A Discussion on marine upgrade paths
SpaceJesus
Join Date: 2004-07-02 Member: 29683Banned
Join Date: 2004-07-02 Member: 29683Banned
<div class="IPBDescription">we need more than 1 tbh</div>There's a variety of strats that you regularly see in matches/scrims, and to a lesser extent on public - and without delving too far into the realm of 4man pressure teams, cappers camping for map control and other map-specific and basicaly pedantic strats, let's see what we have.
<b>Obs pressure build :</b>
IP, Armory, Obs
2cappers, 3pressure w/ 1 sg 1 welder
<b>Armour1 pressure build :</b>
IP, Armory, Armslab->Armour1
2cappers, 3pressure w/ 1 sg 1 welder
<b>Early MT pressure build :</b>
IP, Armory Obs->MT
2cappers, 3pressure
Without going into minor variations like 4man pressures, double sg pressures and PG pressure strats ..... that's basically it. Out of the entire marine tech tree, we have 3 basic strats. One of which (fast MT) is extremely rarely used because of the cost involved, and is used as a stepping stone before you rush AL/A1 and continue up that build path.
The entire marine early game upgrade path is currently based around armour1, and phasegates. Surely that can't be right? Are we being forced into using a particular upgrade path when there are <i>so many</i> other options around?
The short answer is yes. Whilst other strats are available they are simply not viable against a competent team. Rushing an AA is again, a variation of a tactic because it <b>has</b> to be backed up with armour upgrades and then phasegates.
I think its about time we discussed alternatives to this current state of affairs. Personally I'd like to see more viable strats.
<i>a few suggestions to start the ball rolling:</i>
- buff catpacks (decreased drop cost/research cost) and move them to the armory.
- move weapon upgrades to the armory
- move the 'advanced armory' upgrade to the arms lab
- buff electrification somehow (reduced cost/researchtime perhaps?)
- make armour2 a viable alternative to weapons2 (currently a2 is only researched once you have prototech on the way, and thats after w2 almost always)
discuss.
<b>Obs pressure build :</b>
IP, Armory, Obs
2cappers, 3pressure w/ 1 sg 1 welder
<b>Armour1 pressure build :</b>
IP, Armory, Armslab->Armour1
2cappers, 3pressure w/ 1 sg 1 welder
<b>Early MT pressure build :</b>
IP, Armory Obs->MT
2cappers, 3pressure
Without going into minor variations like 4man pressures, double sg pressures and PG pressure strats ..... that's basically it. Out of the entire marine tech tree, we have 3 basic strats. One of which (fast MT) is extremely rarely used because of the cost involved, and is used as a stepping stone before you rush AL/A1 and continue up that build path.
The entire marine early game upgrade path is currently based around armour1, and phasegates. Surely that can't be right? Are we being forced into using a particular upgrade path when there are <i>so many</i> other options around?
The short answer is yes. Whilst other strats are available they are simply not viable against a competent team. Rushing an AA is again, a variation of a tactic because it <b>has</b> to be backed up with armour upgrades and then phasegates.
I think its about time we discussed alternatives to this current state of affairs. Personally I'd like to see more viable strats.
<i>a few suggestions to start the ball rolling:</i>
- buff catpacks (decreased drop cost/research cost) and move them to the armory.
- move weapon upgrades to the armory
- move the 'advanced armory' upgrade to the arms lab
- buff electrification somehow (reduced cost/researchtime perhaps?)
- make armour2 a viable alternative to weapons2 (currently a2 is only researched once you have prototech on the way, and thats after w2 almost always)
discuss.
Comments
I don't see how that is a variation on those 3 strats.
You say MT rushing is a different strat but AA rushing is only an alteration? I'd say MT is more dependant on upgrades than HMG's are, hmg's can push back fades without ups and make nothing of skulks, MT you're still going to need damage 2 to have a similar strength (35 res or 70 res).
Almost every strat is dependant on phase tech, but that isn't something to be ashamed of is it? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
I know what you mean though. There are still very small numbers of options for marines, (there used to be a lot less).
- I'd use catpacks more now if I actually remembered they exist when I comm.
- why? damage and armour upgrades are very closely linked, it makes sense to have them on the same structure.
- again, why? Armoury is about supply, it relates to heavy weps.
- cheap elec would be very overpowering, aliens need to dedicate a lot of time/res to fighting against electrified structures. A slightly reduced cost would be nicer I agree, it'd need balancing though.
