A Change To The Gl
DragonMech
Join Date: 2003-09-19 Member: 21023Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
Join Date: 2003-09-19 Member: 21023Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
<div class="IPBDescription">More Skill, Less Spam</div> <!--QuoteBegin-DarkRaven+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkRaven)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The very nature of the weapon is indirect firing and the reduced need to aim.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->To get directly to the point, I think this is the problem with the GL. I'd like to suggest a change to it to make it less spammable of a weapon. Simply reduce the blast radius of the GL's grenades, and increase the damage each grenade does slightly. That way, if you spam four 'nades into a room, they won't fill the entire room with damaging shrapnel - only a small portion of the room will be affected. This will let the GL maintain <i>some</i> effectiveness against the smaller kharra, but only if you aim them. Shoot them blindly, and they won't hit anything. Aim them, and they will rain the pain on anything they hit.
Your thoughts?
Your thoughts?
Comments
That said, it might not be a bad idea to reexamine its radius, but I don't think you can really eliminate its spam potential without simply removing its ability to damage any target smaller than an Onos.
How would it hurt the GLs ability to kill buildings? They don't move. Throw in the increase in damage each nade does, and you would get <i>better</i> anti-structure capabilities.
Take a look at the current GL: 250 base damage with a direct hit. That is 275, 300, and 325 damage with level 1, 2 and 3 weapons respectively. Boost it's damage by 100 points to compensate for the reduced blast radius, and you get:
Level : Damage
0 : 350
1 : 385
2 : 420
3 : 455
Now a 100-point damage boost might be a little much, but all numbers are subject to tweaking.
Personally, I think the GL should be made less powerful AND less expensive (in classic). Even with a nerf, its ability to get thru umbra makes it really important in combat.
Nades need to suck less, lets make them proximity grenades! [/sarcasm]
Like I said, a 100-point boost would probably be a bit much. The numbers are just an example.
*does a few quick mental calculations*
Here is a 50-point damage boost:
0 : 300
1 : 330
2 : 360
3 : 390
At level 3, that's 18 'nades to kill a hive, assuming no healing occurs while the hive is being shot.
That wouldn't work; the blast range would be too big still. As a prime example, today on co_ulyssees I was hanging on a cieling (<!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo-->) waiting for some lunch (<!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo-->) to walk by. Three nades get shot where I've marked on the picture below, and I'm dead before the third grenade detonates.
If you feel annoyed at constant dying to grenade spam in CO, play NS or evolve into a higher lifeform. Understand that you're not supposed to survive as a skulk vs a grenade launcher in the small hallways, just like SC zerglings are not supposed to survive siege tanks' siege blasts when running through the chokes. That's not disbalance, that's game design. If you want to live through grenade blasts, morph into a higher lifeform.
Regards,
Savant
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->One of the GL's main roles in classic clan matches has always been the ability to kill the skulks that run in the feet of stomped HA train and the ability to clean the vents.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->And, with FF on, halfway kill your entire squad. Real smart. And how does this hurt's ability to clear vents? If they don't hit the kharra in question, they will be close enough to kill said kharra.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you feel annoyed at constant dying to grenade spam in CO, play NS or evolve into a higher lifeform. Understand that you're not supposed to survive as a skulk vs a grenade launcher in the small hallways, just like SC zerglings are not supposed to survive siege tanks' siege blasts when running through the chokes. That's not disbalance, that's game design. If you want to live through grenade blasts, morph into a higher lifeform.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Of course the skulk will die to a GL. Never said it shouldn't. But I don't think it's fun to die because I couldn't get more than thirty feet away from a grenade when I'm a full health skulk.
Unless something has changed, it already DOES half damage to aliens. (Or 2X damage to structures if you prefer to think of it that way.)
Unless something has changed, it already DOES half damage to aliens. (Or 2X damage to structures if you prefer to think of it that way.) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Heh...that makes it even worse...it's not half damage to the aliens no matter which way you think...base damage is the same and versus buildings its base damage * 2
Half damage would be base damage / 2 and that's a huge difference...
