<!--quoteo(post=1601835:date=Jan 25 2007, 10:31 PM:name=Scythe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Scythe @ Jan 25 2007, 10:31 PM) [snapback]1601835[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> <b><!--sizeo:7--><span style="font-size:36pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->BRING BACK BAST! <3<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b>
Nobody plays the current bast, really. The old bast oozed style and coolness. It has some of the most memorable locations in the whole game. Atmo! Ref! That big drillshaft with the electricity zapping all over the place!
As for people getting killed in the revolving door, it's a simple matter to learn not to position yourself on the edge. The door acts as a way of keeping marines grouped together. Enhancing teamwork. The original NS design docs said that there should be parts of the map that cause marines to take check of where they are relative to the rest of their team. Quad lift on ns_nothing, for example. Saying that door is a bad thing because it occasionally kills people is like saying that the pits of death in ns_nothing spawn are a bad thing since you can accidentally fall down them. Or that ANY elevation that could result in a marine dying if he fell off is a bad thing. Typical American thinking. The individual is absolved of any responsibility for his own wellbeing.
/me gently revolves.
--Scythe-- <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The door wasn't hated because it occationally killed marines, it was hated because compiled with the massive elevator it made MS incredibly difficult to retreat from as the onos, prolonging games. Not that the little corridor of death is that much better now.
Release the old version(with bugfixes) as ns_bast, then after finishing the new version(removing all the "oh my god who designed this crap" things like feedwater), release THAT as ns_bast2.
Or if that's too blatant, change the name then provide some generic backstory like it being made by the same manufacturer or whatever, like veil and eclipse.
<!--quoteo(post=1601989:date=Jan 27 2007, 04:02 AM:name=MrBen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MrBen @ Jan 27 2007, 04:02 AM) [snapback]1601989[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Don't do it, Mendasp.
It being a classic doesn't mean it has to be played. Just give them an old BSP but leave the current, playable version of bast as it is. Don't make a shiva out of it and reduce bast to mere obscurity. "That map with the buggy door? nah. /votemap ns_veil" <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Playable?
That's like saying that prune juice is "drinkable". It's technically true but nobody wants to do it. Using the argument "Nobody will play it" is bunk since nobody plays the current version anyway.
Make a new map - CO_Bast and put the door in there. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1601764:date=Jan 25 2007, 05:42 PM:name=Merkaba)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Merkaba @ Jan 25 2007, 05:42 PM) [snapback]1601764[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> If ns_bast_classic does get made, then I demand that someone brings ns_hera_classic up to scratch too <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the issue is making bast playable, than making it "cool".
Having a map playable would work for all, but having it "cool" would only appeal to those older folk who've known bast since... then, which would still make it unplayable.
If you want to make it playable, make some big changes. Add light to those hideously dark areas. Make large areas, especially the hive area, smaller. Bend those long hallways. Remove those vents that actually take longer to get to somewhere, than the fat route.
<!--quoteo(post=1602256:date=Jan 27 2007, 11:41 PM:name=ssjyoda)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ssjyoda @ Jan 27 2007, 11:41 PM) [snapback]1602256[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> my god that version of hera is... BAD! <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
God it really is isn't it <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" /> I'd forgotten quite how bad it was...
Still, it had some cool things in there which, looking back, were a bit of a shame to lose; mostly around the maintenance area (the fan with a broken arm, the weldables there etc).
Now, just give me a ns_bast_classic and I'll be happy. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1602623:date=Jan 29 2007, 08:43 AM:name=Merkaba)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Merkaba @ Jan 29 2007, 08:43 AM) [snapback]1602623[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> God it really is isn't it <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" /> I'd forgotten quite how bad it was...
Still, it had some cool things in there which, looking back, were a bit of a shame to lose; mostly around the maintenance area (the fan with a broken arm, the weldables there etc).
For the most part, its ugly as hell though! <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Holy moly... that's... it's changed so much. That was the pre-1.00 version wasn't it? I recognized things that had to have been in 1.0 (when I first played it) but not in future versions... man, hera has been absolutely ripped apart and rebuilt!
