Combat is not the problem...
Shadow_Spork
Join Date: 2005-01-07 Member: 33306Members
Join Date: 2005-01-07 Member: 33306Members
<div class="IPBDescription">...nor the solution to your problem...</div>(Before I get into my "rambling" I just want to say that if anyone just diss the game or debate anything other than what I'm about to say in this topic, then you're already beating a dead horse into pulp. I too may be beating a dead horse into pulp, but that's beside the point. You can discuss about what I'm about to say, but that's it. If you want to debate, then go ahead and make your own topic, because you have that choice. Moving on...)
The problem with NS with Combat I think is far greater than it is in terms of learning. Granted that people stick with CO because there's a learning curve into Classic mode, but I think that problem goes deeper.
In today's society, many things are getting simplified for the sake of convenience. People just want to get things in an instant with a touch of a button, or a flick of a switch. For example, we've all seen those advertisements where many of those inventions are for the sake of simplification and convenience, like one of those easy cutters that can cut potatoes into fries in an instant instead of just using a knife and doing it by hand without cutting yourself. It's convenient, but in time you get dependent on it. Then one day, you misplace it or you have to go somewhere for a while. You want to make fries, but you don't have your handy tool with you. So you have to use a knife, but are you actually comfortable with it? That lies the question.
This same concept goes to NS. In the beginning (before version 3.x.x), you had to learn everything. How to command, how to build, how to drop a chamber, etc. Eventually, everyone learned how to play the game, and eventually you get good at the game, and maybe gained some skills along the way, which takes practice and learning from mistakes. If you go back to my previous example, the same applies to making fries, and to do that you need a knife. Once you get chopping, you'll eventually get better at it with practice.
Then came Combat. By the looks of it, the game would gain a lot more people to get into playing Natural Selection. It's easy, you have the same characters, and you just fight with instant kills with less time to waste. Then when a Classic map is being played, you're wondering why you have to build res towers or why you can't get an ability without the appropriate chamber. Same thing with this new invention of an instant fries maker type-of-thing. This contraption instantly makes fries with little effort. Same results as you wanted, with less time to waste. Therefore, you can make more fries.
Now to sum things up, people just want things right away. They don't want to learn, and there's very little or no thinking involved. Most people who play Combat tends to not think, and they just want frags with little time and nothing else without gaining any skill because it takes effort to learn. With Classic, it actually takes effort to learn everything, and requires thinking and strategy, and with that, you gain skill with time. As you can see people, this type of problem with today's NS does not only apply with this game, but applies to our today's society. We can't change what's going on now, but we can emphasize on options and choices. You can't live an easy life without working hard for it, and that takes effort. If you want the easy way out, then good luck with that because there is no easy way out, and that's reality.
This is one of many problems facing NS, but I think this is THE problem with NS. People just don't want to learn how to play, so we might as well have to focus on choices. You can play the easy way and get nothing out of it over time, or play the hard way and get something out of it over time. It's all up to you. Natural Selection is just that, and there's nothing we can do about it.
The problem with NS with Combat I think is far greater than it is in terms of learning. Granted that people stick with CO because there's a learning curve into Classic mode, but I think that problem goes deeper.
In today's society, many things are getting simplified for the sake of convenience. People just want to get things in an instant with a touch of a button, or a flick of a switch. For example, we've all seen those advertisements where many of those inventions are for the sake of simplification and convenience, like one of those easy cutters that can cut potatoes into fries in an instant instead of just using a knife and doing it by hand without cutting yourself. It's convenient, but in time you get dependent on it. Then one day, you misplace it or you have to go somewhere for a while. You want to make fries, but you don't have your handy tool with you. So you have to use a knife, but are you actually comfortable with it? That lies the question.
This same concept goes to NS. In the beginning (before version 3.x.x), you had to learn everything. How to command, how to build, how to drop a chamber, etc. Eventually, everyone learned how to play the game, and eventually you get good at the game, and maybe gained some skills along the way, which takes practice and learning from mistakes. If you go back to my previous example, the same applies to making fries, and to do that you need a knife. Once you get chopping, you'll eventually get better at it with practice.
Then came Combat. By the looks of it, the game would gain a lot more people to get into playing Natural Selection. It's easy, you have the same characters, and you just fight with instant kills with less time to waste. Then when a Classic map is being played, you're wondering why you have to build res towers or why you can't get an ability without the appropriate chamber. Same thing with this new invention of an instant fries maker type-of-thing. This contraption instantly makes fries with little effort. Same results as you wanted, with less time to waste. Therefore, you can make more fries.
