<!--QuoteBegin-SuperTeflon+Feb 19 2004, 12:53 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SuperTeflon @ Feb 19 2004, 12:53 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If it says nothing, I'd assume it's 'modify with credit'. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> and thats the point if he says nothing you dont have any right
read the copyrights law
see i really dont want to discuss this any longer these are facts.
i personaly dont care what you do with my models in your privat use but this is the way copyright works.
and comments like yours that i cant speak english, are the ones that make people mad. and sometime gives them decisions like brigs
its ok dillinja obviously this guy has no idea what hes talking about
super teflon you should have some respect for people that do something for free some guy sits at home spends THEIR time working on something just so a ignorant moron like yourself can play a game for about 30 min and you dont have the decency to respect a single wish the author has? YOU my friend are selfish not us
superteflon quick question have you ever modeled something? ever skinmeshed? ever animated?
<!--QuoteBegin-chrono5454+Feb 18 2004, 10:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (chrono5454 @ Feb 18 2004, 10:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> you dont have the decency to respect a single wish the author has? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Show me a single place where I said that I'm going to modify and release and sell models others have made regardless of what they want.
No I haven't done anything as menial as making a simple block with pretty colors on it. But I have created a Tribes mod from raw code, alone, and had it stolen and distributed and implemented into about 50 other mods.
Did I care? Yeah. Why? Because it would've been awesome if it said my name in the credits for having based off of. But it didn't. I was the unsung hero of many mods.
<!--QuoteBegin-SuperTeflon+Feb 19 2004, 12:53 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SuperTeflon @ Feb 19 2004, 12:53 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And models are free, and cost nothing, so that makes the whole 'do not modify and release' issue pretty silly, in my eyes. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> this is the main point you ALL misunderstood
its just not true that you can do what you want just because its free.
<!--QuoteBegin-Dillinja+Feb 18 2004, 11:00 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dillinja @ Feb 18 2004, 11:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> its just not true that you can do what you want just because its free. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I know as much as you want, you're going to keep trying to make me out to be the hackjob reskinning badguy. Stop putting words in my mouth. This is the second time you've done it. I'll post here again when you actually READ MY POSTS. (That is, assuming, your assumptions aren't getting this thread locked)
You said comments like 'do you speak english' make you angry? Try posting a point of view, only to have someone who can't be bothered to capitalize their sentences rip certain words out of context, arranging them in the most asinine fashion, pulling the most contrived ideas out of them, and labeling me with it. That's what you've been doing this whole time, and it's really starting to **** ME off.
jesus you are senisible sorry dude the only one who said offending content was you. you shouldnt take things so personaly
p.s. i dont wanna hear again that im bad at english thank you very much
i dont wanna discuss withyou any longer since the only thing your doing is telling me i cant speak english and therefor dont understand your point of views
coilAmateur pirate. Professional monkey. All pance.Join Date: 2002-04-12Member: 424Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
Superteflon: a player who downloads a model (that a modeler has spent countless hours creating) and proceeds to rip its guts out and put it back together how *he* wants to -- in complete disregard for a simple request by the modeler -- is no less selfish. In fact, he's *more* selfish. Here's why:
A model is a gift, plain and simple. I model because I want to learn how to in the hopes of getting involved in making games for a living. I don't model for you guys; I model for myself. I'd be pretty upset if someone were to take an ax to my chibiskulk or any of the other models I'm currently working on. And frankly, there's no reason for me to release them... I get the practice whether or not I release the final product. Releasing my models, then, is because I'm giving a gift - sharing with the community I take part in. If I don't feel that the gift is being appreciated, I'm going to stop offering it. Like Brig did.
Secondly, regarding your Corvette analogy, you said <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't see GM crying and shutting their doors because they never intended for the Corvette to have blue headlights.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Perhaps not; that is their decision. However, look at Microsoft - they've designed XBox Live so a modded Xbox won't work on it, regardless of what the mod was for (sometimes it's to play pirated games, which of course is theft. Other times, however, it's to put Linux on it, which doesn't technically hurt Microsoft). Clearly they don't want people modding their system. Hell, they've offered a reward to the first person to install Linux on an Xbox without hardware modification... why? So they can alter the hardware to make it impossible!
There are plenty of products whose specs include the phrase "warranty void if owner makes modifications to product" or similar language. Clearly, these companies don't want people playing around with their product. This is not all that different.
