<!--quoteo(post=1607605:date=Feb 18 2007, 02:12 PM:name=Khaze)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Khaze @ Feb 18 2007, 02:12 PM) [snapback]1607605[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> But WHY? For what possible or impossible reason? This is the question I've been wondering.
For what possible reason should we do ANYTHING?
WHY should we reproduce? So we our children could imagine new things and make new technological breakthroughs? But WHY? Why should we achieve new technologies? Even if we DID live in the Matrix, why would the machines use our bodies to gain energy? For what reason? To multiply? Why would they multiply?
Why why why why? Why should we wonder about the meaning of life? Why should we bother with anything? .... see my point?
one answer: TO BE THE BIGGEST BADDEST LIFEFORM ON EARTH, AND ONE DAY MORE! that is our goal as a species. "any creature that attacks a human being deserves to be torn limb from limb"
Meh. The guy who climbed into the lion den at a zoo proclaiming "God will protect me" and had his carotid artery severed by a lioness? The lioness has my full support. She actually improved our collective gene pool through her actions.
<!--quoteo(post=1614267:date=Mar 14 2007, 12:43 PM:name=Crotalus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crotalus @ Mar 14 2007, 12:43 PM) [snapback]1614267[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> KainTSA, Does this mean you believe in determinism? That everything occurs according to what was setup at the beginning? Cause if that is the case, then there shouldn't be any question as to why anything is, besides "why was it a random number generator." That would basically solve all problems with the question because everything originated from a completely random number generator, and is progressing on a set track with no seperating paths. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I guess I do lean towards determinism. At least I think its the only way to get around the infinite "why" questions. Instead of answering it I say that the question doesn't make sense. Maybe that's just cheating though <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1614267:date=Mar 14 2007, 12:43 PM:name=Crotalus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crotalus @ Mar 14 2007, 12:43 PM) [snapback]1614267[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> The 2nd law of thermodynamics states that higher ordered systems MUST progress to highly disordered systems. Life can be seen as a force that is fighting this push towards "chaos" because every single life form is becoming more complex than it's predecessor (atleast Earth life is). Except the fact that everytime something of higher order is made, more disorder is generate. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah the thing to keep in mind about the trend to entropy is that it takes into account the SYSTEM AND SURROUNDINGS. In other words, order can be created in one place if it results in a decrease in order in other places. For us, our bodies order is maintained at the expense of heat, which is disorder. I think you have this concept spot on but I just want to make sure its clear for anyone else reading.
To me though, Entropy and determinism are not at odds at all. I believe what we call disorder only appears to be random. For example if you look at a room full of gas and saw all of the individual molecules zooming around every which way it would look very disordered. However if you followed one atom its movement would make sense based on the collisions and forces it feels.
Of course when you get down to the positions of electrons in an atom probability is all you can predict. Some would say it is completely random where an electron will be but I would say WE just can't tell where it would be. Regning theory is its chaos but I don't buy it. Incidentally, neither did Einstein. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> He was famous for his quote "God does not play dice with the universe"
<edit> So I guess to sum up, Determinism answers the "Why" question with a resounding "Because"
When it comes down to it the meaning of life is death, so what is the meaning of death? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1614973:date=Mar 16 2007, 09:55 PM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Thaldarin @ Mar 16 2007, 09:55 PM) [snapback]1614973[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> When it comes down to it the meaning of life is death, so what is the meaning of death? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Stop being absurd.
Just because life ends up as death does not mean that death is the meaning of life.
Stop trying to give meaning to a meaningless void.
<!--quoteo(post=1615120:date=Mar 17 2007, 03:39 PM:name=Rob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rob @ Mar 17 2007, 03:39 PM) [snapback]1615120[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I think the best way to answer "Why?" is to ask "Why not?" <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thank god, we do not base our law system on this!
Judge: I am sentencing you to death! Accused: But why, I am innocent. Judge: Why not.
--- Seriously: Just accepting things as they are without wanting to know whats behind all this is against human nature. Hell, the idea of God was solely developed for the purpose of explaining lightning, the tide, full-moon, eclipse etc. Its dumb and foolish. Just like answering: "Where does the electricity come from." with "From the outlet.".
