Lerk Idea
rope
Join Date: 2003-09-17 Member: 20954Members
Join Date: 2003-09-17 Member: 20954Members
this is just an idea, but what would you guys think if lerk spores were replaced with the old spikes? Ya i know, spores do area damage and people just love painting rooms green with the stuff even when there are only heavies there. But the nice thing about spikes are that it gives more umph to the lerk in the late game.. spikes have a better chance killing lights and even did pretty good against heavies. Plus, it always gave a slim chance of recoving a hive in the late game after a 2 hive lockdown.. It didn't always work but now and then one or 2 lerks could sneak close to a hive and knock out the phase and turret factory, opening up the game for a possible comeback.
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I think it was Savant who proposed that lerks get spikes back in slot2, spore comes back as the hive 3 deathcloud and primal scream gets moved to gorge. The gorge gives up spit entirely, healspray gets moved to slot1 and primal becomes the new gorge slot2 ability.
Where would gorge have primal scream tho, slot 2 ??
Bite, Spike, Umbra, Spores sounds perfect for lerk...
But primal scream would have to be a 1st hive ability, (cant have bilebombs or webs any earlier than they are tbh) perhaps a bit overpowered??
I dunno, I like the idea, but I doubt it will ever see the light of day <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
With primal scream the gorge would become a great support alien, and when they finished spending their res they could actually HELP out in battles instead of being useless. They would still be vulnerable though.
Spikes on the lerk would make them far more valuable in games where you need to peck away at marine lockdowns on a one hive sitation.
Regards,
Savant
wouldnt moving healspray to slot1 prolong alien losses (2 gorges in vent healing each other and/or their DCs)??
im pretty sure that is why it is slot2 in the first place, but who knows for sure.
my $.02
anyway....
i like the idea of getting spikes
gonna have to host a LAN server with cheats to try it with the new flight model
(give weapon_spikegun)
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I like it but one thing should be changed. Spore cloud should damage HA (maybe slowly digest the armor) or nobody would ever use it. That way primal scream would actually be used and gorges would become even more important (I don't see what is wrong with that - teamwork is good).
I think the most important point of spikes is destroying marine outposts. Right now aliens need fades or onos to break bases because sentries kill skulks in a few seconds. Bring back the powersilo lerk! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
What you could do is
Gorge:
0 hive: Grappling web
1 hive: Healspray
2 hive: Primal scream
3 hive: Bilebomb
Lerk:
0 hive: Bite
1 hive: Poison gas
2 hive: Spore
3 hive: Umbra
Thus making the 3rd hive the most important of both classes (Umbra and bilebomb being the most important of both classes, argueably). Additionally, the gorge gets a grappling hook that, when it's got focus, doubles it's range. This lets it get into vents without working with a lerk and allows it to escape marines early on. You can also add on a small amount of damage (say 20 damage) and a freeze like regular web if a marine gets hit by it (although it is slow moving) to give the regular web feel, and it'd have to use a lot of energy like parasite.
I'v personally thought primal scream was a rather useless ability, especially in pubs. Personally I'd leave the gorge as-is, remove primal scream, move umbra to 3rd hive and add spore in for 2nd hive.
what is the problem with this ?
I think two skulks and one gorge should be able to kill electrified rt, not you ?
If marines let three aliens get near the rt, the rt should be lost.
For the healing problem (gorges healing each other with no hive), i don't think healing give enough health to make them alive for long, and actually some stupid can always build one or two dcs in a ventilation and stay there, we can't stop everything without admins :/
btw i like the idea of primal scream on the gorge, this will really make him a support unit not only a building unit designed to stay hidden behind the front lines like it is now.
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It would still take a long while. Primal scream lasts about five seconds, so needs constant use - PSing lerks, atm, use up a lot of energy to effectively boost the team. Healspraying is also an energy hog. It would probably be quicker to just keep healspraying.
And skulks/gorges should be able to take down electrified RT's, but with primal and healspray the gorge becomes the ultamate early on support unit for that and then not only taking them down gets faster but you also get the problem where a single gorge turns a bunch of skulks chewing on a TF, PG, or RT into locusts of biblical proportions. Not to mention what happens if 5 or 6 marines phase while some primaled skulks are chewing, much less what happens if those skulks also have focus and aren't effected as much by adrenaline drain.