Now to sum things up, people just want things right away. They don't want to learn, and there's very little or no thinking involved. Most people who play Combat tends to not think, and they just want frags with little time and nothing else without gaining any skill because it takes effort to learn. With Classic, it actually takes effort to learn everything, and requires thinking and strategy, and with that, you gain skill with time. As you can see people, this type of problem with today's NS does not only apply with this game, but applies to our today's society. We can't change what's going on now, but we can emphasize on options and choices. You can't live an easy life without working hard for it, and that takes effort. If you want the easy way out, then good luck with that because there is no easy way out, and that's reality.
This is one of many problems facing NS, but I think this is THE problem with NS. People just don't want to learn how to play, so we might as well have to focus on choices. You can play the easy way and get nothing out of it over time, or play the hard way and get something out of it over time. It's all up to you. Natural Selection is just that, and there's nothing we can do about it.
Comments
then some people just wrote the first thing that came to their head and posted it on the internet
then everything got nuked and the world ended M-M-M-Monster hiku!
I like combat.
NS has objectives, strategy, <i>interesting</i> gameplay in it. Combat has jetpacks that throw themselves at a hive over and over so they can... throw themselves at the hive over and over next game.
There's no variety, there's no subtlety besides aiming and fading. Those are great minigames but the whole should be greater than the sum of its parts. That's what makes for a truly dynamic experience.
If I wanted to throw myself at a target in a linear game, I'd go play counterstrike.
EDIT: This was not a double-post when it was first added.
..seriously speaking now co didn't bring anything 'good' to ns. It only brought new players to ns who simply refuse to work as a team or think. I won't sit here and say, its not FUN...but under what price is that? the quality of the game went down.
The real problem is not combat, it's the fact the game developers have been unwilling to run different gameplay settings for both combat and classic, you can't balance both; let alone for multiple combinations of player slots. It wouldn't take much to break and discourage terrible co server plugins and balance combat and classic separately.
I don't play competitive ns anymore (no time and it's a joke now), but I do pub combat just because its lollers to go 30-0 with sg and watch the server rage. It's far more fun than 30player pub classic servers despite xmenu tbh. I personally don't enjoy fighting 50 static oc/turret farms with boring 30-minute 2 hive lockdowns which everyone seems to absolutely <i>love</i> on pubs and I can't figure out for the life of me why.
And as Charlie himself said. Combat is for those who don't have time to play Large NS maps.
Or at least that is what i think he said. . .
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I personally don't enjoy fighting 50 static oc/turret farms with boring 30-minute 2 hive lockdowns which everyone seems to absolutely love on pubs and I can't figure out for the life of me why.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Neither do i gief static nerf it is so annoying.
i still think combat helps intoduce players, cause im proof of that. i started ns on 3.0beta1 and i went from combat only in the beginning to being a competant competitive player. and im sure there are others like me out there, so combat is working
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I'm one of them also, <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wow.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":0" border="0" alt="wow.gif" /> I went from combat to classic and now i find combat the most boring thing ever
but classic can be boring with those 2 hive lockdowns =\
with the message "learn ns"
and i did.
i still suck greatly at the game.
but i despise the cycle of having to play combat endlessly to grind your skillz to be a killingmachine.
i dont see how i can enjoy the game by being ololol so pr0
perhaps i am one of them that thrives in great resistance.
but speaking of that,i never fade,i rarely go lerk and if i am needed i onos.
you will allmost always find me as a skulk or a gorge.
simply because i like being at the back.i dont see that in combat.
an endless game of "plunge yourself at your opponents" never appealed to me.
especially not with lvl 200cybernetics or something retarded like that.
a marine that can <b>outrun</b> a celerity fade is just ridiculous.
its not ns,it never will be in my heart,its counterstrike with wc3 mod enabled.
its like putting makeup on a corpse,it wont get prettier.
the /stuckmod and /amxmod is all you really need.not even /amx if you think about it.
/admin works just fine.
to say that NS as a whole is dying because of combat seems a little pointless with this arguement, because NS still will exist as combat. What combat is killing is what you, and the majority of the people on this forum, like so much.
Do you think that Classic would be popular if Combat never existed? OR maybe without combat NS would just die..