Regarding your music industry analogy, look at Weird Al Yankovic and other parody artists. He has to secure the legal right to parody every song he borrows (I read somewhere, for instance, that Prince has never granted Yankovic the right to alter his music). Artists who perform covers of music have the same hurdles to jump. Any parody or cover you hear on the radio goes through similar hoops, and if it didn't you'd better believe it won't be on the radio for long.
In that case, the question is one of image -- the original artist may not want his work re-presented in a manner other than the one he originally intended. Copyright law respects that wish, granting the original artist legal recourse against those who would use his work without his consent.
A modeler *does* have full copyright of his/her models. Theoretically, he could pursue legal action, especially if his model is presented with the disclaimer "you agree by using this model that you will not modify it from the original in any way, shape, or form without the express permission of the author." Logistically, suing someone for a reskin is, as Luminair pointed out, not really feasible or worthwhile. Instead, we go by the honor system: if a modeler doesn't want his models changed, don't change them! _______
Some of you may post work in the artwork forum from time to time. How would you feel if someone took your pencil sketch of a marine and a skulk in mortal combat, and put the skulk in a tu-tu, or colored the whole thing in neon, or turned it into some bizarre xenopornography pic? You'd be ticked. This isn't much different.
<b>Respect this community's modelers. They do an amazing amount of work for you all, and don't ask for much in return.</b>
Personally? I said that denying customization and release with credit was selfish, and you got **** first.
It IS selfish. But taking Brig wolf's models, which he said specifically that you are not to DISTRIBUTE and doing so is selfish also. In my eyes, the idea that someone reskinning your pistol is mortally offensive to you is just... well it's stupid. If you're selling the model pack for cash, or giving models to people that donated to you, something, and someone distrbutes them, then by all means, punish them. But getting into a pissy fit because some likes your freely distributed model in a slightly darker shade, that's silly. It's disrespectul? I suppose, but it's still silly. That's what I'm all up on.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Regarding your music industry analogy, look at Weird Al Yankovic and other parody artists. He has to secure the legal right to parody every song he borrows (I read somewhere, for instance, that Prince has never granted Yankovic the right to alter his music). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not true. It's clearly written in copyright law that satire and parody is NOT an infringement. Maybe Prince found a loophole somewhere, god knows there's so many of them, but... here I'll find it for you...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The 1961 Report of the Register of Copyrights on the General Revision of the U.S. Copyright Law cites examples of activities that courts have regarded as fair use: “quotation of excerpts in a review or criticism for purposes of illustration or comment; quotation of short passages in a scholarly or technical work, for illustration or clarification of the author’s observations; <b>use in a parody of some of the content of the work parodied</b>; summary of an address or article, with brief quotations, in a news report; reproduction by a library of a portion of a work to replace part of a damaged copy; reproduction by a teacher or student of a small part of a work to illustrate a lesson; reproduction of a work in legislative or judicial proceedings or reports; incidental and fortuitous reproduction, in a newsreel or broadcast, of a work located in the scene of an event being reported.”<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-SuperTeflon+Feb 19 2004, 12:30 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SuperTeflon @ Feb 19 2004, 12:30 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-skullz_nixon+Feb 18 2004, 10:22 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (skullz_nixon @ Feb 18 2004, 10:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The kid stealing the song isn't just as selfish? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> BTW if you're going to try to skirt around and avoid confronting an issue, try to make it look less obvious next time. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Easy there cowboy. I'm not 'skirting the issue' I'm poiting out your analogy is crap. I happen to agree with you, and to be honest I cannot speak intelligently about the law, as some people have been pointing out about others. I can however see NOBODY here can speak intelligently about it because there are too many conflicting ideas and sorces. My gathered picture is this is WAY to complex of a process for some punk in his basement to waste time and money on suing some other punk in their basement for turning a green alien purple.
I can however speak to the morality of the issue, and it is of my own opinion, and thus there is no right or wrong answer. If you respect the author at all, then you respect his wishes. However, thats a double edged sword, because if the author respected the community at all he'd leave it at "I had fun making this, please credit me if you want to edit/host it someplace else". and not say "Don't ever touch my skin/model/sound/hack/ect.
In the end? no right or wrong answer, as I said. I will respect the wishes of the authors who have those wishes, and not change/edit their work and release it. I will however, practice what I beilive to be the morally sound, and right way to be an author for a mod: Let 'em have it.
