Respawn Time

Lun4ticLun4tic Join Date: 2003-08-06 Member: 19125Members
edited February 2004 in NS General Discussion
<div class="IPBDescription">*Following Discussion Rules</div> Nemesis said come here, so I came here. Maybe there's some genuine feedback here.

Anyways, I complained about it in my other post, and I'm trying not to complain as much in this post. The sequence of events are as follows in the last game I played (co_pulse).

1. Join game as marines six minutes in. Marines lose.
2. Game restarts, and I join marines again.
3. Game starts, and marines <i>kinda</i> group up and go after the hive.
4. I was in the back of the group of four. Two skulks come around the corner and attack. I try to fire at them, but the other marines step in the way.
5. The skulks wipe out the first marine before we can kill them. Another skulk jumps out from around the corner and kills another marine.
6. We reach the hive, and its empty. (Wow, I wonder where they are.)
7. We begin destroying the hive when we get spawned on by three skulks, and end up dead.
8. I respawn back at the hive and the skulks rush us. They jump off walls, rush around corners when backs are turned, and kill about half us off.
9. Before the people can respawn again they rush again killing the rest of us off. It was about 8v5.
10. One person respawns.
11. He gets killed.
12. Another person spawns.
13. He gets killed too.
14. Another person spawns.
15. He gets killed too.
16. Etcetera.

That was at about 2:30. Some of us had shotguns, but it wasn't enough. To successfully defend our hive we would have needed to spawn all together, or in groups. Of course we didn't, we spawned one at a time and got jumped and slaughtered.

The game ended at around 3:15, and the next game ended around 2:00 because we got owned even worse. All the aliens think told us it isn't the game, it's us; and that we suck, we are the ones that lose the game. That's not the truth at all, there isn't anything we can do when we spawn one at a time.

Obviously aliens in movie rush uncontrolably and massively, but this isn't a movie; and unless one of us can be some sort of hero that doesn't die, then we need to stray from the movie stereotype a bit. Just lower our spawn time, and the game won't be as bad.

I'll try and include a demo in my next post.

Comments

  • CxwfCxwf Join Date: 2003-02-05 Member: 13168Members, Constellation
    First of all, you talk is if you are both a Marine and an Alien at the same time. Last I checked, Marines didn't spawn in a Hive.

    2nd: Your loss in the first big battle was due to a skill difference, and nothing more.

    3rd: Your loss back at what I assume was Marine spawn was apparently due to the significant difference in teamsize, which the respawn system can't do anything about.

    4th: Once 8 skulks are inside your base with no marines alive, you should lose. If the game is rebalanced so you don't lose in a position like that, CO games never end and we have stalemates.
  • Lun4ticLun4tic Join Date: 2003-08-06 Member: 19125Members
    Yes, I've been in both positions, and what does spawning in a hive have to do with anything? Marines don't spawn in anything, they just drop from mid air. Thank you for that useless remark.

    The first battle I was in for half a minute before it ended, I had nothing to do with that. The second battle shouldn't rely on team size for spawning more then one marine.

    They should have it so half the marines put in the spawn queue(sp?) spawn at the same time. Or the next three marines or four marines spawn so they aren't unfairly slaughtered. There isn't any use in playing when you have these speedy skulks waiting for you to spawn. If we camped their hive, they'd immediatly spawn on us and quickly destroy us all. Why? Because they create a lot of confusion, something marines don't create at all.

    It probably does have a little to do with skill, but it shouldn't rely so much on it that it costs us the game within two minutes. Ever since the last patch games lasted for more then six minutes.

    Nobody here understands this situation. Why? I don't know, I guess they don't play Combat enough. We should just revert to version two until they can get version three fairly more balanced.
  • CxwfCxwf Join Date: 2003-02-05 Member: 13168Members, Constellation
    edited February 2004
    <!--QuoteBegin-Lun4tic+Feb 16 2004, 05:41 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lun4tic @ Feb 16 2004, 05:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 8. I respawn back at the hive and the skulks rush us. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    You said it, not me...