Many people, as I have observed, see Combat as the downfall of Classic and concurrently the downfall of Natural Selection as a whole. This is partially the case: at the time when Combat was introduced, overall play-hours of Classic decreased. This correlation is often cited as "the beginning of the end", however, the novelty of a new game-type that is far more accessible ultimately led to this: this is to say that while Combat did indeed detract from Classic, the overall interest is Classic was not necessarily removed, as it was merely a shift in the present player base (taking into account people leaving and joining as per the natural cycles of a game) to accommodate a disparate (though not necessarily detrimental) game-type.
The near-collapse of the casual community is ultimately the reason for the proliferation of Combat play. Combat would be better thought of as a catalyst to the perceived drop in Classic play (both in terms of quantitative play-hours and the far more fickle qualitative player ability). As experienced players dropped from the scene due to anomalous site and community issues, the players interested in the game were disheartened by the learning curve and were also lacking the chance to have a fruitful experience in Classic. An enjoyable game for a novice does not have to be victory, but the sense that one has accomplished something, either by learning tactical/strategic points, having excellent teamplay, or merely enjoying the company of the surrounding players. Faced with a dwindling chance of having a community or "team" to expand with, these players switched (or were merely born) to Combat. Companionship and teamwork, while game-winning, is not necessary to enjoy Combat, and as such these new players merely fell into the mold of playing Combat and avoiding Classic almost entirely.
While new player interest in the game has probably had a downward arc, I do not imagine it is as low as one might think: rather, it is the game's lack of "stick" that has lead to a player base that, of the moment, seems to be shrinking ever so slightly. The chance that a new player would experience an accomplished Classic game fell dramatically as many of the experienced-but-not-necessarily-veteran players dropped off the map, having no convenient place to converse and share ideas. Veterans (by this I mean those either extremely able at the game or clan members), whether they intend to or not, invariably give off the aura of elitism. With the Classic game type proving daunting and on average more unfulfilling to a novice of the usual sort, the "stick" and allure stood (and stands) more within the bounds of whether or not these new players enjoy Combat. I would go so far as to call these experienced-but-not-necessarily-veteran players the middle class of NS. Anyone who knows anything about anything, ever ( <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> ) should know that a strong middle class will ultimately purport a successful government or, in this case, a strong middle player-base (the casual and moderately consistent) will ultimately purport a game.
It is thusly that Combat became a more dominant and superficially threatening game-type to the revered Classic, when in fact it was merely the drop in casual community Classic players to aid in the proliferation (or at least sustaining) of the Classic game-type. The problem seems indomitable, as any new update merely seems to appease those who do play Classic - those who don't merely pass it off as another pandering iteration to a game (or game-type, at least) that they probably believe will become extinct. Who wants to play the type of game that is rarely rewarding or inviting? Why not just enjoy the game that I know I'll enjoy? Some may place their own experience as a testament to the folly of this: the fact of the matter is that you who think such things are a unique sort, not of the stamp of your "average" gamer.
I do not know what the devs for NS wish to accomplish. If it is a niche game with a niche community and a strange combat appendage as some fallen hope of inviting more players, then that is all there is to it. If they want to have the community truly revitalized, the current beta (save the usual bug fixes) should be the end of NS iterations on the Half-Life engine. People will be interested when they see a new game, with a new face, and a new chance at entertainment, even if it happens to be relatively the same. I state my case again with people not changing much: the superficial appearance for most often outweighs the truth or depth of the matter. People want a fun game to play. In order to revitalize (or just revamp) the community and NS in general, the NS team will need to cater to early adopters of their new games like NS:Source and NS2, and in doing so encourage a strong player-base of experienced players who enjoy a romp with a friend or helping someone through the game, but aren't necessarily devoted life-and-limb to competing in clans. I have a great deal more to say about this, how to implement the necessary ways in order to enliven this skeletal community and make NS worthy of the praise it deserves: however, every fellow must sleep, and it is with this in mind that I must retire for the night (which, by the way, is a really fun way of saying I'm going to sleep, I'm 'effin tired. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> ).
That, and the fact that <!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:red--><span style="color:red"><!--/coloro-->ns' balance doesn't scale based on player count<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> We <i>still</i> can't start a server without making lerk bots or switching to combat. <!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Why wouldn't you fix that in the first iteration?<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
How are we supposed to start a server that will be unbalanced until at least 7 more people join?
Also:
<!--quoteo(post=1606862:date=Feb 15 2007, 01:13 PM:name=F4tManMGS2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(F4tManMGS2 @ Feb 15 2007, 01:13 PM) [snapback]1606862[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->to say that NS as a whole is dying because of combat seems a little pointless with this arguement, because NS still will exist as combat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right. So if you fell off a bridge and lost your ability to think critically, you'd still be the same person, you'd just exist as "Ug". Which is totally fine.