But yeah, GL needs some tweaking done in general...in combat it's just a cheap spam weapon which is a pretty lame such if you ask me for such small maps...
In classic it's better, but spamming is still possible (rines turtled down)...and it does threaten any kind of life form, and of course, in classic, dying as a higher life form isn't a preffered option...
Zek, you cant exploit the armoury for fast reloads like you used to be able to.
Savant, if grenades where delay only the only option would be to spam them. I dont think anyone would suggest a direct hit gl vs skulk is an easy thing to do.
As for adding 100 damage meaning that 4 gl'ers can down a hive. Well, currently 4 shotgunners can and 4 gl'ers will have no real anti-alien abilities.
This change would make gl spam near useless but the gl itself deadly against structures and anything it hits directly. Big thumbs up from me. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Stop complaining about basic lifeform being killed by the most expensive weapon in the game, and instead start using other lifeforms. GL is fine as it is. Adapt, don't whine.
Stop complaining about basic lifeform being killed by the most expensive weapon in the game, and instead start using other lifeforms. GL is fine as it is. Adapt, don't whine. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
*stands up and claps* <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Then there is the matter of this new tactic that is becoming rather popular in combat mainly...where GL users spam grens in front of their feet to ward off any attackers...if the attacker is a skulk or lerk then it usually means that the rine is the one that gets out as the victorious...if he dies, the attacker usually dies as well...the gl user very rarely dies of his own grenades...yeah...evolve into fade or onos is the reply from some people...well, the speed at which a rine can get a GL is pretty much faster than when an average player evolves into a fade...a naked fade mind with NO upgrades...
Mind that going to fade is a 2-step process which costs 3 points in total in Combat...and as most people should know, it's pretty hard to be a skulk with no upgrades against rines who even have mediocre upgrades...saving for fade immediately isn't always an option for a lot of people...the rines don't have to worry about that...level 0 lmg which is a ranged weapon can do well against paperbag skulks, even if they have some upgrades on them...AND, the path towards getting a GL is by going through other upgrades first, like getting better damage and then a better weapon...something that the khaara lack...they have to choose whether go to a higher life form asap, and play as such without any prior upgrades whatsoever or go for upgrades to increase their chances in getting further kills...they can't have both...and the gorge which is in the way...well, most of the time if anyone evolves to a gorge the moment he can, he'll most likely be stuck with it for ages, since gaining XP as a gorge is to put it mildly, very annoying...
So please tell me in all of this, why people shouldn't complain about GL spamming? It's a (huge) problem in combat that has existed there for ages...
How would it hurt the GLs ability to kill buildings? They don't move. Throw in the increase in damage each nade does, and you would get <i>better</i> anti-structure capabilities.
Take a look at the current GL: 250 base damage with a direct hit. That is 275, 300, and 325 damage with level 1, 2 and 3 weapons respectively. Boost it's damage by 100 points to compensate for the reduced blast radius, and you get:
Level : Damage
0 : 350
1 : 385
2 : 420
3 : 455
Now a 100-point damage boost might be a little much, but all numbers are subject to tweaking. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wrong. The large blast radius is to account for spread out buildings and wipe them <b>all</b> out in several blasts. It is the same principle of bile bomb.
That's the *1* problem I have with the GL -- it only does 1/3 damage to the person using it. You can drop 2 or 3 right on your feet with no fear of death.
GL should be 100% damage to the owner.
Grenades are supposed to affect all lifeforms. And of course 3-4 grenaders can kill an assault in no time. That's 12-16 grenades.... Take the damage of one grenade and times that by 12 to 16. That's a lot.
ignore armor upgrades - marine is a skulk fodder
ignore equipment upgrades - no support/mines/welder
I'd say those two pretty much do the same as having a lvl4 fade - marine stays quite basic, and even with GL, he's still armor 0 rine, who is very vulnerable (one skulk focus bite=kill)
On the other hand, even a basic fade can generally down at least one-two LA marines, no matter the upgrades if he has skill. Not to mention getting two more levels (GL+armor2 or GL+support+armor1) and you have onos. I'm yet to see a GL spam that would do anything more then slightly hinder an onos, given that full GL clip does 125x4=500 damage on direct hit, and onos has 700/600, making even 3 100% accurate GLers quite helpless.
