Flexibility
Snidely
Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13098Members
Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13098Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Curious as to what others think.</div> Marines are fairly flexible, I think you'll agree. They can, on the whole, adapt to alien tactics. The most obvious one seems to be SC; plonk down an obs, get MT as an aid, and be willing and eager to scan. They can change to this from a more DC orientated strategy fairly easily. (Of course, it won't be as quick as if they'd planned to go against SC from the get-go, but it doesn't take too long to adapt.)
Aliens, oddly enough, seem to have a harder time adapting to marines. If you place down DC first, you're locked into it until you can get another hive up. Then (say) if the marines play very aggressively from the start, and SC would probably have been better, you just have to lump it.
Not to mention that kharaa have to anticipate what marines are going to do well in advance. If you find out that they've made an HA train, you need at least 75 res to "counter". Not just you, mind - but a few of your collegues, too. Otherwise they'll most likely forge their way towards a hive.
It's not that this makes the aliens weak - they appear (from NTfM, anyway) to be having a good time fo it. It's just that when the aliens <i>do </i>start to lose, you can feel helpless; when you realise that you and your collegues are ill-equipped to deal with the situation, your options are limited. It's frustrating.
Do you feel that the kharaa are too limited? Do you feel that it detracts from the gameplay any? If so, what do you think should be done about it (if anything can be done about it)?
(Edit: sorting out SPaG.)
Aliens, oddly enough, seem to have a harder time adapting to marines. If you place down DC first, you're locked into it until you can get another hive up. Then (say) if the marines play very aggressively from the start, and SC would probably have been better, you just have to lump it.
Not to mention that kharaa have to anticipate what marines are going to do well in advance. If you find out that they've made an HA train, you need at least 75 res to "counter". Not just you, mind - but a few of your collegues, too. Otherwise they'll most likely forge their way towards a hive.
It's not that this makes the aliens weak - they appear (from NTfM, anyway) to be having a good time fo it. It's just that when the aliens <i>do </i>start to lose, you can feel helpless; when you realise that you and your collegues are ill-equipped to deal with the situation, your options are limited. It's frustrating.
Do you feel that the kharaa are too limited? Do you feel that it detracts from the gameplay any? If so, what do you think should be done about it (if anything can be done about it)?
(Edit: sorting out SPaG.)
Comments
Really I just want to see something to make alien teching and adapting to situations easier (as was mentioned) and also to make alien assaults on marine start easier. I'm getting tired of watching a stream of onos fail to take MS from all the w3 HMGs and GL spam.
Reminds me of how we almost won ns_hera after our first reloc to cargo got smacked down hard, our 2nd reloc to hera entrance was being overrun and our 3rd reloc placed us in the little weldable alcove near datacore from which we with <i>0 RTs</i> ran down their hive. Of course, they had 1 left and 1 building - but we'd have had a real chance at winning it before some random guy hopped in the empty commchair (no point sitting in it when i might as well be helping out) and began crapping about. Feh.
Anyways, thats insane flexibility. The aliens in the same situation might have had a 1/10 chance of sneaking up an Onosegg somewhere the 'rines aren't looking and running to 'rine spawn or their relocate to force a beacon or take some valuable structures down and then run like hell - at hive 1, likely without celerity.
Or let me make a more commonplace example. A room full of lowtech 'rines (basic upgrades, but no toys) at their base <i>requires</i> higher/expensive lifeforms and at least Hive 2 to be assaulted with any success (Fades can try, but usually bases are a bit too cramped). We all know that sad as it is, just a few LMGs can kick any Onos **** in a defensive position.
On the other hand, aliens in any similiar situation are just plain screwed. Only if they start spending big on fades do they stand a chance against an assault - and even then, only if theres no HAs available yet. Sure, you can start rushing that HA train and hope to pressure it down - but the comm can still save most of it with one 15 res beacon, having a PG handy (just phase out when your armor gets low) and of course the problem that as you're down to one hive, you won't even spawn nearly fast enough to sustain much pressure.
Oh well. The bigger the game, the more shafted the aliens.
Conclusion: there should be second basic class to match the marines <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> How 'bout making lerk cost 10 res, or making some real battel gorgies? <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Please try to look further than the hard-coded counters.
Examples: Blitz kieg, a "soft counter" to the way of waging wars during the 1st world war. The "indirect strategy", in the version used by the finnish forces during the second world war against Sovjet. A smaller force defeating a greater one by separating the enemy and striking smaller parts of his units one by one.
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Damn, I just realized this had less to do with this thead than I originally thought, but anyways...
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Yes, as aliens you only have one way to win, killing the marines. But it can be done in different ways.
With DC all your troops can take punishment. This is thus the most obvious way to go. Get tough and meet the marines head on when you feel your ready. If they attack, kill them with an assault. This is an application of "the direct strategy".
