Sensory First
Act_Chill
Join Date: 2003-04-24 Member: 15816Members
Join Date: 2003-04-24 Member: 15816Members
<div class="IPBDescription">why not?</div> D chambers are usually built first, but they arent optimized until the 3rd hive (more "armor" for each hive). Most pub games tend to upgrade armory and elec rts first and not get armor. I say get sensory and then you can have focus and be cloaked (b/c of cahmbers). If a sensory is put outside there base and you have 2 skulls with focus no marine can get out. Later, when they do have armor, you can get cloaking and be right next to them when you start attacking. D chambers should be the second hive incase they got up any elec rts and to attack them longer in their base. With sensory, though, 3 chambers must be put up (faster the better) and putting sensory (prefferably 2) outside will take a team effort. If acheived victory is assured. (even with armor 1 a hit from a gorg, o chamber, or spores will still give skull one hit kill). Say they do get level 1 armor and start to break through. They should only have 1 rt when they do break through and no earlier than 3min into the game. This should give enough time to get 2nd hive going and get some rts out there
Comments
So then D comes second, and we're without movement until third hive (which almost never comes). So, without movement, higher lifeforms are incredibly lowered in strength. If a hive gets attacked, everyone gets to run across the map to get there. No celerity (but that isn't as necessary).
So...What is sensory good for? I'm not sure, honestly. If someone would be so kind as to explain to me any advantages excluding a costly network of SCs and it's abilities, it'd be much appreciated.
Wallh4x( Scent of fear)
and ultimatebite (focus)
Nuff said.
Sensory first CAN work. But however, it is VERY rare to gain a win with an SMD build order.
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sens pwnz. You just need a few skulks that can play a bit. Normally sens fails because of all the losers who learned it from the start just to put def first and start bitching when the get sens.
btw sens is by faaaaar the best hive defense at start of game. 1 sens and you can kill 5-6 marines assaulting th hive. The just can not see you
Thing is, SC benefits lower lifeforms (skulk, lerk, and gorge) much better than DC does.
However, it is true that fades and oni are very crippled without regen/cara, mainly regen.
How I percieve SC/DC balance is this:
SC is viable as an early game chamber. Superior skulks and lerks keep rines from securing res and hives. Yes, SC will not help a whole lot if the rines have some elec res and turreted hives. Point is, rines should have very very few res and no turreted hives because SC skulks and lerks kill them easily. Aliens have all the rest of the res on the map, and quickly throw up another hive and DCs. Comm can build obs and scan, but the advantage has gone to the aliens. It is a matter of holding that advantage. Fade and oni can handle the res starved rines, without MCs or even DCs, if the aliens did very well early on.
DC first depends on quick higher end liforms to push back the rines and kill res. Competent rines will defeat DC first skulks and res up the map with elec res. Cara buys 1 hive skulks 4 more bullets agains lvl0 LMGs. Not much, and not as good as cloaking, wall hack, and one hit kills, IMO at least. However, DC fades absolutley terrorize mid game rines. Before the nades/HMGs come out, competent DC fades can halt rine progression and destroy the costly elec res rather easily. Onos seals the deal and bust any outpost rines made, like turreted hives. Onos and fades will not work half as well against higher lvl weaps and armor without DC. A no regen/cara onos is a dead onos.
Whether or not these scenarios are the truest way the game is played at competitave lvls, I can't say. I have never seen the SC scenario work or even attempted, but that is what would seem to work from observation.
in pubby games its too disorganised to efficantly make full use of the sc. its a chor to even get ppl to drop 3 scs in proper postions to them to be effective.
focus is good BUT, alot of cmdrs tat i noe of almost always start off with armor1. it negates the effects of focus.
heh at the competitive level sc is almost suicdial and i wont even have to mention y.
the sc chamber as first has been debated to the death. and the conclusion has always been it wont work in pubbies and in scrims its not as effective as the usual tactics
Random rine getting rt about 1 min into the game: "commander, I just got nailed in one bite! they got SC!"
