Fly by wire scout bot? Grappling gun? Constuctables?
James1986
Join Date: 2007-03-15 Member: 60366Members
Join Date: 2007-03-15 Member: 60366Members
<div class="IPBDescription">?</div>Ok, so how about the marines get a flyby wire scout bot, able to be built from the start( or researched). They can have as many as they want but they are completely weaponless. They can then fly them into vents, around corners, try to find hives etc, without hurting themselves in the process. However the bots have practically no armour, and can be bitten, or munched down easily, mid flight. Even crashing into walls will take it out if you go too fast!
Perhaps variations on this, such as instead of a flying bot, maybe a mini track thing, that sticks to walls, so can still go into the vent?
Maybe the commander can set them up to be permanent cameras, and has a little GUI that he can select to view them? Then he can get visuals on unidentified bleeps, on the map?!?! Obviously a limit on how many this can support.
perhaps balancing this so that it is nanite powered? so it cannot go over dynamic infestation? or possibly the flying one can, but as soon as it touches it it gets linked to the DI and gives the aliens the ability to have a '3rd eye' (or 12th sense or whatever), and they gain an advantage?
Grappling gun
ok, so with this im thinking that the marines would have to cross a broken gangway, or inter facility bridge, crossing a large distance. To do this they get the com to drop a grappling gun, which they build and fire across. It lodges itself into wherever they aimed it (1 minute reload time). and then they can shimmy across. If aimed down they can slide it, but cant get back up.
The aliens can chew through this wire though, so its not too imbalanced, but it is made of high strength titanium alloy, so it does take a bit of chewing.
It would be fun also for something like a fade to sacrifice itself to get in the way of the grapple, and pull the whole thing into an abyss! A cool effect would be to have it go right through the middle of the fade, then have its ragdoll corpse slide down the wire towards the marines! Or for the marines to make a quick retreat once they have planted some C4 in the hive. Sliding back to base mid explosion! Obviously for balance, the gun can only support one grapple rail attached, and so to re fire it has to be either disconnected? or reeled back in?
Obviously once the grapple bridge has been established skulks can use it to get over a previously un jumpable gap.
One thing i want to make clear is that i DONT want this to be a gun in the inventory. That would make it way too imbalanced and a stupid copy of the spiderman mod from CS.
Constuctables.
With this Im thinking about destroyed environments, such as ladders that have rusted or broken by DI, needing to be replaced. A simple shout to the Comm, he drops, you build, voila! Extra acces! Maybe there could be some general shapes the commander could make with the nanites, which the marines can use to create their own contraptions; like a basic garrys mod?
What about Onos traps, or traps in general. Take a while to set up and are costly, but can take the onos down in one hit!? A giant bear trap maybe? A bit conspicuous but you catch my drift.
Please feel free to add your own ideas here, I want to create a little more stratagey for the commander, but give the marines the power to explore?! and not just be stuck to where they can walk/crawl.
The best bit about all this is that the aliens dont need to get anything to balance it! All this is, is extra utilites for the marines to use to get about the maps; which hopefully will be able to be more dynamic with the source engine. Perhaps the gap can be bridged by DI.......
Perhaps variations on this, such as instead of a flying bot, maybe a mini track thing, that sticks to walls, so can still go into the vent?
Maybe the commander can set them up to be permanent cameras, and has a little GUI that he can select to view them? Then he can get visuals on unidentified bleeps, on the map?!?! Obviously a limit on how many this can support.
perhaps balancing this so that it is nanite powered? so it cannot go over dynamic infestation? or possibly the flying one can, but as soon as it touches it it gets linked to the DI and gives the aliens the ability to have a '3rd eye' (or 12th sense or whatever), and they gain an advantage?
Grappling gun
ok, so with this im thinking that the marines would have to cross a broken gangway, or inter facility bridge, crossing a large distance. To do this they get the com to drop a grappling gun, which they build and fire across. It lodges itself into wherever they aimed it (1 minute reload time). and then they can shimmy across. If aimed down they can slide it, but cant get back up.
The aliens can chew through this wire though, so its not too imbalanced, but it is made of high strength titanium alloy, so it does take a bit of chewing.
It would be fun also for something like a fade to sacrifice itself to get in the way of the grapple, and pull the whole thing into an abyss! A cool effect would be to have it go right through the middle of the fade, then have its ragdoll corpse slide down the wire towards the marines! Or for the marines to make a quick retreat once they have planted some C4 in the hive. Sliding back to base mid explosion! Obviously for balance, the gun can only support one grapple rail attached, and so to re fire it has to be either disconnected? or reeled back in?
Obviously once the grapple bridge has been established skulks can use it to get over a previously un jumpable gap.
One thing i want to make clear is that i DONT want this to be a gun in the inventory. That would make it way too imbalanced and a stupid copy of the spiderman mod from CS.
Constuctables.
With this Im thinking about destroyed environments, such as ladders that have rusted or broken by DI, needing to be replaced. A simple shout to the Comm, he drops, you build, voila! Extra acces! Maybe there could be some general shapes the commander could make with the nanites, which the marines can use to create their own contraptions; like a basic garrys mod?
What about Onos traps, or traps in general. Take a while to set up and are costly, but can take the onos down in one hit!? A giant bear trap maybe? A bit conspicuous but you catch my drift.
Please feel free to add your own ideas here, I want to create a little more stratagey for the commander, but give the marines the power to explore?! and not just be stuck to where they can walk/crawl.
The best bit about all this is that the aliens dont need to get anything to balance it! All this is, is extra utilites for the marines to use to get about the maps; which hopefully will be able to be more dynamic with the source engine. Perhaps the gap can be bridged by DI.......
Comments
Perhaps variations on this, such as instead of a flying bot, maybe a mini track thing, that sticks to walls, so can still go into the vent?