Thats right....the word "Release" means "to let go" you are letting go of your work and GIVING it to other people...last I checked it wasn't wrong to pass on something or modify it to meet your needs if it dosn't do so already, but thats my own opinion and I will practice only what I preach, and not try to belittle others and change policies.
<!--QuoteBegin-coil+Feb 19 2004, 01:10 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (coil @ Feb 19 2004, 01:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Superteflon: a player who downloads a model (that a modeler has spent countless hours creating) and proceeds to rip its guts out and put it back together how *he* wants to -- in complete disregard for a simple request by the modeler -- is no less selfish. In fact, he's *more* selfish. Here's why:
A model is a gift, plain and simple. I model because I want to learn how to in the hopes of getting involved in making games for a living. I don't model for you guys; I model for myself. I'd be pretty upset if someone were to take an ax to my chibiskulk or any of the other models I'm currently working on. And frankly, there's no reason for me to release them... I get the practice whether or not I release the final product. Releasing my models, then, is because I'm giving a gift - sharing with the community I take part in. If I don't feel that the gift is being appreciated, I'm going to stop offering it. Like Brig did.
Secondly, regarding your Corvette analogy, you said <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't see GM crying and shutting their doors because they never intended for the Corvette to have blue headlights.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Perhaps not; that is their decision. However, look at Microsoft - they've designed XBox Live so a modded Xbox won't work on it, regardless of what the mod was for (sometimes it's to play pirated games, which of course is theft. Other times, however, it's to put Linux on it, which doesn't technically hurt Microsoft). Clearly they don't want people modding their system. Hell, they've offered a reward to the first person to install Linux on an Xbox without hardware modification... why? So they can alter the hardware to make it impossible!
There are plenty of products whose specs include the phrase "warranty void if owner makes modifications to product" or similar language. Clearly, these companies don't want people playing around with their product. This is not all that different.
Regarding your music industry analogy, look at Weird Al Yankovic and other parody artists. He has to secure the legal right to parody every song he borrows (I read somewhere, for instance, that Prince has never granted Yankovic the right to alter his music). Artists who perform covers of music have the same hurdles to jump. Any parody or cover you hear on the radio goes through similar hoops, and if it didn't you'd better believe it won't be on the radio for long.
In that case, the question is one of image -- the original artist may not want his work re-presented in a manner other than the one he originally intended. Copyright law respects that wish, granting the original artist legal recourse against those who would use his work without his consent.
A modeler *does* have full copyright of his/her models. Theoretically, he could pursue legal action, especially if his model is presented with the disclaimer "you agree by using this model that you will not modify it from the original in any way, shape, or form without the express permission of the author." Logistically, suing someone for a reskin is, as Luminair pointed out, not really feasible or worthwhile. Instead, we go by the honor system: if a modeler doesn't want his models changed, don't change them! _______
Some of you may post work in the artwork forum from time to time. How would you feel if someone took your pencil sketch of a marine and a skulk in mortal combat, and put the skulk in a tu-tu, or colored the whole thing in neon, or turned it into some bizarre xenopornography pic? You'd be ticked. This isn't much different.
<b>Respect this community's modelers. They do an amazing amount of work for you all, and don't ask for much in return.</b> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> THANK YOU COIL you said exactly what i meant <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
superteflon since you know how it feels dont you think you should atleast try and stop it from happening again?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I can however speak to the morality of the issue, and it is of my own opinion, and thus there is no right or wrong answer. If you respect the author at all, then you respect his wishes. However, thats a double edged sword, because if the author respected the community at all he'd leave it at "I had fun making this, please credit me if you want to edit/host it someplace else". and not say "Don't ever touch my skin/model/sound/hack/ect.
In the end? no right or wrong answer, as I said. I will respect the wishes of the authors who have those wishes, and not change/edit their work and release it. I will however, practice what I beilive to be the morally sound, and right way to be an author for a mod: Let 'em have it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Said (obviously) better then I've been trying to <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-chrono5454+Feb 18 2004, 11:19 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (chrono5454 @ Feb 18 2004, 11:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> superteflon since you know how it feels dont you think you should atleast try and stop it from happening again? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> On one hand, I know my mod helped many people jumpstart their own. I liked that, and I'm sorta glad I helped others learn. But I was **** that I wasn't credited with it.
