The Failures of Combat (and how to fix it!)
Bosnian_Cowboy
Join Date: 2003-06-07 Member: 17088Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2003-06-07 Member: 17088Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">Finding compromise between classic and combat lovers</div>This is a much debated subject. Some people hate it, some love it. But I think there's a compromise to be made between both sides that would benefit the sequel immensely. First, what is wrong with combat?
Well, the purpose of combat is to ease players into the game with a less demanding structure. But the problem with the current combat is so different from the classic game that it doesn't ease players into NS, it just gets them accustomed to a completely different style of play. Maybe that's a good thing. But I think it's possible for combat to be a slim version that gets players used to the classic game and still be a viable alternate game mode. Here are some of my ideas on how to achieve that:
- Combat and classic should share maps. It's a good way to create a experience synergy between the modes for players.
- Resource nodes should remain in combat. I'm thinking of a resource capture model of Dawn of War/Company of Heroes. No structures need to be built but you need to hold e or something on the point to capture/recapture it. And it's resource accumulation that replaces the kill-for-rez system which could remain but is very misleading to new players if it's the only system.
- Shared technology between teammates. I think the rank system is a good way of creating addiction for the current game round but I'm not sure if the mode benefits from it. A better system is teams acquiring technology (like through a vote system) and then individual players being able to spend their personal resources on weapons/items.
These methods bring combat a lot closer to classic but the distinction would remain because:
- No structures in combat.
- No commander in combat.
Combat would remain the faster and simpler version but would create a greater familiarity with the classic mode for new players. Of course this is all assuming classic remains similar in NS2. But assumptions is all we have and it doesn't hurt to share ideas.
Well, the purpose of combat is to ease players into the game with a less demanding structure. But the problem with the current combat is so different from the classic game that it doesn't ease players into NS, it just gets them accustomed to a completely different style of play. Maybe that's a good thing. But I think it's possible for combat to be a slim version that gets players used to the classic game and still be a viable alternate game mode. Here are some of my ideas on how to achieve that:
- Combat and classic should share maps. It's a good way to create a experience synergy between the modes for players.
- Resource nodes should remain in combat. I'm thinking of a resource capture model of Dawn of War/Company of Heroes. No structures need to be built but you need to hold e or something on the point to capture/recapture it. And it's resource accumulation that replaces the kill-for-rez system which could remain but is very misleading to new players if it's the only system.
- Shared technology between teammates. I think the rank system is a good way of creating addiction for the current game round but I'm not sure if the mode benefits from it. A better system is teams acquiring technology (like through a vote system) and then individual players being able to spend their personal resources on weapons/items.
These methods bring combat a lot closer to classic but the distinction would remain because:
- No structures in combat.
- No commander in combat.
Combat would remain the faster and simpler version but would create a greater familiarity with the classic mode for new players. Of course this is all assuming classic remains similar in NS2. But assumptions is all we have and it doesn't hurt to share ideas.
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
Personally, I'd rather only see vanilla classic ever be on a server in NS2, no "ifs" or "buts".
i dont want the lines blurred between combat and classic, there could be a possibility of a foul taint of combat crossing over the line into to classic.
if anything, build a big freaking wall between the two.
Yeah, maybe. But it could bring them into the NS game. For example, a CSPlayer wants to destroy everything moving, without thinking... He has heard about a game, called Natural Selection, which is a realtime-strategy game, he wouldn't like playing it ! But there is a MOD of this game called Combat, which looks like CS, he would like playing it ! Then he discovers the NS World and finally try the "normal" MOD.
<!--quoteo(post=1610033:date=Feb 28 2007, 08:24 PM:name=Bosnian_Cowboy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bosnian_Cowboy @ Feb 28 2007, 08:24 PM) [snapback]1610033[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Combat and classic should share maps. It's a good way to create a experience synergy between the modes for players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then I don't think it's Combat. The maps are not the same. ns_maps are much bigger than co_maps.
<!--quoteo(post=1610033:date=Feb 28 2007, 08:24 PM:name=Bosnian_Cowboy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bosnian_Cowboy @ Feb 28 2007, 08:24 PM) [snapback]1610033[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Resource nodes should remain in combat [...] No structures need to be built but you need to hold e or something on the point to capture/recapture it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Day of Defeat ? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" /> But seriously it could be a great idea.
- Resource nodes should remain in combat. I'm thinking of a resource capture model of Dawn of War/Company of Heroes. No structures need to be built but you need to hold e or something on the point to capture/recapture it. And it's resource accumulation that replaces the kill-for-rez system which could remain but is very misleading to new players if it's the only system.
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this sounds like a mod called Combat:territory thats already been done, i've never played it though. check out this link for more info...
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?s=1025873237620459776&showtopic=99960&view=findpost&p=1597955" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index....t&p=1597955</a>
because the people that only enjoy the dumbened down combat arent the people that will keep NS alive, they are actually the ones that destroy what lies at the core of ns, the rts/fps-ness of it. by changing the basics of combat so it is a little closer to classic ns you are making a mode that is more enjoyable to those who love classic, still enjoyable to those who do not, and also introducing those who dont understand how classic works to a more intuitive gameplay that is closer to classic. this in turn would bring more people to the classic mode, which would keep the mod alive and more enjoyable for longer.
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Ironically, those people that enjoy dumbed down combat ARE the ones that are keeping NS alive right now. Their playing combat isn't hurting NS, because if there was no combat they just wouldn't play anything related to NS. The best thing to do is to heep classic and combat, make a hybrid called "clambat" or "classicombat" or a more ingenious name. Then you would be appealing to a wider range of players who would enjoy something oldschool like classic, something arcade-ey like combat, and also those that like a bit of both.