<!--quoteo(post=1616053:date=Mar 21 2007, 10:59 AM:name=Faskalia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Faskalia @ Mar 21 2007, 10:59 AM) [snapback]1616053[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Thank god, we do not base our law system on this!
Judge: I am sentencing you to death! Accused: But why, I am innocent. Judge: Why not.
--- Seriously: Just accepting things as they are without wanting to know whats behind all this is against human nature. Hell, the idea of God was solely developed for the purpose of explaining lightning, the tide, full-moon, eclipse etc. Its dumb and foolish. Just like answering: "Where does the electricity come from." with "From the outlet.". <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or maybe he just accepts that the meaning of life is too complicated for us to ever comprehend, so we might as well stop trying and just enjoy ourselves? Or maybe there isn't one?
<!--quoteo(post=1616053:date=Mar 21 2007, 03:59 PM:name=Faskalia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Faskalia @ Mar 21 2007, 03:59 PM) [snapback]1616053[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Seriously: Just accepting things as they are without wanting to know whats behind all this is against human nature.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Human nature? What "human nature"? Only reason you say there's a human nature is because you choose to follow what everyone else dictates humans are.
Humans are greedy, curious etc? ###### no. The moment you think "It's my nature to be greedy", you stop it (or at least can stop it).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Its dumb and foolish. Just like answering: "Where does the electricity come from." with "From the outlet.".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except we produce electricity - we can easily answer where that comes from because there's a set answer. Asking the meaning of life is pointless because, without a God, there can't be one. Thus, discussing such a subject constantly just leads you to a constant argument of bullish.
Everybody cool down! I've been tolerating this topic (since it's actually really close to Religion Vs Science and thus illegal by amendment one of the rules) and so far everyone's been really good about it. Don't mess it up now! I have faith in everyone's ability to not be an idiot!
<!--quoteo(post=1615121:date=Mar 17 2007, 03:54 PM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lolfighter @ Mar 17 2007, 03:54 PM) [snapback]1615121[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Douglas Adams said that too. And I agree with him. I never understood why I should justify my existence. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I guess I should elaborate a little, then. Of course I understand the question of "why are we here." And sometimes I've even lost sleep over it, and that's not just a figure of speech. But that's all I've accomplished - losing sleep. As a matter of pride, many of us have a hard time accepting our limitations. But I've accepted one of mine - that I lack the intellect and insight to gain an understanding of the universe so complete as to explain our purpose (or lack thereof) for being here. A lot of people, consciously or not, have reached that conclusion. I'm willing to leave the definite answer to that question to others whose capabilities exceed mine. I have a hunch that the answer will eventually be found in the field of physics, but that's neither here nor there, and pure speculation. But in order to get any sleep at all, I need to have an answer to that question, even just a preliminary one. And basically, I see two approaches: Accepting a pre-made answer, whether founded on faith or otherwise, or coming up with your own. It doesn't have to be the definite, true one - we've already established that THAT one is outside my reach - it just has to be one that works. In my case, I've decided that the answer, unceremoniously, is "I'm here because I'm here." Does that make any sense? Maybe not to you, but that's not the point. The point is that it helps me sleep at night and it doesn't harm others.
I recognize the importance of not deceiving myself. I fully recognize that my answer to that difficult question is not definite. It's a placeholder. It fills out a void that feels unpleasant when there's nothing there.
So in short, my answer to the question "why" is a preliminary "why not." It's not deep or idealistic, but it works.
<!--quoteo(post=1616064:date=Mar 21 2007, 12:38 PM:name=Nil_IQ)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Nil_IQ @ Mar 21 2007, 12:38 PM) [snapback]1616064[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Or maybe he just accepts that the meaning of life is too complicated for us to ever comprehend, so we might as well stop trying and just enjoy ourselves? Or maybe there isn't one? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> that is exactly how humans are different from every other animal... theres like an urge in our nature to, as a species, strive for greater echelons of consciousness. you cant tell the entire human race to just lay back and enjoy themselves, get high, have sex, whatever floats your boat. there'll always be people like aristotle or tsielkovsky or einstein.