But I dont' see any models on these forums being released without a 'Credits to' phrase so the points are moot.
coilAmateur pirate. Professional monkey. All pance.Join Date: 2002-04-12Member: 424Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
Teflon, first of all you're dodging my points by nitpicking my examples. Second of all, look what you just bolded: "use in a parody of <u>some of the content</u> of the work parodied." SOME OF IT. What you are citing is the Fair Use clause, which does not provide for use of the entire work.
Look at the Penny-Arcade/American Greetings fiasco. Brief recap: Penny Arcade parodied American McGee's "Alice" and the upcoming "Oz" by creating a teaser poster of his "next project," Strawberry Shortcake. American Greetings, owners of Ms. Shortcake, threatened to sue and frankly, I've looked at the details and I believe they were in the right. It may not be *nice* of them, but it's within their rights.
I cited that example to bring up the issue of image -- an artist may not want his work represented in a manner other than what he intended. I dare say that use of an entire model for the purposes of a simple reskin wouldn't fall under the category of Fair Use. _______
Clearly we're not going to agree on this. Whether or not it is your right to modify a model (it's not), you believe that a modeler shouldn't restrict users of his model in that manner. Unfortunately, beliefs and personal desires don't always hold up to the law and the greater good that it protects. The law is siding with Brig on this one, and therefore so do these forums. Respect a modeler's rights.
Comments
If they say 'ask before modifying', you ask.
If they say 'don't modify', you can modify it all you want, as long as you're not distributing it.
If they say 'modify with credit', modify with credit.
If it says nothing, I'd assume it's 'modify with credit'.
That's all there is to it. If you're letting people modify it, that's generous of you. You care for other people and the good of the community.
If you're not letting people modify it, it's opposite of generous, it's selfish, you care not for the community, only you and yourself.
*shrug* Unless you want to tell me what the real definition of selfish is..
If it says nothing, I'd assume it's 'modify with credit'. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
and thats the point if he says nothing you dont have any right
read the copyrights law
see i really dont want to discuss this any longer these are facts.
i personaly dont care what you do with my models in your privat use but this is the way copyright works.
and comments like yours that i cant speak english, are the ones that make people mad. and sometime gives them decisions like brigs
super teflon you should have some respect for people that do something for free
some guy sits at home spends THEIR time working on something just so a ignorant moron like yourself can play a game for about 30 min and you dont have the decency to respect a single wish the author has? YOU my friend are selfish not us
superteflon quick question have you ever modeled something?
ever skinmeshed?
ever animated?
Show me a single place where I said that I'm going to modify and release and sell models others have made regardless of what they want.
No I haven't done anything as menial as making a simple block with pretty colors on it. But I have created a Tribes mod from raw code, alone, and had it stolen and distributed and implemented into about 50 other mods.
Did I care? Yeah. Why? Because it would've been awesome if it said my name in the credits for having based off of. But it didn't. I was the unsung hero of many mods.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this is the main point you ALL misunderstood
its just not true that you can do what you want just because its free.
I know as much as you want, you're going to keep trying to make me out to be the hackjob reskinning badguy. Stop putting words in my mouth. This is the second time you've done it. I'll post here again when you actually READ MY POSTS. (That is, assuming, your assumptions aren't getting this thread locked)
You said comments like 'do you speak english' make you angry? Try posting a point of view, only to have someone who can't be bothered to capitalize their sentences rip certain words out of context, arranging them in the most asinine fashion, pulling the most contrived ideas out of them, and labeling me with it. That's what you've been doing this whole time, and it's really starting to **** ME off.
p.s. i dont wanna hear again that im bad at english thank you very much
i dont wanna discuss withyou any longer since the only thing your doing is telling me i cant speak english and therefor dont understand your point of views
lock this thread.
A model is a gift, plain and simple. I model because I want to learn how to in the hopes of getting involved in making games for a living. I don't model for you guys; I model for myself. I'd be pretty upset if someone were to take an ax to my chibiskulk or any of the other models I'm currently working on. And frankly, there's no reason for me to release them... I get the practice whether or not I release the final product. Releasing my models, then, is because I'm giving a gift - sharing with the community I take part in. If I don't feel that the gift is being appreciated, I'm going to stop offering it. Like Brig did.
