<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Even just as cannon fodder they're what create opportunities for lifeforms to go in for the kill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And there also a great opportunity for that shotgunner to pick up some free res for the team.
There's that risk with every engagement, for both teams. What's your point?
Having faded against the best natural selection players in the world, I can tell you 100% that I'd sooner engage a single marine with a weapon with skulk support than without. At top tier play any shotgunner is capable of killing you if the commander wants it to happen. You don't even need to make a massive mistake, you go in for the kill and the commander decides he wants to keep that marine alive then you need to have 100% accuracy on your swipes or make the decision to disengage within a split second, otherwise you find yourself on 200hp needing an exit strategy and getting killed trying to execute it.
Yea o well i have to agree if the gamer service of this game is that pathetic then yea i agree just let it die. O well life goes on rine noobs will die along with us after the alien pop dies so o well. Bescides i got something that NEEEEVERRRRRR gets old. TRIBES 2 CONSTRUCTION MOD!!!!!!!!!!! WOOOOOOOOOOOOOT!!!!
<!--quoteo(post=1619355:date=Apr 6 2007, 04:57 PM:name=Joe2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Joe2 @ Apr 6 2007, 04:57 PM) [snapback]1619355[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Half true, because you forget that marines can jump, and sometime, the reg hit is not accurate at 100% (when you bite a marine 5 times and he don't die, there something wrong). <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You forgot the part where it takes an average of 20-25 bullets to kill a skulk when you really should only need 11. Hit reg works both ways.
The thing i really dont understand about all these 'aliens suck' players, is... where the hell do they play?
I mean, they're obviously horrible, all of us better players know that. Not to knock you guys or anything, im just saying.
Because just about every time one of us better players goes aliens, we get tons of kills as aliens. I know ive been slipping in the past week, but thats due to a cumulative 25 hours of sleep over the last week due to the final rush for essays. In general though, better players OWN as skulks, or at least get decently positive with the semi-frequent multikills or full-out lockdown destruction.
If you supposedly have no problem killing skulks EVER, and supposedly have these huge ratios, and STILL cant skulk worth a crap... get off the marine trainer servers.
Skulks have the highest damage output next to onoses. They deal more damage in close quarters than fades do. Not to mention they can get from point a to point b at almost twice the speed of a marine (untill the emergence of phase gates, but at that point you should have a lerk and very soon a fade). When it comes down to it it's all about team play and making sure your skulks can do the damage they are capable off.
In a one on one situation hell yes they're weak. But coupled with a fade or a lerk and in the right situation they can rival those same life forms in damage output for a measly cost of risking 1-3 resources for the enemy team. That's one medpack, yeah.
TRIBBBBBBEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSS 2 CONSTUCTIONNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOODDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WAIST UR LIFE ON IT INSTEAD OF NS!!! WOOOOOOT!!!!
<!--quoteo(post=1619412:date=Apr 7 2007, 07:01 AM:name=StixNStonz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StixNStonz @ Apr 7 2007, 07:01 AM) [snapback]1619412[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> The thing i really dont understand about all these 'aliens suck' players, is... where the hell do they play?
I mean, they're obviously horrible, all of us better players know that. Not to knock you guys or anything, im just saying.
Because just about every time one of us better players goes aliens, we get tons of kills as aliens. I know ive been slipping in the past week, but thats due to a cumulative 25 hours of sleep over the last week due to the final rush for essays. In general though, better players OWN as skulks, or at least get decently positive with the semi-frequent multikills or full-out lockdown destruction.
If you supposedly have no problem killing skulks EVER, and supposedly have these huge ratios, and STILL cant skulk worth a crap... get off the marine trainer servers. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Still there's a problem if lower skill levels learn marines much easier to play than skulks. I just don't know how much easier it can be made. It's already a class that requires hardly any reflexes or fps skills at lower skill levels if played correctly.