Me: "roger that, time to dance guys"
Assigning entire team into 2 big squads, giving each a couple of welders (~20 res) one leaves for one free hive, other for another one, getting rts on the way (no elec for them yet). At the wp, immediate rt/tf, elec both (not even fade with nail that combo with SC, no need for turrets yet). Few dead guys that die to focus put down arms lab, armor 1 get researched in one minute. Groups done in hives move out to cap the rest of RTs, sticking together nailing the poor skulks trying to cope with armor 1 and 1-2 welders per squad making their focus a nerf rather then an upgrade, concentrating on quickly tearing down any existing alien RTs first. Observatory gets built by the guys that die and respawn, phase tech and armor 2 (to seriously nerf focus fades that should start popping up now) get researched. Every single node we get gets electrified, aliens try grouping tight with gorges in order to at least get a few of our nodes down, while the LA trains quickly kill every existing alien node, denying res flow to aliens. Slowly (no rush after both hives are secured) we get PGs to all hives and calmly tech to HA and uppgrades, while laughing at poor aliens **** at the dumb gorge who dropped the SC while trying to hopelessly hammer the hive locations in vain attempts to retake them with lower lifeforms, having to have often 1/3-1/2 of team go gorge to do the same job that regen upgrade was supposed to have done. A few fades or even oni pop up, and get torn down after a couple of engagements due to lack of DC upgrades (poor ****, I feel their pain, as I'm a pretty good fade myself and know that this marine strat would've been hopeless if I had regen). In the end, we control the map, while aliens sit in their hive and start going f4 or get sieged/trained to death depending on the mood of the marines. Ugh.
Upgrade order is Armor 1 (focus skulks nerf) armor 2 (focus fades nerf) weapon 1 (tear down fades/oni even more quickly) armor 3 (or weapon 2, if they have enough lerks out there and you need to have a bit more of a punch), and then the rest. MT somewhere in between when people in the field survive long enough to not need an extra welder/shottie long enough to get you a few extra resourses.
In short - SC is only viable for lower lifeforms that are meant skulk around, killing people in short hit and runs. Higher lifeforms require assault capabilities, and lack of DC or MC equals severe nerf on any higher lifeform's ability to assault defended marine encampements. SC forces hit and run only play style, and while that will rake up kills, it will not kill the strategically important bases. And all the kills in the world are worthless if you cannot get up that second hive up while lacking DC.
To sum all above: the only way aliens can win with SC first is if aliens have a significantly greater skill then marines/marines mess something up badly. With equal skill on both teams, aliens will stand zero chance.
Of course the marines *can* kill the entire alien "siege" team, including the SC, and it even may happen in *both* exits thus cripling the aliens beyond recover, and of course this coordination level on alien teams is idilic in most pub games.
Although a comm can build obs and scan, he cannot keep it up all the time, especially with sensories in weird spots and in vents.
However, 1 sensory costs 10 res, and on most maps, a minimal viable cloaking network needs 4 sensory chambers ASAP, right off the bat before marines get anywhere near the middle of the map or a hive.
The amt of res needed for a decent sensory network is crippling, delaying RTs, Hives and higher lifeforms.
If sensories cost 8 res, 1 player could drop 2 asap, instead of the 1 and wait wait wait now. Sens first needs to be fast before marines move out, and this will allow it.
In 1.0 I believe this was the decision made for sensory as it cost 10 res instead of 14 like the others so it could be scattered liberally as early warning. The function has changed, but this cost factor should still be in.
With equal skilled teams its a hell.
a comm gets himself obs and armor1 asap. That 2 hive lockdown, with again obs there is also a must. Given the fact that comms then build there base, IN THE MIDDLE to make damn sure that a now decloaked kharaa can't get to them intime, and instead of tf have a obs with a rine guarding. (if it is in the middle a skulk is dead before reaching it)
Now simply indeed techup to phasegate. get motion along the way and laught.
"camp outside base with gorges"
Not gona work. comm das his initial scans to use up ping. He gets his man out, maybe evn with shotties. No.. I saw campers like that. Most bases have more then one exit. you can't camp them all effective.
Serious, unless the comm is a retard or the team is n00b SC is suicide unless you get a 2nd hive stat.