Maybe the commander can set them up to be permanent cameras, and has a little GUI that he can select to view them? Then he can get visuals on unidentified bleeps, on the map?!?! Obviously a limit on how many this can support.
perhaps balancing this so that it is nanite powered? so it cannot go over dynamic infestation? or possibly the flying one can, but as soon as it touches it it gets linked to the DI and gives the aliens the ability to have a '3rd eye' (or 12th sense or whatever), and they gain an advantage?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Interesting idea, I would like it better if you could upgrade them into manhacks. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1623201:date=Apr 26 2007, 05:00 AM:name=James1986)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(James1986 @ Apr 26 2007, 05:00 AM) [snapback]1623201[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Grappling gun
ok, so with this im thinking that the marines would have to cross a broken gangway, or inter facility bridge, crossing a large distance. To do this they get the com to drop a grappling gun, which they build and fire across. It lodges itself into wherever they aimed it (1 minute reload time). and then they can shimmy across. If aimed down they can slide it, but cant get back up.
The aliens can chew through this wire though, so its not too imbalanced, but it is made of high strength titanium alloy, so it does take a bit of chewing.
It would be fun also for something like a fade to sacrifice itself to get in the way of the grapple, and pull the whole thing into an abyss! A cool effect would be to have it go right through the middle of the fade, then have its ragdoll corpse slide down the wire towards the marines! Or for the marines to make a quick retreat once they have planted some C4 in the hive. Sliding back to base mid explosion! Obviously for balance, the gun can only support one grapple rail attached, and so to re fire it has to be either disconnected? or reeled back in?
Obviously once the grapple bridge has been established skulks can use it to get over a previously un jumpable gap.
One thing i want to make clear is that i DONT want this to be a gun in the inventory. That would make it way too imbalanced and a stupid copy of the spiderman mod from CS.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->This is a well thought out decision but I don't have time right now to explain all the points as to why.
vote <b><!--coloro:#CC0000--><span style="color:#CC0000"><!--/coloro-->no<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b><!--quoteo(post=1623201:date=Apr 26 2007, 05:00 AM:name=James1986)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(James1986 @ Apr 26 2007, 05:00 AM) [snapback]1623201[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Constuctables.
With this Im thinking about destroyed environments, such as ladders that have rusted or broken by DI, needing to be replaced. A simple shout to the Comm, he drops, you build, voila! Extra acces! Maybe there could be some general shapes the commander could make with the nanites, which the marines can use to create their own contraptions; like a basic garrys mod?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
An extremely rough idea, perhaps this gave somebody else some concepts.
<!--quoteo(post=1623201:date=Apr 26 2007, 05:00 AM:name=James1986)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(James1986 @ Apr 26 2007, 05:00 AM) [snapback]1623201[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What about Onos traps, or traps in general. Take a while to set up and are costly, but can take the onos down in one hit!? A giant bear trap maybe? A bit conspicuous but you catch my drift.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You realize you're going to get a MSPaint illustration of this shortly in a certain thread? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1623201:date=Apr 26 2007, 05:00 AM:name=James1986)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(James1986 @ Apr 26 2007, 05:00 AM) [snapback]1623201[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Please feel free to add your own ideas here, I want to create a little more stratagey for the commander, but give the marines the power to explore?! and not just be stuck to where they can walk/crawl.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok sure, but not without researching it first or spending res on it. Mobility is the aliens' advantage, not the marines. They are the ones who have to pit melee attacks against marines carrying guns. Not an easy feat.
<!--quoteo(post=1623201:date=Apr 26 2007, 05:00 AM:name=James1986)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(James1986 @ Apr 26 2007, 05:00 AM) [snapback]1623201[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The best bit about all this is that the aliens dont need to get anything to balance it! All this is, is extra utilites for the marines to use to get about the maps; which hopefully will be able to be more dynamic with the source engine. Perhaps the gap can be bridged by DI.......<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I <!--coloro:#CC0000--><span style="color:#CC0000"><!--/coloro-->disagree<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wow.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":0" border="0" alt="wow.gif" /> Every single added feature large or small has some effect on the balance equation, whether major or minor. It could critically change how some of the maps are played and create the need for more blocks to prevent exploits.
Grappling gun: No, no, no, no, <!--sizeo:7--><span style="font-size:36pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->NO!<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Bad idea. Marines aren't supposed to have that kind of mobility either. Especially not for cheap hive-bombing. The idea of Marines being able to shoot fades and one-hit-kill them is also really stupid. I'm sorry, but this idea is NOT for NS.
They Garry's mod concept is kinda cool, but it would take too long to make anything work properly.
I think I'll personally MS paint the onos trap.
EDIT: Here it is! <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?s=5872308128417743872&showtopic=101185" target="_blank">Click</a>
The fact that you think aliens wouldn't need counters only adds to my hysterical laughter.
or if they made it so the grappling hook was actually rope, and could be used with pulleys - so you could attach it to a heavy object and hoist it up to make a diagonal ramp
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I'd like the first one better if they were manhacks. Come on you'd know how cool that be to send a bunch of manhacks into a hive right before you go to push in. Or perhaps use them as a way to flush out a vent before going in.
I'd like the first one better if they were manhacks. Come on you'd know how cool that be to send a bunch of manhacks into a hive right before you go to push in. Or perhaps use them as a way to flush out a vent before going in.
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Is there an Alein counter for this you can think of, though? I didn't think so. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Interesting ideas, nonetheless, if maybe they won't be good in gameplay. :S
Is there an Alein counter for this you can think of, though? I didn't think so. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
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Sure! OC's for one. Just a single bite for skulks, lerks, fades, onos. Gorge would have harder time, yes. Which is where they'd be useful for marines: clearing that bile bombing gorge out of the vent better than a handgrenade can. They'd mostly be an annoyance for most aliens but in large numbers they could be deadly.
You also have dynamic infestation to account for. And lerks have gas, perhaps that could mess them up somehow too.
I'd like to see the tampons get replaced by these, honestly.
The main points previously could well unbalance the game as it stands, however, things like the grappling gun would be very useful for scenario maps. Personally I would like to see a lot more variety in types of gameply, however I understand a lot of people think this would ruin, or divide the game even more.....