<!--quoteo(post=1619546:date=Apr 8 2007, 03:40 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bacillus @ Apr 8 2007, 03:40 AM) [snapback]1619546[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Still there's a problem if lower skill levels learn marines much easier to play than skulks. I just don't know how much easier it can be made. It's already a class that requires hardly any reflexes or fps skills at lower skill levels if played correctly. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1619548:date=Apr 8 2007, 07:49 AM:name=the_x5)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(the_x5 @ Apr 8 2007, 07:49 AM) [snapback]1619548[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Knockback? Or just increase base speed a tad? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe they'll work, maybe not. Still, they won't stop aliens from playing horrible at pub. People run long hallways and build ocs in useless places. I like I said, it isn't right that marines are easier to learn, but on the other hand I feel it really isn't fair altering the balance just because people fail to adapt to anything more complex than basic fps with ranged weapons.
<!--quoteo(post=1619599:date=Apr 8 2007, 10:22 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bacillus @ Apr 8 2007, 10:22 AM) [snapback]1619599[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I like I said, it isn't right that marines are easier to learn, but on the other hand I feel it really isn't fair altering the balance just because people fail to adapt to anything more complex than basic fps with ranged weapons. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Do you want NS to succeed or fail?
To make the game appealing it has to be playable to the masses not some small portion hardcore game players whilst still having enough depth to be enjoyable for the hardcore players... And here lies the problem...
Combat was the attempt to make NS more appealing to the lowest common denominator, did it succeed personally i don't think so....
At the end of the day majority of games are played in a Pub setting (i was in the hardcore clan scene as well i know how that works) so for NS to grow it has to be fun for these players first and foremost...
When one team always feels like its at a disadvantage it really takes the fun out of the game... When the unit which you spend the MAJORITY of your time as is difficult to play it just ends up as a frustrating experience and people give up...
The learning curve on the skulk needs to be made easier, its a very hard unit to play well as it is then add on top of it crappy netcode which never registers bites, little ledges etc which u get stuck on and stop and other annoying game engine problem then add 1 or 2 god like pro marines and you have a class which for the most part is a draining experience to play.
My philosophy for skulks is: If they manage to land the first bite then 95% of the time they should walk away with the kill until marines are a fair way down their tech tree currently this is not the case.
I hope this issue is addressed in the next patch its the only real outstanding issue if feel with NS1...
Marine has better-than-average aim, can take down a skulk even after he's bit his shins off. After all, there's a ton of skill in pointing your gun downward and aiming, right?
We all have a problem with one or two pro marines who can waste four or five skulks without having to reload, but how come no one ever mentions the one or two pro skulks who can waste four or five marines without loosing 50 HP each? It happens -all- the time, especially if those players get the drop on a squad first. What chance do marines have when they're all bunched up and skulks run about their heels munching and crunching?
No one ever talks about aliens who get all the best players - everyone always complains about marines getting the best and how they 'own' alien teams single-handedly. I've had the odds stacked immensely against me in all kinds of matches as a marine and lost whenever I knew the aliens were supperior. I played NS not too long ago and after playing both teams we lost 50% of the time as marines. What usually killed us?
Skulks.
When you have Fades, do you really think Marines will start traveling alone? They open up with shotguns and move in packs as they should - it brings the bipedal *******s down. However, skulks, who come up to your ankles, were meant to take down one or two marines - not a pack.
Skulks have to be smart, and that means not running at the enemy in a straight line. Even bunnyhopping in a straight line wont work. They allow us to crawl on walls for a reason and we should start doing it. Know what the hardest thing to do to a skulk when he's approaching you is? Shooting him when he's strafing on the ceiling - my mind cant calculate where he's going because it's unnatural to shoot at that angle.
Personally, Aliens have been getting nothing but beefing because the few people who post constantly complain about the alien's lack of prowess when it all boils down to operator error.
The few seem to have their way with the devs. NS is failing because its old and NS2 hasn't shown any signs of being released soon, so people are moving on.
<!--quoteo(post=1620052:date=Apr 10 2007, 12:27 PM:name=DuoGodOfDeath)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DuoGodOfDeath @ Apr 10 2007, 12:27 PM) [snapback]1620052[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Zavrix is speaking blasphemy! We all know the welder is over powered and needs to be toned down big time. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What's a welder? Is that the vent closing tool thingy?
