Identified Alien 'overpowered' Aspect?
EEK
Join Date: 2004-02-25 Member: 26898Banned
Join Date: 2004-02-25 Member: 26898Banned
It seems to be common agreement that aliens are winning most games, because of fade rush / onos midgame ownage.
So I'm thinking: Why? Why are these STILL powerful, even after every attack for them has been nerfed to worthlessness?
I think I figured it out.
First of all, the lifeforms aren't cheap. This right away limits the alien tech to skulks, lerks, and gorges in the early game. So therefore, since the fades / onos are going to show up middle game, they need to be able to survive middle game marines. However, these lifeforms also need to be balanced so they don't overpower early game (something that, hypocritically, was never even CONSIDERED for HA/Jetpacks. Why are onos and fades able to be downed by super-cheap, early game weapons in mere shots, but early game weapons don't stand a chance against HA?)
Secondly, the lifeforms take a lot of time to gestate, and can easilly be put down as an egg. This would be akin to having to wait for each suit of HA to be built (which would not be wholey unfair).
These both mean that if an alien team is on the defensive (ie: losing) they almost will certainly lose the game. It takes far too long to gestate to a lifeform that will only be able to, with luck, kill a few marines before they win. That is, if your egg doesn't get killed.
However, to justify the steep cost and gestating time, these critters are quite powerful. A good fade can surpress a marine team, and even win the game by taking out the base. The same can be said of onos (to a lesser degree... onos are horribly outgunned vs. lategame marines).
So what's the problem?
1) If you survive and can put up the res, you now have a tool of mass annihilation.
2) This tool was strengthened to compensate for that, so you can do more damage, longer.
3) Living longer means more kills. More kills means more resources.
So you have all these superpower critters running around killing marines. They're designed to NOT DIE. But when you finally kill one, do you cheer? No. Because chances are that critter has had OVER 100 res for the last few minutes, and he's now at the hive egging again. Repeat until the aliens win.
So basically, like when the marines are winning, when aliens are winning, it can be an exercise in futility.
Basically, it'd be interesting to see what'd happen if fades and onos took only seconds to gestate to, were much cheaper, but were much weaker as well. That way the fade and onos wouldn't be "magic special exemptions", they'd be the jetpacks / heavies of the alien team. Imagine your team being able to surprise the heavy train with an ambush of fades (something that is almost impossible to do now). Your forces got cut down, so you retalliate with an onslaught of onos. It sorta sucks how it is now: "OMG ONOS DONT DIE! NO, ONOS DIED, GG!" When the marines lose a heavy train, is it game over? HA! Hardly!
So summed up: give the alien team more flexibility, at the expense of fades and onos being supertanks they are now. I imagine the fade being much weaker, gestating in just a few seconds, but costing only 25 or 30 res. "But EEK", you say, "that'd be impossible, an onslaught of fades at the start of the game!"
So reduce the cost of gorges (in fact, gorging should be free) and the cost of alien RTs to around 8 (which should be cheaper ANYWAY. They're inferior in every way to marine RTs. They're weaker, they're easier to kill, and they're bigger targets). Start the aliens with only 8 resources.
(Yes, lerks would also need changing. In fact, they might be able to stay the same, as an alternative to fades)
Just some thinking I've been doing. It'd be interesting to see how this would play out...
So I'm thinking: Why? Why are these STILL powerful, even after every attack for them has been nerfed to worthlessness?
I think I figured it out.
First of all, the lifeforms aren't cheap. This right away limits the alien tech to skulks, lerks, and gorges in the early game. So therefore, since the fades / onos are going to show up middle game, they need to be able to survive middle game marines. However, these lifeforms also need to be balanced so they don't overpower early game (something that, hypocritically, was never even CONSIDERED for HA/Jetpacks. Why are onos and fades able to be downed by super-cheap, early game weapons in mere shots, but early game weapons don't stand a chance against HA?)
Secondly, the lifeforms take a lot of time to gestate, and can easilly be put down as an egg. This would be akin to having to wait for each suit of HA to be built (which would not be wholey unfair).
These both mean that if an alien team is on the defensive (ie: losing) they almost will certainly lose the game. It takes far too long to gestate to a lifeform that will only be able to, with luck, kill a few marines before they win. That is, if your egg doesn't get killed.
However, to justify the steep cost and gestating time, these critters are quite powerful. A good fade can surpress a marine team, and even win the game by taking out the base. The same can be said of onos (to a lesser degree... onos are horribly outgunned vs. lategame marines).