It makes sense that for something like a siege scenario, the aliens have hidden themselves somewhere way out of normal reach of the humans. And so, gaps must be bridged, ladders repaired, gangways raised, electrics replaced etc etc. to enable the marines to slowy climb their way to the hive.
Personally, I think motion tracking should be fixed by NS2. It should only pick up aliens when they are moving, and even then, the commander, or marines dont have a clue what is about to come around the corner. So if they are still, and a bot flies around a corner the alien can simply drop onto it and munch it, gone! This would add to the atmosphere of the game. Imagine flying your bot about, and suddenly the screen goes static, or you see a pair of teeth flying towards the camera. You could even have it linked to a big screen back at central command so everyone can see it go down and start worrying themselves.
I like the paint of the trap =)
I would like to hear some of the guys who said they dont have time to explain, why it would be a bad idea to have the grapple gun buildable, maybe I can swing your vote around, as its not very clearly explained...
and like X5 said, there are plenty of advantages coming in for the aliens at the moment, and not many for the marines....
-Required research (advanced armoury perhaps)
-DOES NOT ONE SHOT KILL (does no damage in fact, if an alien blocks it just fails).
-Is a one shot device, making essentially a marine placed ladder which can be chomped down.
I think the grapperling hook is the best idea out of those suggested there :o
I'd like the first one better if they were manhacks. Come on you'd know how cool that be to send a bunch of manhacks into a hive right before you go to push in. Or perhaps use them as a way to flush out a vent before going in.
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Do like. The question is, how are they produced and presented? I read research , but then what? bought/placed/grabbed/spawned/limited/item?
Grapplehook: See other thread about marines boosting eachother and proneing in vents. The marines already have jetpack as ultimate agility, I wouldn't want another to give them easy access.
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How? Add it as a reseachable to the armory.
As I said I'd like them to replace the tampons (aka. current hand grenades). A single manhack isn't a theat, but if you are camping a vent and a squad of marines all throw their manhacks up at you... uh oh that's a bit to many.
Which of course is a natural teamplay emphasizing method: advantages for sticking together in numerical superiority. Bile bombing gorges without attack class support would be the most threatened by these, in otherwords that would be what this upgrade is the primary counter to: vent campers and especially solo bile bombing gorge campers.
It also does the suppression role better than hand grenades does since it's not instant and as such isn't a one-shot kind of weapon. Right now it's easy to solo a skulk or multiple skulks attacking an RT. Hell it's an easy way to get a double or triple kill. The skulks can't do anything but parasite me. Oh noes now I only have 90HP and less armor -- oh wait I still have my guns. *pistol snipe + LMG or SG them all* Hand grenades are rarely used for vent flushing in your average game, they are usually used to save RTs from a safe distance in the critical early game. Manhacks would fill the tactical role better, they can continue to deal damage as long as they persist. (best if limited on a per marine player basis, like you can have a max amount of them "alive" at any one time)
Plus they'd be quite scary for alien -- a nice little "Oh **** manhacks!" factor. Plus, now you have the ability to create some cool counters for the aliens. Babblers anyone?
Especially the "constructables", which in a way is very similar to the "weldables" we currently have, that I feel just don't get used enough. Repairing damaged territory could be an extremely challenging and fun team play experience. It would be a blast to see the use of constructables that are weldable! Gary's Mod anyone?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Personally I like the idea of the grapperling hook, if it had the following features:
-Required research (advanced armoury perhaps)
-DOES NOT ONE SHOT KILL (does no damage in fact, if an alien blocks it just fails).
-Is a one shot device, making essentially a marine placed ladder which can be chomped down.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would add a few other things to that as well.
- Give the grappling hook a arc to its flight path.
- Limit the distance the grappling hook can go.
- Change it from a grappling hook to a magnetic hook, possibly even only have specific map points or objects made of a certain material for it to be used on. Maybe even allow it to retrieve objects?
- Don't let it attach to Dynamic Infestation.
If you have read the series of adventure / action books by Matthew Reilly, where his lead character Scarecrow uses his mag-hook, you would have a very good idea of the fun that should be had with it.
Interesting. If you could show me a prototype demonstrating how it could be done well and in an easy modular design that makes it easy for mappers to use then I'll definitely give that a yes.
The first idea (observers) would be brilliant if a gun were made out of it.
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Here's a thought, if I was Kharaa, I would let the "observer" fly by so that the Marine thinks its safe to proceed, then *BAM*, hit em with the ambush!
Also, why not have the marine be a sitting duck while they are working the observer?
Depending on how well it is researched, produced, and skillfully used, this could possibly hurt the marines more than help. Or it might prove the Kharaa's undoing. Still, worth experimenting with at the very least to see the possibilities.
Also, why not have the marine be a sitting duck while they are working the observer?
Depending on how well it is researched, produced, and skillfully used, this could possibly hurt the marines more than help. Or it might prove the Kharaa's undoing. Still, worth experimenting with at the very least to see the possibilities.
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Yeah - it would be like a little remote control car, except more a magnetically levitating math-blaster throwback than an actual car. You could even give it a defined range, incorporating obstructions by drawing a line from the observer vehicle to the player using it, and adding a stiff multiplier for any distance the line traveled through brushes or models.
At least, that seems feasible, correct me if I'm wrong.
PS: There was also an idea to research something along the lines of an "AI Lab" - if you did that, you might be able to get the observer to navigate the level by script rather than needing a rine to pilot it, or if you guys are into that kind of thing, you could upgrade the bot to where it would navigate the level on its own, in realtime.
I especially like the mag hook, instead of the grappeling hook, but a few things need clearing up.
Firstly, with the mag hook, it wouldnt be able to clip on to DI, which could be a good thing as it might balance the game. But you could decide to either research mag, or the grapple, thus choosing one technology over the other, for some benefit; but not both.