Secondly, regarding your Corvette analogy, you said
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't see GM crying and shutting their doors because they never intended for the Corvette to have blue headlights.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perhaps not; that is their decision. However, look at Microsoft - they've designed XBox Live so a modded Xbox won't work on it, regardless of what the mod was for (sometimes it's to play pirated games, which of course is theft. Other times, however, it's to put Linux on it, which doesn't technically hurt Microsoft). Clearly they don't want people modding their system. Hell, they've offered a reward to the first person to install Linux on an Xbox without hardware modification... why? So they can alter the hardware to make it impossible!
There are plenty of products whose specs include the phrase "warranty void if owner makes modifications to product" or similar language. Clearly, these companies don't want people playing around with their product. This is not all that different.
Regarding your music industry analogy, look at Weird Al Yankovic and other parody artists. He has to secure the legal right to parody every song he borrows (I read somewhere, for instance, that Prince has never granted Yankovic the right to alter his music). Artists who perform covers of music have the same hurdles to jump. Any parody or cover you hear on the radio goes through similar hoops, and if it didn't you'd better believe it won't be on the radio for long.
In that case, the question is one of image -- the original artist may not want his work re-presented in a manner other than the one he originally intended. Copyright law respects that wish, granting the original artist legal recourse against those who would use his work without his consent.
A modeler *does* have full copyright of his/her models. Theoretically, he could pursue legal action, especially if his model is presented with the disclaimer "you agree by using this model that you will not modify it from the original in any way, shape, or form without the express permission of the author." Logistically, suing someone for a reskin is, as Luminair pointed out, not really feasible or worthwhile. Instead, we go by the honor system: if a modeler doesn't want his models changed, don't change them!
_______
Some of you may post work in the artwork forum from time to time. How would you feel if someone took your pencil sketch of a marine and a skulk in mortal combat, and put the skulk in a tu-tu, or colored the whole thing in neon, or turned it into some bizarre xenopornography pic? You'd be ticked. This isn't much different.
<b>Respect this community's modelers. They do an amazing amount of work for you all, and don't ask for much in return.</b>
It IS selfish. But taking Brig wolf's models, which he said specifically that you are not to DISTRIBUTE and doing so is selfish also. In my eyes, the idea that someone reskinning your pistol is mortally offensive to you is just... well it's stupid. If you're selling the model pack for cash, or giving models to people that donated to you, something, and someone distrbutes them, then by all means, punish them. But getting into a pissy fit because some likes your freely distributed model in a slightly darker shade, that's silly. It's disrespectul? I suppose, but it's still silly. That's what I'm all up on.
Not true. It's clearly written in copyright law that satire and parody is NOT an infringement. Maybe Prince found a loophole somewhere, god knows there's so many of them, but... here I'll find it for you...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The 1961 Report of the Register of Copyrights on the General Revision of the U.S. Copyright Law cites examples of activities that courts have regarded as fair use: “quotation of excerpts in a review or criticism for purposes of illustration or comment; quotation of short passages in a scholarly or technical work, for illustration or clarification of the author’s observations; <b>use in a parody of some of the content of the work parodied</b>; summary of an address or article, with brief quotations, in a news report; reproduction by a library of a portion of a work to replace part of a damaged copy; reproduction by a teacher or student of a small part of a work to illustrate a lesson; reproduction of a work in legislative or judicial proceedings or reports; incidental and fortuitous reproduction, in a newsreel or broadcast, of a work located in the scene of an event being reported.”<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
superteflon well that really seems to be your additude so i hope it changes some day
cu
BTW if you're going to try to skirt around and avoid confronting an issue, try to make it look less obvious next time. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Easy there cowboy. I'm not 'skirting the issue' I'm poiting out your analogy is crap. I happen to agree with you, and to be honest I cannot speak intelligently about the law, as some people have been pointing out about others. I can however see NOBODY here can speak intelligently about it because there are too many conflicting ideas and sorces. My gathered picture is this is WAY to complex of a process for some punk in his basement to waste time and money on suing some other punk in their basement for turning a green alien purple.
I can however speak to the morality of the issue, and it is of my own opinion, and thus there is no right or wrong answer. If you respect the author at all, then you respect his wishes. However, thats a double edged sword, because if the author respected the community at all he'd leave it at "I had fun making this, please credit me if you want to edit/host it someplace else". and not say "Don't ever touch my skin/model/sound/hack/ect.
In the end? no right or wrong answer, as I said. I will respect the wishes of the authors who have those wishes, and not change/edit their work and release it. I will however, practice what I beilive to be the morally sound, and right way to be an author for a mod: Let 'em have it.