<!--quoteo(post=1616065:date=Mar 21 2007, 12:40 PM:name=Jimmeh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jimmeh @ Mar 21 2007, 12:40 PM) [snapback]1616065[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Except we produce electricity - we can easily answer where that comes from because there's a set answer. Asking the meaning of life is pointless because, without a God, there can't be one. Thus, discussing such a subject constantly just leads you to a constant argument of bullish.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"we produce life - we can easily answer its meaning". this could well be a quote from some starfaring alien race with access to every piece of knowledge in the universe. but heres the point: simply because you dont know the answer to a question, doesnt mean that either a) there isnt one, or b) the answer is "god". open up a history book and see for yourself that its been tried before with little success.
<!--quoteo(post=1616372:date=Mar 23 2007, 01:04 AM:name=TOmekki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TOmekki @ Mar 23 2007, 01:04 AM) [snapback]1616372[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"we produce life - we can easily answer its meaning". this could well be a quote from some starfaring alien race with access to every piece of knowledge in the universe. but heres the point: simply because you dont know the answer to a question, doesnt mean that either a) there isnt one, or b) the answer is "god". open up a history book and see for yourself that its been tried before with little success.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You misunderstand me. My point was that if there is no way to determine an answer to the meaning of life (which, without a God, there can't be a meaning due to nothing to create a meaning) it's pointless discussing it over and over and over and over and over etc. I mean, hey, it's fun to discuss when you're drunk every now and then, but otherwise what's the point since it'll be a completely absurd discussion?
i never said it was a sensible topic to discuss <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Actually what makes us different than the rest of the life forms of earth is contemplation. We can contemplate our own death, we know life is limited, and we take steps to ensure that point B death is as far away from point A birth, as possible. To be conscious is to be human. As for what is the meaning of life? TO MAKE YOUR HYPHEN MEAN SOMETHING. To be honest I believe the meaning of life is to make life worth it. Things like being successful, having a family, making a name for yourself, these are all things that would make my life worth it. Obviously to a serial killer, killing as many people as possible would make their life "worth it." As you can see it changes from person to person, but making your life worth it does not.
Therefore the meaning of life is to ensure that your life has meaning.
[edit] And how can you say there can be no meaning of something without a God? I create plenty of meaning for the things I do/experience and that I see others doing/experiencing right here in my own mind. Does that mean God is in all of our brains creating meaning for the things we do?[/edit]
Meaning of life? As a physics student I stay with the anthropic principle, i.e. "<i>The universe appears "fine-tuned" so as to permit life as we know it to exist, because were the universe not fine tuned in this fashion, human beings would not exist and hence could not observe the universe.</i>".
Another possible answer can be found in heat death/entropy, which was mentioned already. It's the one thing that every process in the universe have in common, whether it's life, fusion reactions in stars or volcanoes on mars: To increase overall entropy. Life does that in a very efficient manner, so it can be interpreted as some kind of meaning.
But although I know that, I often enough feel like lolfighter (lack of sleep). I sometimes feel even guilty because I accepted those simple answers for some time. Universe is just so ridiculously complex that these answers seem like a joke. That's the one thing I envy the many religious people on this planet - they've found peace of mind by accepting an answer, be it right or wrong.
Just one question at this point, and yes... I read the ENTIRE dang thread:
Concerning Entropy and well, yes the inevitable heat death: How is that increasing chaos? Once all the energy there is has been converted to heat, things to me would seem fairly uniform and orderly... at least to me. But maybe I'm trying to look at the big picture from the wrong perspective...
It's been about 5+ years since my last college physics class, and I'm a little rusty on the topic, so please don’t let my apparent forgetfulness offend you.
Now, for better or worse in this topic: I AM a Christian. And I'm not going to try and hide that fact.
...but, I'm not going to just try to discredit anyone else's belief of / view on life because they are not the same as my own (I don’t fit into that stereotype at least). Though, I do usually take anything being touted as even coming close the "meaning of life" with skepticism. But that is because a lot of people out there seem have trouble thinking even on a 3-Dimensional level, much less 4 and beyond. Something that I've been hearing in my physics classes as far back as high school. That's not to say we are incapable of finding the right answer, it's just that it doesn't seem probable that we'll just come up with the right answer to the right question with the information that we currently have. Though, all of which is IMHO.