Correctly done, this is devastatingly more powerful than DC, just because it requires a lot of res for the marines to effectively counter it. You can even pull it off with 2 gorges for SCs and 1 saving for hive at the minimum, so if you can count on that, go for it. Unfortunately, it's just hard to make it happen on pubs... the main advantage for DCs is that they are low maintainence... they support lots of different things, a half noob team won't ruin it, and you can get away with not dropping them until 4 minutes into the game even. I want to see SC work more often, and I try to, but if you can't get someone to agree to save for the hive in those few moments you have to lay down the SCs, you're taking a big gamble.
Its certainly not easy, but it is possible to do sensory first.
I'll say it again - SC has a singlular purpose: enchance hit-and-run abilities. It allows easier evaluation of threat (SoF), makes staying hidden easier (cloaking) and allows you to kill enemy early on in one attack of slot 1 weapon (focus). It gives no base assault bonuses, hence negating any serious threat to marine base early on. This allows commanders to take on an agressive expanding strategy, which will eventually allow them to outtech aliens and win, even if aliens manage to get the second hive up eventually. Both MC and DC allow some base assault capabilities, forcing commander to spend more time and resourses on defending marine positions, rather then leaving the base to AI defenses (electricity, mines and turrets) while using the marines to expand their zone of control even further.
At least, that is the way it is supposed to happen, IMO. Obviosuly that does not happen on pubs, but it is probably different on clan play. If clanners can't consistenly win with SC first, then the SC really is just worthless.
I do remember a big SC first thread a while ago, back in 2.01 days. Some highly regarded players, Stoneburg for instance, were saying that the SC was weak and too easily countered to be first or any chamber except third hive. And it was. That may have changed now, with the slight adjustments to cloaking and the replacing of the worthless pheremones upgrade with focus.
What I am saying is, so far the arguments against SC first that I have seen are more to do with how the teams played than the chamber itself.
Now realise that in pubs. have fun.
*runs to his DCs*
Focus? Armor 1.
Cloaking? Scanner Sweeps.
Scent of Fear? Scanner Sweeps and/or MT.
Compare this to Defense Chambers, where the only counters are skill-based, and you see why sensory first doesn't work.
-calldown
Plus, the elec-RT-rush is very popular right now. And you really need regen to kill elec nodes, from a strategic standpoint. Ideally, you want to hit a node on one side of the map, make all the marines clump together and walk over there, then hit a node on the other side of the map. Can't do that with adren gorges.
sigh.....sc first is just......the point is, that you need DCs to really hurt marines whether it be with lerks, oni, or fades, because of regen.
"but u can get dc on second hive!"
ok, so now we have 2 hives, dc, and sc ...unless the marines are total nublars, you will not be given access to the 3rd hive... and will eventually get heavy armor, and weapons. once they do, you need onos or you lose...if you have onos without movements trying to take on heavy armor, ufl...you have neither the ability to continually stomp, nor the ability to hit and run with celerity, and good luck being fade without movements vs HA as well. lerk? hah. skulks? nother kill next one plz. gorge? mwahah <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo-->
also, have you ever considered the ability mc itself gives? it teleports you to a built hive, or a hive under attack. now, imagine the following scenario....lets say....the map is... ns_nothing. your first hive is powersilo, the other is viaduct.
"omg! marines in via!11 stop them!" now, eventually, 3/4 should die a lot. which means 3/8 of your team will be spawning in powersilo, therefore taking AGES to help the hive out, to die again, rendering a good third of your team useless during hive attack. it would be kind of like having teams 9vs6
now, ive already given two indirect reasons as to why you should NOT build sensories first (or second for that matter), and if you want, i can also burn the chamber itself to the ground if you want. lets take a look at the abilities it gives, and the ability itself has.