Primal scream in slot 2 will not make the gorge too powerful. Primal scream takes adrenaline, and so does healspray. A hive 1 gorge will be LONG out of adrenaline after one scream and a half-dozen sprays. You try it (with a lerk giving the scream and a non-adren gorge giving heal-spray until they are half out of adrenaline and see how fast the node comes down - it won't be a significant difference from a gorge heal-spraying a skulk now without primal scream when they take down nodes)
Focus heal-spray won't make a difference either since they still won't have the adrenaline for it. If they do have a movment chamber, and they also have sensory, then they won't have defense chambers and that means the team is gimped.
Gorges are VERY easy to kill, as are skulks. With no gorge weapon the gorges would be sitting ducks, so please don't tell me that marines are afraid of a gorge that has no offensive weapon. That's just plain silly.
Regards,
Savant
What it does is make the gorge more a support class, and gives them something to do when not building. However, it also puts them in the line of fire, and means they will likely get killed more often. It's a trade-off, and I think it's a fair one.
Regards,
Savant
Gorge 1: Oh shiz
*hits primal, begins focus healspraying
*Gorge 2 does the same
64 damage per spray, someodd healing per spray, dead marine in 3-4 seconds.
Then there's the gorge rush...
Or we can simply make focus have no effect on heal-spray. No muss, no fuss, since heal-spray is not considered an offensive weapon, it would not benefit from heal-spray.
People need to think more about solutions instead of problems.
Regards,
Savant
and savant is right you guys need to think of stuff to help. you all like to point out flaws without giving solutions. it doesnt make you look smart it just makes you look like an ****
And making the gorge completly defenseless isn't a good idea. I don't like spit personally, I think it's a useless ability like charge or primal scream and it needs to be replaced with something more entertaining.
1) The aliens have sensory chambers, which leaves them at a disadvantage (in my opinion) for later.
2) The marines have ranged weapons, and heal spray doesn't have a huge range. So just stay at a relative distance enough to do damage and avoid getting sprayed.
3) Energy, Energy, Energy. It's not like the Gorge is some special class that does not require energy. One primal screen will effectively drain the Gorge of its energy, and this means no healspray.
4) If there is still that issue with focused, adrenaline, healing spraying gorges, well the aliens won't have defense, unless of course they have three hives. And I think a lot of people know how difficult it is to win without defense chambers.
5) Referring to the ability to destroy resource towers faster, as stated earlier, I also doubt the increase in time will be significant. And even then, the aliens are using teamwork and teamwork should be able to "own" a resource tower.
If it turns out to be too unbalancing, then the power of primal scream could be toned down. Though even as it is right now, primal scream is barely used even when aliens have all three hives. Umbra is just a superior tool over scream when you're a support lerk.
The only time I see primal scream used is when all of the marines are already dead and the command chair needs to be pried open. Lerk could get spikes back to fill up the space that is opened. If the developers think spikes are too powerful, they can make it the lerk's third hive weapon. That way, the lerk could umbra the marines for the team and pick some off at a distance at the end of the game.
Gorge 1: Oh shiz
*hits primal, begins focus healspraying
*Gorge 2 does the same
64 damage per spray, someodd healing per spray, dead marine in 3-4 seconds.
Then there's the gorge rush... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
FCC already addressed most of the points I wanted to bring up, but there's one he forgot.
Even with primal scream on, a gorge would not do 64 damage per spray. He'd do 33% more than normal, which would mean about 42 damage per spray with focus and scream combined.
As FCC pointed out, this wouldn't matter much since primal scream without adrenaline depletes you of most of your energy in one scream.
A gorge rush seems really rare now. I've only seen one recently. The counter was the following:
1. Slowly walk away. The gorges are too fat and slow to keep up, and the range of healspray is quite short.
2. Grab all RTs on the map, since it takes the gorges a long time to kill the structures at your base.
3. Lock down and relocate to a hive or double. Whichever you prefer.
4. Kill the one or two alien RTs that may have been put up. The aliens should have almost no res or res flow after you do this.
5. Build 4 TFs under their hive and then electrify them. Or whatever method of hive destruction you prefer to end the game.
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If you'd actually bother to see what primal scream does, you'd know that primal scream gives you INCREASED ENERGY FLOW for 5 seconds.
Therefore, it gives the basic gorge unlimited energy.
If is was altered and balanced to fit the gorge perfectly, then all would be good, but even if no altering was done it would give gorges a boost that they need, it could enable them to escape from lone rines, and improve gorge healing, also making SC a bit more viable at the start instead of DC since a focus healspraying gorge with primal scream would probably be as good as regen...
CBA to work out the numbers, hope someone else does it for me ^_^
Therefore, it gives the basic gorge unlimited energy. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
What if you changed it so that the user didn't recieve any benefits from the screaming (just those around him)? That way, he could do one or the other for longer, but could only sustain both for short periods of time.
