Well, that explains a lot. Hell, if I knew you were in #cri to begin with I wouldn't even have wasted my time posting that, I'd have just pointed to your tag for all the reason in the world that you're full of crap.
<!--QuoteBegin-Last.+Feb 14 2004, 01:27 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Last. @ Feb 14 2004, 01:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Hi my name is brefl.
You are wrong, i am right.
blah blah blah
the end! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> euh... i think his post was well constructed.
Comments
Thank you, I mean <b>really</b> thank you. This, is the summation of all the points that the Anti-Shotgun People have said. And they are the exact points that none of the Pro-Shotgun People have responded to. Could we just have a discussion on this, without the "This thread has devolved into <x> and just because <y> players are good doesn't mean..."
All that needs to be done is one or more of the following:
A. Force a short reasearch time to get this weapon.
B. Require the Advanced Armory, but not a specific Reasearch time.
C. Increase Shotgun Cost <b>AS MUCH AS IS FOUND TO BE NECESSARY.</b>
D. Decrease Shotgun Efficiency <b>AS MUCH AS IS FOUND TO BE NECESSARY,</b> in terms of RoF, damage, Ammo Capacity and, drawbacks for the player.
And even with whatever mix of those, it would still be a great weapon, because it wouldn't cost as much as a HMG/GL or it wouldn't take as long to get as a HMG/GL, etc.
BTW: If the flame thrower ever makes it, the SG could become completely anti-personnel and the Flame Thrower completely anti-structure or vice versa. But that is wishful thinking.
I think FF should be on by default. FF weakens marine attacks alot. i was playin on a server with it the other day and it was cool getting the marines to kill each other with shottys, hmgs just by getting close to them <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
you mean there are people who actually just hold they fire key on when using shotguns (other than hive assults)?......I wonder why skulks cant kill these kind of shotgunners.
I think FF should be on by default. FF weakens marine attacks alot. i was playin on a server with it the other day and it was cool getting the marines to kill each other with shottys, hmgs just by getting close to them <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Umm, the SG is fine in FF situations. Learn to distinguish between a marine and a fade and you'll see the number of FF kills go from "lots" to "oh good you took their RFK".
If SG deals half damage to buildings, how would you suggest marines kill buildings? GL? GL is the worst gun in the game unless there's a WoL that needs clearing. 7000hp hive would take about 15 LMG clips to kill, about 10 SG clips to kill, about 10 HMG clips to kill. About 14 GL clips to kill, about 35 siege hits to kill. Do you need me to go on?
SG is partly so good right now because of the hitbox lagging bug. I can have crappy aim and shoot behind you and you die. But also the shotgun is vital to marine play. You argue that they're so overpowered and abusive, but how often do you see comms drop them in pubs? In a scrim I would be appauled if Amelek eleced an RT instead of dropping three shotties or starting weapons two. But in a scrim the game isn't about kills, its about res. And guess what, shotguns let you defend your res a hell of a lot better than LMGs.
3.0 fades are tanks. You know how you kill a 3.0 fade? Get two or three shotgunners in the same place at the same time and block the fade. You'll probably lose a guy, but the fade will die. Problem with shotguns and fades is you tend to rip up other marines with FF. You have to watch where you aim or you could be taking chunks off of health that mean the different between two swipes and three.
Civ says, "Shotgun is fine as it is, if anything make it start to reload faster. The first pellet takes a long time to get in the gun. Trust me, its the GLs that need the boost here."
<a href='http://www.eplixstudio.com/exoity/intec1.zip' target='_blank'>http://www.eplixstudio.com/exoity/intec1.zip</a>
Btw, this is NS 2.01 eclipse
But that's the problem. I mix of HMGs and GLs costs infinately more then a squad of shotguns. Following that line of thought, they both should cost 10 since they're still an individulaized role: The shotgun is 10 because it does both roles well. The GL would be 10 because it only does one role BETTER. The HMG likewise. But they don't, so I can't see that being the sole idea.
So while a ton of HMGers and GLers might kill the hive and aliens lightning-fast, at least the commander had to back it up with a TON of resources. Shotguns, on the other hand, do not cost much. I could tolerate the 'blending' logic except for the fact that it still does so much damage. Unfortunately, reducing the damage would reduce the lethality to skulks, making it worthless.