Let's also say that very few people liked me, and that once I became Ug I became a pop-star. Yes, people love singing cavemen. Why do you think Geico is so popular?
To bring it back into perspective, yes, NS is dying as we know it. Another game called NS, which is combat, is resurfacing which a lot of people seem to like more. Personally I like NS and CO; I typically play CO, but a good NS game is fun too. And as long as communities such as these will exist, I'm going to bet that servers that just play vanilla NS will. They won't be many, but there will be enough to satiate a good percentage of people who still like the old NS.
i say it everytime and ill say it again, CO killed NS imo
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you aren't the only one.
next fps/rts to come out and be decent i'm going there.
and it is tragic that the fun is slowing being patched away from NS (and by NS i mean classic)
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By "a lot of people", what percentage of <a href="http://www.steampowered.com/v/index.php?area=stats&cc=CA" target="_blank">~600 people on average</a> are you talking about? How many of the 240 or so servers actually have people on them? Last time I checked, there are about 9 playable servers in total in NA. I'm not sure about EU.
Combat didn't kill NS, it's still very much alive. However, it certainly didn't age gracefully for various reasons. However, CO was probably one of the best things to happen to NS in terms of popularity.
Why? Not simplicity, not cause it's "easier", it's just the right amount of strategy and first person shooting action.
In regular NS, it's kind of hindered. Like I really enjoy playing Marines vs Kharaa right, well in NS I am limited by what the Commander wants. Build this, defend this point, take over that resource point, etc I can't just grab a weapon, ammo and go off kicking ###### on my own. I can, technically but in the end the Commander doesn't give weapons and equipment to soldiers who don't listen to his orders. For Kharaa, you can do as you please pretty much but you still need to work together which I like. The only downside is I'm not all that great at Kharaa and their playstyle doesn't suit me, I like a gun, armor, various weapons. While the aliens do offer some projectile weaponry they aren't as great as the human counter parts, in my opinion.
In Combat, there is no Commander for Marines. I can go as I please, do as I please, and play as I want. Sure I will be limited by the experience I myself gain, but at the same time I am not limited. If I want to sit back and defend, I can. If I want to charge forward, I can, I don't need permission or the Commander's wishes. Same for Kharaa, just in a more group fighting scenario.
The only argument I've heard before (not this thread) is people complaining about server plugins that have "ruined the game". If anything I think they made it more balanced. For example, vanilla Combat lets Kharaa have a huge advantage. Example; You and a few other Marines are standing in your base defending, all have level 3 HMG's, HA and max armor. A carapaced, celerity, regening, redemptioning charging Onos can come flying in, Devour a Marine, and run back out long before he's close to dead and there's like no way to stop him. Sure you could form some kind of human body blocking wall to make him run around/over/past you but even so that's not buying you much more time to kill him. And even then he still has a chance to redem. That's just one thing in vanilla Combat that is overpowered for Kharaa. Now a server with AMXX plugins like Xmenu, Marines can load up on much higher powered ammunition so those couple HMG's can deal with an Onos, it'll still take several Marines to do it but they have a chance now.
I like original NS, it's not bad it's just not for my tastes. I really love how they managed to blend RTS/FPS into one game. However the long game times tend to drag on, Marines dependant apon Commander's, etc. Hell one thing I do hate about regular NS, public servers never let you practice being a Commander. I mean, that's the only way to get better eh? Practice? Every time I try to be a Commander in a public server, I'm always ejected as Commander. No one is willing to give you the chance. I hate that, I really do. I think that is one big reason I despise NS regular in some fashions, you shouldn't need to go join some team or private server in order to play a specific role better so people in public servers will give you a damn chance.
Hell one thing I do hate about regular NS, public servers never let you practice being a Commander. I mean, that's the only way to get better eh? Practice? Every time I try to be a Commander in a public server, I'm always ejected as Commander. No one is willing to give you the chance. I hate that, I really do. I think that is one big reason I despise NS regular in some fashions, you shouldn't need to go join some team or private server in order to play a specific role better so people in public servers will give you a damn chance.
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I know how you feel, I'm not a great comm but I want to learn. Unfortunately, the player base is changing, and the people who once played NS (in my oppinion, the more open to beginners) got diluted with all the other people that aren't as open (who were in part brought in by CO).