And yet it is so hard to let go of bast...
Yes, release bast_classic, but let new bast continue to evolve.
<!--quoteo(post=1602810:date=Jan 30 2007, 11:14 AM:name=BigD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BigD @ Jan 30 2007, 11:14 AM) [snapback]1602810[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Yes, release bast_classic <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's the current plan, but I have 2 weeks of exams and I won't be able to work on it just yet.
As for the new bast... that's another beast... I haven't done any mapping in the last year, so... I don't know if I'll be able to do any substantial changes to it... we'll see.
Edit:
Here's a list of changes (and fixes) I can reimplement from newer versions (3.0 Beta 5 - 3.2) of bast back into the revolving-door version of the map <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> Any objections to these?
- Reduced size of the vent on top of feedwater so marines have to crouch - Raised Feedwater hive to avoid exploits and making the access to the vent easier - Moved the Feedwater resource a bit so you can get behind it - Widened the corridor outside feedwater - Added vent between Feedwater and Steam Generation - Fixed Onos spawn issues (redemption / movement chamber) in Feedwater - Added vent from Feedwater to Atmospheric processing <i>(I think I should just copy & paste the current feedwater...)</i>
- Moved the res outside of Refinery to Water treatment - Added vent from Engine to Water Treatment - Moved the new res (bottom of the main aft lift) closer to Tram Tunnel (like in the current version) - Added vent between Feedwater and Tram Tunnel (the vent system with several openings in the current version) - Added lights to the underwater tunnel (Feedwater) - Tweaked the Tram so the Onos can fit without crouching - Added vent in Refinery - Added infestation in Refinery to block the line of sight to the hive from the ramp entrance - Added some cover in Refinery - Moved column in Atmospheric Processing more to the center - Reduced excessive brightness in some areas (lights over the nodes, feedwater, marine spawn) - func_mendasp, heh. Anyone remembers the retina-burning resource nodes? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
These are just so I remember to include some fixes: - Fixed a lot of areas where the comm shouldn't build (this includes all the weird feedwater spots) - Fixed strange clipping holes and errors (this includes some stuck issues too) - Fixed button on the Engine Door - Fixed stuck point behind the Observe match ladder in the ReadyRoom
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited January 2007
To bad ns has evolved into a generic fast paced FPS with occasional RTS elements... I'm sadend when reading things like "but water kills gameplay" and "features kill gameplay". So gameplay in the current NS has been reduced to zooming arround very fast shooting at things that move?
I think these features actually enhance the gameplay experience. I mean come one man:
- Bottlenecks and on the other hand outflanking possibilities - Areas hard to defend for one teamwhile other areas are easier - Actual welding spots where covering the player who is welding is an absolute must - Elevators which force marines close together - 3 seperate hives with 3 different approaches to destroy (Siege, jetty+HMG, HA train)
- And most important more interactivity in a map...
But no, currently its all about. OMG RUN RUN SHOOT FRAG ROUND OVER o.o"
Sounds like combat has infested classic
[edit] I do have a suggestion though if you want to get the door back in bast (dunno I read it somewhere could even be in this thread <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> )
Make the door simply a circle wall with a small area cut out of the circle and make it rotate arround the players inside the door area. This would not have a rotating floor and players can stand in this area without movement, while the door rotates arround them into the second position. Which opens up the other side...