I agree with you Zavrix. Skulks have awesome power. As people have mentioned, they have HUGE damage output, its just that they need to be in melee range. While they hold a *SLIGHT* disadvantage in the beginning, there are ways to turn that in their favour. And, once the 2nd hive is up, they have a HUGE advantage. Leap closes the gap VERY quickly, and through whatever kind of approach the Skulk chooses. I get nothing but Adren once the 2nd hive is up, and this leads to not only closing the gap quickly, but also having insane evasive techniques. Its not uncommon to have a squad of 5 marines take a full 20 seconds to take a good adren/leap skulk out, with the skulk getting at least one kill, but almost always 5-10 bites.
<i>The skulk's biggest advantage is the fact that they are the most expendable lifeform in the game.</i> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/skulk.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::skulk::" border="0" alt="skulk.gif" />
Every other lifeform has to watch their life, lest their res points be wasted. This forces them to play at least somewhat cautiously. Even vanilla marines are more important than skulks, because it takes them a whole lot longer to get back to said location if they die (assuming no PG).
When I'm comming and trying to seige a hive I'm generally more worried about skulks (ESPECIALLY if they have hive 2) because they will just keep rushing and won't retreat like a fade will. They just have to get lucky/fight well one time out of their practically unlimitted number of rushes.
Focus skulk also owns Jps if they get the jump on them at all. Half of the time Jpers haven't had time to get a weld in between fights and they're finished. I find its generally easier to kill a shotgunner with a Jp than one without because their attention isn't as focused (with leap of course).
You just have to be smart with a skulk. If you have a lerk spore spamming, get focus for one hit kills. If you are playing bad that day, get cloak. Skulks have tons of options because if they choose their ups poorly they get to redo it immediately with no cost.
Literally the only thing I feel helpless against as a skulk is a well-upgraded heavy train. Even then at least you can para/distract to help the rest of team out.
I understand what everyone is getting at but i don't really agree..
Running up walls randomly etc is an excellent idea and tactic as a skulk and that is how they are meant to be played i totally agree...
But the majority of the game/engine/map design doesn't allow this to happen easily, there are far to many ledges etc which you can be easily caught on and a skulk thats not moving is dead.
Unless you have a photographic memory of every map it can be tricky to move fluidity on walls and roofs which once again comes down to learning curve and making the game appealing to new players..
Yes i've seen situations where a skulk manages to get amongst a bunch of marines and brings them down but ask yourself how often do you see that and how often do you see a marine walking around with a 10 0 score.
If 4 marines are incompetent enough to let one skulk get amongst them they are not very good players.
"The skulk's biggest advantage is the fact that they are the most expendable lifeform in the game."
This would be true if the marines didn't get res for everyone that was killed.
I'm not sure about you guys personally but i have real big issues with getting my skulk bites to land, i've got a decent PC and cable but i can never get good hit rego as a skulk, i'm not sure if others feel the same but this really pisses me off i can't remember this issues in earlier versions.
<!--quoteo(post=1620190:date=Apr 10 2007, 10:55 PM:name=kabab)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(kabab @ Apr 10 2007, 10:55 PM) [snapback]1620190[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I'm not sure about you guys personally but i have real big issues with getting my skulk bites to land, i've got a decent PC and cable but i can never get good hit rego as a skulk, i'm not sure if others feel the same but this really pisses me off i can't remember this issues in earlier versions. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
there is a very noticeable difference in bite range and collisions when i change my rates, so i suggest you play around with ex_interp, cl_updaterate, and cl_cmdrate a bit.
<!--quoteo(post=1620195:date=Apr 11 2007, 12:03 AM:name=enigma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(enigma @ Apr 11 2007, 12:03 AM) [snapback]1620195[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> there is a very noticeable difference in bite range and collisions when i change my rates, so i suggest you play around with ex_interp, cl_updaterate, and cl_cmdrate a bit. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Tried them all....
Comments
And there also a great opportunity for that shotgunner to pick up some free res for the team.
Having faded against the best natural selection players in the world, I can tell you 100% that I'd sooner engage a single marine with a weapon with skulk support than without. At top tier play any shotgunner is capable of killing you if the commander wants it to happen. You don't even need to make a massive mistake, you go in for the kill and the commander decides he wants to keep that marine alive then you need to have 100% accuracy on your swipes or make the decision to disengage within a split second, otherwise you find yourself on 200hp needing an exit strategy and getting killed trying to execute it.
