TWG XI Postgame

EMP_Demon · March 2007

<div class="IPBDescription">Yet another human win :|</div>Okay, first things first.

<span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><u>1. Epilogue</u></span>

The last bit of the story is up. Sorry if it feels rushed, but I expected an extra day/night cycle to flesh it out a bit.

<span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><u>2. Awards</u></span>

<b>MVP</b>: Quite clearly <b>Aldaris</b> and <b>TheMuffinMan</b>. Despite dying night three, <b>Aldaris</b> managed to spot two wolves, and form a network between Thansal, microcosm, and TheMuffinMan. Yet, <b>TheMuffinMan</b> managed to lead the humans and kill off three of the wolves before being taken down himself. Excellent work, and I don't think anyone else really did any better.

If anyone has points they'd like to add, feel free to tell me. Otherwise, I have things to write.

<span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><u>3. Players</u></span>
<span style="color:#00FF00">Freak83 - Human (Survived)</span>
<span style="color:#0000FF">Eternaly_Lost - Vigilante, Lover (Lynched by association, Day One)</span>
<span style="color:#FF0000">im_lost - Werewolf (Lynched, Day Three)</span>
<span style="color:#00FF00">Xentor - Human (Survived)</span>
<span style="color:#FF0000">Chakuu - Werewolf (Killed by host, Day Five)</span>
<span style="color:#FF0000">Gwahir - Werewolf (Lynched, Day Five)</span>
<span style="color:#00FF00">Zor2 - Human (Wolfed, Night Four)</span>
<span style="color:#00FF00">TheMuffinMan - Human (Wolfed, Night Five)</span>
<span style="color:#0000FF">doomchica - Guardian (Survived)</span>
<span style="color:#00FF00">Mouse - Human (Survived)</span>
<span style="color:#00FF00">Isamil - Human (Wolfed, Night Two)</span>
<span style="color:#0000FF">Aldaris - Seer (Wolfed, Night Three)</span>
<span style="color:#00FF00">Thansal - Human (Lynched, Day Two)</span>
<span style="color:#00FF00">Harrower - Human (Survived)</span>
<span style="color:#00FF00">iggymatrixcounter - Human (Survived)</span>
<span style="color:#0000FF">microcosm - Psychic (Survived)</span>
<span style="color:#00FF00">wonedslackystyle - Human (Survived)</span>
<span style="color:#FF0000">Ana - Werewolf (Lynched, Day Four)</span>
<span style="color:#FF0000">lolfighter - Werewolf, Lover (Lynched, Day One)</span>

Night One:
Aldaris seers lolfighter

Day One:
lolfighter is lynched.
Eternaly_Lost dies too.

Night Two:
Aldaris seers im_lost.
doomchica guards microcosm (random).
Wolves kill Isamil.

Day Two:
Thansal lynched (50/50 chance of Thansal/im_lost).

Night Three:
Aldaris seers microcosm.
doomchica guards iggymatrixcounter.
Wolves kill Aldaris.

Day Three:
im_lost lynched.

Night Four:
doomchica guards Harrower.
Wolves kill Zor2.

Day Four:
Ana lynched.

Night Five:
doomchica guards wonedslackystyle (random).
Wolves kill TheMuffinMan.

Day Five:
Gwahir lynched.
Chakuu killed due to inactivity.

<span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><u>4. TWG XII Host Signups</u></span>

As due to Freak's new ruling, I am in charge of TWG XII's host elections. I already have another game idea that I'm working on, but anyone interested in hosting should send me their PMs at EMPDemon at Gmail dot com.

Preliminary deadline is <b>Sunday, Mar. 11th, 11:59 PM EST</b>. That gives you four days to think of something.

<span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><u>5. My thoughts</u></span>

<u>Night One</u>
Aldaris seered lolfighter. Wow, a first-night wolf seer, probably not too hard, but still pretty lucky.

<u>Day One</u>
Oh man, Aldaris managed to convince people to take out lolfighter? This'll be funny, seeing as how he's lovers with the vigilante. E_Lost tries to convince people against killing lolfighter, to no avail...

<u>Night Two</u>
doomchica never gives me a guardian PM, so I have to random it. im_lost decides to kill Isamil, suspecting he's the seer. Not much else to post...

<u>Day Two</u>
Wow, was this a close one? Unfortunately, the wolves pretty much all stack on Thansal, making them that much easier to spot. I go with one of lolfighter's ideas though, and only post up to the cliffhanger... then post the rest 15 minutes later.