    But you seem to assume that Marines can't spawncamp. I assure you, they can and they do. Marine spawncamping is exactly as easy in CO as in NSC, while Aliens actually have a harder time spawncamping due to the fact that you can't predict that the Marines will spawn in conveniently located on top of the IPs.

    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It probably does have a little to do with skill, but it shouldn't rely so much on it that it costs us the game within two minutes.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Are you honestly attempting to claim that the game should be LESS skill based? Isn't that the whole point of competition? To see who has more skill? A 2 minute game is good for you, because that way, even though you got thouroughly wiped out, you can more quickly start over and try again and maybe do better the second time, rather than spending 6 or 10 minutes knowing you will lose and just awaiting the inevitable.
  • AkfekaAkfeka Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 6991Members
    I think people are wasting time attacking typos rather than addressing the issue at hand.

    I agree more or less with this post. In a smaller games (which I enjoy more than games running 10 vs 10) players spawn individually. This means that realistically 2 good skulks can kill any marine as they spawn in one at a time, not to mention the rest of the alien team when they arrive in marine spawn.

    The quickest solution would be to just make the minimum spawn two players at a time, and it would do <i>wonders</i> to alleviate one or two players locking down an entire team.

    Another solution, would be to make mappers put the spawn and hive location in two separate locations. I'm not so big on this one, as a player or two could simply camp the spawn while waiting for the rest of their team to kill the hive/cc.


    Also, in a lot of cases, the game shows a definate preference to a certain spawn location when there is only 1 person spawning.

    Another also: I experience getting camped far more as a marine than as an alien, probably because when a marine dies, it takes him 20-30 seconds to hit the hive. When a skulk dies, it takes him 10-20 seconds to hit marine spawn, less if he buys celerity.

    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->4th: Once 8 skulks are inside your base with no marines alive, you should lose. If the game is rebalanced so you don't lose in a position like that, CO games never end and we have stalemates.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I should hope that in any game I play, at least a few of those players have upgraded past skulk. Games should be short, but at the same time, if I don't get past level 2 or 3 (1 - 2 points) I don't really feel like it was worth my time to play.


    Finally, the current system encourages hanging out in your team's spawn rather than attacking. It is very possible to send a chunk of your team out to have some fun - they are all, or mostly killed in an ambush, while the rest of the enemy team reaches your spawn. Your team gets spawn camped, while the rest of your team either rushes back, or rushes to the enemy spawn, often dying in the process.
  • Lun4ticLun4tic Join Date: 2003-08-06 Member: 19125Members
    Hm...

    Well it seems at the starts most marines venture out to find themselves some kills. Their confidence gets them killed most of the time. Skulks can come from anywhere; up, down, left, right, and to watch all these directions would leave open the rest of them. So it's hard to make sure a skulk isn't sneaking up on you at all times. This is why most marines get killed.

    If I were to stay back at base, no doubt I might be able to defend it better, but I'm not a perfect shot, and some of these skulks have a lot of skill when it comes to evading, and some know you don't have to be touching them to bite them.

    My point is that I can't keep control on the marines, and even they can't keep tabs on every direction they might be attacked from. Luckily for a skilled marine they have the firepower and aim to overcome a rampant skulk. Or if you're not skilled, you might have a long hallway between you and the skulk.

    After they've scattered and gotten killed, the skulks quickly make their way to the chair and cause chaos and confusion in the spawn. They are fast, hard to hit, and numerous. I couldn't ask for a more perfect weapon... if I were an alien.

    It might also help that the shotgun were pulled back a slot, and the power ups under it or on another path so we can better achieve this skulk fighting weapon.
  • taboofirestaboofires Join Date: 2002-11-24 Member: 9853Members
    Actually, this brings to mind a useful bug/feature from 2.0 and probably earlier. If you held the use key while dead, you wouldn't spawn, so you could let your living players have your res or something (mostly just useful in ns_siege).