I propose that the shotgun does both light and piercing damage. What's that mean? It means that it will no longer be an anti-everything counter. Its counters will consist of OCs (since shotguns are their main enemies), fades, and onos. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
a few cloak skulks, 2 or 3 onos, a few lerk back by some other stuff could end hmg and gl combo light marine very quick.
But that's the problem. I mix of HMGs and GLs costs infinately more then a squad of shotguns. Following that line of thought, they both should cost 10 since they're still an individulaized role: The shotgun is 10 because it does both roles well. The GL would be 10 because it only does one role BETTER. The HMG likewise. But they don't, so I can't see that being the sole idea.
So while a ton of HMGers and GLers might kill the hive and aliens lightning-fast, at least the commander had to back it up with a TON of resources. Shotguns, on the other hand, do not cost much. I could tolerate the 'blending' logic except for the fact that it still does so much damage. Unfortunately, reducing the damage would reduce the lethality to skulks, making it worthless.
I propose that the shotgun does both light and piercing damage. What's that mean? It means that it will no longer be an anti-everything counter. Its counters will consist of OCs (since shotguns are their main enemies), fades, and onos. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
a few cloak skulks, 2 or 3 onos, a few lerk back by some other stuff could end hmg and gl combo light marine very quick. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
2 or 3 onos? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> That's not a 'counter', that's just 'we won simply because we overpowered them, instead of actually having a REAL counter like nearly every single alien and alien upgrade has'.
Anyway, like I said, reduce the shotgun ROF. Tadah, it can no longer plow through skulks like a snowblower. Drop damage vs. structures. Tadah, it can no longer kill a hive as fast as a siege cannon, and more reliably. Drop damage done to fade, and ever more to onos. Tadah, you actually have a counter to a marine gun, and force them to upgrade, just like aliens are forced to upgrade because of marine counters.
1) It will still kill skulks, just not allow the user to decimate them by the truckload. Two skulks would be able to kill the marine, instead of there actually being a chance the marine will kill both like there is now.
2) It'll still paste fatty's nice and good.
3) It'll still be a decent anti-air weapon.
4) En masse (ie: more then two shotgunners) will be able to blow big holes in a fade, but one shotgunner will no longer be able to bring a fade to the brink of death before he dies.
5) If they have onos, your commander should be FORCE to dispense bigger weapons. Seriously, marines deserve to lose if they have an unupgraded armory and not a couple HMGs lying around. Shotguns should in no way shape or form be able to harm an onos like it can.
Skulks vs. heavy armor is like throwing popcorn at a mack truck to stop it.
Lerks are like throwing bowling balls. Sure you'll cause damage but it won't really stop it, unless you're really lucky and break the drive train.
Shotguns are like tossing a lojack deactivator at the truck. There's a chance it won't do anything, but if it works, it'll stop it instantly.
BTW: Whoever said 'THIS IS REALISM', um, buckshot has almost 0 penetration... a kevlar vest can bounce it off... I know all your knowledge of guns probably comes from Soldier Of Fortune 2, but shotguns don't blow off every limb at 20 feet... FFS if you shot someone in the head with a shotgun, there most likely wouldn't even be an exit wound, all the shot would be stuck in the 'ol braincase... but a FMJ round most likely would...
BTW: Amckern, you said your ideal hive assault is 1 HMG and 3 shotties. Thanks for proving my point that it's overpowered. I can't imagine your marines are in there knifing the hive to death, so I can probably guess, with 100% accuracy, that in this hive assault, the HMGer just camps while the shotguners blow the hive away in less then a minute.
It's really only 14 LMG <b>magazines</b>, 42 shot from the shot gun (in its current state), 6 HMG magazines, and 28 shells from the GL to kill.
Slightly less than the numbers you gave, but still a lot, right?
Wrong.
This would be true if:
A. All weapons weren't upgraded
-These are all unupgraded weapons. At level three, it is only 11 LMG mags, 32 shots from the shotgun, 4 mags from the HMG and 22 shells from the GL to kill. Only two weapons can kill the hive w/o needing more ammo (assuming not fending off aliens also) the GL, a late game, expensive weapon that needs to be resarched, and a cheep early game weapon.
