coilAmateur pirate. Professional monkey. All pance.Join Date: 2002-04-12Member: 424Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
I believe the commander can run into problems placing items if he is within a brush. And anyway, no-clip would be a headache for the commander - you'd spend more time trying to get a good vantage point than you would ordering your troops.
Re: 2D DOOM levels -- you'd have to be a blind lobotomized certified cretin (IQ <= 60) to confuse the 2D of DOOM with the full-3D-but-no-level-over-level that is Natural Selection. There is absolutely no comparison that CAN be made between the two. None.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->Re: 2D DOOM levels -- you'd have to be a blind lobotomized certified cretin (IQ <= 60) to confuse the 2D of DOOM with the full-3D-but-no-level-over-level that is Natural Selection. There is absolutely no comparison that CAN be made between the two. None.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ya, it's not like NS mapping is essentially Doom mapping + catwalks. <!--emo&???--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'><!--endemo-->
Seriously, the only things you couldn't do with the Build engine that'll going into NS are the catwalks and cosmetic environment doodads. Since you are not allowed to go level over level, all you need is a 2d overhead blueprint with heightmaps to recreate the level.
It's also worth remembering that lots of people had enormous amounts of fun with Doom, regardless of the fact it was "2D". It would be <i>nice</i> if you could have multi-story maps, and it's definitely something to work on for release 2, but it's by no means necessary for the game to be fun.
Hey got an idea. Alright maybe once you get the hive, there is something like dynamite on the roof of the tunnel. And after you knock out the hive you could press a button and detonate the roof, giving the commander access to that area where the hive was. So you could build a few turrets and a base or whatever. But also the city and the tunnel should have about equal areas. Same amount of resources and stuff. Anyway that's just a little add on to my last idea.
Some first person rts's such as Dungeon Keeper allow you to zoom in and out, as well as tilt the angle of view a bit. Just a thought... <!--emo&???--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'><!--endemo-->
There could possible be a way of doing level level...
If they coded a new solid class entity so that the command could "change levels" meaning u would make the floor of "level 1" a regular solid then make the floor of "level 2" this new entity so when the commander "changed levels" by hitting a button (one button for up level one for down level) this new entity would become like 80-90% transparent and the commander could then only affect things on that "level".
In the properties of each entity you would just put the “level” number keep making the next level a new number so all entities of the same # are the same "level" and all entities of the same “level” would go translucent together. I know its complex but it’s the only way I see of doing it if it’s to be done at all.
That sure would make ns mapping a whole lot more flexible. Maybe V2... who knows...
Good lord, I've seen the 2nd coming. An execellent idea from jeb. However, that would still be difficult to make use of for commanders and mappers. Mappers especally, because the command in itself is very spesific in it's use, meaning that the map could have 2 and only 2 levels, and that they would have to be expansive enough to make the 2nd level worth the while. I think in most cases, the trouble of creating the entities and switching the levels wouldn't be worth it in the end. In addition, it would probally do some nasty things to the ent limit.
A fine idea though. Really. <!--emo&:D--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'><!--endemo-->
I believe making many, many objects visable through transparent objects causes the FPS drop like a rock. At least, that's what I experience when I'm mapping. Plus, like Redford said, its not worth it.
Good god. Read all this when you get done commanding a game. Then laugh yourselves silly at the thought of trying to command this way. You are all missing a very crucial factor:
Experience trying to manage a bunch of crazy players on even a simple layered level.
I agree somewhat - Having levels over levels would certainly be an interesting addition, but it would require a HUGE rework of the way NS works right now. Having NS with levels over levels wouldn't feel like NS anymore (because the way its played would be so different.)
Natural Selection will never support true levels over levels.
EDIT: LOL I put B-O-B instead of Skulk, but it automatically changed. Looks like you people are really serious about that <!--emo&???--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'><!--endemo-->
EDIT AGAIN: Haha, I didn't even notice how close that slogan is to the one on the flash intro...and I just made that up.
Well people were woundering if it could be done i merely presented a way... Everything everyone said is right though. FPS would hit the shitter, lighting would b ###### up (light penetrates entities), and it would be so F*ING difficult to command in it, u NEVER see any thing like this in sc or ta or dr or any self respecting rts for that matter. And theres a reason for that... so what am i saying? im saying its harder to come up with these ideas then to bash them like you all did, look how many problems i just created here, and this post took HALF the time the last one took to think up and write. So what am i saying? start making ur own ideas damn it...