So what's the problem?
1) If you survive and can put up the res, you now have a tool of mass annihilation.
2) This tool was strengthened to compensate for that, so you can do more damage, longer.
3) Living longer means more kills. More kills means more resources.
So you have all these superpower critters running around killing marines. They're designed to NOT DIE. But when you finally kill one, do you cheer? No. Because chances are that critter has had OVER 100 res for the last few minutes, and he's now at the hive egging again. Repeat until the aliens win.
So basically, like when the marines are winning, when aliens are winning, it can be an exercise in futility.
Basically, it'd be interesting to see what'd happen if fades and onos took only seconds to gestate to, were much cheaper, but were much weaker as well. That way the fade and onos wouldn't be "magic special exemptions", they'd be the jetpacks / heavies of the alien team. Imagine your team being able to surprise the heavy train with an ambush of fades (something that is almost impossible to do now). Your forces got cut down, so you retalliate with an onslaught of onos. It sorta sucks how it is now: "OMG ONOS DONT DIE! NO, ONOS DIED, GG!" When the marines lose a heavy train, is it game over? HA! Hardly!
So summed up: give the alien team more flexibility, at the expense of fades and onos being supertanks they are now. I imagine the fade being much weaker, gestating in just a few seconds, but costing only 25 or 30 res. "But EEK", you say, "that'd be impossible, an onslaught of fades at the start of the game!"
So reduce the cost of gorges (in fact, gorging should be free) and the cost of alien RTs to around 8 (which should be cheaper ANYWAY. They're inferior in every way to marine RTs. They're weaker, they're easier to kill, and they're bigger targets). Start the aliens with only 8 resources.
(Yes, lerks would also need changing. In fact, they might be able to stay the same, as an alternative to fades)
Just some thinking I've been doing. It'd be interesting to see how this would play out...
Comments
Most of their attacks are still quite powerful.
<span style='color:gray'>First of all, the lifeforms aren't cheap. This right away limits the alien tech to skulks, lerks, and gorges in the early game. So therefore, since the fades / onos are going to show up middle game, they need to be able to survive middle game marines. However, these lifeforms also need to be balanced so they don't overpower early game (something that, hypocritically, was never even CONSIDERED for HA/Jetpacks. Why are onos and fades able to be downed by super-cheap, early game weapons in mere shots, but early game weapons don't stand a chance against HA?)</span>
Skulks can take down bad HA just as easily as lmg marines can down a fade. Easier in fact becuase the HA cannot blink or regen. Also HA requires considerable time and resources to aquire before it can be deployed,
<span style='color:gray'>Secondly, the lifeforms take a lot of time to gestate, and can easilly be put down as an egg. This would be akin to having to wait for each suit of HA to be built (which would not be wholey unfair).</span>
You have to wait for a proto and for the research to be done. If you have 50res as com you cannot simply generate a HA marine you have to wait a long time and build all the nessessary equipment, you also have to protect that equipment and not lose control of the maps key locations while your waiting. Also you must choose HA or JP and you cannot introduce both at the same time without a huge hit to your resources. While your soon-to-be fade will pick a nice safe protected area to gestate. If he has any sense.
<span style='color:gray'>These both mean that if an alien team is on the defensive (ie: losing) they almost will certainly lose the game. It takes far too long to gestate to a lifeform that will only be able to, with luck, kill a few marines before they win. That is, if your egg doesn't get killed.</span>
Combacks from either side are hard and unlikely once you get to a crtain point. They should be however when aliens have 2 hives they generally win from that point. If marines have full tech and two hives then they are 80% likely to win and they should be. Unfortunately the 3 onos scenario means that aliens can have a good chance of a come back even after such a diabolical thrashing.
<span style='color:gray'>However, to justify the steep cost and gestating time, these critters are quite powerful. A good fade can surpress a marine team, and even win the game by taking out the base. The same can be said of onos (to a lesser degree... onos are horribly outgunned vs. lategame marines).</span>
Yes ok,
<span style='color:gray'>So you have all these superpower critters running around killing marines. They're designed to NOT DIE. But when you finally kill one, do you cheer? No. Because chances are that critter has had OVER 100 res for the last few minutes, and he's now at the hive egging again. Repeat until the aliens win.
So basically, like when the marines are winning, when aliens are winning, it can be an exercise in futility.</span>
it really does depend on what you class as winning but it is good that games end.