B. There was only <b>one</b> person attacking the hive.
C. No one thought of seige cannons.
So to your question:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If SG deals half damage to buildings, how would you suggest marines kill buildings?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
With teamwork, thats how.
So, what? Let's pretend that a gorge just dropped 4 OCs outside your base.
Scenario 1 - With the 3.0 shotgun: Two marines rush out, the commander drops a couple meds, and in a clip each, and a little pistol they both kill all four OCs, and the gorge.
Scenario 2 - With the nerfed shotgun: Two marines rush out, empty a clip each into an OC and kill it. Commander spams meds but the other three OCs eat them up.
Now let's pretend that the marines just build a little turret farm, and you're attacking it with skulks.
Scenario 1 - With the 1.04 turret farms: Some skulks rush, attack the TFac blindspot, and bring it down.
Scenario 2 - With the 2.0 turret farms: Some skulks attack, get to the turret farm after half are killed by the turrets, and the rest are zapped to death.
Scenario 3 - With 3.0 turret farms: Skulks attack, and if the commander even decided they need turrets, again, some skulks die while attacking, a couple more die by electricty before even getting within range, and the last couple get off a few bites before dying.
Or maybe with lerks? A couple lerks attack, get a few bites off, retreat to heal for a while.
Or a fade. Fade attacks, slowly whittles away at the TFac, eventually kills it. Um, wait a fade is 50 res, and can't kill it without regen or a gorge, or stopping to metabolize.
So... you're saying it's not fair that alien defenses will... you know, KILL things? It's not fair that marines won't have a super-effective anti-structure hive-blasting weapon available at any time, anywhere anymore? Seeing as how anything less then a fade doesn't really have a prayer of killing a turret base without at LEAST hive two, why aren't you complaining about turrets?
Aliens have the following anti-structure tools (As in: Tools either designed to, or are very effective at killing structures)
<b>Onos gore</b> - Expensive, slow, but does dbl damage to structures, which is nice.
<b>Bilebomb</b> - Gorges are as weak as origami, and bilebomb really doesn't do considerable damage. A minute of straight adreneline bilebombing might bring down a PG or an armory, but really, I've never, since 2.0, ever seen a gorge bilebomb anything besides the remains of a base (game over) or solitary resource nodes.
Marines have the following anti-structure tools:
<b>Hand Grenades</b> - Bewm. There's a long 'throw' animation, but last time I checked, the OCs weren't going anywhere.
<b>Grenade Launcher</b> - Bewm^2. Low ammo and not very effective in one on one encounters with lerks/fade/onos, but is the best anti-skulk weapon available (just drop a few on your feet if your squad is being attacked. Everything dies, except you have a little scratch)
<b>Siege</b> - Bewm ^ Bewm. Uncounterable (Prevention is NOT a counter you stupid dumbshits, I swear to god if you say 'well a siege is hard to set up (it's not, it only requires a couple defending marines and one guy building), it's expensive (again, it's not, three sieges can waste a hive room, and costs less then an onos... and the commander can get 70 resources for that with just a minute of saving), and takes a long time (again, not really, a TFac upgrades in about 20 seconds, and Sieges build in about 10), it's your fault' I'm going to shove an iron rod so far...)
<b>Shotgun</b>
Furthermore, OCs have terrible blindspots, and can be sniped to death by an LMG. Turretfarms can't. If you can see it, it can shoot you (and will, with a vengeance).
So what are marines supposed to take down structures with? Well seeing as how aliens really have no effective anti-structure specifics or ideals until mid/late game, I don't see why marines should get an anti-structure weapon less then 15 seconds into the game.
BTW if you say that skulk rushing is anti-structure I'm going to slap your face.
but when it's compared to the hmg:
hmg does half-damage to structures
hmg has the same accuracy as the shotgun
(at medium to long range you cant even kill a sitting skulk without wasting 40 bullets)
the hmg does have a bigger clip, but because it's based on spray and pray that's neglectable.