The general servers I play on aren't like those kinds of servers (alot of 3.2 beta servers are really welcoming <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> ). Have you tried maybe asking if you can go beforehand, just so they don't think you are someone who will ruin the game?
Anyway, before i get off track, its a tough reality with NS these days, mostly for the big servers. There are however some good servers (Tactical Gamer being my all time favourite) left over who are really nice, you just got to look for them.
PS. I love NS. Im pretty sure CO had brought the gameplay quality down in some way, directly or indirectly, or at least split the community. I like CO too (I'm only good at gorge, so no CO for me <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />) and don't blame it too much. I wasn't there in the 2.x days, so i dunno too much about what im talking about <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />.
By "a lot of people", what percentage of <a href="http://www.steampowered.com/v/index.php?area=stats&cc=CA" target="_blank">~600 people on average</a> are you talking about? How many of the 240 or so servers actually have people on them? Last time I checked, there are about 9 playable servers in total in NA. I'm not sure about EU.
Combat didn't kill NS, it's still very much alive. However, it certainly didn't age gracefully for various reasons. However, CO was probably one of the best things to happen to NS in terms of popularity.
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I can't quote statistics here, but the people who disagree with you are: The people who play combat!
You said it yourself:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS:Combat is drawing players in, NS:Classic is not as successful as NS:Combat
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Combat has more players for a reason: they like it.
As for your count of playable servers, there may be 9 playable to you, but not everyone has the same "requirements" for a server that you're defining. I've played on many different 3.1 servers, and I'd probably count 20ish active servers I see.
And Im sorry if this isnt relevant to your post; I was having a little trouble gathering my thoughts and trying to figure out what exactly it was im arguing here. Im a little tired.
But the problem is that there are too many servers playing combat. In Europe, there are about 20 servers with players: 5 playing classic (with at least 8 players) and 15 playing combat... (and on the majority of them there is only a NS-HLTV...)
Maybe, now, God should save the NS servers instead of the Queen <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
In any case, you sound like you'd enjoy counterstrike far more than a tactical shooter like ns. To each his own.
Maverick, you have a point that commanders can be limiting. But if you played with good people, you might realize that decent commanders aren't about killing your fun with menial jobs, they're about facilitating you winning the game, even if it compromises your ability to rambo.
In any case, you sound like you'd enjoy counterstrike far more than a tactical shooter like ns. To each his own.
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I don't mind the menial jobs, it needs to be done on both sides, Marine and Kharaa. It's just in my experience I always seem to be stuck with the menial jobs in NS_ games. Like 3 of us will respawn for example and 2 get the upgraded weapons and equipment, I get a welder and maybe a shotgun to defend the base. I don't mind doing that, it helps the "team" but ya know everyone wants to get some fun in at some point. I'd really love to practice Commandering itself but as said I'm not going to find a private server that has people that will give me that chance nor do I want to spend all this time finding one of the few remaining competitive teams that might be recruiting to let me in, and give me a chance at it.
I like CS just fine, it's a nice game. But it has it's flaws, it's way too dependent on stealth. Constantly having to hide, sneak around corners and stuff, sure it's fun at first but it gets old. And I really hate how any average joe who could afford to buy a nice rifle in a round could just head shot you through boxes, walls etc (not cheaters but just people who knew where you were and used the firing through walls to their advantage).
I love NS. I'm a big science fiction geek when it comes to tv and movies. Trekkie through and through, seen all the Alien/Predator movies, played Starcraft till my eyes were bloodshot, NS is my kind of game. I just tend to disagree that NS_ games are necessarily better than CO_ games.
Anyway, a comm without a good team listening to his orders is nothing, and a good team needn't any comm <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> Except to build a deloc' at main hive <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
..seriously speaking now co didn't bring anything 'good' to ns. It only brought new players to ns
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YES THIS IS AWESOME
I'M GLAD YOU GUYS AREN'T THE ONES MAKING THE GAME
<!--quoteo(post=1608691:date=Feb 23 2007, 07:59 AM:name=Porcepic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Porcepic @ Feb 23 2007, 07:59 AM) [snapback]1608691[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
the problem is that there are too many servers playing combat. In Europe, there are about 20 servers with players: 5 playing classic (with at least 8 players) and 15 playing combat...
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So basically natural selection is at play in Natural Selection, with the weaker game type becoming less popular? Maybe the irony will amplify further with the Natural Selection game type of the Natural Selection game being naturally selected out of the server selection altogether. That would be pretty crazy eh