Half true, because you forget that marines can jump, and sometime, the reg hit is not accurate at 100% (when you bite a marine 5 times and he don't die, there something wrong).
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You forgot the part where it takes an average of 20-25 bullets to kill a skulk when you really should only need 11. Hit reg works both ways.
I mean, they're obviously horrible, all of us better players know that. Not to knock you guys or anything, im just saying.
Because just about every time one of us better players goes aliens, we get tons of kills as aliens. I know ive been slipping in the past week, but thats due to a cumulative 25 hours of sleep over the last week due to the final rush for essays. In general though, better players OWN as skulks, or at least get decently positive with the semi-frequent multikills or full-out lockdown destruction.
If you supposedly have no problem killing skulks EVER, and supposedly have these huge ratios, and STILL cant skulk worth a crap... get off the marine trainer servers.
In a one on one situation hell yes they're weak. But coupled with a fade or a lerk and in the right situation they can rival those same life forms in damage output for a measly cost of risking 1-3 resources for the enemy team. That's one medpack, yeah.
Don't rush at the enemy in a straight line.
Problem solved.
The thing i really dont understand about all these 'aliens suck' players, is... where the hell do they play?
I mean, they're obviously horrible, all of us better players know that. Not to knock you guys or anything, im just saying.
Because just about every time one of us better players goes aliens, we get tons of kills as aliens. I know ive been slipping in the past week, but thats due to a cumulative 25 hours of sleep over the last week due to the final rush for essays. In general though, better players OWN as skulks, or at least get decently positive with the semi-frequent multikills or full-out lockdown destruction.
If you supposedly have no problem killing skulks EVER, and supposedly have these huge ratios, and STILL cant skulk worth a crap... get off the marine trainer servers.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Still there's a problem if lower skill levels learn marines much easier to play than skulks. I just don't know how much easier it can be made. It's already a class that requires hardly any reflexes or fps skills at lower skill levels if played correctly.
Still there's a problem if lower skill levels learn marines much easier to play than skulks. I just don't know how much easier it can be made. It's already a class that requires hardly any reflexes or fps skills at lower skill levels if played correctly.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Knockback? Or just increase base speed a tad?
Knockback? Or just increase base speed a tad?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe they'll work, maybe not. Still, they won't stop aliens from playing horrible at pub. People run long hallways and build ocs in useless places. I like I said, it isn't right that marines are easier to learn, but on the other hand I feel it really isn't fair altering the balance just because people fail to adapt to anything more complex than basic fps with ranged weapons.
3. Tell me how dodging players like Makalevi goes.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
HERE COMES TAL
I like I said, it isn't right that marines are easier to learn, but on the other hand I feel it really isn't fair altering the balance just because people fail to adapt to anything more complex than basic fps with ranged weapons.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do you want NS to succeed or fail?
To make the game appealing it has to be playable to the masses not some small portion hardcore game players whilst still having enough depth to be enjoyable for the hardcore players... And here lies the problem...
Combat was the attempt to make NS more appealing to the lowest common denominator, did it succeed personally i don't think so....
At the end of the day majority of games are played in a Pub setting (i was in the hardcore clan scene as well i know how that works) so for NS to grow it has to be fun for these players first and foremost...
When one team always feels like its at a disadvantage it really takes the fun out of the game... When the unit which you spend the MAJORITY of your time as is difficult to play it just ends up as a frustrating experience and people give up...
The learning curve on the skulk needs to be made easier, its a very hard unit to play well as it is then add on top of it crappy netcode which never registers bites, little ledges etc which u get stuck on and stop and other annoying game engine problem then add 1 or 2 god like pro marines and you have a class which for the most part is a draining experience to play.
My philosophy for skulks is: If they manage to land the first bite then 95% of the time they should walk away with the kill until marines are a fair way down their tech tree currently this is not the case.
I hope this issue is addressed in the next patch its the only real outstanding issue if feel with NS1...
Marine has better-than-average aim, can take down a skulk even after he's bit his shins off. After all, there's a ton of skill in pointing your gun downward and aiming, right?