Also once it has been used, it is still attached to the gun, so its a one use thing, until you have disconnected it at the other end, and reeled it back in. (This takes time...) A good idea you could incorporate into it is to have the level split by 2 ways. The long way around the gap, and the short way across the gap. To get the mag, or grapple, to stick to the opposite wall, you need to get the marines to go and build something on the other side! Then once its done they have a shortcut to the hive! It could easily be destroyed though, so it would need defending.
Secondly the fly by wire would indeed leave the marine controlling it incapacitated, so he would need to be protected by his allies. An AI controlled scout bot would be cool, but for gameplay purposes, unfeasable. Maybe a custom map idea though?
Yeah, the balancing would be done by the extra ability towers that the aliens get. For example, if the scout bot flew into the range of a spore turret it would get shot down, or maybe a tower that blocks its air intake and causes it to crash. Or even something that messes with the camera which the player is using to fly it.... a complete blackout, and you smash it into a wall!
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"Spore turret"? Do you mean Offense Chamber? Would the other "turret" be called a: Blocking air intake "turret"? Please if you forget what things are called just go and have a look at the <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns/static/comm_manual/basic/index.htm" target="_blank">Manual</a>, this makes you sound like you know what you are talking about...
<!--quoteo(post=1623986:date=Apr 30 2007, 01:30 PM:name=James1986)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(James1986 @ Apr 30 2007, 01:30 PM) [snapback]1623986[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
The main points previously could well unbalance the game as it stands, however, things like the grappling gun would be very useful for scenario maps. Personally I would like to see a lot more variety in types of gameply, however I understand a lot of people think this would ruin, or divide the game even more.....
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Yep!
<!--quoteo(post=1623986:date=Apr 30 2007, 01:30 PM:name=James1986)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(James1986 @ Apr 30 2007, 01:30 PM) [snapback]1623986[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
It makes sense that for something like a siege scenario, the aliens have hidden themselves somewhere way out of normal reach of the humans. And so, gaps must be bridged, ladders repaired, gangways raised, electrics replaced etc etc. to enable the marines to slowy climb their way to the hive.
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Siege = BAD! Just like Fight box maps in HL2DM are bad or any other maps that look like they were made in about 5mins. To be fair it is fun for the first few times and then you just wish the mapper would look at the walls and think, "oh I just realised I can't map at all, this looks rubbish, and it gets boring after like 5 goes". Also most of the cool feelings you get from the classic game are lost straight away in siege maps, you know exactly where the aliens/marines will come from, so you have no fear (of being spotted as a skulk or being chomped to death by a skulk falling down from the vents above you). As a marine you know where all the hives are so you don't have to worry about where the aliens might come from; this also only gives the commader about 3 options, 1) Heavy rush with sieges if that fails, 2) JP rush with sieges if that fails, 3)loose the game and fail to attack properly. This is one good reason for more hives, More Hives = more strategy. I just wish people would spend longer on designing a map for a game, planning it out, looking at it and thinking "would I play this map more than once?", testing it on people and what not; rather than just making a silly way of playing a game, giving it to some server admin and who stick it on to their server and forget about it, never really thinking more than "Ah heck this guy is clearly blind better give him a chance and leave the map on there, I have the space and no one will ever want to play it any way." I have probably pissed off loads of Siege mappers and I know I haven't played them all but please, please, please "WON'T YOU THINK OF THE CHILDREN..." that will look at those box rooms and dull repetitive textures and think "That’s how you map!" and then just go and make a massive box, put the hives on one side and the marines start on the other and a wall and a door (covered in a rock texture) in the middle and then release it to the world, making good mappers everywhere hang themselves shouting out "We have failed! Failed to pass on a decent mapping gene!"
<!--quoteo(post=1623986:date=Apr 30 2007, 01:30 PM:name=James1986)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(James1986 @ Apr 30 2007, 01:30 PM) [snapback]1623986[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
Personally, I think motion tracking should be fixed by NS2. It should only pick up aliens when they are moving, and even then, the commander, or marines dont have a clue what is about to come around the corner. So if they are still, and a bot flies around a corner the alien can simply drop onto it and munch it, gone! This would add to the atmosphere of the game. Imagine flying your bot about, and suddenly the screen goes static, or you see a pair of teeth flying towards the camera. You could even have it linked to a big screen back at central command so everyone can see it go down and start worrying themselves.
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I think the reason that no one is giving you reasons for their NO votes are because they are all just bad ideas! These are the reasons IMO:
A) As far as I'm aware motion tracking has been fixed, it remains for a few seconds on where you were last moving so unless you have got to a place where the Marine can't see you the chances are you will be shot if you stay still. Kinda like if you know someone has gone around a corner and then they stop and then you go around the corner, if they have stopped then they are still gonna be there, so you can still cap them in the head.
B) What is the point in grappling hooks when you have JPs? It would just ruin the game and look stupid! Even if Aliens get anty-grappling hook chambers it would still look stupid!
C) Onos traps? Go try and catch a Rhino or an Elephant in a space station or down a mine and tell me how much stuff you had to build to catch it... Just a stupid idea! And I would hate to see what a well designed map looked like after you had blocked off (cause that’s what you would have to do to catch an Onos) a whole hall way. BAD IDEA!
D) Fly by wire drones? What would be the point in the commander looking at the commander view? That’s what he's there for, don't take his job away from him. And then have you thought about how silly these would be when skulks realised they could stand on them, because you won't be able to design anything without it being able to be stood on by skulks, unless it goes through everything. SUPER SURFING SKULK! Just plain silly, you would have drones coming back to base with 4 skulks holding on to them and half your teams would be dead!