<!--quoteo(post=1602842:date=Jan 31 2007, 02:10 AM:name=Mendasp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mendasp @ Jan 31 2007, 02:10 AM) [snapback]1602842[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> - Reduced size of the vent on top of feedwater so marines have to crouch - Raised Feedwater hive to avoid exploits and making the access to the vent easier - Moved the Feedwater resource a bit so you can get behind it <strike>- Widened the corridor outside feedwater[/]s [s]- Added vent between Feedwater and Steam Generation</strike> - Fixed Onos spawn issues (redemption / movement chamber) in Feedwater <strike>- Added vent from Feedwater to Atmospheric processing</strike>
<strike>- Moved the res outside of Refinery to Water treatment - Added vent from Engine to Water Treatment - Moved the new res (bottom of the main aft lift) closer to Tram Tunnel (like in the current version) - Added vent between Feedwater and Tram Tunnel (the vent system with several openings in the current version) </strike>- Added lights to the underwater tunnel (Feedwater) - Tweaked the Tram so the Onos can fit without crouching <strike>- Added vent in Refinery</strike> - Added infestation in Refinery to block the line of sight to the hive from the ramp entrance - Added some cover in Refinery - Moved column in Atmospheric Processing more to the center - Reduced excessive brightness in some areas (lights over the nodes, feedwater, marine spawn) - func_mendasp, heh. Anyone remembers the retina-burning resource nodes? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
These are just so I remember to include some fixes: - Fixed a lot of areas where the comm shouldn't build (this includes all the weird feedwater spots) - Fixed strange clipping holes and errors (this includes some stuck issues too) - Fixed button on the Engine Door - Fixed stuck point behind the Observe match ladder in the ReadyRoom <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think these features actually enhance the gameplay experience. I mean come one man:
- Bottlenecks and on the other hand outflanking possibilities -system waypointing- - Areas hard to defend for one teamwhile other areas are easier -cargo is pretty much painful for the marines to hold vs lerkys, almost everything apart from system vs 2nd hivers- - Actual welding spots where covering the player who is welding is an absolute must -dbl vents- - Elevators which force marines close together -well... the one between pipe and dome is close enough- - 3 seperate hives with 3 different approaches to destroy (Siege, jetty+HMG, HA train) -not really possible with the game blance as it is now, but some are more worth sieging/jp'ing than the others-
- And most important more interactivity in a map...
But no, currently its all about. OMG RUN RUN SHOOT FRAG ROUND OVER o.o"
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A bit of derailing and stuff, but I think I can find pretty much all these in veil, probably the most architecturally simple map in the game.
Oh and bast used to be a nice map, but I think it needs huge changes to get good again. At least the gathers I've played in the old bast in 3.0 have been quite painful.
The question is do we want bast as a relic to be looked upon and say "WHEN I WAS YOUNG WE USED TO PLAY THIS HUNKATUNK", or do we want to actually have people want to PLAY bast, rather than see it.
I'd vie for the latter.
Several long hallways have to go. Tram tunnels is suicide for aliens. So is that hallway with that long elevator. Break up that area between the hallways as it is a too dominate area for marines.
Reduce the useless size of refinery. Remove the useless vents around MS. Make the central area with the ship controls a playable area, such as make it wider, add a RT, etc.
It's far too easy to get to engine, even with the changes. The left side of the map feels like it has no purpose, since double was removed. Add vents allowing faster transportation between hives.
Brighten up feedwater, remove the water vent, but keep it "watery" just for the name. Add more twists and turns, boxes, crates, for skulk cover.
I think that's the underlying problem. The layout needs an overhaul. Major architecture in the process will need to be re-thought. The changes thus far, while commendable for the effort to not destroy that which was so hard to rebuild, need to be taken to the next level.
The basic layout is bast's biggest vice. I really need to look at an overhead view of it (don't see it much since nobody wants to play it...) but like Smood said, atmos without double rts really shows how off in la-la land it is. This route is direct to a hive with no real alternative. Bear with me as I generalize here, but I think atmos ought to link up with main aft. Obviously, this would require a pile of reshaping and such, but atmos needs to link to somewhere else. Main aft -> engine is another route less travelled. I think it would be preferable to have a route from engine to feed that doesn't involve main aft, ms or refinery as well.
Right now, and for as long as I can remember, main aft is/has been "the" place to be. It links to all three hives with 5 routes for marines to use to get to hives. 6 routes including back through to ms. Whoever holds that room wins. Would a route to atmos make it worse? Yes. But this is where more changes would have to be made, as just opening a new door to atmos is right out. This room needs to be divided up one way or another. One idea would be to make the vent to refinery through the ship controls link to the vent going above tram instead of main aft. Water treatment through to tram should be connected somehow as well. Maybe the bottom of the angled elevator could become this new area. Basically, a way to double back around to a hive should be available.