<u>Night Three</u>
Wolves decide to take out Aldaris. Not bad. doomchica defends iggy, for no effect.

<u>Day Three</u>
This is the day that angers me the most. Thanks to microcosm aka psychicomg, at least three people vote for im_lost that may not have voted for him otherwise. The worst part is, not only do people not see that micro posted right away, but that he was incorrect in his deduction...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(psychicomg @ Mar 1 2007, 04:25 PM) [snapback]1610419[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
There are four wolves left and have been since day 1.

This means four humans have died and one wolf.

This means one of lolfighter or Eternaly_Lost was a wolf.

This means Isamil, Aldaris, and Thansal were not wolves.
</div>

There's no way to know Aldaris, who died on night three, is not a wolf until NIGHT FOUR's psychic report.

My instinct was to kill micro off, and in retrospect I should've done just that.

<u>Day Four</u>
Ana gets lynched due to her previous posts against Thansal/TMM's network. Kinda lame to lynch someone who's out of town, but she did rather give herself away, so bleh.

<u>Day Five</u>
Okay, another point of anger.

People bandwagon on Gwahir, urging him to defend himself. He says he wants people in IRC so he can defend himself publicly, and what happens?

<b><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%">NOBODY SHOWS UP.</span></b>

I'm going to quote a post of im_lost's from a year and a half ago here...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(im_lost @ Jun 5 2005, 09:40 AM) [snapback]1496727[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
I really need to emphasize something here.

<span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><span style="color:red">YOU MUST HAVE ACCESS TO IRC TO PLAY IN A TWG GAME!</span></span>

Enough stuff is said in IRC that it's a pain when players don't use it.
</div>

Why the HELL would you ask someone to defend himself then turn a deaf ear to his self-defense? I know he was a wolf, but come ON...

<strike>A jab at Freak83 here...</strike> Removed. Sorry, Freak <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />

Oh, and hate toward Chakuu for getting himself host-lynched from activity... when he was a wolf. Severe hate.

<span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><u>6. Extra</u></span>

Mini Factoid: The original villian's name was planned to be "Zentor". However, due to a possible mistaking for the player, <b>Xentor</b>, I reversed it to make "Rotnez", then replaced the z with an s to create "Rotnes". <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />

What would have happened if im_lost had been lynched day two?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>It was only then that he heard the groaning of metal under a large weight - and by then it was too late. The engineering section's ceiling split open, and water came pouring through, right over <b>im_lost</b>'s head. <b>Thansal</b> dove to try and push <b>im_lost</b> out of the path of falling water...

Unfortunately, such maneuvers are never as effective in real life as they are in the movies, and this was no exception. A massive power surge got sent through <b><span style="color:#FF0000">im_lost</span></b>'s body through the water, causing him to spark as the generator's feed got sent through him. However, the short circuit drove the full power of the generator into the main engine... </div>

Story's up, postgame thread's done... I guess it's time to relax until the host elections. =|

im_lost · March 2007

Suggested rule changes:

Anonymous contacts: you can only be in anonymous contact with one person at a time. You can't switch to another person unless that first person dies. This allows the anonymous stuff that everyone thought was fine from previous games, but prevents bulk anonymity that seemed to be bad this game.

Active observers: Useless, apparently. It's a lack of time or interest that causes issues, not a fear of death. On the same topic, I would recommend that no one try to host a game over 15 people anytime soon. If the signup thread starts filling up quickly, then that could be changed.

That's all for now, I'll probably have more later.

Eternaly_Lost · March 2007

Well, this makes my record of role deaths now 200%.

0.0

I guess I attract roles like a magnet.

EMP_Demon · March 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(im_lost @ Mar 7 2007, 07:33 PM) [snapback]1612380[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
Anonymous contacts: you can only be in anonymous contact with one person at a time. You can't switch to another person unless that first person dies. This allows the anonymous stuff that everyone thought was fine from previous games, but prevents bulk anonymity that seemed to be bad this game.
</div>

I'd like to propose my own idea: <i>Remove it entirely</i>.

It shouldn't be necessary, nor required.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>[18:12] iggyy: if you have info, you need to take the risk of giving it out</div>

That sums it up.

im_lost · March 2007

The werewolves had a forum at <a href="http://lostcalpolydude.kicks-######.org/twgxi/index.php" target="_blank">http://lostcalpolydude.kicks-######.org/twgxi/index.php</a> (where ###### = a.s.s (without the periods) due to the filter).