E) Marines are supposed to be going into an unknown environment; it's what makes the game fun!!!!! All the maps are supposed to be home to the Aliens, the Marines are supposed to be stepping on their turf, admittedly it wasn't the Kharaa's turf in the first place, but it is now. So you can't go giving the Marines extra stuff that just makes them be able to see large areas of the map without putting there necks on the line. It would get dull fast! And otherwise you would just have base campers flying drones and then sending out n00bs to get RTs until the commander is ready to cap a Hive. I mean once you have motion tracking with the mini map you can usually see most things that are coming towards you and where most aliens are, which normally takes away any fear factor that makes the game scary at first; this makes scenes because if you were that marine you wouldn’t know the place (the map) when you first stepped into it and by the time the commander had put up all the stuff you needed for motion tracking you would know most of the map quite well. I personally think the mini map needs a bit of work, they need to look more like a map/blue print and less like a “lets try and make this map look futuristic”, which at the moment in NS, I personally don’t think it does. The mini map just comes across as a map they have in our local Quasar (I think they are better know as Laser Quest, where you wear back packs and shoot “laser” guns at each other and bases.) Basically a map that people in the 80’s might have thought maps of futuristic cities might look like. It works, but it could be a lot better.
<!--quoteo(post=1623986:date=Apr 30 2007, 01:30 PM:name=James1986)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(James1986 @ Apr 30 2007, 01:30 PM) [snapback]1623986[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
and like X5 said, there are plenty of advantages coming in for the aliens at the moment, and not many for the marines....
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F) I think you got what the_x5 was trying to say very wrong...
<!--quoteo(post=1623217:date=Apr 26 2007, 12:09 PM:name=the_x5)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(the_x5 @ Apr 26 2007, 12:09 PM) [snapback]1623217[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
They are the ones who have to pit melee attacks against marines carrying guns. Not an easy feat.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He is talking about how skulks having to get close enough to bite the marines, where as the marines can stand far, far away and shoot them in the head with a pistol. This is why mobility is the Aliens advantage, and why the marines walk really slowly, which I personally think is stupidly slow, especially when walking backwards is half speed, and even more slooooooow after playing loads of UT2k4 and HL2DM; or even being a skulk for that matter.
G) Constructible objects have been brought up in other threads and put in a better ways. Frankly why do this when you have welders? Why would a commander drop part of a ladder, or bits of a ladder? How would the commander even know the size of the ladder, do the marines now get measuring tapes and devices that tell them what the current ladder is made out of?? “Sir! Sir! Can you drop me a Ultra-Sonic-Super-Nova-TSA indorsed-measuring tape for this ladder?” Commander:“No! The TSA stopped indorsing measuring tapes for ladders when they invented jet packs!” “Oh, Oh, Oh I want one of those!... (PAUSE) ...Oh No! I’m dead, gorge shot me while I was guessing the length of the ladder. He told me to stop trying to do his job and buy a welder...”
A good mapper should just make it possible for you to use things you find in the map to get to places. If we have physics boxes, creates and barrels then it should be possible to get into any of the vents or ends of ladders just by stacking these, did you not learn anything from Barney Calhoun <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> Anywhere else will be purposefully made to be too high to reach without jet packs. Also I believe there was a mention of gorge hiding out in vents and bile bombing a RT or a Marine Start. IT IS A GORGES RIGHT TO HIDE IN A VENT AND BUILD DCS TO LIVE OFF FOREVER! And frankly if you are a marine team who lets your marine start be bile bombed by a Gorge in a vent, then you are better off just going back to the ready room and crying until a new game starts, cause you have probably lost the game anyway.
All these ideas are pretty bad. Ok so you had good intentions but they need a lot of work and thought, and mentioning onos traps and siege maps was just asking for people to not really respond properly or just vote NO. I have a feeling you need to back to the game and understand it a bit better, maybe read some of the background stories that people have written, start with <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns/static/world/sanjii_1.html" target="_blank">Six Days in Sanjii</a>. Even try watching Aliens, gives a good idea of what the marines should be like. They are hard, they have big weapons, but they aren’t fast and they are not really used to being stuck down a vent and are better at taking out whole city than down a vent with a couple of hungry and extremely fast and agile Kharaa.
I’m off to bed, be thankful I stayed up to this ungodly hour to finish off explaining why onos traps are a bad idea. To be honest it was quite fun <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> Sorry if I sound like a moody bum, but just think a little before you say something. The chances are that you already know the answer.
<!--quoteo(post=1644391:date=Aug 18 2007, 12:35 AM:name=INKEDOUT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(INKEDOUT @ Aug 18 2007, 12:35 AM) [snapback]1644391[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->He is talking about how skulks <strike>having</strike> [have] to get close enough to bite the marines, where as the marines can stand far, far away and shoot them in the head with a pistol. This is why mobility is the Aliens advantage, and why [...] [some off-topic rant about why INKEDOUT thinks marines are slow <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> ]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Said quote is indeed a re-wording of my point there.
Some of your rantings are quite humorous INKEDOUT -- genuine "roffle" material. Not sure if that's what you meant to be going for but some of these are very quote-able. (and MSPaint-able!!!) <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->please "WON'T YOU THINK OF THE CHILDREN..." that will look at those box rooms and dull repetitive textures and think "That’s how you map!" and then just go and make a massive box, put the hives on one side and the marines start on the other and a wall and a door (covered in a rock texture) in the middle and then release it to the world, making good mappers everywhere hang themselves shouting out "We have failed! Failed to pass on a decent mapping gene!"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And then have you thought about how silly these would be when skulks realised they could stand on them, because you won't be able to design anything without it being able to be stood on by skulks, unless it goes through everything. SUPER SURFING SKULK! Just plain silly, you would have drones coming back to base with 4 skulks holding on to them and half your teams would be dead!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also I believe there was a mention of gorge hiding out in vents and bile bombing a RT or a Marine Start. IT IS A GORGES RIGHT TO HIDE IN A VENT AND BUILD DCS TO LIVE OFF FOREVER! <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/pudgy.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::gorge::" border="0" alt="pudgy.gif" /> <-- I have my rights!
(although to be fair it's also that little res hoarding gorge's right to die to my grenades where it camps... or to my FLAMETHOWER HOORAH!)
It turns the game into more of a spamfest than a tactical battle by reducing the ability of the players to outplay one another.