Refinery... oh refinery. This stinks. The biggest complaint is it's size. I hate thinking about wrecking that though. Need to find a way to make it smaller... yet somehow make it still seem big. Perhaps lowering the roof on the far sides of the room, lengthwise, while maintaining some height around the tanks? Bring the little room where the vents lead off to (where the hatch used to be) and the wall above it outwards toward the tanks too.
It's nearly 2am... I'm going to stop mumbling aimlessly and get some sleep.
I won't be improving the new bast as it would take as long (or longer) than making a whole new map. Adding stuff between versions of the same map is easy as hell, and the people that want the door would have... well, that door.
It really isn't worth the effort now... Perhaps for NS2? I don't even know if there'll be an equivalent texture set...
Yeah, I think that's where I what I was getting at, except in my rambling I forgot what my point was. A lot of work and time needs to be put into it. I didn't even cover the playtesting and tweaking that would be required of such substantial changes.
<!--quoteo(post=1603339:date=Feb 1 2007, 07:34 AM:name=Mendasp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mendasp @ Feb 1 2007, 07:34 AM) [snapback]1603339[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I'll say it again:
I won't be improving the new bast as it would take as long (or longer) than making a whole new map. Adding stuff between versions of the same map is easy as hell, and the people that want the door would have... well, that door.
It really isn't worth the effort now... Perhaps for NS2? I don't even know if there'll be an equivalent texture set... <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So you want to add a door for a few oldies to look at and say "GOLLY!" rather than attempting to make the map playable for players to come...
I don't know; if I had the ability to change the map to make it playable, I would do so, or at least hand it to someone who is willing to.
I understand that you have done work on it so far. But it would be a shame to give up and throw your efforts away.
No, no, the thing is... the door issue is easy to solve since it's just a recompile of an old version with a copy & paste of a few things of the new ones, that'll be done in like... one day. And it would give the door to those who want it.
The official bast will still be receiving updates as long as NS is being updated, but don't expect miracles, what most of you want me to do with this map would take awfully long to do.
Please, PLEASE don't put the door back in. It's awful and nobody actually wants it there for gameplay reasons. If you absolutely must, put it somewhere that's not near marine start or a relocate spot.
Well, I finished my exams and... the map is done (I had an initial version done 6 days ago but I couldn't give it the final touches until today). It won't be official, don't worry about that, so I won't force everyone to go back to that version.
I even added the lasers on EM Drill Shaft since it's not going to be an official map, the entity count is about 280 which is pretty good considering the amount of entities the original map had.
I'm going to try to get it tested before I release it to make sure there are no terrible bugs since I don't want to release 50 versions...
Am I the only one that likes all the maps with the "crap" hindering a long, nice (boring) hallway? I can't stand Veil and eclipse is minorly tolerable to myself with its layouts. I like all the ladders and walkways and elevators, spinning chairs and dilly-doos hanging from ceilings. The cramped closterphobic (spelt wrong) walkways with the next-to-nothing lighting and the overall flavor of every one of my favorite maps, be it the old ###### hera, bast, nancy or whatever-else-I'm-missing-because-I-haven't-played-in-eons.
Old bast comm-chair placement... <3 <3 <3 <3 <3... Hell, old bast in general... One of my alltime favorite maps, that and old 1.04 caged + 1.04 hera *CLORF CLORF*... hell, throw nancy in the mix too. RUSH TO MESS HALL, PEOPLE! WE'RE HUNGRY! AND ALIENS ARE ON THE MENU! ... lol
If you'll pardon me for a moment, I find myself humping the air at the mere THOUGHT of bringing ANY of the old maps back to light like this... 'Scuse me.
Comments
<b><!--sizeo:7--><span style="font-size:36pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->BRING BACK BAST! <3<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b>
Nobody plays the current bast, really. The old bast oozed style and coolness. It has some of the most memorable locations in the whole game. Atmo! Ref! That big drillshaft with the electricity zapping all over the place!