If I'm not playing in a game, I'll be happy to set up a forum for werewolves in that game, if the host or one of the werewolves requests it. I'll make sure no one can find it, and even if they do, they won't be able to see it (so don't waste your time looking for it if you aren't told about it existing already). I could also set one up for other groups of humans that want one, but it couldn't be already set up for the seer, because that would confirm that they are the seer; by extension, any game where the werewolves need to convince other players that they actually are werewolves wouldn't get to use a forum. Also, keep in mind that I make no guarantees of the forum being stable, it's just on a computer at my place (though it worked great during this game).

EMP_Demon · March 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(im_lost @ Mar 7 2007, 07:47 PM) [snapback]1612386[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>(though it worked great during this game).
</div>

Minus the fact that you and Gwahir were pretty much the only ones using it?

im_lost · March 2007

That was a problem with the werewolves, not the forum.

Gwahir · March 2007

really frustrated that people didn't come to my defense, I feel I could have made it out of that situation.

in any, case I probably wouldn't have the time to win out as a sole wolf.

im_lost · March 2007

Another sad thing about this game

Player Number of posts
EMP_Demon 32
iggymatrixcounter 21
FreakEightyThree 21
im_lost 15
Gwahir 14
Thansal 14
Xentor 14
TheMuffinMan 14

I died at the end of day 3, I felt like I wasn't putting enough time into the game, and I'm still that high on the list? Thansal died at the end of day 2 and was right behind me. That shouldn't be the case.

Xentor · March 2007

Ok, well, my big conspiracy theory managed to get the seer-mouthpiece nuked, but I made up for it by not letting Gwahir sway me at the end.

Gwahir, I really was in the middle of something, and was glancing at IRC every 15-20 mins, if that... But no normal human would have been trying that hard to survive. A role, sure, but a role would have probably come out to me in PM rather than just pointing out that he voted for a scanned teammate.

Anyway, on to other things...

I'm not sure where I stand on anonymous contact. On the one hand, outlawing it would give the wolves a serious advantage (Non-seer special roles tend to rely on it, since they can never be sure of anyone). On the other hand, leaving it in can occasionally be far too powerful, and can be frustrating for the host it seems.

I propose that if we decide not to outlaw it, make it a requirement that anyone using an anonymous account must FIRST PM the game host from their usual account to inform them of it (i.e. "I'll be contacting people anonymously as "psychicomg"). That way, we can at least be sure that only players are playing (Anyone can PM the host to verify that the anonymous account is, in fact, one of the players), and if anyone decides to cheat by posting anonymously post-mortem, the host can catch wind on it and act accordingly.

EMP_Demon · March 2007

On an unrelated note, I hate the underscore in my name.

I prefer either EMPDemon or EMP Demon. >:|

im_lost · March 2007

This is the first time forum posts were used for anonymity though. Sky and SaltzBad have used email before, and I have used AIM (maybe MSN, can't really remember); someone else used IRC and failed at one point (they didn't mask their host at all). I suppose the system could work the same. I don't see a problem with anonymous conversations, I think the problem is in contacting everyone with anonymous information.

Then again, with all of the human wins, maybe this would be a good way to balance things.

Byeka · March 2007

I'm up for outlawing private contact altogether.

Also, at what EMPDemon said and just my general behaviour in the last phase of the game. I've been under a ton of stress lately for very personal reasons (only slacky knows what) and the whole ordeal with psychicomg and the general inactivity was the straw that broke the camels back.

If I had my head screwed on nice and evenly I probably wouldn't have made those last few posts the way I did and put more effort into them, but due to extrodinary events I just stopped caring at the end.

Gwahir, I'm sorry I missed your IRC session but I was not home all day today (related to the personal reasons).

wonedslackystyle · March 2007

Yo Demon, u owe an apology to freak, theres no need to be a jerk. He already said he was having a stressful time, no need for you to go off on him.... Plus why would we come out when we know gwahir is a wolf. Plus this game was already ruined with that physic thing, glad its over...

Anyways only question i have is why mouse came out to me he was physic.

Theslan · March 2007

Some thoughts on this game:

Agreed, active observers are useless. For me, it just means I had no time to keep looking into the game due to my studies, so I ignored it altogether.