Yeah, maybe. But it could bring them into the NS game. For example, a CSPlayer wants to destroy everything moving, without thinking... He has heard about a game, called Natural Selection, which is a realtime-strategy game, he wouldn't like playing it ! But there is a MOD of this game called Combat, which looks like CS, he would like playing it ! Then he discovers the NS World and finally try the "normal" MOD.
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It doesn't work like that. All too often have I been in a server where NS and CO maps were rotated, and every single time, no exceptions, whenever a classic map was loaded after a round of mindnumbing combat, every single person would go either "OMG classic sux, change map" or they would just quit the server.
CS players will never play classic. They don't care about strategy, all they want is to frag without objectives and ###### around their K/D ratios and stats. That's why I believe NS2 should stear as far away as possible from that crowd, because eventually, either that community will destroy your mod with gamebreaking addons (lol extra levels), their massive numbers attract (more) cheaters and hackers, and you will end up making compromise after compromise to please the crowd, stearing your mod further and further away from the game you once envisioned it to be.
If Unknown Worlds insists on adding a combat mode, all I can say is for the love of christ, make it a seperate mod, so the brainless filth doesn't infest and plague the game the way they did with NS.
This is a much debated subject...
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I have to say I agree 100% with all your suggestions. It sounds like it would be a great alternative to the current combat, but still maintain the action.
But I think it's possible for combat to be a slim version that gets players used to the classic game and still be a viable alternate game mode. Here are some of my ideas on how to achieve that:
...
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i think a better combat mode would be where you play on the NS maps (as you said) except the game is mainly learning to work as a team to hold res nodes. the level up system would still be in effect, there wouldnt be commanders or buildings (except res nodes, which would be autobuilt upon destroying an enemy node/stepping on empty node) and the res/time would be balanced out, and first team to accumulate ### res would win. it would encourage teamplay and keep simplicity <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
-Sheepe
Hence why i only go on g4b2s. No combat bs.
However, in the large majority only the people who like classic or both ever come to the forums and contribute to the community with new content and other other community involvement.
In my mind there are three types of Natural-Selection RTS/FPS hybrid (my favorite), Combat, and Seige.
I really want to know one thing... why?
Personally I think combat was a bad idea from the start and one that massivly fractured the NS player base.
because the people that only enjoy the dumbened down combat arent the people that will keep NS alive, they are actually the ones that destroy what lies at the core of ns, the rts/fps-ness of it. by changing the basics of combat so it is a little closer to classic ns you are making a mode that is more enjoyable to those who love classic, still enjoyable to those who do not, and also introducing those who dont understand how classic works to a more intuitive gameplay that is closer to classic. this in turn would bring more people to the classic mode, which would keep the mod alive and more enjoyable for longer.
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agreed
This killed our whole community, in Brazil. The servers are outdated with 3.1 and empty.
Ironically, those people that enjoy dumbed down combat ARE the ones that are keeping NS alive right now. Their playing combat isn't hurting NS, because if there was no combat they just wouldn't play anything related to NS. The best thing to do is to heep classic and combat, make a hybrid called "clambat" or "classicombat" or a more ingenious name. Then you would be appealing to a wider range of players who would enjoy something oldschool like classic, something arcade-ey like combat, and also those that like a bit of both.
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Agrees 100%.
I love NS when we have 8 or more players on each side, and I also love combat when we have under 15 people playing.
If people are only playing combat, it is an indicator that classic NS is failing to deliver. Instead of removing combat entirely so people are "forced" to play NS (and like Sarisel said, they will end up not playing anything at all), NS should be beefed up to be made more interesting.
Also, CO is a good training ground. When +movement was added I used CO pretty much exclusively to retrain my brain about blinking and leaping.
agreed
This killed our whole community, in Brazil. The servers are outdated with 3.1 and empty.
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Wrong. The community died for a lot of reasons. First and most important, nearly every player who enjoyed Combat also enjoyed regular NS, but a lot of veterans hated CO with a passion, so they would always quit the servers whenever a CO map was about to load, then complain and moan about how it destroyed NS on the boards without ever realizing they were the ones killing it.
Second, we have a few notorius cheaters who are never banned because they are friends with a few admins. This caused a lot of legit players to quit.
And lastly, we only had one server install new maps, and the official ones got boring after the first 2 months.
It doesn't work like that. All too often have I been in a server where NS and CO maps were rotated, and every single time, no exceptions, whenever a classic map was loaded after a round of mindnumbing combat, every single person would go either "OMG classic sux, change map" or they would just quit the server.
CS players will never play classic. They don't care about strategy, all they want is to frag without objectives and ###### around their K/D ratios and stats. That's why I believe NS2 should stear as far away as possible from that crowd, because eventually, either that community will destroy your mod with gamebreaking addons (lol extra levels), their massive numbers attract (more) cheaters and hackers, and you will end up making compromise after compromise to please the crowd, stearing your mod further and further away from the game you once envisioned it to be.
If Unknown Worlds insists on adding a combat mode, all I can say is for the love of christ, make it a seperate mod, so the brainless filth doesn't infest and plague the game the way they did with NS.
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That's so wrong, unless you're talking about some other game than Counter-Strike. CS is all about what's in your head, much more so than NS - especially at this stage where people just don't care to evolve tactics and strategy any longer. If I want to go around fragging stuff, I play NS classic, if I want to challange myself to improve the way me and my team plays and think about a game I play CS. NS is all about running around shooting; try running in everywhere shooting in CS and you'll spend a minute and a half waiting for the next round to start.