<span style='color:gray'>Basically, it'd be interesting to see what'd happen if fades and onos took only seconds to gestate to, were much cheaper, but were much weaker as well. That way the fade and onos wouldn't be "magic special exemptions", they'd be the jetpacks / heavies of the alien team. Imagine your team being able to surprise the heavy train with an ambush of fades (something that is almost impossible to do now). Your forces got cut down, so you retalliate with an onslaught of onos. It sorta sucks how it is now: "OMG ONOS DONT DIE! NO, ONOS DIED, GG!" When the marines lose a heavy train, is it game over? HA! Hardly!</span>So you replace the fade with a walking lerk and the onos with a biting gorge? I agree that fades and onos need to be reworked from the ground up but they doo need to remain the mid game and end game creatures. I think what needs to be done is lessen the learning curve on the fade so it is more effective than a skulk for a newbie (currently its just a waste of res) and so that a skilled player does not become a god with it. This basically boils down to blink which we have already discussed to death and come up with many good solid ideas that as far as I know have been completely ignored. Then there's the onos which has currently two problems, stomp (also known as 'dont play for a second I want to kill you) and devour, (also known as Onos AWP). Both these attacks are wrong. The could be many replacements for Stomp, prehaps an acid spray that blinds or a headbut that knocks the held gun out of the marines hands. Same with devour. Why not?
<span style='color:gray'>
So reduce the cost of gorges (in fact, gorging should be free) and the cost of alien RTs to around 8 (which should be cheaper ANYWAY. They're inferior in every way to marine RTs. They're weaker, they're easier to kill, and they're bigger targets). Start the aliens with only 8 resources.</span>
No gorging should not be free, used properly a gorge is the reason an alien team will win. Marine RT's do not regenerate. Alien RT's also give out more total res than marines RT's.
<span style='color:gray'>(Yes, lerks would also need changing. In fact, they might be able to stay the same, as an alternative to fades)</span>
The lerk is perfect dont try to replace it. Although I cant remember how much it costs...
<span style='color:gray'>Just some thinking I've been doing. It'd be interesting to see how this would play out... </span>
Overall and interesting read with some good points, sorry I couldn't be more supportive of your conclusions.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So I'm thinking: Why? Why are these STILL powerful, even after every attack for them has been nerfed to worthlessness?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Your observation is something that I have kept trying to tell people who insist on nerfing aliens... There are TWO teams in the game, and people have spent too much time nerfing the aliens to solve every balance issue in the game. Not only is this a short-sighted move, it tends to leave the game lopsided WITHOUT actually correcting the balance issues it was trying to correct. (as you have seen)
I'm in the middle of preparing a paper that will discuss this aspect in greater detail.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So summed up: give the alien team more flexibility, at the expense of fades and onos being supertanks they are now. I imagine the fade being much weaker, gestating in just a few seconds, but costing only 25 or 30 res. "But EEK", you say, "that'd be impossible, an onslaught of fades at the start of the game!"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->I would respectfully suggest that you try and resist the temptation to try and balance the game on the alien's backs. Honestly, it won't work. It can NEVER work if you try and balance something without considering both sides of the equation.
Even if we disagree on which is the more powerful team, why not try and make you balance changes to the MARINE team if you think they are too weak? It's just far too easy to repeatly nerf the alien team, and it's getting where no one wants to play aliens anymore.
Regards,
Savant
This little analogy carries across quite well to ns balance issues (and current stats show than both co and ns need balance at present and favour aliens even in organised 16 player games.) You adjust both units to be balanced or right within themselves. You then set one of them to an appropriate strength. Next try to match the second unit to the first and finally return to the first and fine tune.
I believe we have headed to the last stage and found out that one unit is disfunctional. We should back up and correct that issue first.
Still, what may happen in the next build of 3.0 is that gorges cost 5 res, and aliens start with 20 (I would have prefered free gorges... but it's not gonna happen) res.
This will delay the ininital rush of bigger lifeforms by 5 res, or roughly 30 seconds. I say roughly because this is if you have 1/3 of your team go gorge and drop nodes your res rate will be that fast.
The great part about this change is that it will only slightly nerf the initial rush for larger lifeforms which always screw the marines over (I <3 my fades), yet at the same time it makes gorging easier to do as a team, and this will not affect the time it takes to refade or reonos at all, meaning this 5 res nerf will only affect the midgame push for larger lifeforms and nowhere else. Not the early game, and not the end-game.