I don't believe in outlawing private communication altogether. This means that the wolves cannot contact each other, and no human network could be built up (seer cannot talk to others privately, etc). You would be changing how TWG is played here. However, this is how Mafia is played originally, with no private communications.

As a side note, here are some uses of anonymous contacts that I know of. The guardian contacted me anonymously in TWG VII? where there was the wizard role (Freak83 was guardian). I created an account TWG_DOCTOR to contact anonymously people when I was the specialist in im_lost's game of all roles.

What the rule should be changed to is that there is no anonymous accounts posted on the forums. What microcosm should have done there is exactly what he thought was annoying: contacted everyone anonymously. Send a private PM to their accounts, contact them in IRC, something. At the forums, it should be clear and precise who's who.

lolfighter · March 2007

I'm not sure Freak meant private contact, I think he meant to say anonymous.
If you have information that you want distributed without making your identity public, you need to take the risk that at least someone will know who you are and use a mouthpiece. Otherwise, I hope the wolves next game do what I would do:
Register a <i>dozen</i> "seer" and "psychic" accounts and use them to spread so much disinformation that any real information would be impossible to filter out. Someone asks that the psychic contacts them via email? Prepare for eight hotmail accounts all messaging you conflicting reports. Et cetera. I think we all see where this is going. If the rules don't outlaw anonymous contacts, the wolves will just have to waste a lot of time on making anonymous contacts useless instead.

So I got to be a wolf. Considering how I often get seered first, I should've seen that for the instant death sentence it was. Oh well, at least I got to be inactive without being faulted for it that way. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />

This game brings the total tally to eleven victories for the humans, <b>zero</b> for the wolves. At this point I feel confident in saying that something is off. The wolves haven't won a single time so far. They've come close sometimes, but the humans have always made a comeback and proceeded to lynch all the wolves in short order. I realize that this wasn't exactly the best game ever for the wolves (one wolf inactive, one lynched right off the bat) and I don't mean to sound like sour grapes, but there's really something fishy about the continue absence of any wolf victories whatsoever.

im_lost · March 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(FreakEightyThree @ Mar 7 2007, 08:58 PM) [snapback]1612443[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>I'm up for outlawing private contact altogether.
</div>
Did you really mean private contact, or just anonymous contact (which was the only thing being discussed until you said that, as far as I know)? I've seen the rule on a forum before that only wolves and masons can discuss things privately, and only at night time, so it isn't a crazy idea, but it would completely change the games that we play here. It would also make IRC almost unnecessary, since I think the majority of game-related discussion there is through private conversations. (I typed this up before seeing lolfighter's post, but it seemed worth saying anyway.)

Anyway, I say no to anonymous conversation, yes to private conversation.

Mouse · March 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(wonedslackystyle @ Mar 8 2007, 05:02 PM) [snapback]1612472[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>Anyways only question i have is why mouse came out to me he was physic.
</div>
I've lost the logs for it, but I only recall telling you that there were 2 wolves left when you asked if any had been lynched. And I only knew that from the PMs from psychicomg.

Also, woo at me for surviving another game.

Xentor · March 2007

I don't think anyone meant to remove private contact entirely... That would be a completely different game. We're just talking about PMs from anonymous accounts, and the like.

Byeka · March 2007

I meant anonymous, not private sorry.

Zor2 · March 2007

<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" /> I have a feeling I was wolfed because the wolves thought I was the psychic. And I presume the wolves thought I was the psychic because the psychicomg seemed to be a bit of a noob, like me <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />

I am sorry I was not very active either. I had some in depth discussions with TMM during the lovers lynching controversy. I feel glad that I went with my instinct to believe that TMM was a human. I never contacted Thansal so I was still wary that Thansal was a wolf trying to lead us all on.

Some Qs I had:

Microcosm, why did you wait so long to communicate as the psychic?

Freak83, why did you go "Freak83 | Human", was it to produce some discussion or to provoke the seer to seer you?

Aldaris, how did you trust Thansal so quickly?

I almost forgot to say; Thank you very much EMPDemon for hosting. Story was great and thanks for bearing with the inactivity to the end.

Byeka · March 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Zor2 @ Mar 8 2007, 08:55 AM) [snapback]1612562[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
Freak83, why did you go "Freak83 | Human", was it to produce some discussion or to provoke the seer to seer you?
</div>

Discussion, and the fact that I just like being random.

Thansal · March 2007

OK, I have explained it once or twice on IRC, but I am going to type up what happened at the start of the game (As I understand it).

