Charging For Hl Mod Based Maps?

WaffleSpoon · February 2004

<div class="IPBDescription">well, kreedz</div> I have been enjoying playing jumpmaps for a good while now, but just recently I realized.. hey, he is actually taking charge for making these maps..

I was and am well underway of making my own jumpmaps, but I was under the belief that there were no money to be made. I have never ever even considered taking charge for any map I've made for HL whatsoever. And I thought hammer and the HL compilation tools were freeware and thus, is not to be used in order to make money with/of/by. (sorry for poor grammer and sentences)

Please inform me what is correct and not. Can this kreedz person really do this?
If so, WHY is he doing this, it feels as if he is ripping clans and regular players off by giving them maps I honestly do not believe he spent more than a few days on making? O_o

I am also aware of that many people enjoy this, and therefore it is not my intention to ruin the fun for anyone, but I am curious as to wether this is legible or not.

I have started a project with a good friend of mine that will basically try to compete kreedz with making maps, free of charge and with alot more detail. Why? I want to map and I really dislike the idea of taking charge of art. And at that, not even expecially beautiful art :S

I am sure he is skilled, but ... still.. gah.. help me out, plz?

//Concerned =/

MrMojo · February 2004

Link to the maps/his website?

I have no idea what these maps, or the person are.

Ballisto · February 2004

I sure as hell wouldnt pay money for some crappy map like iceworld. Maaaaybe a nice map... but not a crap map.

WaffleSpoon · February 2004

<a href='http://www.kzmaps.co.uk' target='_blank'>Fansite</a>

<a href='http://www.kreedz.com' target='_blank'>Homepage</a>

UltimaGecko · February 2004

He's only requesting donations. He's not actually selling his maps (which would be illegal as I understand, as Valve has jurisdiction over Half-Life and all of the Half-Life editing tools).

I wouldn't pay for those if he was selling them, they're not all that great - although if you're in a clan without a mapper, I'm sure you could use the occasional weird map if you can't find others.

kzMC-Sk8r · February 2004

I can tell you, Kreedz makes these maps - then puts them up for "donation" if people want to donate to have "banners" and have a name of there clan or whatever in the map name ie. kz_clanname_mapname & actually own the map ( ie getting the map file itself ) - they can do so - if he doesn't get any donations he just releases the map to the public. i am sure this is perfectly legal - i own the kzmaps.co.uk website & if i thought anything was "illegal" about this community i wouldn't be wasting my time with it. tho your post was good to read about what other people think about kz maps. but jsut to rest your mind it isn't illegal at all. and his maps aren't crappy made - they are very well made for what tehy are used for - do you really care about a great looking map when all you look at is this jump infront of you? no not really - it could have black walls and people would still enjoy the map for what it is used for. anyway if you had high detailed textures it would make it alot harder to clear the bigger jumps ie cause of FPS loss and so forth - you are welcome to make your own jumping maps - but it would be alot better if your worked along side kreedz. i do belive the whole jumping map idea was his so he has the right to take "charge" of this community - unless you can prove otherwise. anyway have a good day and enjoy the maps for what they are used for not for what tehy look like bye bye

kz`MC-Sk8r head admin :: <a href='http://www.kzmaps.co.uk' target='_blank'>http://www.kzmaps.co.uk</a> :: #kzmaps

SnoopBob · February 2004

I am kz`SnoopBob a administrator of kzmaps.co.uk, most of what i was going to say has been said by kz`mc-sk8r. but may i ask why you would post such a question on the Natural Selection forums?
Edit:
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I sure as hell wouldnt pay money for some crappy map like iceworld. Maaaaybe a nice map... but not a crap map.
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Umm have you tried theese maps? completely different fromt he usual bang bang affair that makes up normal cs... these maps take skill, patience and practice to complete!

Jabba_The_Hunt · February 2004

I love the jump maps and if this is what it takes to keep them going then thats fine, though I would disagree with charging for them.

