<!--quoteo(post=1613416:date=Mar 10 2007, 09:17 PM:name=commofdoom)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(commofdoom @ Mar 10 2007, 09:17 PM) [snapback]1613416[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> this thread has as much meaning as NS has direction. anyway, my point will be stronger in a few weeks when we've lost more players. so until then. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ns has been losing players forever, so you still won't have a point then
<!--quoteo(post=1613164:date=Mar 9 2007, 09:21 PM:name=DuoGodOfDeath)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DuoGodOfDeath @ Mar 9 2007, 09:21 PM) [snapback]1613164[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Well since you decided to quote me I had to go in game and do everything. With every structure I named plus adding weapons 2 and armor 2 it came to like 270. I didn't add PG or MT to that so it would be higher. Then you have to think about meds/ammo/ and dropping RTs. So basically its a default 270/75 trade off. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except for little details like -- shared res pool and permanent upgrades for the marines. And ignoring things like hives, temp gorge res costs, etc etc. The comparisons aren't that simple.
<!--quoteo(post=1613416:date=Mar 11 2007, 02:17 AM:name=commofdoom)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(commofdoom @ Mar 11 2007, 02:17 AM) [snapback]1613416[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> this thread has as much meaning as NS has direction. anyway, my point will be stronger in a few weeks when we've lost more players. so until then. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe you should stop playing on G4B2S, where pretty much nobody knows how to play aliens.
Unbalanced on custom maps. Especialy Siege maps. And dont tell me to play normal.. maps i played them whote time now Siege maps.. are the only one holding me at ns... and i am getting bored since 3.2
CheeseLork on the ClorfJoin Date: 2003-12-15Member: 24396Members, Constellation
Ok im back with some statisitc (well not really much <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> ) In the last Weeks we had about 20 valuable games (means teams were even from the start till the end of the game, including teamchanges when some players left)
So...20 Games. 8 of them Marine Wins. every round was at least 6vs6 (but i guess it was 8+vs8+ in all the rounds)
(since the system got deactivated in the first weeks to give the players the chance to get to know 3.2 there were a lot of situations where Teams were or got uneven disqualifying the round for a valuable one...)
We activated the System again one or two days ago...as soon as i have more stats i ll post in here again <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1613466:date=Mar 11 2007, 04:55 AM:name=s3xt3hSkyLight)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(s3xt3hSkyLight @ Mar 11 2007, 04:55 AM) [snapback]1613466[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Unbalanced on custom maps. Especialy Siege maps. And dont tell me to play normal.. maps i played them whote time now Siege maps.. are the only one holding me at ns... and i am getting bored since 3.2 <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Siege Maps are a completely non-standard map type that has no official support. I'm assuming that the DC change is the biggest problem for these types of maps, and so your best solution would be to have someone develop a serverside-plugin in Metamod or AMXX to fix the balance issue you've encounterd.
Sarisel.::' ( O ) ';:-. .-.:;' ( O ) '::.Join Date: 2003-07-30Member: 18557Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1613477:date=Mar 11 2007, 06:25 AM:name=Cheese)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Cheese @ Mar 11 2007, 06:25 AM) [snapback]1613477[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Ok im back with some statisitc (well not really much <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> ) In the last Weeks we had about 20 valuable games (means teams were even from the start till the end of the game, including teamchanges when some players left)
So...20 Games. 8 of them Marine Wins. every round was at least 6vs6 (but i guess it was 8+vs8+ in all the rounds)
(since the system got deactivated in the first weeks to give the players the chance to get to know 3.2 there were a lot of situations where Teams were or got uneven disqualifying the round for a valuable one...)
We activated the System again one or two days ago...as soon as i have more stats i ll post in here again <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" /> <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can't really look at statistics like that from public servers. You have to look at what hapened in the games. Who had the most skilled players on a team? Did you have stupid commanders in some of the games and if so how many? What chambers were used?
It's completely useless looking at a statistic like how many rounds are won by which team because you get no sense whatsoever of the quality of those rounds or about the balance of the game. All you get is that a soup of variables has played itself out to give roughly even ratios of wins for each team.
