Marines Last Longer In End Of Game Battle
menohack
Join Date: 2004-02-29 Member: 26995Members
Join Date: 2004-02-29 Member: 26995Members
from my experience of playing the NS 3.0 beta 3 I have found that the marines last much longer than aliens do when they are surrounded in their base. Sometimes they can last up to 30 minutes, while the best for aliens seems to be 1/3 that. I think this is because marines spawn faster than aliens because marines can have 3 ips while aliens only have the 1 hive they're in. Also, the turrets of the marines are very powerful in numbers and its easier to farm them because one single person doesnt have to put out the res, the commander can. Ocs are also a bit weak now. Another reason why marines beat aliens faster is beacuse they can seige the hive from somewhere else, and there's nothing the aliens can do about it. The marines have projectile weapons, and consequently they last longer in larger marine spawns (example: ns_metal) and they can hide far away from the entrances and shoot the aliens before they get close. eventually the aliens win because more people become fade and onos, but because of how much res the comm gets he can sometimes give out HMGs and HAs from the resources aquired in the time they are holding out in their base. I think one way to fix this problem might be to increase the spawn times slightly, and possible create a type of seige turret for the aliens. But it would be a scaled down version, basically only used to end the games that seem to last forever.
i hope you appreciate my input.
i hope you appreciate my input.
Comments
Marines can siege out walls of lame. Aliens have nothing remotely comparable to siege. Not that aliens should get a 'siege chamber' really, that doesn't fit the game world. But stronger hive three weapons and aliens that weren't so weak vs. L3 weapons would be a godsend for ending these long games faster.
Bilebomb does have a pretty decent range, and if the ceiling is high enough, I'll go into "Mortar Gorge" mode. Since you don't have to see what your hitting anymore to deal damage, I'll just run in with Clerity, lob 4-5 BB's into the base from as far away as I can, and run out. As there's usually an Onos or Fade hitting the base at the same time, I'm relativly well covered, and if a marine does try to chase me down, I've already pre-laid a web strand or two to slow him down, and will have an OC/DC/MC/SC nest set up as close as possible.
So while base busting turtled marines as gorge is a bit tough, with a little persistance you can whittle them down.
This is still a problem however. Losing marines are FAR more powerful than losing aliens. Not to mention that losing as rines is far more fun as well.
I'd say that the major problems are a lack of power from three hive abilities, Onos that are weaker than they've ever been, marine tech doesn't need any map control and marine bases are wide open areas with few entry points making it easy to mow down aliens.
There are other factors too. Being able to pick up dropped heavy weapons is one. A common place for marines to set up an Alamo is marine start on Tanith. That's an easy one to defend. The narrow halls make GL spam easy and aliens constantly block each other. You can set up sieges and keep the walkway outside clear (and usually kill a few gorges while you're at it). All of the tech structures can go up on the little platform making them inaccessable to bilebomb, xenocide and onos.
Bilebomb rushes are a good way to clear out turrets and other low HP structures if you can organize one, but a lot of the team is usually already onos, fades and lerks.
Actually, the new pathetic armor plays no difference in the amount of damage a gorge can take. According to one of the changelogs, they lowered the armor not because of the gorge was to strong; But, because the gorge was dying with extra armor. Unless, of course they changed the armor again recently; I haven't played Natural Selection in months <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Now responding to the original poster, you should take charge and tell your team to stop feeding the marine team with resource for kills; organize the team with the right amount lifeforms needed; and then have one coordinated rush with Onos charging, Fades blinking, Lerks using umbra, Skulks using xeno, and gorges healing.
In other words, breaking a "turtling" marine base is next to impossible.
Shotguns (10 res) and HMG (15 res) can make Lerk (30 res), Fade (50 res) and Onos (75 res) hurt plenty. Although alone they can be taken out easily, <b><i>team work</i></b> on marines' side make aliens look wimpy. On the other hand, alien teamwork tools (umbera, p.scream, xeno, stomp, spore) have been nerfed, and nerfed again. This is the primary reason why lone aliens seem to work effectively, yet large groups are easily overcomed by organised marine squads (esp in defensive positions).
Give Kharaas team-power I say!
(BTW Would the admin <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo--> increase the emoticons limit please? I couldn't even put 5 of them in this post)
The minute you take the marines' arms lab down you win. It's as simple as that. You get the arms lab down and the next time you hit their base you're against level 0 weapons with oni and fades. Those marines can then do half the damage they could before (or something equally vastly different) and you're virtually regenerating faster than they can hurt you (as onos). Add some umbra in there and you're laughing.
People always go for the IPs, TF and obs. Go for the arms lab first and you'll find you'll crack that base a hell of a lot quicker.
1.) Marine upgrades. This is the big one. Marines don't need a single node to keep these upgrades once they've researched them, so once they're pinned they usually have L3 weapons and armor and the arms lab is well secured in the back of the base(though more aliens need to understand that the arms lab should be the first target, if marines lose it the game is over for them). When aliens are down to one hive, on the other hand, they're about as strong as they were at the beginning of the game(at best, they have all 9 upgrade chambers in that hive, but usually they'll lose some), and the marines can slaughter them.
