Hybrids might not be so green after all

GreyFlcnGreyFlcn Join Date: 2006-12-19 Member: 59134Members, Constellation
edited February 2007 in Off-Topic
I knew I was leaning in the direction of Clean Diesel cars simply because they were cheaper, and offered comprable mileage to hybrids.
Now reading this study makes me start to really wonder about hybrids.....

Atleast for California, they've lost their free access to carpool lanes last month.
And their federal government subsidy has essentially been removed due to changes in the 2005 energy act.

In general, some people like to be green because they are worried about high prices, peak oil, and reliance on foreign nations we don't like.

Me I've been looking at it from the perspective of "The problem is climate change, not oil prices"
And yeah, disturbing stuff.

You got the Prius ranking higher than an H3 Hummer and equal to the Toyota Tundra....

If there's any truth to this study, all I have to say is "Feel Good Environmentalism" can be really stupid sometimes <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />


_

"A new study shows that over the lifetime of a vehicle—from the moment it is conceptualized at a design studio until it ends up in the scrap heap—hybrids actually consume a lot more energy than even big SUVs. One reason is that hybrids contain more moving parts than conventional vehicles, which require more energy to manufacture and process. In addition to an internal combustion engine, for instance, hybrids also have an electric motor and a sizable battery pack. That adds to disposal costs, too, once the car has run its last mile"
<a href="http://www.usnews.com/usnews/biztech/articles/060331/31hybrids.htm" target="_blank">http://www.usnews.com/usnews/biztech/artic...1/31hybrids.htm</a>


<b>Most energy efficient Cost per mile (2005 numbers)</b>
$0.48 Scion xB
$0.57 Ford Escort
$0.60 Jeep Wrangler
$0.69 Chevrolet Tracker
$0.70 Toyota Echo
$0.71 Saturn Ion
$0.72 Hyundai Elantra
$0.73 Dodge Neon
$0.73 Toyota Corolla
$0.74 Scion xA

<b>Hybrid (2006 numbers)</b>
$2.865 Prius
$3.398 Civic Hybrid
$3.421 Accord Hybrid
$3.453 Insight
$3.540 Escape Hybrid
$3.597 Mariner Hybrid
$3.618 Camry Hybrid
$3.656 Highlander Hybrid
$4.421 GS450h
$4.546 RX400h

<b>Least energy efficient Cost per mile (2005 numbers)</b>
$4.45 Acura NSX
$4.53 Porsche Carrera GT
$4.73 Lexus LS 430
$4.96 Audi A8
$4.96 Audi A6
$5.60 Audi Allroad Quattro
$10.56 Bentley
$10.66 Rolls-Royce
$11.21 VW Phaeton
$11.58 Maybach

<a href="http://www.cnwmr.com/nss-folder/automotiveenergy" target="_blank">http://www.cnwmr.com/nss-folder/automotiveenergy</a>
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Comments

  • SwiftspearSwiftspear Custim tital Join Date: 2003-10-29 Member: 22097Members
    How do the pure electric models stack up on that chart I wonder...
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  • NeonSpyderNeonSpyder &quot;Das est NTLDR?&quot; Join Date: 2003-07-03 Member: 17913Members
    Reason #Awesome not to drive a car <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wow.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":0" border="0" alt="wow.gif" />
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  • RevlicRevlic Join Date: 2006-11-04 Member: 58367Members
    You know, if people were really interested in this stuff, they would go to a forum that discusses this topic.

    Sure it's off topic, but to keep repeating the same stupid subject over and over, it's a little immature and it get's really old.
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  • LofungLofung Join Date: 2004-08-21 Member: 30757Members
    electric cars seem to be green but when u consider how it is generated...LOL



    are u sick? i am bored of this topic because u (ab)use it so much..
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  • BlackMageBlackMage [citation needed] Join Date: 2003-06-18 Member: 17474Members, Constellation
    though hybrids may use more energy, their consumption is centralized. this means that pollution can be treated and alternate power sources can be used. there's a difference between a gallon of unleaded burned in downtown and a megawatt/hour put out by a wind farm.
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  • GreyFlcnGreyFlcn Join Date: 2006-12-19 Member: 59134Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1607593:date=Feb 18 2007, 05:13 PM:name=Black_Mage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Black_Mage @ Feb 18 2007, 05:13 PM) [snapback]1607593[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
    though <u>hybrids</u> may use more energy, their consumption is centralized. this means that pollution can be treated and alternate power sources can be used. there's a difference between a gallon of unleaded burned in downtown and a megawatt/hour put out by a wind farm.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    You mean plugins?

