Stop With The False Economies
stooopid
Join Date: 2004-02-19 Member: 26709Members
Join Date: 2004-02-19 Member: 26709Members
<div class="IPBDescription">or am i missing something...</div> So many comms send their marines to double-res when they know that aliens are there and are also trying to take it. They waste several precious minutes and MANY dead marines trying to take it while 4-6 res nodes sit completely unused all over the map.
Damnit, let the aliens have double, and take everything else. Since its easy to clean out later with sieges, just leave it alone. Perhaps this problem is only present on pubs, but I'm getting sick of it.
Here's what I want to know: First, are there some maps where this is a necessary strategy? I doubt it but I guess its possible. Second, since comms have more complete knowledge about the action on the map a better strategy would be to choose the main res nodes that can be taken and held. From that basis, the assault on hives can be staged. Whats wrong with that? Someone tell me why comms ALWAYS do this?
-stooopid
Damnit, let the aliens have double, and take everything else. Since its easy to clean out later with sieges, just leave it alone. Perhaps this problem is only present on pubs, but I'm getting sick of it.
Here's what I want to know: First, are there some maps where this is a necessary strategy? I doubt it but I guess its possible. Second, since comms have more complete knowledge about the action on the map a better strategy would be to choose the main res nodes that can be taken and held. From that basis, the assault on hives can be staged. Whats wrong with that? Someone tell me why comms ALWAYS do this?
-stooopid
Comments
I personally only cap double res if I've got a marine near it and the opportunity is there. Relocations to double res' often fail due to the aliens valuing them so much, so I generally steer clear of them for the first couple of minutes and then try to take anything that is in there down.
This is one of the few situations where I believe that cure is better than prevention.
But yeah, don't get caught up too much in it. Always time for dbl res later, work on getting other res and pressuring the alien hive.
Stay away from double itself, but keep in the vicinity. If you can hold a nearby choke point then you can send out a small patrol to periodically clear out dbl. If the Kharaa get dug in its no worries, since they can't exactly spawn outside of their hives. Besides, the mighty siege will flatten all in range.
I personally think the strange addiction some players have for dbl nodes is the main reason why people lose games.
avoid it like the plague on the others ... and then get rid of the plague later <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
As you said, its difficult to take dbl res at start, since 1 <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo--> > 1 LA <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo--> no upgrades.
Relocating there is... stupid too... on some maps like caged, veil and others, there is always a ventilation... oh yeah... "that" hell ventilation. <!--emo&::lerk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/lerk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='lerk.gif' /><!--endemo--> come, spore and easy frag.
I know, Armory gives Medpack but what about the armor that we love so much to stay alive after 2 bites (1 with focus).
Oh well... my 2 cents!
I dont post too much so be proud that I posted here!
Greets.
Vas.
Just want to point this out, but that's simply not true. 9 bullets happen far faster than 2 bites can usually connect.
Still, getting addicted to the double node like crack is often the downfall of many a team.
That is EXACTLY what I am saying... Agreement. See, my overall thesis on NS play is as follows:
Early game actions are really important for the marine team. Once the enemy has formed higher lifeforms (>4 minutes) the marines are easily beaten. Alien lovers will tell you that higher lifeforms aren't powerful until they have >1 hive up, but that is nonsense -- if hive1 fades/lerks can pre-occupy the marine spawn, then they can very quickly get a second (and indeed a third) hive up quickly. Facts people, its best to face them.
Its sad to see the resulting ownage. Because marines can tell its over long before it ends...
On the other hand, if you can scrounge together resources enough for a jp/hmg rush early, before they can take down your resources, it can be over VERY quickly with a nice hive rush through a vent somewhere. When the team is coordinated, this can work beautifully.
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo-->
On veil you should elec and drop a pg, and you've got a very central position (very close to cargo and pretty close to both pipe and sub.)
Having two res nodes opposed to just one, and a point which marines can spawn from is valuable. I don't com' often at all, but I see double-res' as a useful area.
Having two res nodes opposed to just one, and a point which marines can spawn from is valuable. I don't com' often at all, but I see double-res' as a useful area. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Useful, yes. Worth 2 minutes of constant death to your team? No.
I agree that it is a useful operating position, but I've seen so many rounds lost this way it just really frustrates me...
And yes, there are exeptions where dres are just chokepoints. But generally I do not take effort to get it.
<b>If you dont get it easily it is a waste to keep trying to take it, which is the mistake commanders make.</b>
For mine shaft it is very important. Its between 2 hives and is easier to defend with tf b/c its more flat and open compared to other double rts.