Therefore, it gives the basic gorge unlimited energy. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What if you changed it so that the user didn't recieve any benefits from the screaming (just those around him)? That way, he could do one or the other for longer, but could only sustain both for short periods of time. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
What about gorge gangs?
Say you have 4 gorges, one primal screams and now you have gorges that heal each other so fast you can't deal enough damage with your LMG to even pick off one. In fact, it'd probably take shotguns to kill these suckers.
Basic skulks who are moving faster may also be too much for marines to handle.
Still, having primal scream for a hive 1 ability in the gorge class is a valid idea.
Right now primal scream is one of the most underused abilities in the game.
It would be cool to try out.
I agree with some points. Bite - Spikes - Umbra - Spore is clearly the ideal weapon layout for a Lerk. Spikes will be harder to use with the new flight system, cause you cant strafe while flying anymore, but thats not really a bad thing. You just will have to land to use it effectively. Or you can dive on a target spiking, softening his armor before you bite.
Another good thing is, the <a href='http://www.natural-selection.org/images/level3_concept2_8x6.jpg' target='_blank'>Lerk concept</a> and <a href='http://www.natural-selection.org/images/lev3a_8x6.jpg' target='_blank'>model</a> will be respected again. For now, it seems that Lerks only have spikes on the model, so skulks can use it as a toothpick to remove marine parts from their mouth <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
And at last, it's a detail, but a little birdie shouldn't be able to scream like a tyrannosaurus rex. Just my opinion.
But to give the gorge primal scream, and as a hive 1 ability, i say no. Theres too many problems with that. Pack of skulks on crack in the early game (200% damage output with NO drawback, you'll be in chunks before even touching the gorge), non-stop uber healing spray... and much much more already mentioned in this thread. And, sorry, but i don't agree when you say that spit is useless. When a marine come to snipe one of your oc, spit is your only choice at long range as a gorge (and it works!).
Primal scream is way too powerful for a hive 1 ability.
So instead of only looking at problems, here's MySolution: <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
- Give the Lerk the proposed weapon layout; Bite - Spikes - Umbra - Spores and <i>possibly</i> make it so the spores hurts heavy marines again. So spores, wich would be a third hive ability, will still have a use in the endgame. Spores currently damage your armor when you are a light marine, and after all it's sort of an acid cloud that should do some damage, gas mask or not (maybe half, or 66% to heavies).
- Get rid of the third hive ability of the fade, acid rocket, and replace it with primal scream. Just watch the <a href='http://www.natural-selection.org/downloads.html' target='_blank'>NS trailer</a> <i>again</i>. The last scene with the fade... screaming (heh)... it's just scary. Marines would fear fades again. Walking in a corridor with your HA and a friend *proceed to waypoint!*, you suddently hear a primal scream and stop... You know it isnt a little birdie that die in a shotgun blast but a dreadful fade and that you really have to watch your back...
Before you proceed to flame (eheh) , let me bring up some points;
- We can't give primal scream so early in the game for balance reasons.
- Unfortunately, to give spikes back to the Lerk and keep primal scream in the game, we need to get rid of one ability somewhere.
- Acid rocket is rarely used, and now with the half-damage/half-energycost, it's really a weak third hive ability that isn't much fun to use.
- I realise the tentacle on the concept on the fade is there for acid rocket, but it can be used for primal scream too (see trailer!), maybe by modifying the animation a bit.
- The fade is currently a rambo unit. Lerks can umbra, gorges can healspray, onos can stomp, skulks can.. well.. parasite, and the fade doesn't have any "team-oriented" ability. Sure it can do and soak some damage, take out elec rt's, but nothing wich gives a benefit to the team in a combat situation.
- So much more but this post is getting long.
I'm curious to hear what you all think of this idea. Discuss, flame, do something. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
It may seem like it would be stronger, but it SHOULD be stronger since the idea is that you are rewarding people for working together. That's the entire point of primal scream to begin with, people get a benefit for working together. Why do you want to negate that? It would also make it possible to break a two hive lockdown, something that is nearly impossible at present.
Primal scream on a fade would needlessly pull the fade's third hive weapon and replace it with something that would no longer benefit the team. Primal scream is a TEAM weapon, but fades are never in a group, they blink in and out, so other aliens wouldn't benefit from primal scream at all, and it would be basically as it is now on the lerk. Underused.
People need to remember that the early game gorge is EXTREMELY vulnerable. Skulks nearby or not, it is very easy to pick off a gorge and then that's 10 res down the drain. Bile bomb and web are a lot more damaging to the marine team than primal scream is.
Regards,
Savant