    If anything this article shows that while plugins might be good,
    plugin-hybrids would likely be too complex for their own good.
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  • ThansalThansal The New Scum Join Date: 2002-08-22 Member: 1215Members, Constellation
    What he is reffering to is that the extra energy used in production/disposal of hybrids. That energy does NOT come from the burning of gas (a horrible way to get energy) but instead can (does it? I dono) come from much better resources. So yes, some hybrids might use as much energy as an H2, but the type of energy is going to be VERY different.

    Also, they measure energy in $s, not exactly a good way to measure energy (and you know this Grey, you are the energy nut <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />).

    The study is also about a year old, and I havn't seen much come from it, aside from no one being able to really defend it. Oh and the article has a few errors. The most important to most people would be that you WILL save money on a Prius (I have only done the math on the prius as it is what my mum drives) vs a similar car (say a toyota camry or something). a few years ago it would have only been a few hundred $$, now it is up to a few thousand due to rising gas prices.

    I unfortunatly can't find anything rebutting the study, or any sort of follow ups on it, all I can find are the original articles stating that the studdy exists.
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  • XythXyth Avatar Join Date: 2003-11-04 Member: 22312Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1607587:date=Feb 18 2007, 04:56 AM:name=Revlic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Revlic @ Feb 18 2007, 04:56 AM) [snapback]1607587[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
    You know, if people were really interested in this stuff, they would go to a forum that discusses this topic.

    Sure it's off topic, but to keep repeating the same stupid subject over and over, it's a little immature and it get's really old.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Im going to agree with this.

    You could also just go to the discussions section, seems more suited for this. Hell, just keeping it all in one thread would be good enough for me, but you have like 5 topics STILL on the first page here on this topic.
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  • ThansalThansal The New Scum Join Date: 2002-08-22 Member: 1215Members, Constellation
    pffft, it is O/T. He likes posting this stuff, who cares? It has a topic, and it isn't spam.

    just don't read his threads (and don't bump them either)

    I don't read 1/2 the stuff in O/T (and I generaly don't read Grey's stuff either, but I am interested in hybrids)
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  • XythXyth Avatar Join Date: 2003-11-04 Member: 22312Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1607628:date=Feb 18 2007, 02:36 PM:name=Thansal)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Thansal @ Feb 18 2007, 02:36 PM) [snapback]1607628[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
    pffft, it is O/T. He likes posting this stuff, who cares? It has a topic, and it isn't spam.

    just don't read his threads (and don't bump them either)

    I don't read 1/2 the stuff in O/T (and I generaly don't read Grey's stuff either, but I am interested in hybrids)
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    But then I wouldn't have something to complain about! <i>I would be an empty shell of my former self.</i>
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  • ThansalThansal The New Scum Join Date: 2002-08-22 Member: 1215Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1607630:date=Feb 18 2007, 02:39 PM:name=Xyth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Xyth @ Feb 18 2007, 02:39 PM) [snapback]1607630[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
    But then I wouldn't have something to complain about! <i>I would be an empty shell of my former self.</i>
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    oh, good point

    Cary on.

    (playing with auto merg)
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  • BlackMageBlackMage [citation needed] Join Date: 2003-06-18 Member: 17474Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1607599:date=Feb 18 2007, 11:50 AM:name=GreyFlcn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(GreyFlcn @ Feb 18 2007, 11:50 AM) [snapback]1607599[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
    You mean plugins?

    If anything this article shows that while plugins might be good,
    plugin-hybrids would likely be too complex for their own good.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    the less gas you burn in transit, the more energy you need to get from the grid. therefore, i meant what i said and i said what i meant, thank you very much.
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  • GreyFlcnGreyFlcn Join Date: 2006-12-19 Member: 59134Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1607621:date=Feb 18 2007, 07:11 PM:name=Thansal)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Thansal @ Feb 18 2007, 07:11 PM) [snapback]1607621[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
    I unfortunatly can't find anything rebutting the study, or any sort of follow ups on it, all I can find are the original articles stating that the studdy exists.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    <a href="http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2007/2/12/115426/732" target="_blank">http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2007/2/12/115426/732</a>

    I did.

    But I guess what you can take from the study.
    Small scale production of complex vehicles raising the energy demands per vehicle unit.

    _

    Looks like it's been debunked/ignored ;D

    But I'm still not convinced yet that Hybrids trump Clean Diesels
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