Day one a number of people jumped on Aldaris (this was partially random, and partially because of a ploy by E_Lost if I understand it).

TMM contacted Aldaris to see if he could defend himself. Aldaris, thinking he was gona die no matter what, took a big chance and told TMM he was the Seer and that lolf was a wolf (all true facts). TMM said that he would pass the info on claiming to be the seer himself (to protect aldaris).

At this point TMM contacted me and after a long talk he said he was the seer. I didn't really trust him, however it was a better vote then anything else I had seen (after all, we were likely to kill a human any way, the chance of lynching a wolf day 1 was worth it to me, also the psychic would be able to confirm this).

I contacted a few other people, as well as making <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?s=8682706263047187456&showtopic=100464&view=findpost&p=1608837" target="_blank">This Post</a>. I also knew that TMM was talking to Aldaris, but I jsut thought that TMM was talking to him as some one who had already voted for lolf.

So, that is why Aldaris trusted TMM (I never talked to Aldaris much, only a little bit), and why TMM trusted me (he could accept the sacrifice of coming to me if I was a wolf).

The reasons I trusted TMM were these:
1) Talking to him, he did a good job of convincing me.
2) a number of other people had reasons to suspect lolf (Aldaris and E_Lost both talked to me day 1)
3) Micro (the psychic) talked to me day 2, told me that he was the psychic, and that there were 4 wolves left.

That is 4 people I talked to that I had good feelings about. Of course this could have simply been the most awesome wolf plot ever, and they sacked lolf to create a false network and a figure head (me) to divert attention. However there were a few other people I figured were wolves more than any of the people I had talked to (ana being a key one due to a conversation day 1)

So that covers the strange trust shown early game by a number of players (Aldaris had to take a desperate action to save himself). Also, if you have read so far, the psychic DID contact people. I talked to him day 2, and I think other people talked to him before I did (He claimed to have made a number of contacts that new he was going to talk to me, just in case I was a wolf and ate him night 3).

Now on to discussing TWG in general.

Obviously something isn't right with our games, 11 human wins vs 0 wolf wins. The 3 obvious explanations are:
1) Lucky humans (a large part of the case this time I think), or very good humans (I think TWGX was an example of both)
2) Bad wolf players.
3) Something is inherently wrong.

This time around I attribute it mainly to luck. If one of the wolves had contacted Aldaris instead of TMM, he likely would have died day one (votes wouldn't have piled on lolf), or wolfed night 2, and we would have been screwed <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />

I know a lot of people think that micro's anon contact was what broke the game, I honestly do not think it was, I think it was rather wrapped up in the first few nights. we had 2 wolves dead, a 3rd that a large number of people suspected (Ana) and a 4th that ended up getting phantom lynched. That left Gwahir vs 8 humans (including 2 rolls). True, if gwahir had survived he would have wolfed micro, unless doom protected him (Assume all of micro's posts were made under his own name or they were sent out to every one via PM as he wanted to do). Still, that is 6 humans vs 1 wolf, so 3 more days for the humans to manage to lynch him (Assuming no guardian saves).

So, personally I think that micro honestly didn't do anything bad. The result would have likely stayed the same, and he didn't know it was against the rules (for that matter, neither did I, there was a lot of talk of anon contact, but nothing specifying that it was all PMs).

Personally I think that anon contact should either be completely allowed, or completely removed. I know many people are suggesting some sort of controlled anon contact, but I personally don't think that would work very well (you can only be in anon contact with one person at a time? why? and setting it up so it all passes through the host would be to time consuming if the host is not around when you need them)..

Personally I think I am for removing anon contact from the games. MY argument is that it gives humans to large of and advantage. However it is rather easy for the wolves to counter it by just making the signal to noise ratio minuscule. Thus making it something that the wolves HAVE to do, or they will lose.

I also want to comment on what I think is causing the humans to win.

I have only ever played Mafia/Are You A Werewolf in a single room seting before. If you say something, every one knows, the only people who can plot are the wolves (during the night time everyone puts their heads down to sleep, and the host awakens rolls one at a time).
So wolves have knowledge and time on their side.
Humans have numbers.

If a human roll wants to reveal them self they can, however they are a very likely target for being killed, and a false seer ploy works much better (no privately double checking for humans).

However with TWG online humans can talk to anyone they want, for as long as they want, and it can be done completely in private. This gives humans alot more time to work with, and much more information, thus countering both of the wolves advantages.