I totaly agree that trying to take dres for about 5 minutes right on start won't take you anywhere. Example: Hera , you will probably do a better job when getting 1-2 marines attacking dres while the others take main-conridor, hera entrance, main, ventilation, processing ...
The Aliens will most likely try to defend dres against your 2 marines (which shouldnt die right away) while you get MORE then 2 RTs up and running.
Now while getting some upgrades you can [lock a hive/lock two hives/siege double/try attack double with upgraded marines/rush the main-hive/...]
If you get control at double be happy build a PG and MAYBE a TF with 2-3 turrets to stop some skulk rushes and slow down fades a few seconds.
Just my .02
Second, res nodes between hives can end up as expensive kill zones since your men are effectively pincered by the two hives. You're not dominating anything, and although it *may* be a nice spot, its hindered by the fact that leaving base to assault one hive will leave your base wide open to an assault from the OTHER hive. Second, if you clear out the hive on one side then you've to fight an uphill battle through your old base and then further on through to the other hive....... by this time the aliens are rebuilding the previous hive because it's taken you 10-20 minutes to fight across.
Make no mistake, dbl nodes are nice res providers, but they're far too easily exploited by Kharaa. They can drop two RTs and run off chuckling, safe in the knowledge that IF they lose the area, its only 2 RTs which are dirt cheap considering Kharaa save res independently. As a marine player, you drop those chambers, guard them with some men, try to form a minibase, and end up piling in a hell of a lot of res for little to no gain.
IMHO you want to DENY dbl res, nothing more. If you manage to get both hives on either side, or you're expanding THROUGH the middle of the map, then by all means cap the nodes and MOVE ON. Marine victories are dictated through aggression and pressure, not through long drawn out turret crawls through a Kharaa killzone.
I guess I've just never seen a fight for double that turned out to be to the long-term benefit of the marines. If it isn't guarded then, by all means, get setup. I see your point about it being a good forward operating position.
Perhaps my consternation comes from the fact that I like a <i>blitzkrieg</i> strategy against the hives -- as soon as you can equip 5-6 grunts with JP/HMG, you rush. Note the benefits of this over a basic shotty rush... Good insights though, people. Thanks!
Just want to point this out, but that's simply not true. 9 bullets happen far faster than 2 bites can usually connect.
Still, getting addicted to the double node like crack is often the downfall of many a team. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wrong, if you know aliens are going to double node then you should too because killing alien nodes cripples them hard
^ best phrase in this thread, yet.
Essentially skilled marines can fight off loads of skulks and maybe 40% of the time, having survived, succeed in doing damage to a hive area .
^ best phrase in this thread, yet. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree.
If we can't have it so can't they.
One thing is sure. I prefer to make 2 small chokepoints OUTSIDE dres instead of a huge one in it.
just build chokepoints and laught.
In mineshaft it is essential to hold Double... The map is made in such a way that aliens have much easier movement than marines, so the rts will keep falling, which means that the marines have to put early pressure on the aliens. Taking double forces the aliens to try to get the marines out, because from double, it's an easy move to seige tram or drill.
as a side note, I've never seen marines win if they don't have mineshaft double by about 10 mins.
I also don't know about most of you, but fortifying double means you get a nice phase-base in a key location, as double is almost always in some central location on teh map. (i.e. marines can phase there and run to any other location in a short time)
Small chokepoints are easy for a fade to get past/kill. 1 one big defends itself much better than 2 smaller ones. Iounno... fades are scared of 8 or so turrents, but 4? bah.
I know some people say relocating is ultimately an exercise in futility, but this is the one map where I think it is absolutely necessary to relocate.
This is kind of a misleading discussion though because it varies so much by map and often specifically which hive aliens start. Comparing nano-grid to say, reactor room, is kind of silly. I think it is much more important to analyze the location of a particular spot on the map, the fact that there is an extra node in a strategically important room is just gravy.
On other maps like tanith or veil though dbl is of little concern to me and whilst it's nice to hold it, it isn't as important as other locations on the maps cargo or chem transport.
On other maps like tanith or veil though dbl is of little concern to me and whilst it's nice to hold it, it isn't as important as other locations on the maps cargo or chem transport. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ugh, relocating to double in caged against just ONE competent alien will send your rines to their deaths. As previously stated, it is a death trap.
because of the sieging opportunities right? yeah... that can win. I still think taking down a hive is a priority over that siege. It seems impossible to deny fades entirely on a map that large though. So, its best to take out a hive and then siege double. I like that approach the best.