- I see armour 2 as a very viable alternative, it's more that 'not having weps 2' is unviable. Armour 2 can often be more suited than weps 3 and i think it fits well there in the tech tree. Good spore deterant when being attacky.
You will never have an alternative to PG unless:
1. Marines somehow have an alternative to quickly reinforcing their position.
2. Marines somehow eliminate the need to reinforce a position.
I don't think either of these are possible without major gameplay changes. JPs/Catalysts cost res and aren't as fast as a PG, and you will almost always lose marines when attacked repeatedly, barring a large skill/tech discrepancy.
I would support changing catpacks to something more similar to grenades. Something to spawn with and to be activated at will.
I don't know if moving more upgrades to the armory is a good idea - it is already the central trunk of marine tech. If you split armor and weapoons upgrades, it could potentially mean vanilla marines getting too powerful compared to vanilla skulks too quickly.
I would favor changing electrification completely, to an upgraded that perhaps increased res flow, maximum HP, self-repaired, or even decreased energy of attacking aliens. Electrified RTs nearly make defending them unnececssary (At least until fades or gorges paired up with another alien show up), which I think, makes the game less dynamic.
A major reason why W2 is preferred over A2 is because the benefits of armor level off after A1. A marine with A2 still takes 3 non-focus swipes from a fade to kill, the same as A1. With focus, both still die on the second swipe. Furthermore, armor doesn't regenerate unless welded (And we all know how often marines do that), while your weapon will always have that +20% damage. I would increase the amount of armor each level of armor upgrades gives to 30. It would allow an A2 marine to survive more than 3 swipes without medpacks, and an A3 marine to survive more than 2 focus swipes. Against a skulk, it makes little difference, but would the boost against fades would definitely make it more viable.
Simply warping to one hive area to another totally beats taking minutes and walking there and risking your life along the way. Nothing will ever change this.
I'm just tossing some ideas out there to try and get some discussion started - I'd really like to see catpacks buffed to a point where they're economically viable early-game though (9res to cat a pressure team is pretty stupid).
Otherwise I fully agree, more diversity is needed.
Whatever your opinion on the definition of different strats - the fact remains that every single strat simply has to be backed up with armour1/phasegates in order for it to work, which in my opinion is wrong. I accept that, that's the way it is, and it isn't likely to change - but is it really what we as a community want to see done with the game?
I'm just tossing some ideas out there to try and get some discussion started - I'd really like to see catpacks buffed to a point where they're economically viable early-game though (9res to cat a pressure team is pretty stupid).
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And every alien strat is dependant on a hive and chambers being dropped, what's your point? There are far more viable marine strats than alien strats, even though just looking at the two you would think aliens would be more diverse. There are always going to be a couple of things every strategy is going to revolve around, that won't change. I agree that catpacks could be tweaked a bit, but reducing the cost would very probably overpower them. A catpacked level 1 HMG kills a fade in something like .3 seconds.
Also do note that there is one huge reason to use armor2 before weapons2 sometimes, which is called cloak.
getting MT is a idiotic move I always say. The more time passes, the more kharaa spam the map with SC, the lesser MT works. Now armor gives yet another bite and gives rines some extra time when ambused. In groups you 'fix' the lack of firepower.
So no.. I don't see your point about different strategies. I use quite alot of different strats.
MT is never a dumb upgrade. If anything, its the 'smartest'. It doesnt just help marines win battles, like any of the other ups, but it lets marines pick their battles and discover the aliens' weaknesses, amongst many other things. You could discuss this for quite awhile.
I still prefer A2 immediately after A1:
-its a +25% hp upgrade (except against fades), compared to only a +10% upgrade (which is both W1 and W2)
-It will be used no matter what, damage ups only matter if the marine actually shoots
-yes is it 'weak' compared to W1 in the sense that it is lost upon use; but a single welder nullifies all that
-PG camping becomes significantly more difficult for the aliens
-gas' overall effect is reduced
-marines will often stay alive long enough to, or even longer than, required to get that extra shot off and hence do just as much damage as the next weapon upgrade
-it has to be compared to W1, since it can be finished shortly after W1 would usually be finished, for only an extra 10 res. W2 would only be comparable a few mins later in the game
-by this i mean, my strat of A1-A2-W1 needs to be compared to the usual A1-W1-W2, as they are both equal in research time. IMO, having A2 that much sooner and for that much longer, seems to outweigh having W1 sooner, and then W2 finished before A2 has even begun. At the end of that third upgrade, I would ALWAYS prefer to have A2 finished than W2 finished.