We all have a problem with one or two pro marines who can waste four or five skulks without having to reload, but how come no one ever mentions the one or two pro skulks who can waste four or five marines without loosing 50 HP each? It happens -all- the time, especially if those players get the drop on a squad first. What chance do marines have when they're all bunched up and skulks run about their heels munching and crunching?
No one ever talks about aliens who get all the best players - everyone always complains about marines getting the best and how they 'own' alien teams single-handedly. I've had the odds stacked immensely against me in all kinds of matches as a marine and lost whenever I knew the aliens were supperior. I played NS not too long ago and after playing both teams we lost 50% of the time as marines. What usually killed us?
Skulks.
When you have Fades, do you really think Marines will start traveling alone? They open up with shotguns and move in packs as they should - it brings the bipedal *******s down. However, skulks, who come up to your ankles, were meant to take down one or two marines - not a pack.
Skulks have to be smart, and that means not running at the enemy in a straight line. Even bunnyhopping in a straight line wont work. They allow us to crawl on walls for a reason and we should start doing it. Know what the hardest thing to do to a skulk when he's approaching you is? Shooting him when he's strafing on the ceiling - my mind cant calculate where he's going because it's unnatural to shoot at that angle.
Personally, Aliens have been getting nothing but beefing because the few people who post constantly complain about the alien's lack of prowess when it all boils down to operator error.
The few seem to have their way with the devs. NS is failing because its old and NS2 hasn't shown any signs of being released soon, so people are moving on.
Zavrix is speaking blasphemy! We all know the welder is over powered and needs to be toned down big time.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What's a welder? Is that the vent closing tool thingy?
Every other lifeform has to watch their life, lest their res points be wasted. This forces them to play at least somewhat cautiously. Even vanilla marines are more important than skulks, because it takes them a whole lot longer to get back to said location if they die (assuming no PG).
When I'm comming and trying to seige a hive I'm generally more worried about skulks (ESPECIALLY if they have hive 2) because they will just keep rushing and won't retreat like a fade will. They just have to get lucky/fight well one time out of their practically unlimitted number of rushes.
Focus skulk also owns Jps if they get the jump on them at all. Half of the time Jpers haven't had time to get a weld in between fights and they're finished. I find its generally easier to kill a shotgunner with a Jp than one without because their attention isn't as focused (with leap of course).
You just have to be smart with a skulk. If you have a lerk spore spamming, get focus for one hit kills. If you are playing bad that day, get cloak. Skulks have tons of options because if they choose their ups poorly they get to redo it immediately with no cost.
Literally the only thing I feel helpless against as a skulk is a well-upgraded heavy train. Even then at least you can para/distract to help the rest of team out.
Running up walls randomly etc is an excellent idea and tactic as a skulk and that is how they are meant to be played i totally agree...
But the majority of the game/engine/map design doesn't allow this to happen easily, there are far to many ledges etc which you can be easily caught on and a skulk thats not moving is dead.
Unless you have a photographic memory of every map it can be tricky to move fluidity on walls and roofs which once again comes down to learning curve and making the game appealing to new players..
Yes i've seen situations where a skulk manages to get amongst a bunch of marines and brings them down but ask yourself how often do you see that and how often do you see a marine walking around with a 10 0 score.
If 4 marines are incompetent enough to let one skulk get amongst them they are not very good players.
"The skulk's biggest advantage is the fact that they are the most expendable lifeform in the game."
This would be true if the marines didn't get res for everyone that was killed.
I'm not sure about you guys personally but i have real big issues with getting my skulk bites to land, i've got a decent PC and cable but i can never get good hit rego as a skulk, i'm not sure if others feel the same but this really pisses me off i can't remember this issues in earlier versions.
I'm not sure about you guys personally but i have real big issues with getting my skulk bites to land, i've got a decent PC and cable but i can never get good hit rego as a skulk, i'm not sure if others feel the same but this really pisses me off i can't remember this issues in earlier versions.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
there is a very noticeable difference in bite range and collisions when i change my rates, so i suggest you play around with ex_interp, cl_updaterate, and cl_cmdrate a bit.
there is a very noticeable difference in bite range and collisions when i change my rates, so i suggest you play around with ex_interp, cl_updaterate, and cl_cmdrate a bit.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tried them all....