I'd like to see a hmg without the half-struc-damage and with more acc, but this would make marines godawfully powerfull.
and 1 question: do turrets gain more power with gun upgrades (i think they don't wich feels wrong)
but when it's compared to the hmg:
hmg does half-damage to structures
hmg has the same accuracy as the shotgun
(at medium to long range you cant even kill a sitting skulk without wasting 40 bullets)
the hmg does have a bigger clip, but because it's based on spray and pray that's neglectable.
I'd like to see a hmg without the half-struc-damage and with more acc, but this would make marines godawfully powerfull.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
If hmg does full dmg to structures then the problems of 1.04 will come back. A single hmger can take out a hive by himself from a vent or some ridiculous map situation where the hive is open to a long corridor.
<b>Grenade Launcher</b> - Bewm^2. Low ammo and not very effective in one on one encounters with lerks/fade/onos, but is the best anti-skulk weapon available (just drop a few on your feet if your squad is being attacked. Everything dies, except you have a little scratch)
<b>Siege</b> - Bewm ^ Bewm. Uncounterable (Prevention is NOT a counter you stupid dumbshits, I swear to god if you say 'well a siege is hard to set up (it's not, it only requires a couple defending marines and one guy building), it's expensive (again, it's not, three sieges can waste a hive room, and costs less then an onos... and the commander can get 70 resources for that with just a minute of saving), and takes a long time (again, not really, a TFac upgrades in about 20 seconds, and Sieges build in about 10), it's your fault' I'm going to shove an iron rod so far...)
<b>Shotgun</b> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hand Grenades - Not anti structure. You get one and it deals 100. Please. This is not anti-OC.
Grenade Lancher - Super expensive.
Siege - Super expensive
Shotgun - Only cheap thing avalible to marines that can buildings fast.
As you were saying?
Shotgun - Only cheap thing avalible to marines that can buildings fast.
As you were saying? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I thought you were AGAINST "shotgun=overpowered"?
Grenade Lancher - Super expensive.
Siege - Super expensive
Shotgun - Only cheap thing avalible to marines that can buildings fast.
As you were saying?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
100 damage from one nade? Make that five and the OC's are at 50% health, and any gorges around will be either dead or running away.
GL...super...expensive? Maybe if you'd buy one for each marine. Funny also that I didn't see anyone mention that the marines can *gasp* pick up the weapons from their dead teammates. Of course it's not always possible, but still useful.
Siege does cost a good bit. But that doesn't seem to slow the marines down - at the very least ~50% or more of the hive kills that I have witnessed during the 3.0 beta were done with siege turrets. That's just sad.
Shotgun. Powerful. Cheap (possibly not only cost-wise) . If a marine can use it, it will be a profitable investment, thanks to RFK... I prefer it above any other weapon in the marine arsenal. Sometimes, if the com drops HA/HMG, without giving shotties even when asked to, I'll just pass and go knife some RT's.
Shotgun - Only cheap thing avalible to marines that can buildings fast.
As you were saying? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I thought you were AGAINST "shotgun=overpowered"? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am. And this justifies it, nerf the shotty you will totally nerf the marines into nerfdom.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->100 damage from one nade? Make that five and the OC's are at 50% health, and any gorges around will be either dead or running away.
GL...super...expensive? Maybe if you'd buy one for each marine. Funny also that I didn't see anyone mention that the marines can *gasp* pick up the weapons from their dead teammates. Of course it's not always possible, but still useful.
Siege does cost a good bit. But that doesn't seem to slow the marines down - at the very least ~50% or more of the hive kills that I have witnessed during the 3.0 beta were done with siege turrets. That's just sad.
Shotgun. Powerful. Cheap (possibly not only cost-wise) . If a marine can use it, it will be a profitable investment, thanks to RFK... I prefer it above any other weapon in the marine arsenal. Sometimes, if the com drops HA/HMG, without giving shotties even when asked to, I'll just pass and go knife some RT's.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So 5 marines all using their one shot nades is effective? rriiiiigghhhhtttt.... Just use your LMG's 500 dmg per clip is a lot more effective than that.
GL's are expensive. Not only are they top teir tech, but they cost 20 res. GL's are super expensive, in fact.
Siege is expensive. I'm glad we can see eye to eye on this. Chances are if you can be afforded to be sieged out, you deserved to lose in the first place.