So some how e have to even the playing field, with out making the game no longer fun for anyone. What would remove the fun?

Removing human rolls turns it into a game of random chance.
Adding in more wolves might work, however I think that there is probably a tipping point, where wolves will just dominate due to numbers.
lowering the total number of players I think would work decently. It would cut down on the time the humans have to form networks, and limit the size of the networks. We also would see the rosters fill faster.
Lowering the time for day/night. This also keeps humans disoriented. The problem is of course that people will get shafted if you cut it down to 24hr days (timezones/beign out for a day/etc)
Creating a bit more controlled chaos would also be a good idea. I am personally in favor of adding in more abnormal rolls (wizard, psychopath, etc), to create a bit more controlled chaos.

One suggestion I have seen is for some way of converting humans to wolves mid game. Personally I think that would really mess up the game for the person converted. They have spent part of a game working on getting the humans to win, and suddenly they have to switch sides.

oh well, those are my thoughts on the game.

BTW, Iggy, if you are actually still around, I want to talk to you about your strategies (as they make no sense to me)

lolfighter · March 2007

Note to future wolves: People are far more trusting than you think. Make with the fake seer ploys. Also, plan to have a fake psychic back you up later, when the real psychic discovers that the "wolves" you're getting lynched off are actually humans.

im_lost · March 2007

Removing human rolls turns it into a game of random chance.
--There's still plenty of chance for discussion. Mafia/Werewolf Game doesn't require any special roles to be played, I'm pretty sure I remember stuff on www.princeton.edu/~mafia that had games with no roles.

Adding in more wolves might work, however I think that there is probably a tipping point, where wolves will just dominate due to numbers.
--I doubt this would help; usually the wolves die back-to-back, so it's almost just the time to the first wolf death that matters.

lowering the total number of players I think would work decently. It would cut down on the time the humans have to form networks, and limit the size of the networks. We also would see the rosters fill faster.
--Agreed, especially taking into account the previous comment

Lowering the time for day/night. This also keeps humans disoriented. The problem is of course that people will get shafted if you cut it down to 24hr days (timezones/beign out for a day/etc)
--Agreed (pros and cons of the idea, though I think cons outweigh pros)

Creating a bit more controlled chaos would also be a good idea. I am personally in favor of adding in more abnormal rolls (wizard, psychopath, etc), to create a bit more controlled chaos.
--I guess this doesn't include uncontrolled chaos, like in my game <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" /> ?
----Another potential idea (for a bit more chaos) is not making it known exactly which roles will be in the game when it starts. There could be a list of roles to pick from, and right before roles are given out random.org would be used to decide which ones are actually used. It's probably easier to be a fake seer when there might not be a real seer in the game. It could also mean that no one besides the psychic (if there is one) knows how many wolves the game starts out with.

EMP_Demon · March 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(wonedslackystyle @ Mar 8 2007, 01:02 AM) [snapback]1612472[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
Yo Demon, u owe an apology to freak, theres no need to be a jerk. He already said he was having a stressful time, no need for you to go off on him.... Plus why would we come out when we know gwahir is a wolf. Plus this game was already ruined with that physic thing, glad its over...
</div>

1. I don't recall Freak ever saying he was under stress, and in fact, he stated that only you knew what it was. However, I can understand that issue, and would like to apologize if my jab caused any offense.

2. Seer was dead night three, there was no way people could know 100% that Gwahir was a wolf.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>[20:06] Gwahir: but people following you blindly was not something I thought would happen like that
[20:06] micr0c0sm: now yeah i am surprised people voted for you</div>

Doesn't seem like micro really believed that people would follow him so readily too.

Thansal · March 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lolfighter @ Mar 8 2007, 10:32 AM) [snapback]1612598[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
Note to future wolves: People are far more trusting than you think. Make with the fake seer ploys. Also, plan to have a fake psychic back you up later, when the real psychic discovers that the "wolves" you're getting lynched off are actually humans.
</div>
QFGJ!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(im_lost @ Mar 8 2007, 10:39 AM) [snapback]1612605[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
Removing human rolls turns it into a game of random chance.
--There's still plenty of chance for discussion. Mafia/Werewolf Game doesn't require any special roles to be played, I'm pretty sure I remember stuff on www.princeton.edu/~mafia that had games with no roles.
</div>
Remember, they are playing table top. In table top it is all about the art of BS. However, THANK YOU for that link