<!--quoteo(post=1613511:date=Mar 11 2007, 04:06 PM:name=JazzX)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(JazzX @ Mar 11 2007, 04:06 PM) [snapback]1613511[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Siege Maps are a completely non-standard map type that has no official support. I'm assuming that the DC change is the biggest problem for these types of maps, and so your best solution would be to have someone develop a serverside-plugin in Metamod or AMXX to fix the balance issue you've encounterd. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Does siege still exist in 3.2 ? It should be bad for aliens with the 3.2 DCs...
Anyway, just say YES to NS and CO only ! (especially NS... <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> )
<!--quoteo(post=1613529:date=Mar 11 2007, 05:24 PM:name=Sarisel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sarisel @ Mar 11 2007, 05:24 PM) [snapback]1613529[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> You can't really look at statistics like that from public servers. You have to look at what hapened in the games. Who had the most skilled players on a team? Did you have stupid commanders in some of the games and if so how many? What chambers were used?
It's completely useless looking at a statistic like how many rounds are won by which team because you get no sense whatsoever of the quality of those rounds or about the balance of the game. All you get is that a soup of variables has played itself out to give roughly even ratios of wins for each team. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sarisel. The people complaining about imbalance ARE the public servers.
And yes, obviously there are a lot of variables there, but he did mentioned '20 VALUABLE rounds'. I'd assume that means that crap rounds were tossed out.
Regardless, aliens won more than half in his sample. I think we all know that if he came out and said 'marines won 17/20', you wouldnt be screaming 'faulty sample, we need more data', but rather, 'proof positive that ns isnt balanced'. Amirite?
Sarisel.::' ( O ) ';:-. .-.:;' ( O ) '::.Join Date: 2003-07-30Member: 18557Members, Constellation
edited March 2007
No, actually I would be saying the exact same thing because I am hoping that the developers will notice that they shouldn't be using these kinds of stats as an indicator to game balance. Stats can be useful, but they need to be selected carefully.
At least as long as I've been involved we haven't really used statistics for making balance decisions. I think with large enough sample sizes you can see some interesting trends, but from my experience even that would be more indicative of that particular server or server community then balance as a whole.
As Sarisel said there are just way too many factors that go into this, and a simple percentages doesn't indicate team sizes, game length, map, or anything else that would heavily influence why the rounds went the way they did.
I remember when I used to play competively, my clan never won our marine round, but usually won aliens.
It was a lot of fun, then. But i'm not into NS as much as I was before. (damned World of Warcraft <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />)
im slowly starting to notice aliens winning more and more. on 16vs16 the adaptation is going very slow, due to size in players (i always gather 16 marines with 1 good point of command will win over 16 aliens with more independency in gameplay) but the 6 vs 6 server(s) i visit have about 40/60 alien/marine winrate. which isnt bad. there is also an issue about aliens being modified, that players will automatically stack marines. statwhoring anyone ?
but that problem has always been there.
as i see it, imbalance on big servers such as 16vs16 is still present.
Well... of course it is. Resources and structure hitpoints don't scale with player size (I think it'd be too big a task to do this, anyway), and there's little counter to getting a PG by a hive and doing a beacon+LMG rush with 15 marines. I don't do public servers more than 9v9, but I imagine 15 marines could LMG a hive using 1 clip each, or near enough.
Yep. Its 14 unupgraded LMG clips, instantly, to kill a hive. So more like 15 or 16.
While it is practically overpowered, there are some good counters. A single lerk will give the marine team a devastating amount of damage in that situation, and a single DC near the hive would be in its prime right there.
I dont see how people could find such a big game fun, but the aliens arent exactly short on options. The big thing with public is no one works together, be it marines or aliens, and thats the most aggrovating part of playing public for me.
I've been playing NS since the early days and I've always played on public servers.
I've been playing 3.2 and marines win 9/10 games. This is with pretty-much random team selection each time. The matches are usually over before anyone has even gone fade.
About NS not having as many players as it used to; it's not surprising. People have been complaining about the direction of NS since 1.04. Games back then were epic and had some perfect maps. CO has also destroyed the community and it's sad to see so many CO servers when looking at the list with an <150 ping.