Outside of the push for larger lifeforms, this change will boost the alien early game because cheaper gorges makes it easier as a team to build. Also gorges may recieve a 10 armor boost which is greatly needed, gorges are so easy to kill, they still haven't been boosted like the onos and fade were from 2.01.
I think EEK points out that marine's mid game is perhaps their weakest part, so hopefully bringing gorges down to 5 res will make things right.
Onto some other interesting points by :eaglac
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think what needs to be done is lessen the learning curve on the fade so it is more effective than a skulk for a newbie (currently its just a waste of res) and so that a skilled player does not become a god with it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In case you have not noticed, this is exactly what happened to the fade in 3.0.
The blink speed was lowered, so now it's both easier to use and be hit with, fade takes an entire shotgun shot more to kill, placing him at 4 SG shots to kill him, and if the fade takes carapace it takes 5.
Abilities such as focus make the fade insanely powerful as well.
Most of the newb fades I see die, die so fast because they forget that they can use blink to get into combat, and out of it.
Also, it only takes one good fade to show others what you can do with it and they will catch on.
I remember I used to suck with a fade (and coincindentally I thought fades sucked as well), but then I watched the sYn vs. HAM in the first 2.xx CAL match and saw a clear example of how to use a fade properly.
Learning how to fade on your own was a daunting task in 2.01, but now in 3.00 you take enough abuse to be able to just blink in the nearby vicinity of a marine, walk up to him, swipe him and kill him.
And if you are going to say there are no more clear demo's of how to fade that are readily avalible for other's to learn off of, then may I present to you this <a href='http://www.ampednews.com/?page=demos&id=150' target='_blank'>link.</a>
If midgame Fades/Onos are screwing you over, the Aliens have more RTs than you, have kept you off their hive(s), and get their reward for it. If you both have the same number of RTs, then the Marines shouldn't be screwed over by a Fade, or especially an Onos... They should've been able to muster Jetpacks, Heavy Armor, Advanced Armory, or Phase Tech. This gives the Marines the mobility/strength/speed they need to counter the Aliens. Onos shouldn't be much of a problem, as they are a HUGE target, and as long as your IPs aren't all bunched together in the same spot, should be able to be taken down. Fades might be more of a problem, but since they have less HP then an Onos, they *should* be able to go down, especially if they make a mistake. Fades have to be perfect to be as effective as those annoying Fades that win the game when you're not looking.
Getting back on topic though, making the starting res lower and the gorge cheaper is an interesting idea and I'm happy to see where it goes but my feelings are that in pub play the aliens will drop more RT's and get upgrades sooner aiding their early game and accellerating their progression to the mid-game tech.
I considered what would happen if you started aliens with 30 res and made gorges cost 15. I realised than all the aliens would save for the first five minutes, then go fade and try to finish the game at 1 hive. The end result would be marines pwning aliens.
We need to be coming up with a way to lessen this gap so that we can work on Fade balance without screwing over one skill group.
I think you are looking at it backwards.
Instead of saying "the skill of the fade is what dominates the game"
Why don't you look at the skill of the marines?
Did it ever occur to you that if marines increased in skill fades would have to increase in skill to compensate?
Fades still go down in 4 hits, pubbers might lose their first couple of games against fades but once they start learning how to aim at them and fight, marines can definately beat down fades.
I know I do it on pubs all time, I've seen this fade who rapes our whole team, I get the comm to give me a shotgun and then I solo'ed him.
It's not just the skill of the fade, but the marines as well.
That's why nerfing the fade is a very very bad idea IMO.
I think the fade is a great aspect to NS because it allows player's skill to take the game into their hands and into a win.
onos currently NEEDS stomp and devour because he DIES SO INCREDIBLY FAST without them. Perhaps if gorge healing were percentage based instead of point based you could use teamwork to make up the difference.
My argument is that if the onos NEEDS an insta-kill weapon and a another that completely neutralizes the enemy then there is something more fundamentally wrong.
For example if HA marines where getting pwned would you add a marine weapon for that killed aliens in one shot?
I hope not.
The onos definately needs something but the ability to stop the other team playing the game is not it.
Perhaps something should be done with those attacks, and maybe, just maybe, the onos's hitpoints and armor have not been brought to a balanced state.
Stomp is compltely useless at the moment, and devour seems fine... except for the long wait... But then again, it's nice to be able to save your teammates.
When a marine team is on the offensive, the commander spams some guns and armor around base. His team loads up and moves out.