I like the shotty due to it's versitility, but if I only had to kill lifeforms, I'd take the HMG. Likewise, if I wanted to kill only structures, I'd take the GL.
If I had to kill an onos, I'd take the HMG no matter what, using a shotgun to an onos is just about suicide.
no they don't....
shotgun is good...
stop your nub ceak complaining
Stupidest thing I've ever heard. If the marines have 3 or 4 nodes, with 7 players on their team, they can get the 70 res for a siege in about a minute. And that's with three siege cannons. Even two would suffice. It'd be sorta slow, but it would still demoralize the aliens, and put a serious dent in the hive. So shave off 15 resources and reduce the time to 4/5ths that. Furthermore, your marines defending are going to be racking in res for kills. Aliens with even 6 nodes will not get anything that effective in anywhere near as little time. If you think siege is expensive, hard to set up, anything, then you're either lying just to try to prove a point and be an ****, or you like the marines being overpowered. I've never been in a game, winning or losing, where we've been at less then 20 res constantly. If you are constantly poor, even in a losing match, then your commander needs to learn economics again, because res for kills and two or three nodes is plenty to keep your front up.
Game on veil: We're holding marine spawn node, and about three others. We sieged... about 13 times. We'd take nodes, then we'd lose them, and siege it down again. We didn't have half the nodes. We had less then half the nodes. We'd siege them out of nanogrid and take it, then the onos would come, kill the PG, take it down, a gorge would build it up again, we'd kill the onos, siege down the defenses, take it again, the extra res for the aliens gave enough for more onos... all from less then half the nodes, sometimes only from two nodes.
Finally, you <b>completely and TOTALLY failed</b>, (probably intentionally), to address the issue that <b>aliens can not kill marine defenses early game, so why should marines?</b> So you claim siege bases aren't worth it? So the grenade launcher is expensive? It's near top-tier tech? Wow, why don't you play aliens for once you narrowminded ****, maybe you'd realize that a turret farm of 70 resources will completely and utterly deny an area for the aliens until they can get a 50 res fade (LOOK! HIGH-TIER TECH! But that's okay, because... it's aliens, and if the aliens lose, it's because they suck too much, right?), with 30 res of upgrades, or, since you have 3 upgrade choices, it could even be up to an aditional 160 resources for upgrade chambers and hives (M-S-D, S-M-D. A fade without defensive upgrades will require multiple healing trips to kill a turret farm).
Ah well, do I expect logic and reasonable discussion from someone whose posts consistantly and repeatedly encourage such enlightening and thoughtful debate as:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->you are completely wrong<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->find a better team<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I've played a lot of NS, and let me tell you, those 'epic' games are actually just this:
- Everyone completely sucks at this game<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The JP really isn't that overpowered<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->sucks<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->owns<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->sucks<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->sucked<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->owns<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->suck<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->owns<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seriously, your posts are a joke. For one, everything you say has to be 100% absolute. Oh, so your hive got killed by a shotgun jetpacker? Then <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->your team sucked<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> and <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->you deserved to lose<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->. I've yet to actually see you post ANYTHING and back it up with a statement deeper then sarcasm, flaming, and bragging about how your clan is so much better then anyone else. Furthermore, every post on balance heavilly favors marines. Seriously, you're the first person I've seen since 2.0 was released who can actually say the jetpack is balanced, and more shockingly, say, that it's balanced but don't actually mention how or why (not that I'd want to know, you'd just say that a leaping parasite skulk can kill every jetpacker easilly)
Interesting tidbit from your posts.
- First you say that the combat spawn system owns.
- Then, in the same day, you say that if you get spawncamped you deserve to lose.
- Then, the next day, you say that the spawn system owns AGAIN.
- And in the same day, you complain about spawncamping!
Heh I just realized you were in #cri... I always thought that MLNS tag was your clan. Well, that explains a lot. Hell, if I knew you were in #cri to begin with I wouldn't even have wasted my time posting that, I'd have just pointed to your tag for all the reason in the world that you're full of crap.
You are wrong, i am right.
blah blah blah
the end!
You are wrong, i am right.
blah blah blah
the end! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
euh... i think his post was well constructed.
Backed by arguments, not random nonsense