2.) Droppable weapons. The comm can make a small investment on a couple of HMGs and tell the marines not to leave base with them and they will never disappear. This handful of HMGs can make the base basically impenetrable to any alien except possibly an umbraed Onos who only targets the very closest structures. If an alien manages to scrape together the res for a Fade or Onos to defend the hive, he'll usually be killed and he'll certainly never get that opportunity again for the rest of the game.
3.) Grenades. These are just sickeningly effective against units, and they make getting a Gorge in there to bile bomb near impossible. There's also an exploit which I won't mention that gives GLs instant reload... Why is the anti-structure weapon so good at suppressing units?
4.) 3 Hive abilities have been thoroughly nerfed ever since 2.0's release. Xeno's blast damage(double vs. structures) was removed. Primal Scream's duration and range are much too short. Acid rocket is absolutely terrible. Charge doesn't do crap to structures anymore. All of these abilities were perfect for base destruction back when they worked; what happened to them?
I find that the grenade launcer (among other things) is terribly unbalencing. You get 2 grenade launcers to (in turns) spam a single hallway, and anything short of an onos or a blinking fade stands no chance of getting through, and they won't survive much longer after that.
While I agree that the Arms Lab should have a higher priority to be destroyed, I find that a new one will go up in a matter of seconds. The RFK that the marines get from all the suicide attempts at it are enough to pay for a new one.
Not that I've EVER seen 4 skulks coordinate a Xeno rush...so no complaints about it being overpowered.
I belive that what has happened with hive 3 abilities is simply to give the marines a chance to live and make a comeback even if the aliens manage to get three hives... ie, locking down a single hive isn't quite the requirement it was in 1.04.
The biggest effect of hive 3 now is to unlock the last chamber and get 20% more armor... the abilities isn't much to write home about, apart from nerfed web which still fairly useful, even though the webtime has been cut with 60%.
I belive that what has happened with hive 3 abilities is simply to give the marines a chance to live and make a comeback even if the aliens manage to get three hives... ie, locking down a single hive isn't quite the requirement it was in 1.04.
The biggest effect of hive 3 now is to unlock the last chamber and get 20% more armor... the abilities isn't much to write home about, apart from nerfed web which still fairly useful, even though the webtime has been cut with 60%. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's one of the problems. Few and far between are the games where aliens get 3 hives and lockdown marine start, and then the marines fight their way out and secure victory. They don't happen now, with the uber weak 3rd hive abilities. They wouldn't happen with stronger 3rd hive abilities either, but at least aliens would have an easier time ending the game in a timely fashion.
This is, easily, my number one complaint with NS right now. Breaking a base of turtling marines <i>sucks</i>. It's not fun, it's not exciting, and it shouldn't be in the game.
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But why should the marines HAVE a comeback channel at all? If the aliens have three hives, they have achieved their goal of map control. This is apparently what the aliens are about, since their tech is all based on map control. They should now be able to push their way in to marine start and finish the game. Sure, the marines can still ninja a siege station or just a PG and a load of shotguns and take down a hive. That's their comeback channel, if they need one.
Do aliens have a comeback channel? If the marines have you down to one hive and they're prepared to siege, is there really anything you can do about it? I mean, a serious comeback, not a 'LOL that gorge just dropped satcomm' comeback where the hive goes back down as soon as marines see fit to wander over there or just give it a few pings with the already set up siege base. One hive aliens are very weak, and by this time in the game they really have no chance against even vanilla marines. So aliens have no real comeback chances.
Why do marines deserve one?
Skulks could be made exempt from motion tracking. Dictionary reference to the word 'skulk' is "To move about stealthily." Their small size could be the logical reason for the exemption. This would help skulks super duper bigtime immensely.
Chamber upgrades could cost only 1 res, making skulk upgrades something economical enough to be worth it. You could just tack on the other res point if you gestate to a higher form. Or an even better idea is to let skulk upgrades persist though death (similar to the way rine upgrades are), being that skulks die constantly, this would give them reason to have upgrades.
Another alien structure, smaller than a hive and one that can be built anywhere (for something like 30 res) that increases the alien spawn rate by 1. Aliens spawn way too slow with 1 hive, this would definately help. And it would mainly benefit skulks, as higher life forms won't be (at least not on purpose) needing to respawn as much.
Electrical defences need to be toned down, it doesn't dissuade any alien other than skulk anyways. With ED doing the damage it does... at the range it does... to two targets... it seriously kills any kind of skulk assult on marine structures, even with a large team of skulks working together.
Marine siege is too quick and easy to set up for the amount of damage it can do (several hundred res worth of alien structures gone in a minute). It really prevents any alien retaliation unless they just all happen to be there at that moment. Plus the splash damage from siege killing alien players... that's bad, m'kay.
There are balance issues with aliens and marines, and aliens are really on the bad side of the deal. Somethings gotta change. <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo-->
When an alien is killed, any evolutions he took get dropped as some sort of gooey fungus pile. Aliens walking over them who don't already have that type of evolution can pick it up instantly.
Kind of analagous to marines dropping their weapons.
Yeah.. I know.. crazy idea.
Thought it might be neat for a second though.. never mind.