They make NS for us to play and enjoy, yet when we've been complaining about the direction of NS for years now, they're surprised when nobody plays it anymore?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The matches are usually over before anyone has even gone fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Then 3.2 didn't cause that imbalance. Nothing of note was changed before 2nd hive from 3.1>3.2. That is unless you either think that the few seconds that marines get rts built faster (because of lower hp) or the fact that aliens can now teleport to an unbuilt hive without mcs and on ff 0 servers are causing the aliens to be weaker earlygame?
Have fun playing a game where a carapace fade can hit every single wall while he retreats, gets virtually aimbotted with a level 3 hmg and survives. Unless you can recommend a cologne that will attract the hottest of men with ease, Flayra will not listen.
<!--quoteo(post=1614119:date=Mar 14 2007, 12:12 AM:name=MrMakaveli)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MrMakaveli @ Mar 14 2007, 12:12 AM) [snapback]1614119[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Have fun playing a game where a carapace fade can hit every single wall while he retreats, gets virtually aimbotted with a level 3 hmg and survives. Unless you can recommend a cologne that will attract the hottest of men with ease, Flayra will not listen. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this game is close to ish now. the people developing it dont have a good enough understanding of things. they need to get soemone on their team that is a "big picture" kind of person and isnt biased to alies or marines.
this game has been going downhill for a while. the only people who support it are... well i've yet to figure out why people support the stuff they do with this game, but i can say the base that supports it is NOT that big. they are just loud mouthed and come to the forums a lot to make it seem like a lot of people like whats going on with the game. these people keep the game from getting the help it really needs.
imagine if all the people that quit ns actually knew about or visited the forums. there would hopefully be some change then.
You know, a lot of people leave games for... other games. Ever heard of WoW? That lost half the people i knew.
And its extremely conceited of you to assume that you're right in this debate. The developers don't assume they're right; if they did, NS would have never made it past the first version. They have a team of hundreds who playtest every version before we even heard about it. Oh, and... they MADE EVERYTHING of this game.
Yet they still dont assume they're right. But you do.
Who's on his high horse?
(this post isnt aimed directly at you banana... there are a lot of people who dislike 3.2. Just like any other version. Especially on the g4b2s server...)
WyzcrakPot Pie AficionadoJoin Date: 2002-12-04Member: 10447Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
The amount of concern for balance and... well... balance (I'm not talking 1=1 and 2=2... it's more complicated than I'd think at first) when the devs work to improve this game and your experience when you play is it crazy impressive. I see it as a PT. The behind-the-scenes considerations that go into design decisions are best described as "thorough".
Also, when you criticize the development of the game, you're commenting on the work of many people. There are very few people in this community who write your game's code, but those lines are created only after the thoughtfully and analytically considered contributions of many, many of your peers, most of whom are not "behind the scenes" at all.
Keep posting your thoughts. The talent (it's a skill, to be sure) that the devs continue to show for pulling out of the noise that is this forum the thoughts worth acting on continues to impress me.
<!--quoteo(post=1614077:date=Mar 13 2007, 07:36 PM:name=Stardog)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Stardog @ Mar 13 2007, 07:36 PM) [snapback]1614077[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I've been playing NS since the early days and I've always played on public servers.
I've been playing 3.2 and marines win 9/10 games. This is with pretty-much random team selection each time. The matches are usually over before anyone has even gone fade.
About NS not having as many players as it used to; it's not surprising. People have been complaining about the direction of NS since 1.04. Games back then were epic and had some perfect maps. CO has also destroyed the community and it's sad to see so many CO servers when looking at the list with an <150 ping.
They make NS for us to play and enjoy, yet when we've been complaining about the direction of NS for years now, they're surprised when nobody plays it anymore? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1614119:date=Mar 13 2007, 04:12 PM:name=MrMakaveli)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MrMakaveli @ Mar 13 2007, 04:12 PM) [snapback]1614119[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Have fun playing a game where a carapace fade can hit every single wall while he retreats, gets virtually aimbotted with a level 3 hmg and survives. Unless you can recommend a cologne that will attract the hottest of men with ease, Flayra will not listen. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I guess the "virtually aimbotted" part comes from you.