Siege maps in of the concept itself isn't bad at all. It can be fun and actually a far better training tool than combat ever was IMHO! It's just that there are pratically very few half-decently made siege maps. I'd agree that most are quite terrible indeed; they have vastly open spaces, dull texturing, and even worse architecture. (but then again so are many MvM combat maps)
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Oh yeah Siege maps would be good if they were well designed, like actually had more than just boxes for rooms and dull textures with poor lighting. I mean to be fair I imagine that fight boxes would be good if they were designed well. It's just so disappointing when you know what a good map looks like and then you play something poor, Hammer can make maps a million times better than Siege maps, Siege maps just come across as test maps. Like when a mapper is just trying to work out a map for game play and then goes on to make it look good with detail and custom textures and stuff. What makes Siege maps worse than a fight boxes though is you are often standing around waiting for the door to open having built most things you need and just end up looking around the room itself and soon realise (if you hadn't already) that it is just a box, where as at least in a fight box you don't have that much time to look at how poor the room is because most of them are so open you are bound to get shot at within seconds leaving you no option to admire the view, instead you just have to fight.
<!--quoteo(post=1644407:date=Aug 18 2007, 08:52 AM:name=the_x5)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(the_x5 @ Aug 18 2007, 08:52 AM) [snapback]1644407[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
Some of your rantings are quite humorous INKEDOUT -- genuine "roffle" material. Not sure if that's what you meant to be going for but some of these are very quote-able. (and MSPaint-able!!!) <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/pudgy.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::gorge::" border="0" alt="pudgy.gif" /> <-- I have my rights!
(although to be fair it's also that little res hoarding gorge's right to die to my grenades where it camps... or to my FLAMETHOWER HOORAH!)
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course I don't actually believe that "<i>good mappers everywhere hang themselves shouting out "We have failed! Failed to pass on a decent mapping gene!"</i>" whenever a bad map comes out, it's just more fun to have a dig at anything when humour is involved.
It is true however that you do have your right to chuck grenades into vents where a gorge parties are happening, but they have the right to use their anty-grenade-air-intake-blocking "turret" to block your grenade and your air intake (what ever that is, your mouth??) and then party "all night long!" to quote Lionel B. Richie (had to look that up, wonder what the B stands for? B*tchin'???) Can someone just make that as an MS Paint? Or in game as the most stupid useless chamber, the only way if should block grenades is by getting in the way, and it should only be allowed to be placed on textures with intakes (like fans in vents) <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />(Before anyone says or does anything, that was a joke! Not the MS paint bit. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> )
"Spore turret"? Do you mean Offense Chamber? Would the other "turret" be called a: Blocking air intake "turret"? Please if you forget what things are called just go and have a look at the Manual, this makes you sound like you know what you are talking about...
[/quote]
Dont be stupid. Theres no point picking at things that people will very well understand. Grow up. Have a gold star for your original turrent name...
[quote name='INKEDOUT' date='Aug 18 2007, 05:35 AM' post='1644391']
Oh yeah Siege maps would be good if they were well designed, like actually had more than just boxes for rooms and dull textures with poor lighting.
[/quote]
Seems like you finally understood what was going on. If you had happend to read my post word for word, rather than skim it, then you would have seen that I said [quote] It makes sense that for something like a siege scenario, the aliens have hidden themselves somewhere way out of normal reach of the humans. And so, gaps must be bridged, ladders repaired, gangways raised, electrics replaced etc etc. to enable the marines to slowy climb their way to the hive.[/quote] and not "I like siege maps, can we make them as crappy and ugly as they are today?"
The idea of the scenario itself could, and would, be much better implemented as its own game/map type so that the real mappers out there could actually embrace it, and make it the spinoff it so rightly deserves.
[quote name='Radix' date='Aug 18 2007, 05:30 PM' post='1644439']
TG played siege for awhile. The problem with it was that the games invariably devolved the gameplay into third hive vs max tech. Third hive abilities require absolutely no skill to use, and motion+jets+mass turret farms is fairly straightforward as well.
It turns the game into more of a spamfest than a tactical battle by reducing the ability of the players to outplay one another.
[/quote]
Only because there is no proper level design. Think of the siege maps that are popular in TFC. They work very well.
[quote name='INKEDOUT' date='Aug 18 2007, 05:35 AM' post='1644391']
A) As far as I'm aware motion tracking has been fixed, it remains for a few seconds on where you were last moving so unless you have got to a place where the Marine can't see you the chances are you will be shot if you stay still. Kinda like if you know someone has gone around a corner and then they stop and then you go around the corner, if they have stopped then they are still gonna be there, so you can still cap them in the head.
[/quote]
Fair point. Can the skulk 'walk' away undetected?
[quote name='INKEDOUT' date='Aug 18 2007, 05:35 AM' post='1644391']
B) What is the point in grappling hooks when you have JPs? It would just ruin the game and look stupid! Even if Aliens get anty-grappling hook chambers it would still look stupid!
[/quote]
Once again, I don't think you quite read the whole of my post.
[quote name='INKEDOUT' date='Aug 18 2007, 05:35 AM' post='1644391']
One thing i want to make clear is that i DONT want this to be a gun in the inventory. That would make it way too imbalanced and a stupid copy of the spiderman mod from CS.
[/quote]
So as you can see I have never intended the grappling cannon to be something carried about. It would only be useful to build it where a bridge or gangway had collapsed. As for the jet packs, sure they are reasonably cheap, but you have to research them first, and once you die you have to be given another...
This is a slightly more permanent solution for earlier in the game which will open up other areas of the map that would have had to be accessed the long way round. Marines dont need to get jetpacks to cross the gap, they can simply climb across. It is balanced by the fact that skulks can also come back across the wire, or can chew through it whilst a marine is crawling along. Bye bye marine...
[quote name='INKEDOUT' date='Aug 18 2007, 05:35 AM' post='1644391']
C) Onos traps? Go try and catch a Rhino or an Elephant in a space station or down a mine and tell me how much stuff you had to build to catch it... Just a stupid idea! And I would hate to see what a well designed map looked like after you had blocked off (cause that’s what you would have to do to catch an Onos) a whole hall way. BAD IDEA!