As for people getting killed in the revolving door, it's a simple matter to learn not to position yourself on the edge. The door acts as a way of keeping marines grouped together. Enhancing teamwork. The original NS design docs said that there should be parts of the map that cause marines to take check of where they are relative to the rest of their team. Quad lift on ns_nothing, for example. Saying that door is a bad thing because it occasionally kills people is like saying that the pits of death in ns_nothing spawn are a bad thing since you can accidentally fall down them. Or that ANY elevation that could result in a marine dying if he fell off is a bad thing. Typical American thinking. The individual is absolved of any responsibility for his own wellbeing.
/me gently revolves.
--Scythe--
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The door wasn't hated because it occationally killed marines, it was hated because compiled with the massive elevator it made MS incredibly difficult to retreat from as the onos, prolonging games. Not that the little corridor of death is that much better now.
Or if that's too blatant, change the name then provide some generic backstory like it being made by the same manufacturer or whatever, like veil and eclipse.
Don't do it, Mendasp.
It being a classic doesn't mean it has to be played. Just give them an old BSP but leave the current, playable version of bast as it is. Don't make a shiva out of it and reduce bast to mere obscurity. "That map with the buggy door? nah. /votemap ns_veil"
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Playable?
That's like saying that prune juice is "drinkable". It's technically true but nobody wants to do it. Using the argument "Nobody will play it" is bunk since nobody plays the current version anyway.
--Scythe--
If ns_bast_classic does get made, then I demand that someone brings ns_hera_classic up to scratch too <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href="http://mbnet.fi/tomekki/stuff/ns_hera_old.zip" target="_blank">http://mbnet.fi/tomekki/stuff/ns_hera_old.zip</a>
is that classic enough
Having a map playable would work for all, but having it "cool" would only appeal to those older folk who've known bast since... then, which would still make it unplayable.
If you want to make it playable, make some big changes. Add light to those hideously dark areas. Make large areas, especially the hive area, smaller. Bend those long hallways. Remove those vents that actually take longer to get to somewhere, than the fat route.
my god that version of hera is... BAD!
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
God it really is isn't it <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" /> I'd forgotten quite how bad it was...
Still, it had some cool things in there which, looking back, were a bit of a shame to lose; mostly around the maintenance area (the fan with a broken arm, the weldables there etc).
For the most part, its ugly as hell though!
God it really is isn't it <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" /> I'd forgotten quite how bad it was...
Still, it had some cool things in there which, looking back, were a bit of a shame to lose; mostly around the maintenance area (the fan with a broken arm, the weldables there etc).
For the most part, its ugly as hell though!
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Holy moly... that's... it's changed so much. That was the pre-1.00 version wasn't it? I recognized things that had to have been in 1.0 (when I first played it) but not in future versions... man, hera has been absolutely ripped apart and rebuilt!
And yet it is so hard to let go of bast...
Yes, release bast_classic, but let new bast continue to evolve.
Yes, release bast_classic
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's the current plan, but I have 2 weeks of exams and I won't be able to work on it just yet.
As for the new bast... that's another beast... I haven't done any mapping in the last year, so... I don't know if I'll be able to do any substantial changes to it... we'll see.
Edit:
Here's a list of changes (and fixes) I can reimplement from newer versions (3.0 Beta 5 - 3.2) of bast back into the revolving-door version of the map <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> Any objections to these?