It can cloak anything nearby given a certain radius. a marine with any understanding of the game should be able to tell theres a sc nearby him
"comm, scan plz. sc here" *scanner sweep, slash slash*. bb sensory
now the upgrades itself:
Cloaking: Now this is the only upgrade i would even deem sc sort of useful for, however, it can only be applied to skulks (since i think any skilled fade would prefer scent of fear, maybe focus, and cloaked onos well..meh), and even then be blown away by a good commander with scans near hot areas, motion tracking, and observatories. also, it becomes more or less useless once the marines get enough armor upgrades for 4 bites, or heavy armor
Focus: the supposed "1-bite-kill" ...yeah, well, maybe next game; marines already have an arms lab with armor1. for skulks that is.. now, lets just skip the gorge and get to a lerk; focus lerk is maybe half worth using, but i reckon a half-worth lerk would prefer adren or celerity...for fades, its not so bad because it should mean 2 swipe kill, instead of the multiplied swipes it takes, considering medpacks, and for onos....it might be somewhat good, but not really worth using if you can have SoF which multiplies your lifespan (and boy are you gonna need SoF because you dont have mc!)
Scent of Fear: for a skulk, nah, you can parasite them and have cloaking..for a gorge, its ok cos you will know when to run, and for lerk fade and onos its pretty good actually...but...NOT HALFWAY AS USEFUL AS A MOVEMENT UPGRADE.
My conclusion: sc is the lose, simply because you will lack the proper upgrades to combat the marines later on in the game, whether it be due to a lack of DC since youre getting owned so much and kinda trapped in your hive, or due to alack of MC making your higher lifeforms quite weak compared to the order in which you could (and should) have built chambers. sc is a nice extra for when you have already won the game, nothing less, but certainly nothing more.
(Note: I do not deem SC useless in ns. but it certainly comes very close to being just that in classic. in combat, i usually have an sc upgrade or two for any lifeform, but as i said, it cannot and will not win games in classic, it will more likely lose them for you.)
People bash "sensory first" because:
"<i>the marines wil not let you get the third (or even second) hive</i>". How could they prevent it if they die 50 meters from marine start everytime they try to cap some res? Or will they wait to build arms lab, build an obs while they research armour 1, and only then leave the base? And just because they have done it they will still need to be able to employ their "advantage". And if they turtle, while they wait for their second HA suit (if the commander got all arms lab upgrades) the aliens will have a pair of onos, 3 fades, two (or tree) hives and some WoL to spare, because they have all but one resource node controled! And the "stronger" the marines get, the aliens get stronger too, but exponentially (?). By the time the commander assemble a HA train (with no resources to replace the equipment eventually lost) the aliens will have all their tech tree, onii with 100 in reserve if they die, and so on.
"<i>the marines have counters for all sensory ups</i>" (or at least focus and cloack): well, they have weapon upgrades for defense upgrades (all of them), they have cata and armour ups against celerity/adrenaline, motion tracking to silence, (btw, wich other chamber does counter movement tracking, one of the most annoying marine abilities)? In fact, *in some cases*, sensory works best against weapons than defense does! You cannot kill what you cannot see.
"sensory is vulnerable to scan sweeps". Yes, it is, or it would be too powerfull. And how manny scans would be necessary to cover the whole map?
Defense or movement first are weak? Sure they are not! They are very useful for a longer game when you aim to get higher life forms and 2-3 hives before taking a more ofensive action, they are the backbone of aliens big guns, they are *safer*! But they are not the only feasable way to win.
I know, I know, all the above assumes that the marines "cannot fight back" or "they must be noobs". Well, sometimes they really can't, and not because they are noobs or stupid.
Sensory is about map control. It's an extremely viable option if the initial marine push is slowed or stopped in it's tracks, as once you have sensory it's a simple matter to contain marines.
In the majority of pub games, commanders are not going to be sufficiently attentive to scan every time one of their marines tries to leave their base. A couple cloaked skulks will make quick work of a small group of marines. The key is to contain the marines and then keep them contained.
If the alien team fails to contain the marine team early on, it's not uncommon for the commander to neglect to build an observatory, giving a skulk a perfect opportunity to sneak into the marine base and wreak havoc.
Scent of fear is garbage. All it does is tell you where the WOUNDED marines are, the ones that you should already be aware of their general location. You should be listening for the marines, not charging after that one red blip that's in middle of a group of five marines.