Perhaps a 'tech-balancing' move could be to boost the damage of the handgrenades. Not by much, but just to 85 (they're at 80 currently... unless they changed it and i missed it). At 85, Weapons 1 would boost it up to 93 damage; enough to kill a non-carapace skulk. As such, we'd see a far more viable W1 strat, which would include the cheap initial upgrade on Handgrens... which is often already a first tech.
I still prefer A2 immediately after A1:
-its a +25% hp upgrade (except against fades), compared to only a +10% upgrade (which is both W1 and W2)
-It will be used no matter what, damage ups only matter if the marine actually shoots
-yes is it 'weak' compared to W1 in the sense that it is lost upon use; but a single welder nullifies all that
-PG camping becomes significantly more difficult for the aliens
-gas' overall effect is reduced
-marines will often stay alive long enough to, or even longer than, required to get that extra shot off and hence do just as much damage as the next weapon upgrade
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I guess its a bit of personal preference and a matter of pub/clan play, but I'd never get a2 early.
-It's still 3 swipes (how does the pg camping change?) with a2
-the 10% dmg effect can be huge sometimes, especially with shotty since you can most often get only 3 or 4 blasts. Every fade that has lower than 60 hp would've died with w1, the same goes for everything, including rt:s and stuff.
- It's even more crucial to get w2 quickly if the enemy goes dc.
- 10 res early means sometimes quite a lot.
A2 kicks in late in the game when I need to keep the aliens away from the pg:s or when I get jets/ha since they stay alive long and get medded enough to make use of the extra armor.
As for the clanning tactics:
In general the tactics are often quite similar. I've always thought its more about making the right decisions in a short notice of time. (2nd hive --> siege, sg rush or rt-war at 2 hives.) than the pure tactical gameplay. The tactics are mostly choosing from a few builds (pg, mt, aa, arms) and then trying to control the map so that it suits your plan. The trick is to have the marines where they are the most use.
Peach often uses interesting stuff in his rounds, like ha before the 2nd hive, relocs and jp rushes. Insane played quite creative also with their early mt being more of a rule than exeption. Some team US rounds made nice use of the handgrens. Levi used mines to protect the rt:s.
The lack of different tactics is partly because of the nature of the game but also partly because teams stick with the safe ones. For lower skill comms its quite challenging to win the rounds with the normal tactics, no need to go creative.
Still, more possible options would be a very positive thing.
You have to take that into account when you're talking about these things, if you're rushing cats you're <b>going</b> to have late armour1, if you rush MT you're <b>going</b> to have a late AA. That balance of which upgrades to get is very important and I don't think enough peopel take that into account.
Cats are simply a risk. Its like the risk of dropping an SG, but more compounded. A shotty could potentially kill the fade or more aliens or rts, but it could also be ambushed and then not picked up in time. 10 res completely wasted.
Cats are 3 res apiece. They could definitely mean exactly the same as a shotty; the rines can empty their clips way faster, dodge far more efficiently, and even knife down nodes like its their sole purpose in life. But, if the marine get a cat and just dies, much like how its common enough to see marines die with practically no warning, then that res is totally gone. At least SGs you can run to and pick up.
I've never done cats first in matches, mostly because it wasn't until after my main CAL experiences that I really realized their use. The times in pubs where i've rushed them (first tech), they've sometimes led to horrible losses, but many times, they've worked exactly as mentioned. I'd cat anyone who got near an alien rt; cat marines about to fight; cat marines who were fighting and had a reasonable chance of surviving long enough to make use of them; and saved enough before the hive rushes to cat the entire team right as they go through the door into the hive.
IMO cats are sorely underused, mostly due to their appearance of being high risk. But really, at least imo, that high risk is coupled with MASSIVE potential.
I'd just like to make the point here that I haven't personally seen one single team EVER go catpacks as first upgrade. Ever. Whatever the numbers and arguments behind it there is a reason that teams don't use them earlygame - it's because if you're getting early cats its <b>instead of</b> a more important upgrade such as amour1 or phasegates.
You have to take that into account when you're talking about these things, if you're rushing cats you're <b>going</b> to have late armour1, if you rush MT you're <b>going</b> to have a late AA. That balance of which upgrades to get is very important and I don't think enough peopel take that into account.