    Something similar might be nice, where you could willingly delay yourself a spawn cycle so that two cycles would hit at the same time.
  • DarkATiDarkATi Revelation 22:17 Join Date: 2003-06-20 Member: 17532Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think people are wasting time attacking typos rather than addressing the issue at hand.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I agree. Two players spawning at a time would absolutely fix this problem in my opinion. As an avid fan of both teams (Aliens/Rines) I see no other solution. As a skulk I know that all we have to do is at one time or another wipe out their entire team and when we do that we've won. (Unless they have HA/JP, then there is some hope for the poor rines.) As a marine I hate this, there is nothing more frustrating then spawning in ONE AT A TIME with NO CHANCE of winning.

    And while aliens can get spawncamped as well, it doesn't happen as often as the rines getting spawncamped. Spawn two at a time I say.

    ~ DarkATi
  • Lun4ticLun4tic Join Date: 2003-08-06 Member: 19125Members
    I feel it should be at least three, mainly because when I see them spawn camp they attacked spawners with more then one skulk. If only two spawned, one would get slaughtered, while the other had a chance to kill one, then get killed. If three were to spawn, at least two would survive the first attack and be able to kill off a couple, if any.

    Skulks should not be underestimated.
  • AkfekaAkfeka Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 6991Members
    in a 3 vs. 3 or 4 vs. 4 game, the 3 player minimum might be too much. The point is to have it still scale with the number of players, just make the minimum 2 instead of 3.
  • Lun4ticLun4tic Join Date: 2003-08-06 Member: 19125Members
    Or maybe a percentage of players. Like 33% of the total players will spawn back in.
  • BobTheJanitorBobTheJanitor Join Date: 2003-12-10 Member: 24228Members, NS1 Playtester
    Right now it's 25%, rounded down. So in a 4 on 4 you'd still have one person spawning at a time even with 33%, unless you rounded up. The two person minimum spawn does sound like it would alleviate the problem pretty effectively.
  • Marine0IMarine0I Join Date: 2002-11-14 Member: 8639Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin-Lun4tic+Feb 17 2004, 04:29 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lun4tic @ Feb 17 2004, 04:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well it seems at the starts most marines venture out to find themselves some kills. Their confidence gets them killed most of the time. Skulks can come from anywhere; up, down, left, right, and to watch all these directions would leave open the rest of them. So it's hard to make sure a skulk isn't sneaking up on you at all times. This is why most marines get killed.

    If I were to stay back at base, no doubt I might be able to defend it better, but I'm not a perfect shot, and some of these skulks have a lot of skill when it comes to evading, and some know you don't have to be touching them to bite them.

    My point is that I can't keep control on the marines, and even they can't keep tabs on every direction they might be attacked from. Luckily for a skilled marine they have the firepower and aim to overcome a rampant skulk. Or if you're not skilled, you might have a long hallway between you and the skulk.

    After they've scattered and gotten killed, the skulks quickly make their way to the chair and cause chaos and confusion in the spawn. They are fast, hard to hit, and numerous. I couldn't ask for a more perfect weapon... if I were an alien.

    It might also help that the shotgun were pulled back a slot, and the power ups under it or on another path so we can better achieve this skulk fighting weapon. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    So basically - your team didnt work together. They went out like nubs and got killed.

    At the start of every combat round, I tell everyone to "camp the corridors". If you guard the corridors and force the aliens to get bored and rush at you, they will die trying to cover the distance, you eventually tech up and have jps/shotties while they are still skulking. Defending the base and letting the aliens come to you is how I win almost all my combat maps.

    The same applies to aliens. If you just camp outside the marine spawn and wait for them to come out, you can get the jump on them and get plenty of kills, rather than rushing in against 5 lmgs and getting butchered.

    If the marines are REALLY stupid at the start and rush for your hive, they get massacred. Their massacre gives the skulks focus, skulks race to marine spawn and the slaughter/spawncamp commences.