- Reduced size of the vent on top of feedwater so marines have to crouch
- Raised Feedwater hive to avoid exploits and making the access to the vent easier
- Moved the Feedwater resource a bit so you can get behind it
- Widened the corridor outside feedwater
- Added vent between Feedwater and Steam Generation
- Fixed Onos spawn issues (redemption / movement chamber) in Feedwater
- Added vent from Feedwater to Atmospheric processing
<i>(I think I should just copy & paste the current feedwater...)</i>
- Moved the res outside of Refinery to Water treatment
- Added vent from Engine to Water Treatment
- Moved the new res (bottom of the main aft lift) closer to Tram Tunnel (like in the current version)
- Added vent between Feedwater and Tram Tunnel (the vent system with several openings in the current version)
- Added lights to the underwater tunnel (Feedwater)
- Tweaked the Tram so the Onos can fit without crouching
- Added vent in Refinery
- Added infestation in Refinery to block the line of sight to the hive from the ramp entrance
- Added some cover in Refinery
- Moved column in Atmospheric Processing more to the center
- Reduced excessive brightness in some areas (lights over the nodes, feedwater, marine spawn) - func_mendasp, heh. Anyone remembers the retina-burning resource nodes? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
These are just so I remember to include some fixes:
- Fixed a lot of areas where the comm shouldn't build (this includes all the weird feedwater spots)
- Fixed strange clipping holes and errors (this includes some stuck issues too)
- Fixed button on the Engine Door
- Fixed stuck point behind the Observe match ladder in the ReadyRoom
I think these features actually enhance the gameplay experience. I mean come one man:
- Bottlenecks and on the other hand outflanking possibilities
- Areas hard to defend for one teamwhile other areas are easier
- Actual welding spots where covering the player who is welding is an absolute must
- Elevators which force marines close together
- 3 seperate hives with 3 different approaches to destroy (Siege, jetty+HMG, HA train)
- And most important more interactivity in a map...
But no, currently its all about. OMG RUN RUN SHOOT FRAG ROUND OVER o.o"
Sounds like combat has infested classic
[edit]
I do have a suggestion though if you want to get the door back in bast (dunno I read it somewhere could even be in this thread <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> )
Make the door simply a circle wall with a small area cut out of the circle and make it rotate arround the players inside the door area. This would not have a rotating floor and players can stand in this area without movement, while the door rotates arround them into the second position. Which opens up the other side...
Exactly.
- Reduced size of the vent on top of feedwater so marines have to crouch
- Raised Feedwater hive to avoid exploits and making the access to the vent easier
- Moved the Feedwater resource a bit so you can get behind it
<strike>- Widened the corridor outside feedwater[/]s
[s]- Added vent between Feedwater and Steam Generation</strike>
- Fixed Onos spawn issues (redemption / movement chamber) in Feedwater
<strike>- Added vent from Feedwater to Atmospheric processing</strike>
<strike>- Moved the res outside of Refinery to Water treatment
- Added vent from Engine to Water Treatment
- Moved the new res (bottom of the main aft lift) closer to Tram Tunnel (like in the current version)
- Added vent between Feedwater and Tram Tunnel (the vent system with several openings in the current version)
</strike>- Added lights to the underwater tunnel (Feedwater)
- Tweaked the Tram so the Onos can fit without crouching
<strike>- Added vent in Refinery</strike>
- Added infestation in Refinery to block the line of sight to the hive from the ramp entrance
- Added some cover in Refinery
- Moved column in Atmospheric Processing more to the center
- Reduced excessive brightness in some areas (lights over the nodes, feedwater, marine spawn) - func_mendasp, heh. Anyone remembers the retina-burning resource nodes? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
These are just so I remember to include some fixes:
- Fixed a lot of areas where the comm shouldn't build (this includes all the weird feedwater spots)
- Fixed strange clipping holes and errors (this includes some stuck issues too)
- Fixed button on the Engine Door
- Fixed stuck point behind the Observe match ladder in the ReadyRoom
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My amendments.
--Scythe--
I think these features actually enhance the gameplay experience. I mean come one man:
- Bottlenecks and on the other hand outflanking possibilities -system waypointing-
- Areas hard to defend for one teamwhile other areas are easier -cargo is pretty much painful for the marines to hold vs lerkys, almost everything apart from system vs 2nd hivers-
- Actual welding spots where covering the player who is welding is an absolute must -dbl vents-
- Elevators which force marines close together -well... the one between pipe and dome is close enough-
- 3 seperate hives with 3 different approaches to destroy (Siege, jetty+HMG, HA train) -not really possible with the game blance as it is now, but some are more worth sieging/jp'ing than the others-
- And most important more interactivity in a map...