[/quote]
You dont have to block the hallway to trap an onos, I mean to trap in the sense of a deadly trap... an infa-red trip wire that releases a magnetic lock on a suspended 5 ton crate. The marines can have their HUD's adjusted to see the infa-red spectrum (or whatever frequecy would be chosen), and likewise the aliens can choose a sensory upgrade to allow them to see multispecturally (like in predator). Other traps could include fixing automatic doors to explode and close quick enough to chop the onos in half, or pressure sensors that activate the opening of an air lock when a certain weight limit or is reached. This would make certain areas of the map very important places to hold, and add to the overall strategy.
[quote name='INKEDOUT' date='Aug 18 2007, 05:35 AM' post='1644391']
D) Fly by wire drones? What would be the point in the commander looking at the commander view? That’s what he's there for, don't take his job away from him. And then have you thought about how silly these would be when skulks realised they could stand on them, because you won't be able to design anything without it being able to be stood on by skulks, unless it goes through everything. SUPER SURFING SKULK! Just plain silly, you would have drones coming back to base with 4 skulks holding on to them and half your teams would be dead!
[/quote]
Sounds cool. Congratulations, you just made the next KZ map craze!
Seriously though, firstly the scout drone doesnt give a 'birds eye' view, it gives a real time video camera relay to the user.
Secondly the scout drone wouldnt be able to hold the wieght of a skulk, gravity would just take over and smash it to the floor. There is physics involved in HL2 so dont worry yourself about how this would happen, its just natures way...
Thirdly, as I have already said, the user is incapacitated by using the flybywire, and thus open to attack. So once again it is balanced by the 'double edged sword'.
[quote name='INKEDOUT' date='Aug 18 2007, 05:35 AM' post='1644391']
E) Marines are supposed to be going into an unknown environment; it's what makes the game fun!!!!!
[/quote]
I couldn't agree more...so would you let your army walk into the unknown unprepared? A sensible commander would scout the area ahead with whatever he could before he sent his men in to die. A radar scan should only reveal signatures of units, not what they are...
[quote name='INKEDOUT' date='Aug 18 2007, 05:35 AM' post='1644391']
F) I think you got what the_x5 was trying to say very wrong...
QUOTE(the_x5 @ Apr 26 2007, 12:09 PM)
They are the ones who have to pit melee attacks against marines carrying guns. Not an easy feat.
He is talking about how skulks having to get close enough to bite the marines, where as the marines can stand far, far away and shoot them in the head with a pistol.
[/quote]
Im not American so don't take me for an idiot. I was refering to a different post.
[quote name='INKEDOUT' date='Aug 18 2007, 05:35 AM' post='1644391']
G) Constructible objects have been brought up in other threads and put in a better ways. Frankly why do this when you have welders? Why would a commander drop part of a ladder, or bits of a ladder? How would the commander even know the size of the ladder, do the marines now get measuring tapes and devices that tell them what the current ladder is made out of?? “Sir! Sir! Can you drop me a Ultra-Sonic-Super-Nova-TSA indorsed-measuring tape for this ladder?” Commander:“No! The TSA stopped indorsing measuring tapes for ladders when they invented jet packs!” “Oh, Oh, Oh I want one of those!... (PAUSE) ...Oh No! I’m dead, gorge shot me while I was guessing the length of the ladder. He told me to stop trying to do his job and buy a welder...”
[/quote]
Ok so I've found a damaged pannel, just pop out my welder and hey presto its fixed, great. Next I come across a broken computer terminal which needs a new board in it. Wikkid cool, my welder which spurts out heat can magically repair it, no need to find the new board, its fixed! Finally I find my way to an access tunnel leading straight up. Theres a broken ladder lying about but some rungs are missing! No problem, I'll just use my welder to scrape some metal together, and pin some new rungs on, then I'll melt it to the wall and have plenty of time to wait about whilst it cools down!
Thats some mega all inclusive welder! Must have been made in Switzerland!
I don't think so... Constructables are constructables, not objects that can be welded. They must have parts scavenged for them, and rebuilt. That is the whole fun of it. Weldables can be something completely different, and still be included in the game.
[quote name='INKEDOUT' date='Aug 18 2007, 05:35 AM' post='1644391']
A good mapper should just make it possible for you to use things you find in the map to get to places. If we have physics boxes, creates and barrels then it should be possible to get into any of the vents or ends of ladders just by stacking these, did you not learn anything from Barney Calhoun
[/quote]
What would Barney do if the access tunnel was 300ft high...
Another thought that just occured to me, what about magnetic boots. Dropped by the com, switched on by the marine, he could then walk slowly up walls, and his vision would completely change much like the aliens in view point in Alien vs Predator.
I hope I have addressed everybodies points. Keep the criticism coming, nothing will change if its not all thought through...
I have tried to edit them, I can't see why its not working. The code is fine <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
[/quote]
<b><u>He's right. The Quotes are F***ED!</u></b>
[quote name='James1986' date='Aug 18 2007, 07:36 PM' post='1644448']
Dont be stupid. Theres no point picking at things that people will very well understand. Grow up. Have a gold star for your original turrent name...
Seems like you finally understood what was going on. If you had happend to read my post word for word, rather than skim it, then you would have seen that I said and not "I like siege maps, can we make them as crappy and ugly as they are today?"
[/quote]
I did read it word for word, that’s why I commented on how poor the ides were. Don’t worry, we all have bad days.
Thanks for the gold star, hope you use the name for your up and coming MOD/game.
[quote name='James1986' date='Aug 18 2007, 07:36 PM' post='1644448']
Fair point. Can the skulk 'walk' away undetected?
[/quote]
No, not as far as I am aware, that’s why they call it “Motion Tracking”. If you want to get away from a marine with motion tracking you have to run as fast as you can into a vent and then stop, if you chose a good place, high enough away from the ground, he won’t be able to chuck grenades into the vent, and if you are deep enough in the vent he won’t be able to shoot at you and you can wait (not moving) until he has gone by and then attack him from behind.