If you, on the other hand, choose to use sensory chambers you dont have the tough skulks or regenerating fades. Instead of lasting long enough in battles to take out the marines with a direct attack they are now capable of killing single marines extremely quickly without taking any damage. You could use this, as Forlorn suggested in another thread, by having your fade(s) with focus delay/interrupt marines while the rest of the team is out doing "covert" operations (overt in reality, but you get my point). Strike at several points at the same time (res towers, marine sentries and patrolls) while doing field operations to slow enemies (sensory chambers) and have the main bulk of your forces delay enemy advancement towards their primary goal. This is an application of "the indirect stategy".
Sure, you can do both if you built DCs, but this is one way to deal with your situation when the initial overwhelming advantage of early SC is gone (observatories).
To sum it all up: freedom of action comes from more than just having a wide sortiment of hard-ware to use, it can also be created by tactical ideas and the correct execution of those ideas.
On a separate note, I feel that electricity is a feature that restricts a large part of the spectrum of strategies/tactics steering the play towards head-on confrontation of marine and alien forces, this is a bad thing in public play as marines for some reason always have the resources to afford it. It's a different matter during clan play though.
Me -> <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif' /><!--endemo-->
What I think would be useful is the ability to have some sort of 'beacon' like marines have. It used to be that 1-2 skulks could win by sneaking past the marines and eating their base. Now marines can beacon and call all their guys back. 1-2 marines can sneak to a hive and get a phase up, and aliens can do nothing about it. How about 'using' a hive makes it act as an MC, but only to hives that are under attack.
What I think would be useful is the ability to have some sort of 'beacon' like marines have. It used to be that 1-2 skulks could win by sneaking past the marines and eating their base. Now marines can beacon and call all their guys back. 1-2 marines can sneak to a hive and get a phase up, and aliens can do nothing about it. How about 'using' a hive makes it act as an MC, but only to hives that are under attack. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd rather take away that new ability of the observatory. It definately takes away a huge amount of options and "dumbs down" the game.
Giving the aliens the same option through the hive would have the opposite effect, it would <i>take away</i> versatility as keeping watch of your hives would be less important.
Away with the teleportation effect of the observatory I say. MC should keep their ability, as it actually is the main reason to get the chamber in the first place.
I didn't mean to imply that the chamber system was the only problem.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Please try to look further than the hard-coded counters.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All right then - another inflexible aspect of kharaa is that you have to choose between being a warrior and being a builder. If you want to go (say) fade as soon as possible, you can't afford to spend res. If you want to build stuff for your team, you spend your res gorging. This is all fine and good, but it means that if you suddenly find the need for more fighters, you can't adjust quickly. And if you need more builders, you have to hope that you won't need higher lifeforms any time soon.
Marines don't have any such problem. One guy places the building down wherever he wants, and all the others can build it. The current gorge system can't match that.
The other way round marines that eliminated most of the alien team in a few lucky seconds, have invaluable time to get RTs, press onto the hives or get into a got position.
If aliens are doing teh usual thing (almost half of the team gorges at start) and the skulks loose the battle aliens are almost screwed, if the marines managed to go for the Rts already built by those gorges..
I agree with snidely that aliens feel somewhat inflexible compared to marines.
I have to add, that aliens still win easily and they get a good chance in most matches, but they "feel" like some server lag sometimes. Hive sight and hive "voice" should make aliens more flexible, but gorging, evolving, res situation and hive requirements change all that.
Lance
/me loves to play aliens..
just my 2cents
I'd still keep one "primary" chamber type per hive. But allow non-primary chambers to be built at an increased cost. Say, 15-20 res per chamber.
That would add some tactical complexity to the game, without significantly reducing the alien team's dependance on hives.
basicly
You can get any chamber or ability upgrade for a cost of 25 rez
Need bile bomb? for 25 rez you can yourself have it.
Need Regen and Movement, and Stomp.
You cannot get an upgrade if you already have one from the same chamber. IE no carspace and regen
if you already have the chamber. it only costs two rez
10 res: Gorge
30 res: Lerk
35 res: Gorge w/ Bile Bomb
Of course, the benefits of having just 1 or 2 of a chamber would have to change...instead of getting less upgrade for the same price, you would have to get the same upgrade for more of a price. Say, 25--15--8--2 cost depending on the number of chambers you have.
No, Aliens should actually keep an eye on their hives and not let the entire team stay on one half of the map for minutes on end...
No, Aliens should actually keep an eye on their hives and not let the entire team stay on one half of the map for minutes on end...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed.
For the same reason I feel that the marine observatory teleportation-effect should be removed.
Snidely - as I said half-way through the post, my respons didnt have too much in common with the subject of the thread... but when I've written that much I wont just delete it. Nevah. The post should perhaps best be treated as a general rant.