But no, currently its all about. OMG RUN RUN SHOOT FRAG ROUND OVER o.o"
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A bit of derailing and stuff, but I think I can find pretty much all these in veil, probably the most architecturally simple map in the game.
Oh and bast used to be a nice map, but I think it needs huge changes to get good again. At least the gathers I've played in the old bast in 3.0 have been quite painful.
I'd vie for the latter.
Several long hallways have to go. Tram tunnels is suicide for aliens. So is that hallway with that long elevator. Break up that area between the hallways as it is a too dominate area for marines.
Reduce the useless size of refinery. Remove the useless vents around MS. Make the central area with the ship controls a playable area, such as make it wider, add a RT, etc.
It's far too easy to get to engine, even with the changes. The left side of the map feels like it has no purpose, since double was removed. Add vents allowing faster transportation between hives.
Brighten up feedwater, remove the water vent, but keep it "watery" just for the name. Add more twists and turns, boxes, crates, for skulk cover.
The basic layout is bast's biggest vice. I really need to look at an overhead view of it (don't see it much since nobody wants to play it...) but like Smood said, atmos without double rts really shows how off in la-la land it is. This route is direct to a hive with no real alternative. Bear with me as I generalize here, but I think atmos ought to link up with main aft. Obviously, this would require a pile of reshaping and such, but atmos needs to link to somewhere else. Main aft -> engine is another route less travelled. I think it would be preferable to have a route from engine to feed that doesn't involve main aft, ms or refinery as well.
Right now, and for as long as I can remember, main aft is/has been "the" place to be. It links to all three hives with 5 routes for marines to use to get to hives. 6 routes including back through to ms. Whoever holds that room wins. Would a route to atmos make it worse? Yes. But this is where more changes would have to be made, as just opening a new door to atmos is right out. This room needs to be divided up one way or another. One idea would be to make the vent to refinery through the ship controls link to the vent going above tram instead of main aft. Water treatment through to tram should be connected somehow as well. Maybe the bottom of the angled elevator could become this new area. Basically, a way to double back around to a hive should be available.
Refinery... oh refinery. This stinks. The biggest complaint is it's size. I hate thinking about wrecking that though. Need to find a way to make it smaller... yet somehow make it still seem big. Perhaps lowering the roof on the far sides of the room, lengthwise, while maintaining some height around the tanks? Bring the little room where the vents lead off to (where the hatch used to be) and the wall above it outwards toward the tanks too.
It's nearly 2am... I'm going to stop mumbling aimlessly and get some sleep.
I won't be improving the new bast as it would take as long (or longer) than making a whole new map. Adding stuff between versions of the same map is easy as hell, and the people that want the door would have... well, that door.
It really isn't worth the effort now... Perhaps for NS2? I don't even know if there'll be an equivalent texture set...
I'll say it again:
I won't be improving the new bast as it would take as long (or longer) than making a whole new map. Adding stuff between versions of the same map is easy as hell, and the people that want the door would have... well, that door.
It really isn't worth the effort now... Perhaps for NS2? I don't even know if there'll be an equivalent texture set...
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So you want to add a door for a few oldies to look at and say "GOLLY!" rather than attempting to make the map playable for players to come...
I don't know; if I had the ability to change the map to make it playable, I would do so, or at least hand it to someone who is willing to.
I understand that you have done work on it so far. But it would be a shame to give up and throw your efforts away.
The official bast will still be receiving updates as long as NS is being updated, but don't expect miracles, what most of you want me to do with this map would take awfully long to do.
I even added the lasers on EM Drill Shaft since it's not going to be an official map, the entity count is about 280 which is pretty good considering the amount of entities the original map had.
I'm going to try to get it tested before I release it to make sure there are no terrible bugs since I don't want to release 50 versions...
If you'll pardon me for a moment, I find myself humping the air at the mere THOUGHT of bringing ANY of the old maps back to light like this... 'Scuse me.