EEK · February 2004

He's requesting donations, not charging you to play them. But as a mapper, I think that that's almost as low, because mapping:

1) Doesn't cost YOU anything: everything is free. Wally is free. Hammer is free. Batch Compiler is free. NS is free. PaintShop Pro is free (for trial). Gimp is (I think) free.

2) Mapping doesn't consume enough time to warrant needing a donation. Mapping takes a long time, but unless you're a smacktard and quit your job so you can map 24 hours a day, you're not losing anything here.

3) You map because you love to.

I would in no way ever donate to this guy. He's just finding a cheap way to sucker people into throwing money at him, for absolutely no reason at all. It doesn't 'take anything' to keep a map going, besides your own dedication. And if your only motivation is getting money for nothing, you're scum.

I'm really sick of random sites charging money for everything, or people trying to reap in cash out of other people's kindness. Every program you download is now 30 day trial and pops up annoying 'BUY THIS' messages. I've even seen trainers for The Sims work for only two days, then require you to pay $20 to use it from then on, when in fact the trainer contained nothing that wasn't in others for free.

Oh and snoopbob:

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Umm have you tried theese maps? completely different fromt he usual bang bang affair that makes up normal cs... these maps take skill, patience and practice to complete!</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Those maps are eyesores. These are seriously the worst things I've ever seen shoved into a compiler.

EEK · February 2004

<a href='http://www.kreedz.com/upcoming/islandclimb.html' target='_blank'>http://www.kreedz.com/upcoming/islandclimb.html</a>

Wait look at this.

"It's already been sold."

Any more info?

Deadly_Pencil · February 2004

sure looks like he is selling them to me

Novis · February 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EEK @ Feb 28 2004, 01:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><a href='http://www.kreedz.com/upcoming/islandclimb.html' target='_blank'>http://www.kreedz.com/upcoming/islandclimb.html</a>

Wait look at this.

"It's already been sold."

Any more info?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Judging from those two pictures, I'd say it's a simple box shaped room with some random brushes placed into the walls and a square hole in the ceiling. It won't take me even 5 minutes with QuArk to create a look-alike.
Addmitted, measuring the jumping distance for the blocks along the wall may take a while, but from a mapping point of view this is not much beyond a 'my first room' tutorial lesson.

And while I despise all the cheap moneymaking attempts, it's unfortunately the way of the market - if it's trendy for cs clans to 'own' a shoebox level with their name in it and if they are willing to pay for it, I cannot really blame the mapmaker.
Besides, I have no idea about how much money we're talking about here...

Maybe the best way to counter this is for Mantiz to make his own maps the release them for free, like he intended <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' />

TriPhase · February 2004

bah, leave kreedz alone, hes not doing anything wrong.. you send him a few bucks and he puts your name in the map, something wrong there ? dont think so..

plus, his maps are the only reason why i still play cs..

weggy · February 2004

Can anyone enlighten me as to why these maps are so great? CS already comes with tons of maps, what makes these different?

For my 2 cents: Good for him. Seriously. If someone wants to pay for his maps, fine. Let them pay.

On that subject, im selling the empty bowl of chili on my desk. Any offers?

ZERG · February 2004

DONATE he said DONAT!!!!

SnoopBob · February 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>http://www.kreedz.com/upcoming/islandclimb.html

Wait look at this.

"It's already been sold."

Any more info? </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

This means someone has already doanted towards it, either way it was going to be released!

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

QUOTE
Umm have you tried theese maps? completely different fromt he usual bang bang affair that makes up normal cs... these maps take skill, patience and practice to complete!

Those maps are eyesores. These are seriously the worst things I've ever seen shoved into a compiler.
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Firstly what you quoted does not relate to the reply, i did not mention that they asteticaly pleasing, and to be honest i prefer them not to, yeah it may be a shoebox with brushs but i would rather have that then a map that gives me 30fps drop and makes it impossible to jump!

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>plus, his maps are the only reason why i still play cs.. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Yes, exact same here

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Can anyone enlighten me as to why these maps are so great? CS already comes with tons of maps, what makes these different?
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Basically you are not fighting like in normal cs (thank god), everyone is on one team (usually CT) and try's to climb to the top of the map, this is usually no easy feat, most maps require alot of skill, patience and determination. It's quite rewarding when you finally defeat the cliff you've been falling pathetically off for the last week.