I think NS is a fun game. I just don't like it when you have a bunch of people with a large gap of skill levels.
Sarisel.::' ( O ) ';:-. .-.:;' ( O ) '::.Join Date: 2003-07-30Member: 18557Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1616701:date=Mar 24 2007, 09:45 PM:name=SmoodCroozn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SmoodCroozn @ Mar 24 2007, 09:45 PM) [snapback]1616701[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I guess the "virtually aimbotted" part comes from you.
I think NS is a fun game. I just don't like it when you have a bunch of people with a large gap of skill levels. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comments
this thread has as much meaning as NS has direction. anyway, my point will be stronger in a few weeks when we've lost more players. so until then.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ns has been losing players forever, so you still won't have a point then
Well since you decided to quote me I had to go in game and do everything. With every structure I named plus adding weapons 2 and armor 2 it came to like 270. I didn't add PG or MT to that so it would be higher. Then you have to think about meds/ammo/ and dropping RTs. So basically its a default 270/75 trade off.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except for little details like -- shared res pool and permanent upgrades for the marines. And ignoring things like hives, temp gorge res costs, etc etc. The comparisons aren't that simple.
this thread has as much meaning as NS has direction. anyway, my point will be stronger in a few weeks when we've lost more players. so until then.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe you should stop playing on G4B2S, where pretty much nobody knows how to play aliens.
It's pretty balanced everywhere else.
Unbalanced on custom maps. Especialy Siege maps. And dont tell me to play normal.. maps i played them whote time now Siege maps.. are the only one holding me at ns... and i am getting bored since 3.2
In the last Weeks we had about 20 valuable games (means teams were even from the start till the end of the game, including teamchanges when some players left)
So...20 Games. 8 of them Marine Wins.
every round was at least 6vs6 (but i guess it was 8+vs8+ in all the rounds)
(since the system got deactivated in the first weeks to give the players the chance to get to know 3.2 there were a lot of situations where Teams were or got uneven disqualifying the round for a valuable one...)
We activated the System again one or two days ago...as soon as i have more stats i ll post in here again <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
Ok im back with some statisitc (well not really much <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> )
In the last Weeks we had about 20 valuable games (means teams were even from the start till the end of the game, including teamchanges when some players left)
So...20 Games. 8 of them Marine Wins.
every round was at least 6vs6 (but i guess it was 8+vs8+ in all the rounds)
(since the system got deactivated in the first weeks to give the players the chance to get to know 3.2 there were a lot of situations where Teams were or got uneven disqualifying the round for a valuable one...)
We activated the System again one or two days ago...as soon as i have more stats i ll post in here again <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can't really look at statistics like that from public servers. You have to look at what hapened in the games. Who had the most skilled players on a team? Did you have stupid commanders in some of the games and if so how many? What chambers were used?
It's completely useless looking at a statistic like how many rounds are won by which team because you get no sense whatsoever of the quality of those rounds or about the balance of the game. All you get is that a soup of variables has played itself out to give roughly even ratios of wins for each team.
Siege Maps are a completely non-standard map type that has no official support. I'm assuming that the DC change is the biggest problem for these types of maps, and so your best solution would be to have someone develop a serverside-plugin in Metamod or AMXX to fix the balance issue you've encounterd.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Does siege still exist in 3.2 ? It should be bad for aliens with the 3.2 DCs...
Anyway, just say YES to NS and CO only ! (especially NS... <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> )
You can't really look at statistics like that from public servers. You have to look at what hapened in the games. Who had the most skilled players on a team? Did you have stupid commanders in some of the games and if so how many? What chambers were used?
It's completely useless looking at a statistic like how many rounds are won by which team because you get no sense whatsoever of the quality of those rounds or about the balance of the game. All you get is that a soup of variables has played itself out to give roughly even ratios of wins for each team.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sarisel. The people complaining about imbalance ARE the public servers.
And yes, obviously there are a lot of variables there, but he did mentioned '20 VALUABLE rounds'. I'd assume that means that crap rounds were tossed out.