Just to make sure to point this out a second time, since this is a five page post and only a single person has said this (and everyone else who said differently was wrong, like everyone on the first page)...
You -can- place buildings underneath, say, a catwalk. As long as you can have an unobstructed top-down view of a place, you can place a building there...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hey got an idea. Alright maybe once you get the hive, there is something like dynamite on the roof of the tunnel. And after you knock out the hive you could press a button and detonate the roof, giving the commander access to that area where the hive was. So you could build a few turrets and a base or whatever. But also the city and the tunnel should have about equal areas. Same amount of resources and stuff. Anyway that's just a little add on to my last idea. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Me thinks D_6969 has a good creative idea here, though it would be a mapper implemented idea. Doesn't have to be a bomb necessarily. A large door could be opened or something too to the above room. The implementation would have to be careful though, because the tunnels leading into the hive have to be visible. Not true level on level, but I like the idea!
Statement: All people who say that multi-level commanding is not neccessary to have an extremely, incredibly enjoyable game are right.
Suggestion: For multi-level maps, have the mappers place a special ent with a value (value of 2 for second floor, etc), and have the commander's camera's z coordinates switch to that of the special ent's. Very, very simple. Assuming that the commander does use a camera, instead of some kind of weird code that I don't understand.
Comments
Re: 2D DOOM levels -- you'd have to be a blind lobotomized certified cretin (IQ <= 60) to confuse the 2D of DOOM with the full-3D-but-no-level-over-level that is Natural Selection. There is absolutely no comparison that CAN be made between the two. None.
Ya, it's not like NS mapping is essentially Doom mapping + catwalks. <!--emo&???--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'><!--endemo-->
Seriously, the only things you couldn't do with the Build engine that'll going into NS are the catwalks and cosmetic environment doodads. Since you are not allowed to go level over level, all you need is a 2d overhead blueprint with heightmaps to recreate the level.
It's also worth remembering that lots of people had enormous amounts of fun with Doom, regardless of the fact it was "2D". It would be <i>nice</i> if you could have multi-story maps, and it's definitely something to work on for release 2, but it's by no means necessary for the game to be fun.
de_dust
dustbowl
doombank (hehe, had to throw that one in :P)
I could go on and on...
No comment on vipr, don't want to embarress him. Poor uninformed soul.
If they coded a new solid class entity so that the command could "change levels" meaning u would make the floor of "level 1" a regular solid then make the floor of "level 2" this new entity so when the commander "changed levels" by hitting a button (one button for up level one for down level) this new entity would become like 80-90% transparent and the commander could then only affect things on that "level".
In the properties of each entity you would just put the “level” number keep making the next level a new number so all entities of the same # are the same "level" and all entities of the same “level” would go translucent together. I know its complex but it’s the only way I see of doing it if it’s to be done at all.
That sure would make ns mapping a whole lot more flexible. Maybe V2... who knows...
A fine idea though. Really. <!--emo&:D--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'><!--endemo-->
Experience trying to manage a bunch of crazy players on even a simple layered level.
Natural Selection will never support true levels over levels.
NOW, Natural Selection <b>2</b>, maybe...
<b>NS 2: Return of the Skulk</b>
<i>The time to evolve...has come</i>
<!--emo&:D--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'><!--endemo-->
EDIT: LOL I put B-O-B instead of Skulk, but it automatically changed. Looks like you people are really serious about that <!--emo&???--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'><!--endemo-->
EDIT AGAIN: Haha, I didn't even notice how close that slogan is to the one on the flash intro...and I just made that up.
You -can- place buildings underneath, say, a catwalk. As long as you can have an unobstructed top-down view of a place, you can place a building there...
<img src="http://members.rogers.com/imagehost22/images/COMMODE.jpg" border="0">
Fig. 1: Commader's view is centered over catwalk, cannot see below catwalk.
Fig. 2: Commader moves his view over a bit, due to angles can now see below catwalk, and place building, ammo, etc.
Does that help?
Me thinks D_6969 has a good creative idea here, though it would be a mapper implemented idea. Doesn't have to be a bomb necessarily. A large door could be opened or something too to the above room. The implementation would have to be careful though, because the tunnels leading into the hive have to be visible. Not true level on level, but I like the idea!
Suggestion: For multi-level maps, have the mappers place a special ent with a value (value of 2 for second floor, etc), and have the commander's camera's z coordinates switch to that of the special ent's. Very, very simple. Assuming that the commander does use a camera, instead of some kind of weird code that I don't understand.
jh