Also can people please try the maps before branding them heretic? He asks for dontation's not your left foot, you dont have to pay if you dont want to and the maps will come out either way so, why complain?

If you were offered money to make a map i'm sure you would be floating a different tune...

kzMC-Sk8r · February 2004

geez - i already said it isn't about the looks - if he wanted really good graphics/textures in his maps i am sure he would do so - its about the point of the map "jumping" - thats what his maps are - jumping maps - so lets not talk about textures and brushes etc - lets talk about the thought that went into these - and how he comes up with all these different jumps - now thats what matters - people LOVE these maps & he doesn't sell tehm - he just asks for donations.. - not like he says "right i am not releasing this map till i get money for it" if he doesn't get any donations he still releases it - thats fair is it not? - good then SUYF your doing my head in seriously - grow the **** up.

AssKicR · February 2004

Climbing maps own...

Nuff said <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' />

kzbambi · February 2004

what is your prob with kreedz and his maps, belive me his maps are great fun and thats why there is a growing comunity backing him, if you dont like his maps dont play them, and he dont charge for maps if you want your clan name webby addy in the map then he asks you to donate and tbh if someone wants a map built and they want kreedz to do it why not ask for a little donation for taking up his time. so tbh back the **** up wankers <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' />

The_Cheat · February 2004

This topic should be phased to the Discussions board under the Other category. Nothing in this topic relates specifically to NS, hence it does not belong in this forum.

Novis · February 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kz`MC-Sk8r @ Feb 29 2004, 05:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>geez - i already said it isn't about the looks...[blabla+insult]</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kz`bambi @ Feb 29 2004, 06:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> what is your prob with kreedz...[blabla+insult]</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Kids, if you can't take this, don't come here just to repeat yourselves and to tell everyone with a different opinion to shut up.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>...gives me 30fps drop and makes it impossible to jump!...</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Well, yeah... I see the point: '1337' CS Clans playing on a 386 box w/Win95 and on-board graphics certainly have problems with the sheer complexity of empty levels with a couple of structures/rocks to jump on....

Novis · February 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (The Cheat @ Feb 29 2004, 06:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> This topic should be phased to the Discussions board under the Other category. Nothing in this topic relates specifically to NS, hence it does not belong in this forum.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Maybe if there would be some ns-concmaps/jumpmaps.... <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' />

okok... I'm off playing a REAL jumpmap - where's my tomraider cd again....

kzMC-Sk8r · February 2004

erm - snoopbob did point that out - blame the person that created the post <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' />

ZiGGY · February 2004

multilevel CO maps aer teh win, gimmicks also = winn4r

l3igD · February 2004

Hmm...If you donate you dont get anything in return...When you pay for something you get something in return. So when he puts your name in the map thats you getting something. And you pay him.

Haze · February 2004

I'm lost on what we're <b>arguing</b> about, it's quite silly to me. The orginal question was answered and now its turning into a flame fest.

Dont bash the maps when you havent played them (looks arent everything) and if somones bashing your map, say something in defense for it once, and dont look back, because it really isnt worth your time -- youve said what youve had to say.

Cant we all just get along?

BOBDolol · March 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (l3igD @ Feb 29 2004, 08:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Hmm...If you donate you dont get anything in return...When you pay for something you get something in return. So when he puts your name in the map thats you getting something. And you pay him.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Heh you could say the same thing about the ns constellation program

l3igD · March 2004

I pay for a very small img. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /> Yep...(Im donating in 2weeks <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' />)

coil · March 2004

Question: can he charge? Why does he?

1) I don't know Valve's stance on this, but clearly he hasn't been issued a C&D order, so either it's ok or they don't care.

2) It's been explained by several kz people exactly what he does and why. If you don't think it's good business, don't play his maps. But don't jump all over him here.

Charging For Hl Mod Based Maps?

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