If their attack fails, the commander can just spam more armor and weapons and be back into the fight within seconds.
If marines are on the defensive, they can litter armor and weapons around, and make a stand against the onslaught. They're able to actively customize their loadouts within miliseconds.
Aliens on the offensive can press an attack, provided they survive long enough to reap the rewards of res for kills. However, an alien team on the defensive doesn't stand a chance. Skulks to take out HA? Forlorn, if all your posts whine about skill, then don't stack an equation by saying 'Oh well nub marines will get killed by skulks!'. 5 bullets with an HMG to kill a skulk. A competent marine team will be able to easilly dispatch a handful of skulks, especially once they start spawning one at a time.
ALIENS are supposed to be the versatile and adaptable ones, not the marines. That's why the aliens have 9 upgrades they can pick and chose from, and 5 lifeforms, making up to 135 possible combinations. But in the end, it's the marines who are more adaptable, in every way. They can fortify any position. They can destroy any alien defense. They can (theoretically, assuming both teams are at the top of their tech tree and a neutral map layout) respond to any threat and recover infinitely faster then the aliens can (Jetpacks, beacon, phase gates).
Designing a game where you have to rely your entire victory on the performance of ONE PLAYER is awfully shortsighted.
I think this is at the core of most of the problems we have encountered with NS. The teams seem to act opposite to the way they were envisioned.
So I'm thinking: Why? Why are these STILL powerful, even after every attack for them has been nerfed to worthlessness?
I think I figured it out.
First of all, the lifeforms aren't cheap. This right away limits the alien tech to skulks, lerks, and gorges in the early game. So therefore, since the fades / onos are going to show up middle game, they need to be able to survive middle game marines. However, these lifeforms also need to be balanced so they don't overpower early game (something that, hypocritically, was never even CONSIDERED for HA/Jetpacks. Why are onos and fades able to be downed by super-cheap, early game weapons in mere shots, but early game weapons don't stand a chance against HA?)
Secondly, the lifeforms take a lot of time to gestate, and can easilly be put down as an egg. This would be akin to having to wait for each suit of HA to be built (which would not be wholey unfair).
These both mean that if an alien team is on the defensive (ie: losing) they almost will certainly lose the game. It takes far too long to gestate to a lifeform that will only be able to, with luck, kill a few marines before they win. That is, if your egg doesn't get killed.
However, to justify the steep cost and gestating time, these critters are quite powerful. A good fade can surpress a marine team, and even win the game by taking out the base. The same can be said of onos (to a lesser degree... onos are horribly outgunned vs. lategame marines).
So what's the problem?
1) If you survive and can put up the res, you now have a tool of mass annihilation.
2) This tool was strengthened to compensate for that, so you can do more damage, longer.
3) Living longer means more kills. More kills means more resources.
So you have all these superpower critters running around killing marines. They're designed to NOT DIE. But when you finally kill one, do you cheer? No. Because chances are that critter has had OVER 100 res for the last few minutes, and he's now at the hive egging again. Repeat until the aliens win.
So basically, like when the marines are winning, when aliens are winning, it can be an exercise in futility.
Basically, it'd be interesting to see what'd happen if fades and onos took only seconds to gestate to, were much cheaper, but were much weaker as well. That way the fade and onos wouldn't be "magic special exemptions", they'd be the jetpacks / heavies of the alien team. Imagine your team being able to surprise the heavy train with an ambush of fades (something that is almost impossible to do now). Your forces got cut down, so you retalliate with an onslaught of onos. It sorta sucks how it is now: "OMG ONOS DONT DIE! NO, ONOS DIED, GG!" When the marines lose a heavy train, is it game over? HA! Hardly!
So summed up: give the alien team more flexibility, at the expense of fades and onos being supertanks they are now. I imagine the fade being much weaker, gestating in just a few seconds, but costing only 25 or 30 res. "But EEK", you say, "that'd be impossible, an onslaught of fades at the start of the game!"
So reduce the cost of gorges (in fact, gorging should be free) and the cost of alien RTs to around 8 (which should be cheaper ANYWAY. They're inferior in every way to marine RTs. They're weaker, they're easier to kill, and they're bigger targets). Start the aliens with only 8 resources.