I say GL is fine as it is, and you should actually try evolving and playing with the rest of the team, rather then play CS-style "I should have a chance to win with even the lvl1 setup vs a lvl10 setup". CS style doesn't work in any NS mode - and whining about it not working won't get you much sympathy here.
Simple RTS rule: Area weapons are better against large groups.
I really don't know how this sort of thing could be balanced properly, but it is definitely a problem, just like static upgrades for marines.
Let's try explaining this again...take a marine and a khaara, both level 1 and both their aim is to level up asap...the marine as fast as possible towards a GL, and the khaara as fast as possible towards a fade...
The marine's path is quite an easy one...first he gets the level 1 damage upgrade (which naturally means easier kills). Second is the shotgun, which is the perfect skulk weapon and since 99% of the opposite teams will most likely still be skulks by the time a rine gets the shotgun, it's a perfect tool...and then the third and final step, the GL...the fire and forget weapon which totally decimates any skulk in the vicinity...
Now for the skulk...it's goal is to become a fade asap...it can get a couple of levels fairly easily with some skill and luck early on...the catch is first of all the gorge evolution which is between the fade evolution...if a skulk evolves into a gorge early on, good luck in getting more xp fast...usually, people wait until they have 3 levels then go to fade immediately...
The only catch however is that it gets increasingly hard for a totally unupgraded skulk to fight against the rines...a level 1 skulk is already heavily inferior against any kind of level 3 marine...
As said before, the skulk can always use it's first levels to get some upgrades early on to keep up with the marines, however this will delay it from becoming a fade as fast as possible...at which time anyone who wants to GL spam will most likely already have gained those 3 levels needed to get a GL...and remember that the rines ALWAYS gets a GL with a level 1 damage upgrade, which it got along the way...
80% of the time if 3 or so marines (no matter what number of players in a server) goes immediately for a GL, then it's usually game over for the khaara unless they have enough players which knows exactly what they are doing (which usually happens around 1 per 5 games, accounting for the remaining 20%)
And let's face it...GL spam tactics is the most common tactic for the marines...when the miracle does occur that the marines doesn't have anyone who spams grens early on, then the khaara can actually put up a fight early on and get enough folks evolved up to higher lifeforms that when the GL's finally do show up, they won't be as effective...
Let's see the pattern of getting quick GL in combat again.
Marine:
lvl2. w1
lvl3. SG
lvl4. GL
What we get: a lvl0 armor (worthless marine, dies from 2 normal and one focus skulk bites, and you can certainly expect people that will plan to stay fade or lerk to take focus as their #1 upgrade) marine that can pack some damage for 1 level before evolution. In addition, if you want to actually have any survivability with this type, you'll need at least armor1 and resupply upgrades (or you'll be limited to hmping the armory, forcing you to stay in base all the time). In other words, even if you rush, you won't become efficient until lvl6 or so.
Alien path:
lvl2-4 possible gorge at any level, then fade at lvl4.
What you get: a standard skulk which can easily compare to the beginning "superskulks" early on, just don't be the only rusher like many skulks like to do - stay behind and get exp from teamwork exp. You'll level to lvl4 about as fast as marines, and at lvl4 you get a plain fade. Plain fade in decent/good hands is a murderous weapon vs lvl4 marines - personally I usually start having ~2.5/1 kill/death ratio with plain fade at lvl5 and even average pubbers easily get 1,5/1-2/1 ratio. This also allows you to give team experience "back" to the team, as you become a far more efficient killer then those super-skulks. And need I tell you what happens at lvl6? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> If you don't get at least 3/1-4/1 kill ratios against those GL marines at level 7 (regen onos), you suck - plain and simple <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->