Thats right....the word "Release" means "to let go" you are letting go of your work and GIVING it to other people...last I checked it wasn't wrong to pass on something or modify it to meet your needs if it dosn't do so already, but thats my own opinion and I will practice only what I preach, and not try to belittle others and change policies.
A model is a gift, plain and simple. I model because I want to learn how to in the hopes of getting involved in making games for a living. I don't model for you guys; I model for myself. I'd be pretty upset if someone were to take an ax to my chibiskulk or any of the other models I'm currently working on. And frankly, there's no reason for me to release them... I get the practice whether or not I release the final product. Releasing my models, then, is because I'm giving a gift - sharing with the community I take part in. If I don't feel that the gift is being appreciated, I'm going to stop offering it. Like Brig did.
Secondly, regarding your Corvette analogy, you said
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't see GM crying and shutting their doors because they never intended for the Corvette to have blue headlights.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perhaps not; that is their decision. However, look at Microsoft - they've designed XBox Live so a modded Xbox won't work on it, regardless of what the mod was for (sometimes it's to play pirated games, which of course is theft. Other times, however, it's to put Linux on it, which doesn't technically hurt Microsoft). Clearly they don't want people modding their system. Hell, they've offered a reward to the first person to install Linux on an Xbox without hardware modification... why? So they can alter the hardware to make it impossible!
There are plenty of products whose specs include the phrase "warranty void if owner makes modifications to product" or similar language. Clearly, these companies don't want people playing around with their product. This is not all that different.
Regarding your music industry analogy, look at Weird Al Yankovic and other parody artists. He has to secure the legal right to parody every song he borrows (I read somewhere, for instance, that Prince has never granted Yankovic the right to alter his music). Artists who perform covers of music have the same hurdles to jump. Any parody or cover you hear on the radio goes through similar hoops, and if it didn't you'd better believe it won't be on the radio for long.
In that case, the question is one of image -- the original artist may not want his work re-presented in a manner other than the one he originally intended. Copyright law respects that wish, granting the original artist legal recourse against those who would use his work without his consent.
A modeler *does* have full copyright of his/her models. Theoretically, he could pursue legal action, especially if his model is presented with the disclaimer "you agree by using this model that you will not modify it from the original in any way, shape, or form without the express permission of the author." Logistically, suing someone for a reskin is, as Luminair pointed out, not really feasible or worthwhile. Instead, we go by the honor system: if a modeler doesn't want his models changed, don't change them!
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Some of you may post work in the artwork forum from time to time. How would you feel if someone took your pencil sketch of a marine and a skulk in mortal combat, and put the skulk in a tu-tu, or colored the whole thing in neon, or turned it into some bizarre xenopornography pic? You'd be ticked. This isn't much different.
<b>Respect this community's modelers. They do an amazing amount of work for you all, and don't ask for much in return.</b> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
THANK YOU COIL
you said exactly what i meant <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
superteflon since you know how it feels dont you think you should atleast try and stop it from happening again?
In the end? no right or wrong answer, as I said. I will respect the wishes of the authors who have those wishes, and not change/edit their work and release it. I will however, practice what I beilive to be the morally sound, and right way to be an author for a mod: Let 'em have it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Said (obviously) better then I've been trying to <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
On one hand, I know my mod helped many people jumpstart their own. I liked that, and I'm sorta glad I helped others learn. But I was **** that I wasn't credited with it.
But I dont' see any models on these forums being released without a 'Credits to' phrase so the points are moot.
Look at the Penny-Arcade/American Greetings fiasco. Brief recap: Penny Arcade parodied American McGee's "Alice" and the upcoming "Oz" by creating a teaser poster of his "next project," Strawberry Shortcake. American Greetings, owners of Ms. Shortcake, threatened to sue and frankly, I've looked at the details and I believe they were in the right. It may not be *nice* of them, but it's within their rights.
I cited that example to bring up the issue of image -- an artist may not want his work represented in a manner other than what he intended. I dare say that use of an entire model for the purposes of a simple reskin wouldn't fall under the category of Fair Use.
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Clearly we're not going to agree on this. Whether or not it is your right to modify a model (it's not), you believe that a modeler shouldn't restrict users of his model in that manner. Unfortunately, beliefs and personal desires don't always hold up to the law and the greater good that it protects. The law is siding with Brig on this one, and therefore so do these forums. Respect a modeler's rights.