DCs aren't exactly great for skulks either. With a single hive, you can either get carapace, allowing you to survive 4 more bullets (9 vs 13 to kill, before upgrades), or you can get regeneration. Regeneration is worthless in my opinion, as it doesn't significantly increase the combat effectiveness of the skulk. Sure you can heal after a fight, but it'll take almost as much time as running back to the hive, and it gives your position away. Gorges do benefit significantly from DCs, but with SCs gorges have other ways to avoid getting killed.
I've played at least six sensory first games since beta 3 came out, and have yet to lose one. You simply need smart players who are willing to do something other than charge straight at the marines to consistently win SC first games.
True, but armor 1 (which is sufficient to negate focus) costs around 40 res (20+20 IIRC). Weapons 3 (which is sufficient to negate carapace 3) costs around 140 res (20+20+40+60 IIRC).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In the majority of pub games, commanders are not going to be sufficiently attentive to scan every time one of their marines tries to leave their base<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When I comm against sensory, I tell people to mass up and move out as a single group. That way I can scan ahead of them. Obs energy is a problem. But in the early game, the group is constantly stopping to build RTs, which gives me some time to recharge.
Thanks to electrified nodes, once a node is built, I don't need to worry about sending people back to check up on it, so I really have no reason to send out lots of little groups that I can't monitor.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Scent of fear is garbage. All it does is tell you where the WOUNDED marines are<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nope. SoF shows all marines in the radius. They changed this in 2.0.
I've heard it repeated several times and I have to agree; IF YOU GET SC FIRST YOU NEED THE SECOND HIVE ASAP!
SC networks are unrealistic on pub servers, so I don't put much weight into them. More inportant is the SC at the key hallway, or important choke-point. That sc will make it VERY hard for marines to get by. If they scan, you run stupid. If you placed the SC in a good spot (ie in a wall) they can't kill it, and the cloak aura will come back.
The biggest killer in a mid-game, is marines getting into, near a hive and aliens not noticing before they get entrenched. The point is, once rines get lvl1 armor, DON'T GET FOCUS, SoF is MUCH better, for the team and individually. If you'd a had that SoF, sneaking into a hive is nearly impossible, and it's pritty darn hard not to spot that mass of red dots.
Finally, in the early game SoF is still useful, it will let you know if they have moved out, and if you should then rush their base and f00k them over.
Agreed, all of this entails teamwork. But then again, without teamwork you don't have all that much more chance if you had gone dc first. All of those examples where the rines dug into the empty hives just means you screwed up in the first place. With SoF you at least have a chace to notice them before they get entrenched.
They only point I'm trying to make is, sc first has chances to win just as much as dc first does, as long as you pay attention.
Sensory and movement chambers are teamplay chambers , they don't make the rambos any stronger. They require your teammates to save for the hive and not for fading. They require skulks and gorges to actually defend and heal the forward OCs. Movement chambers might be more effective against elec RTs than DCs , if you can associate adren gorges to RT hunting skulks. With sensories , your teammates have a better chance of preventing the rines from dropping RTs in the first place , but they must be dedicated to it : pubbers prefer fooling around and ramboing.
Try beating good teamplayers who choose sensory first on Nancy...
Sensory and movement chambers are teamplay chambers , they don't make the rambos any stronger. They require your teammates to save for the hive and not for fading. They require skulks and gorges to actually defend and heal the forward OCs. Movement chambers might be more effective against elec RTs than DCs , if you can associate adren gorges to RT hunting skulks. With sensories , your teammates have a better chance of preventing the rines from dropping RTs in the first place , but they must be dedicated to it : pubbers prefer fooling around and ramboing.
Try beating good teamplayers who choose sensory first on Nancy... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Valid point but shouldn't you realize that if you assume that you have a good teamplaying alien team you'd have an equal marine team?
All you need is the comm to keep his marines together, elec TF the base and scan ahead. Oops, there goes your cloaking. Grabs Armor 1 - whoops, sorry, no focus. And SoF? Sorry, no carapace, you're down for the count. The marines can *easily* get 3 or 4 RT's which is all they need to hold for the first five minutes.
Sensory first only works against an amateur team, thanks.
-calldown