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(im_lost @ Mar 8 2007, 10:39 AM) [snapback]1612605[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
Lowering the time for day/night. This also keeps humans disoriented. The problem is of course that people will get shafted if you cut it down to 24hr days (timezones/beign out for a day/etc)
--Agreed (pros and cons of the idea, though I think cons outweigh pros)</div>
yah. I tihnk it would be a great fix, however I think that it also would make the game not fun for a number of players (and fun is the firt priority)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(im_lost @ Mar 8 2007, 10:39 AM) [snapback]1612605[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
Creating a bit more controlled chaos would also be a good idea. I am personally in favor of adding in more abnormal rolls (wizard, psychopath, etc), to create a bit more controlled chaos.
--I guess this doesn't include uncontrolled chaos, like in my game <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" /> ?
----Another potential idea (for a bit more chaos) is not making it known exactly which roles will be in the game when it starts. There could be a list of roles to pick from, and right before roles are given out random.org would be used to decide which ones are actually used. It's probably easier to be a fake seer when there might not be a real seer in the game. It could also mean that no one besides the psychic (if there is one) knows how many wolves the game starts out with.
</div>

I love the idea of randomly picked roles! It would have to be tweaked around abit (make sure that there are not to many/to few wolves, make sure that there are nto to many/ to few roles etc)

Theslan · March 2007

I want to hear from the wolves' side of what they have done.

So far, I've just seen humans getting extremely lucky by the seer getting 2 good wolves at the start.

This is very similar to last game, where the wolves got shafted by the artifact killing their target (im_lost using it against Isamil) and then messed up by killing the guardian, making me switch sides. If the situation was reversed, the wolves would have won without me knowing better.

...

Secondly, I want to know if the wolves in any game have actually done any fake seer/fake psychic ploy before. There was a mild attempt with me last game, but I think that was desperation after the wolf died from the artifact.

Xentor · March 2007

Here's an idea to moderate anonymous contacts...

Every night, when the roles send their stuff in, anyone who wants to can send a short, anonymous note to one other person. That note will be received at daybreak, if both the sender and recipient are still alive. It's a little more work for the host, but it would all happen the same time he's sending PMs anyway.

That would also make it a one-way contact, as in there'd be no way to reply.

*an hour later*... Whoops, forgot to click the send button... Tabbed browsing for the win!

Aldaris · March 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Zor2 @ Mar 8 2007, 01:55 PM) [snapback]1612562[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
Aldaris, how did you trust Thansal so quickly?</div>
Because I never contacted him. Let me explain from the start.

If you look back to day 1, I was on the edge of being lynched. TMM came into IRC, and said this:

<lolfighter> Phew, someone has overtaken me in votes. ^_^;
<themuffinman|YNWA> has aldaris done anything?
<themuffinman|YNWA> to warrant the 3 votes, i mean

This was quickly followed by a PM from him. I took the logical step, and simply told him I was the seer. I was going to get lynched anyway. If he was a wolf, there was no change. I was dead either way. But if he was human, and I could convince him, that I gain an ally. I feel like I was lucky, but I did manage to convince him. We decided that to protect me, TMM would contact people as the seer, using the info I found. As to why TMM choose Thansal, you'll have to ask him <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />

im_lost · March 2007

Night 2, we killed Isamil because we thought he might be the seer, and there didn't seem to be anything too obvious about targeting him; it was generally accepted that lolfighter was a wolf, so confirming it didn't really do much harm. I didn't even try arguing that lolfighter wasn't a wolf when I was defending myself.

Day 2, all I could do was act human. From what I've heard, I did a decent job, but there weren't any other suspects day 3. I told Gwahir not to save me, and he said he wouldn't, but he and Chakuu saved me anyway.

Night 3, we killed Aldaris because we knew he was the seer. TMM would have been a decent target, but it would have confirmed the story against me, and there was the possibility of him being guarded.

It would have been quite difficult to pull off a fake seer in this game. lolfighter and I were checked by the real seer early on, and it was made public knowledge, so it would have fallen apart if either of us had tried it. Ana was too obviously a wolf, apparently (I wasn't actively watching the channel most of the time she was around, so I didn't see that), so she couldn't have done it. Chakuu was too inactive. Gwahir could have tried it, but he wouldn't have had any support. I guess I could have tried it, but I don't know that I was around enough to really pull it off, especially with the open accusation against me.

TWG XI Postgame

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