    Your problem is poor tactics, not poor game design.
  • wRavenwRaven Join Date: 2002-11-03 Member: 6482Members
    edited February 2004
    Congrats! You get the lamer of the year award for:

    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
    So basically - your team didnt work together. They went out like nubs and got killed.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Failing to read the topic; his team did work together, and got killed. It happens, teamwork does always mean victory. However, if you did read, you would learn the topic is about how the "spawn one person at a time" doesn't work for small games because marines will die when facing a swarm of skulks on their own.

    And!

    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->At the start of every combat round, I tell everyone to "camp the corridors". If you guard the corridors and force the aliens to get bored and rush at you, they will die trying to cover the distance, you eventually tech up and have jps/shotties while they are still skulking.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    While I am all for a varied attack stragety of defending, advancing, and taunting, "camping so that the enemy gets bored" isn't one of them. Also, if you have noticed, many aliens stay skulk the whole game; the novelty of regen and carpice hasn't worn off yet for many players.

    Well, thats it really, this however, stuck me as odd:

    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you just camp outside the marine spawn and wait for them to come out, you can get the jump on them and get plenty of kills<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    In any other game, in any other time, this would be considered spawn camping. It fits the defination perfectly. The point is teams shouldn't have to rush into enemy's spawns to get to the objective, they should be speperated by something.

    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Your problem is poor tactics, not poor game design.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    The problem is poor game design, not poor tactics. If his team could of eaither respawned together, spawned in a safe area, then it wouldn't of been two minutes of an ankle biting slaughter. A lot of people have to realize that a losing team should lose, but still have fun doing so; not *spawn*bite*die*wait*spawn*repeat*.
  • CxwfCxwf Join Date: 2003-02-05 Member: 13168Members, Constellation
    Lun4tic has repeatedly complained about 2 things...the spawncamping issue, which I can perhaps agree needs fixing, and a separate complaint that Marines just can't handle skulks, which everyone should be joining Marine01 in shooting down. Marines CAN handle skulks, and Skulks can kill marines as well--it has a lot to do with the skill of the players involved.

    However, it also has a lot to do with who chooses the battlefield. In CO, once both teams are set up to camp some distance from each other, there is really no incentive for either of them to move out and come to their opponents chosen battlefield, while in NSC res flow gives Marines an incentive to move out and take more territory. This seems like the biggest potential problem to me...although if either or both teams are nice enough to actually attack at some point, then the game still flows smoothly.

    A pack of marines moving forward slowly and covering each other from ambush points actually can fight Skulks on pretty even terms even when the skulks are camping. This is where the early game should be fought...since every other choice usually leads to a marked advantage for one team over the other based on the battlefield chosen.
  • ForlornForlorn Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2634Banned
    I dunno, it seems to me the only time I get spawn camped is when there exists a skill difference.


    I wouldn't mind trying out a minimum of 2 players, however, it seems like an okay compromise to me, and since this is beta it can always go back...
  • Lun4ticLun4tic Join Date: 2003-08-06 Member: 19125Members
    I didn't say they can't handle them, just that giving us the shotgun earlier may give us a better chance at surviving the spawn.

    Frankly, I play this game for the same reasons as everybody else, kill and be killed. Win or lose. I don't play a game to try and survive the respawn just to die a second later. That isn't fun.

    I agree it's about skill, but the aliens have the ability to imbalance the game. Of course a team of noob aliens will get slaughtered, but a couple skulks aware of lastinv and fastswitch could keep the marine's spawn clear.

    Being able to defend your 'base' means being there, being able to get there, and having the manpower to defend it. If the spawn was too far from the objective it could put a strain on both teams.

    Two at a time would be satisfactory, maybe under special conditions three.
  • matsomatso Master of Patches Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
    I found the principle behind the beta1 spawn system to be pretty good - when you are low level, you spawn quickly - like in 3-4 seconds. That takes care of any early game spawn camping, as ppl spawns back faster than you can kill them. Once you level up some, you stay dead longer, until once at lvl 10, spawn camping becomes possible because ppl stay dead for 30 seconds or more.... meaning that the game tends to end once ppl reach lvl 8-10 or so.
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