<!--quoteo(post=1617051:date=Mar 26 2007, 06:02 PM:name=Shoot_me)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Shoot_me @ Mar 26 2007, 06:02 PM) [snapback]1617051[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Concerning Entropy and well, yes the inevitable heat death: How is that increasing chaos? Once all the energy there is has been converted to heat, things to me would seem fairly uniform and orderly... at least to me. But maybe I'm trying to look at the big picture from the wrong perspective... <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A few sentences that might help you:
Heterogeneity: Low entropy, high order.
Homogeneity: High entropy, low order.
->Sal######er has a higher entropy value than non-salt water. ->White Light has a higher entropy value than defined Light -->When sending light through a prism, it looses enthalpy. ->Having green and yellow as separated colors has more order than both mixed together.
As for the heat death: Heat is the "lowest" form of energy, because you can convert every energy form into heat, but you cannot convert heat into every other energy form.
Example: You can burn wood and thus release the stored chemical energy as heat. But you cannot generate wood through heat.
Now it gets a little bit abstract (theoretical): Because heat is the lowest energy form and cannot convert into other forms, it means that there has to be an overall higher particle count, that is used to store this heat. And a higher particle count also means that there are more available configurations for the particles, meaning more entropy. Thus heat death will result in an increase in entropy.
Example: 1kcal energy can be stored in lets say: 1mol of molecules. To store the same amount of energy as heat, you would need an indefinitely higher amount of info-red rays. (And because of mass-particle equitation bla bla bla, too tiered to go on, will correct spelling mistakes later and maybe look up the actual vocabulary instead of translating on the fly <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />)
Edit: WTH??? It censores SAL######ER <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" /> Thats just plan stupid <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1616053:date=Mar 21 2007, 10:59 AM:name=Faskalia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Faskalia @ Mar 21 2007, 10:59 AM) [snapback]1616053[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Thank god, we do not base our law system on this!
Judge: I am sentencing you to death! Accused: But why, I am innocent. Judge: Why not.
--- Seriously: Just accepting things as they are without wanting to know whats behind all this is against human nature. Hell, the idea of God was solely developed for the purpose of explaining lightning, the tide, full-moon, eclipse etc. Its dumb and foolish. Just like answering: "Where does the electricity come from." with "From the outlet.". <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Einstein had a concept of God. That is to say he believed in an almighty deist entity. You think it was a method of explaining things he couldn't understand for him? The man based his profession around finding the scientific explanations and meanings for unexplainable things. There is a point for some where God is needed to explain where we came from, however, I'm not in support of that at all. Largely it just propagates ignorance. The nessesity for God IMO is much more strongly tied into the desire to believe we are actually going somewhere for a reason.
If the purpose of life is pleasure, then what's the point of contributing to sociaty and doing good things? Or devoting ones self to scientific progress? Many rational people want to believe in god because they want to believe in an optimistic ends to their means. Since no religious assumption is rationally sound to begin with, I think that form of belief is pretty much the only good reason for any belief.
<!--quoteo(post=1618060:date=Mar 31 2007, 06:05 PM:name=Epidemic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Epidemic @ Mar 31 2007, 06:05 PM) [snapback]1618060[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Quote or it didnt happen. I have only ever heard Einstein speak that he didnt know whether there was a god or not.
Anyway, I'll join the chorus saying that it's wrong to apply the question of purpose to the human life. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:yellow--><span style="color:yellow"><!--/coloro-->Your sense of humor isn't up for discussion at the moment. -Rob<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->Who said it was?<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
The meaning of life is an inward search. You cant google it or find it on wikipedia.
Comments
But WHY? For what possible or impossible reason? This is the question I've been wondering.
For what possible reason should we do ANYTHING?
WHY should we reproduce? So we our children could imagine new things and make new technological breakthroughs? But WHY? Why should we achieve new technologies?