Regardless, aliens won more than half in his sample. I think we all know that if he came out and said 'marines won 17/20', you wouldnt be screaming 'faulty sample, we need more data', but rather, 'proof positive that ns isnt balanced'. Amirite?
As Sarisel said there are just way too many factors that go into this, and a simple percentages doesn't indicate team sizes, game length, map, or anything else that would heavily influence why the rounds went the way they did.
It was a lot of fun, then. But i'm not into NS as much as I was before. (damned World of Warcraft <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />)
on 16vs16 the adaptation is going very slow, due to size in players (i always gather 16 marines with 1 good point of command will win over 16 aliens with more independency in gameplay)
but the 6 vs 6 server(s) i visit have about 40/60 alien/marine winrate. which isnt bad.
there is also an issue about aliens being modified, that players will automatically stack marines.
statwhoring anyone ?
but that problem has always been there.
as i see it, imbalance on big servers such as 16vs16 is still present.
While it is practically overpowered, there are some good counters. A single lerk will give the marine team a devastating amount of damage in that situation, and a single DC near the hive would be in its prime right there.
I've been playing 3.2 and marines win 9/10 games. This is with pretty-much random team selection each time. The matches are usually over before anyone has even gone fade.
About NS not having as many players as it used to; it's not surprising. People have been complaining about the direction of NS since 1.04. Games back then were epic and had some perfect maps. CO has also destroyed the community and it's sad to see so many CO servers when looking at the list with an <150 ping.
They make NS for us to play and enjoy, yet when we've been complaining about the direction of NS for years now, they're surprised when nobody plays it anymore?
Have fun playing a game where a carapace fade can hit every single wall while he retreats, gets virtually aimbotted with a level 3 hmg and survives. Unless you can recommend a cologne that will attract the hottest of men with ease, Flayra will not listen.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
just because you got owned last night
this game has been going downhill for a while. the only people who support it are... well i've yet to figure out why people support the stuff they do with this game, but i can say the base that supports it is NOT that big. they are just loud mouthed and come to the forums a lot to make it seem like a lot of people like whats going on with the game. these people keep the game from getting the help it really needs.
imagine if all the people that quit ns actually knew about or visited the forums. there would hopefully be some change then.
And its extremely conceited of you to assume that you're right in this debate. The developers don't assume they're right; if they did, NS would have never made it past the first version. They have a team of hundreds who playtest every version before we even heard about it. Oh, and... they MADE EVERYTHING of this game.
Yet they still dont assume they're right. But you do.
Who's on his high horse?
(this post isnt aimed directly at you banana... there are a lot of people who dislike 3.2. Just like any other version. Especially on the g4b2s server...)
Also, when you criticize the development of the game, you're commenting on the work of many people. There are very few people in this community who write your game's code, but those lines are created only after the thoughtfully and analytically considered contributions of many, many of your peers, most of whom are not "behind the scenes" at all.
Keep posting your thoughts. The talent (it's a skill, to be sure) that the devs continue to show for pulling out of the noise that is this forum the thoughts worth acting on continues to impress me.
I've been playing NS since the early days and I've always played on public servers.
I've been playing 3.2 and marines win 9/10 games. This is with pretty-much random team selection each time. The matches are usually over before anyone has even gone fade.
About NS not having as many players as it used to; it's not surprising. People have been complaining about the direction of NS since 1.04. Games back then were epic and had some perfect maps. CO has also destroyed the community and it's sad to see so many CO servers when looking at the list with an <150 ping.
They make NS for us to play and enjoy, yet when we've been complaining about the direction of NS for years now, they're surprised when nobody plays it anymore?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
HERE! HERE! Cheers to thee! I wub roo.
Have fun playing a game where a carapace fade can hit every single wall while he retreats, gets virtually aimbotted with a level 3 hmg and survives. Unless you can recommend a cologne that will attract the hottest of men with ease, Flayra will not listen.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I guess the "virtually aimbotted" part comes from you.
I think NS is a fun game. I just don't like it when you have a bunch of people with a large gap of skill levels.
I guess the "virtually aimbotted" part comes from you.
I think NS is a fun game. I just don't like it when you have a bunch of people with a large gap of skill levels.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem is that the community is too small.