(Yes, lerks would also need changing. In fact, they might be able to stay the same, as an alternative to fades)
Just some thinking I've been doing. It'd be interesting to see how this would play out... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its posts like these that make me glad you don't really have a say in the balance on NS, your post is totally unreasonable, and would change the all the hardwork the playertesters and vets have put into balancing NS. NS 3.0 is a pretty fair version, the balance relies in the skill of the players, if a fade dies to an LMGer, guess what, its the FADE's fault, he had probably more than 5 seconds to kill the LMGer, but couldn't AIM properly.
Marines have to reload, Aliens have to gestate, I will take GESTATING over reloading anyday, because you only have to gestate a maximum of 4 times, where as marines are reloading and sometimes its slow.
Also the way to shut down the heavy train is kill their res, but that requires tactical thinking on who should take down res, and who should fight the heavy train, I don't know if a pub team can pull this off. If you let the heavy train come to you, its the alien's fault for not surpressing res. Bottom line, when you lose, it is YOUR FAULT, nothing is so out of balance in the game that would suggest otherwise.
Statistical evidence provided thus far shows that Aliens win more often than Marines in any mode(NS or CO) in any style of play (Public / Clan).
Of course, on pubs with greater than 6v6 (12) slots, the gap between alien wins and marine wins shortens - but aliens remain dominant nonetheless.
I think this is at the core of most of the problems we have encountered with NS. The teams seem to act opposite to the way they were envisioned. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not at all, Flayra envisioned the marine team being the most adaptable one's while the aliens were the ones who just grow stronger and stronger.
Evidence of this is in how the upgrades work:
Obs counter sensory chambers
Welders meld the map into marine's advantage, into how they want it
MT to counter alien stealth
Seiges to counter infestations
and the list can go on and on...
Oh, and btw...
I think the problem is that the balance lies in the skill of a couple of key alien players (as opposed to them all). It really does center on that point mid-game when the first couple of fades appear. If they happen to be bad, you'll probably lose. If they happen to be awesome, you'll probably win. Should it really all hinge on that?
I think the problem is that the balance lies in the skill of a couple of key alien players (as opposed to them all). It really does center on that point mid-game when the first couple of fades appear. If they happen to be bad, you'll probably lose. If they happen to be awesome, you'll probably win. Should it really all hinge on that? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Asforlorn has pointed out it doesn't take an awsome fade to be effective so unfortunately what we are left with is:-
<span style='color:gray'>If they happen to be bad, you'll probably lose. If they happen to be reasonable, you'll almost certainly win.</span>
//long rambe deleted//
I think balance will be found after these two lifeforms (the fade and onos) are brought back into line with what they are supposed to be about.
Fade - Shock Trooper, not big lerk that hovars without flapping
Onos - Tank,
No team should have an insta-kill weapon or one that totally disables the enemy for any period of time. Should 1 hive aliens have a hard counter to HA-HMG's ?
No. Stomp has been nerfed to the point where it requires incredible timing to be any good making it anoying for the aliens and if it is used well still totally disables all the marines in a corridor. When something gets to that stage of nerf where it is anoying for both teams it is time to step back and take another look because it just isn't working. Same with the blink and devour, it is time to step back and re-assess what it is supposed to acomplish and how it is supposed to accomplish. I think all of us here are familiar with the 1.0 manual. How do the current fade and onos compare to that ideal?
//edit// and to be quite clear before some idiot shouts about nerf/no-nerf I do not want anything to be nerfed. Fine adjustments are for when things are right in principal. Blink, Devour and Stomp are not.
The onos should take more of a battering in the end game but not a 1 hiver. Flayra can easily adjust this with armour soak %'s. The weapon problems are more fundamental that the ammount of dmage they do or the res they cost.
Not at all, Flayra envisioned the marine team being the most adaptable one's while the aliens were the ones who just grow stronger and stronger. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
This doesnt have much to do with this topic, but:
isn't it the other way around? Aliens adapting themselves to their environment, marines adapting their environments to them.
(as far as tactics go marines are far more adaptable, which seems backwards...)
Not at all, Flayra envisioned the marine team being the most adaptable one's while the aliens were the ones who just grow stronger and stronger. [/QUOTE]
This doesnt have much to do with this topic, but:
isn't it the other way around? Aliens adapting themselves to their environment, marines adapting their environments to them.
(as far as tactics go marines are far more adaptable, which seems backwards...) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, what you said is what exactly happens.
The aliens do adapt (wallwalk, start off with more map control) to their enviroment, and marines suit it for themselves.
The fact that marine's have uncounterable stuff makes sense, because if the enviroment is changed to their needs then the aliens won't be able to use it in the first place.