Even if we DID live in the Matrix, why would the machines use our bodies to gain energy? For what reason? To multiply? Why would they multiply?
Why why why why? Why should we wonder about the meaning of life? Why should we bother with anything?
.... see my point?
<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
one answer: TO BE THE BIGGEST BADDEST LIFEFORM ON EARTH, AND ONE DAY MORE!
that is our goal as a species. "any creature that attacks a human being deserves to be torn limb from limb"
KainTSA, Does this mean you believe in determinism? That everything occurs according to what was setup at the beginning? Cause if that is the case, then there shouldn't be any question as to why anything is, besides "why was it a random number generator." That would basically solve all problems with the question because everything originated from a completely random number generator, and is progressing on a set track with no seperating paths.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I guess I do lean towards determinism. At least I think its the only way to get around the infinite "why"
questions. Instead of answering it I say that the question doesn't make sense. Maybe that's just cheating though <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1614267:date=Mar 14 2007, 12:43 PM:name=Crotalus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crotalus @ Mar 14 2007, 12:43 PM) [snapback]1614267[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
The 2nd law of thermodynamics states that higher ordered systems MUST progress to highly disordered systems. Life can be seen as a force that is fighting this push towards "chaos" because every single life form is becoming more complex than it's predecessor (atleast Earth life is). Except the fact that everytime something of higher order is made, more disorder is generate.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah the thing to keep in mind about the trend to entropy is that it takes into account the SYSTEM AND SURROUNDINGS. In other words, order can be created in one place if it results in a decrease in order in other places. For us, our bodies order is maintained at the expense of heat, which is disorder. I think you have this concept spot on but I just want to make sure its clear for anyone else reading.
To me though, Entropy and determinism are not at odds at all. I believe what we call disorder only appears to be random. For example if you look at a room full of gas and saw all of the individual molecules zooming around every which way it would look very disordered. However if you followed one atom its movement would make sense based on the collisions and forces it feels.
Of course when you get down to the positions of electrons in an atom probability is all you can predict. Some would say it is completely random where an electron will be but I would say WE just can't tell where it would be. Regning theory is its chaos but I don't buy it. Incidentally, neither did Einstein. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> He was famous for his quote "God does not play dice with the universe"
<edit> So I guess to sum up, Determinism answers the "Why" question with a resounding "Because"
When it comes down to it the meaning of life is death, so what is the meaning of death? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Stop being absurd.
Just because life ends up as death does not mean that death is the meaning of life.
Stop trying to give meaning to a meaningless void.
I think the best way to answer "Why?" is to ask "Why not?"
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thank god, we do not base our law system on this!
Judge: I am sentencing you to death!
Accused: But why, I am innocent.
Judge: Why not.
---
Seriously: Just accepting things as they are without wanting to know whats behind all this is against human nature. Hell, the idea of God was solely developed for the purpose of explaining lightning, the tide, full-moon, eclipse etc.
Its dumb and foolish. Just like answering: "Where does the electricity come from." with "From the outlet.".
Thank god, we do not base our law system on this!
Judge: I am sentencing you to death!
Accused: But why, I am innocent.
Judge: Why not.
---
Seriously: Just accepting things as they are without wanting to know whats behind all this is against human nature. Hell, the idea of God was solely developed for the purpose of explaining lightning, the tide, full-moon, eclipse etc.
Its dumb and foolish. Just like answering: "Where does the electricity come from." with "From the outlet.".
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or maybe he just accepts that the meaning of life is too complicated for us to ever comprehend, so we might as well stop trying and just enjoy ourselves? Or maybe there isn't one?
Human nature? What "human nature"? Only reason you say there's a human nature is because you choose to follow what everyone else dictates humans are.
Humans are greedy, curious etc? ###### no. The moment you think "It's my nature to be greedy", you stop it (or at least can stop it).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Its dumb and foolish. Just like answering: "Where does the electricity come from." with "From the outlet.".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except we produce electricity - we can easily answer where that comes from because there's a set answer. Asking the meaning of life is pointless because, without a God, there can't be one. Thus, discussing such a subject constantly just leads you to a constant argument of bullish.