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Not every upgrade is supposed to be working early in the game. I'm not saying that catpacks are fine as they are though. Still, its a bit like complaining that rushing with the king in chess is badly balanced because it never works.
Warcraft 3 doesn't have many tech tree routes either. Still, people play it at professional level and are able to beat each other with a combination of micromanagement and right tactics. Those tactics don't involve tons of different units, but timing, scouting, sometimes decoys, balancing between the expansions and unit economy, making the right calls (to fight or to teleport away and ect.). Once again, ns could use more tactics, but it isn't all about the tech tree. 3.2 made a lot of new stuff possible, its an improvement already. There's still a lot of potential in the very old ns, its just up to people to realize, I believe.
no debate thank you
Cats are simply a risk. Its like the risk of dropping an SG, but more compounded. A shotty could potentially kill the fade or more aliens or rts, but it could also be ambushed and then not picked up in time. 10 res completely wasted.
Cats are 3 res apiece. They could definitely mean exactly the same as a shotty; the rines can empty their clips way faster, dodge far more efficiently, and even knife down nodes like its their sole purpose in life. But, if the marine get a cat and just dies, much like how its common enough to see marines die with practically no warning, then that res is totally gone. At least SGs you can run to and pick up.
I've never done cats first in matches, mostly because it wasn't until after my main CAL experiences that I really realized their use. The times in pubs where i've rushed them (first tech), they've sometimes led to horrible losses, but many times, they've worked exactly as mentioned. I'd cat anyone who got near an alien rt; cat marines about to fight; cat marines who were fighting and had a reasonable chance of surviving long enough to make use of them; and saved enough before the hive rushes to cat the entire team right as they go through the door into the hive.
IMO cats are sorely underused, mostly due to their appearance of being high risk. But really, at least imo, that high risk is coupled with MASSIVE potential. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well said. In public play they are pratically forgotten in favor of hand grenades. But any comm who can drop ammo and meds strategically is certainly competent enough to be devestating with catpacks. In fact I like to drop both catpacks and meds when rushing a hive. You'll be suprised how much stronger your marines suddenly become. LMG's act like HMGs, shotguns become excellent anti-structure weapons. Yes it comes with a cost, but if you like to play rush tactics into your strategy when commanding then you must give them a try. And you can get them anywhere insta-express delivered for the low price of 3 res per drop! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
In general, it's all about opportunity cost for res and time; and we've been playing the game long enough to have solved the problem and work out the few arguably optimal solutions.
Generally, the marine will lose. Even pro players have difficulty killing 3 skulks rushing them all at once. Lets say that usually, the marine kills at least one. The rfk there is 1-3.
So what happens if the comm decides to give him a cat right before the battle? If the player is decent, he'll have a far better chance at getting at least one more kill, if not both. A pro player will almost certainly kill all 3.
So there, you're talking an extra 2-6 rfk, almost certainly paying off the added cost of the cat. But what if you give the cat, the marine kills maybe just one extra skulk, and still dies? The rfk pays 1-3, so likely not paying off the cat... but was the '1-2 res loss' worth the extra skulk kill? That extra skulk, no longer hitting rts, ambushing other marines, etc, who now has to begin back at the hive in about 8 seconds? IMO, definitely.
But, of course, its still always a risk.
If the rine is alone and playing defensively, thats the kind of situation i was talking about with the 3 skulks rushing him. A cat would make all the difference in the world, in that situation, just like it would in many others.
I've gotten back into using them just recently (really since we had this discussion), and i've gotten them first about 4 times as comm. Three of the games were wins, with the other being a horrible loss due to only one node getting capped (initial tech wouldnt have really mattered much).
But when I was using them, the marines were owning hard. Everyone was loving it. You get used to it after your first second or two, and then its just straight ownage. Even when the fade came and started hitting the AA (happened a few times), i'd drop myself a shotty and cat, and give that fade one HELL of a hello.
The thing i found, was that the initial 20 res was forgotten very quickly, and other ups continued as normal. With this strat, i really push for the rines to cap every node they can. I found that the simple ability of Cats, available whenever i wanted, was phenomenal, and under so many circumstances. The best perhaps, and even by itself making cats worthwhile IMO, is for alien RTs. A cat'ed marine knifes the HELL out of those things, definitely worth the 3 res for its potential effect on the game.