Douglas Adams said that too. And I agree with him. I never understood why I should justify my existence.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I guess I should elaborate a little, then. Of course I understand the question of "why are we here." And sometimes I've even lost sleep over it, and that's not just a figure of speech.
But that's all I've accomplished - losing sleep. As a matter of pride, many of us have a hard time accepting our limitations. But I've accepted one of mine - that I lack the intellect and insight to gain an understanding of the universe so complete as to explain our purpose (or lack thereof) for being here. A lot of people, consciously or not, have reached that conclusion. I'm willing to leave the definite answer to that question to others whose capabilities exceed mine. I have a hunch that the answer will eventually be found in the field of physics, but that's neither here nor there, and pure speculation.
But in order to get any sleep at all, I need to have an answer to that question, even just a preliminary one. And basically, I see two approaches: Accepting a pre-made answer, whether founded on faith or otherwise, or coming up with your own. It doesn't have to be the definite, true one - we've already established that THAT one is outside my reach - it just has to be one that works. In my case, I've decided that the answer, unceremoniously, is "I'm here because I'm here." Does that make any sense? Maybe not to you, but that's not the point. The point is that it helps me sleep at night and it doesn't harm others.
I recognize the importance of not deceiving myself. I fully recognize that my answer to that difficult question is not definite. It's a placeholder. It fills out a void that feels unpleasant when there's nothing there.
So in short, my answer to the question "why" is a preliminary "why not." It's not deep or idealistic, but it works.
But that's just my own spin on the matter. I'm actually a kind of pessimistic guy, so I need to be optimistic in theology to balance my nerves.
Or maybe he just accepts that the meaning of life is too complicated for us to ever comprehend, so we might as well stop trying and just enjoy ourselves? Or maybe there isn't one?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that is exactly how humans are different from every other animal... theres like an urge in our nature to, as a species, strive for greater echelons of consciousness. you cant tell the entire human race to just lay back and enjoy themselves, get high, have sex, whatever floats your boat. there'll always be people like aristotle or tsielkovsky or einstein.
<!--quoteo(post=1616065:date=Mar 21 2007, 12:40 PM:name=Jimmeh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jimmeh @ Mar 21 2007, 12:40 PM) [snapback]1616065[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
Except we produce electricity - we can easily answer where that comes from because there's a set answer. Asking the meaning of life is pointless because, without a God, there can't be one. Thus, discussing such a subject constantly just leads you to a constant argument of bullish.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"we produce life - we can easily answer its meaning". this could well be a quote from some starfaring alien race with access to every piece of knowledge in the universe. but heres the point: simply because you dont know the answer to a question, doesnt mean that either a) there isnt one, or b) the answer is "god". open up a history book and see for yourself that its been tried before with little success.
You misunderstand me. My point was that if there is no way to determine an answer to the meaning of life (which, without a God, there can't be a meaning due to nothing to create a meaning) it's pointless discussing it over and over and over and over and over etc. I mean, hey, it's fun to discuss when you're drunk every now and then, but otherwise what's the point since it'll be a completely absurd discussion?
Life is meant to be lived, not to be pondered about.
Therefore the meaning of life is to ensure that your life has meaning.
[edit] And how can you say there can be no meaning of something without a God? I create plenty of meaning for the things I do/experience and that I see others doing/experiencing right here in my own mind. Does that mean God is in all of our brains creating meaning for the things we do?[/edit]
Another possible answer can be found in heat death/entropy, which was mentioned already. It's the one thing that every process in the universe have in common, whether it's life, fusion reactions in stars or volcanoes on mars: To increase overall entropy. Life does that in a very efficient manner, so it can be interpreted as some kind of meaning.
But although I know that, I often enough feel like lolfighter (lack of sleep). I sometimes feel even guilty because I accepted those simple answers for some time. Universe is just so ridiculously complex that these answers seem like a joke. That's the one thing I envy the many religious people on this planet - they've found peace of mind by accepting an answer, be it right or wrong.
Concerning Entropy and well, yes the inevitable heat death: How is that increasing chaos? Once all the energy there is has been converted to heat, things to me would seem fairly uniform and orderly... at least to me. But maybe I'm trying to look at the big picture from the wrong perspective...
It's been about 5+ years since my last college physics class, and I'm a little rusty on the topic, so please don’t let my apparent forgetfulness offend you.
Now, for better or worse in this topic:
I AM a Christian. And I'm not going to try and hide that fact.
...but, I'm not going to just try to discredit anyone else's belief of / view on life because they are not the same as my own (I don’t fit into that stereotype at least). Though, I do usually take anything being touted as even coming close the "meaning of life" with skepticism. But that is because a lot of people out there seem have trouble thinking even on a 3-Dimensional level, much less 4 and beyond. Something that I've been hearing in my physics classes as far back as high school. That's not to say we are incapable of finding the right answer, it's just that it doesn't seem probable that we'll just come up with the right answer to the right question with the information that we currently have. Though, all of which is IMHO.
Concerning Entropy and well, yes the inevitable heat death: How is that increasing chaos? Once all the energy there is has been converted to heat, things to me would seem fairly uniform and orderly... at least to me. But maybe I'm trying to look at the big picture from the wrong perspective...
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A few sentences that might help you:
Heterogeneity: Low entropy, high order.
Homogeneity: High entropy, low order.
->Sal######er has a higher entropy value than non-salt water.
->White Light has a higher entropy value than defined Light
-->When sending light through a prism, it looses enthalpy.
->Having green and yellow as separated colors has more order than both mixed together.
As for the heat death: Heat is the "lowest" form of energy, because you can convert every energy form into heat, but you cannot convert heat into every other energy form.
Example: You can burn wood and thus release the stored chemical energy as heat. But you cannot generate wood through heat.
Now it gets a little bit abstract (theoretical): Because heat is the lowest energy form and cannot convert into other forms, it means that there has to be an overall higher particle count, that is used to store this heat. And a higher particle count also means that there are more available configurations for the particles, meaning more entropy. Thus heat death will result in an increase in entropy.
Example: 1kcal energy can be stored in lets say: 1mol of molecules. To store the same amount of energy as heat, you would need an indefinitely higher amount of info-red rays. (And because of mass-particle equitation bla bla bla, too tiered to go on, will correct spelling mistakes later and maybe look up the actual vocabulary instead of translating on the fly <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />)
Edit: WTH??? It censores SAL######ER <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" /> Thats just plan stupid <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
Thank god, we do not base our law system on this!
Judge: I am sentencing you to death!
Accused: But why, I am innocent.
Judge: Why not.
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Seriously: Just accepting things as they are without wanting to know whats behind all this is against human nature. Hell, the idea of God was solely developed for the purpose of explaining lightning, the tide, full-moon, eclipse etc.
Its dumb and foolish. Just like answering: "Where does the electricity come from." with "From the outlet.".
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Einstein had a concept of God. That is to say he believed in an almighty deist entity. You think it was a method of explaining things he couldn't understand for him? The man based his profession around finding the scientific explanations and meanings for unexplainable things. There is a point for some where God is needed to explain where we came from, however, I'm not in support of that at all. Largely it just propagates ignorance. The nessesity for God IMO is much more strongly tied into the desire to believe we are actually going somewhere for a reason.
If the purpose of life is pleasure, then what's the point of contributing to sociaty and doing good things? Or devoting ones self to scientific progress? Many rational people want to believe in god because they want to believe in an optimistic ends to their means. Since no religious assumption is rationally sound to begin with, I think that form of belief is pretty much the only good reason for any belief.
Anyway, I'll join the chorus saying that it's wrong to apply the question of purpose to the human life.
Quote or it didnt happen. I have only ever heard Einstein speak that he didnt know whether there was a god or not.
Anyway, I'll join the chorus saying that it's wrong to apply the question of purpose to the human life.
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<a href="http://www.spaceandmotion.com/albert-einstein-god-religion-theology.htm" target="_blank">http://www.spaceandmotion.com/albert-einst...on-theology.htm</a>
<a href="http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein" target="_blank">http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein</a>
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->Who said it was?<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
The meaning of life is an inward search. You cant google it or find it on wikipedia.