[quote name='James1986' date='Aug 18 2007, 07:36 PM' post='1644448']
Once again, I don't think you quite read the whole of my post.
So as you can see I have never intended the grappling cannon to be something carried about. It would only be useful to build it where a bridge or gangway had collapsed. As for the jet packs, sure they are reasonably cheap, but you have to research them first, and once you die you have to be given another...
This is a slightly more permanent solution for earlier in the game which will open up other areas of the map that would have had to be accessed the long way round. Marines dont need to get jetpacks to cross the gap, they can simply climb across. It is balanced by the fact that skulks can also come back across the wire, or can chew through it whilst a marine is crawling along. Bye bye marine...
[/quote]
My point exactly, why have a grappling hook turret when it could be taken down by skulks chewing it? Surely this would involve building a Turret Factory, Sentry Turrets to defend the grappling hook from being bitten while marines climb across, that is if the Sentry Turrets will fire far enough, and a lot of luck. And then, finally, hope that your JPs aren’t ready before you get to the other side. Also who is going to design a map where you can only get to a hive by going across a few wires? I can’t see it and I can’t see many people wanting to be on the Marines team on a map where you have to use grappling turrets to get to anywhere important. All comments about hives/areas being blocked by things and the marines having to do a set thing to get across it generally come back with criticism, commanders don’t generally like being trapped into one route to attack a hive. That’s why the most NS maps have 2 entrances to hives. This is also why no one would use a wire to get across a trench, cause all clever mappers would put in other routes to get to the hive and then commanders would never use the trench route until they had JPs and PGs.
[quote name='James1986' date='Aug 18 2007, 07:36 PM' post='1644448']
You dont have to block the hallway to trap an onos, I mean to trap in the sense of a deadly trap... an infa-red trip wire that releases a magnetic lock on a suspended 5 ton crate. The marines can have their HUD's adjusted to see the infa-red spectrum (or whatever frequecy would be chosen), and likewise the aliens can choose a sensory upgrade to allow them to see multispecturally (like in predator). Other traps could include fixing automatic doors to explode and close quick enough to chop the onos in half, or pressure sensors that activate the opening of an air lock when a certain weight limit or is reached. This would make certain areas of the map very important places to hold, and add to the overall strategy.
[/quote]
Are mines not good enough for this?? But in your defence at least it’s not a bear trap idea or a hole in the floor and you are thinking along the lines of the current game, which is good. But generally if you wanted to make an Onos trap, note the word trap there (• <i>noun 1 a device or enclosure designed to catch and retain animals. 2 an unpleasant situation from which it is hard to escape. 3 a trick causing someone to act contrary to their interests or intentions. 4 a container or device used to collect a specified thing. 5 a curve in the waste pipe from a bath, basin, or toilet that is always full of liquid to prevent the upward passage of gases. 6 a bunker or other hollow on a golf course. 7 the compartment from which a greyhound is released at the start of a race. 8 a device for hurling an object such as a clay pigeon into the air. 9 chiefly historical a light, two-wheeled carriage pulled by a horse or pony. informal a person’s mouth.
• verb (trapped, trapping) 1 catch or hold in or as in a trap. 2 trick into doing something.
— ORIGIN Old English; related to Latin trappa.</i>), you would need a huge cage/box or a large snare with an extremely strong wire and tie, which is how you catch a rhino or an elephant, this would block up a hallway.
Also, mappers could do a lot of these things now, and just make marines uses welders or buttons to turn them on.
[quote name='James1986' date='Aug 18 2007, 07:36 PM' post='1644448']
Seriously though, firstly the scout drone doesnt give a 'birds eye' view, it gives a real time video camera relay to the user.
[/quote]
I never said birds eye view? It would still detract from the commanders role.
[quote name='James1986' date='Aug 18 2007, 07:36 PM' post='1644448']
Secondly the scout drone wouldnt be able to hold the wieght of a skulk, gravity would just take over and smash it to the floor. There is physics involved in HL2 so dont worry yourself about how this would happen, its just natures way...
[/quote]
So a skulk doesn’t even have to bite the drone, just jump on it, sounds like a waste of res to me.
[quote name='James1986' date='Aug 18 2007, 07:36 PM' post='1644448']
Thirdly, as I have already said, the user is incapacitated by using the flybywire, and thus open to attack. So once again it is balanced by the 'double edged sword'.
[/quote]
Yes which is why I said people would just camp in base, flying drones around, then go out and get eaten any way, because aliens don’t stay still after you have looked at them with your drone. That is if the drones haven’t been taken out by jumping skulks landing on them at the front of your base. And while all this is going on the aliens would just be going out and taking all the hives, and after the first game no one would use drones. Except for finding things in vents, that could easily be done by a Marine with a JP and a gun (Marines with JP and any gun = 1000 times better than a drone).
My question is, why would you think it is a good idea for Marines to have drones at the start of the game, when in most situations the marines are in an advantage at the start of the game, they have guns that can shoot things far away, they can be healed by dropping med packs and have ammo given to them? None of these the aliens get straight away. All the Kharaas abilities come when they build structures that cost 10 res each. And even then it is not as instant as a med pack.
[quote name='James1986' date='Aug 18 2007, 07:36 PM' post='1644448']
I couldn't agree more...so would you let your army walk into the unknown unprepared? A sensible commander would scout the area ahead with whatever he could before he sent his men in to die. A radar scan should only reveal signatures of units, not what they are...
[/quote]
Admittedly if this was today’s modern army then yes it would make scenes to have all kinds of robots and gadgets to find the enemy with. But today’s army has very few things in common with the TSA (other than a commander, weapons and armour), NS and NS2 won’t have a lot of things that a modern army has in it. For example, armies today have things like sectaries, cleaners, chefs, engineers and guys who paint the tanks to keep them looking pretty and camouflaged. NS and NS don’t need any of this because it would just make the game less fun. I would not like to fly a drone around a level looking for a skulk just to have him jump on my drone. It would be stupid and pointless for both teams, the marines would just be flying them around knowing they could do nothing with them when they found something, and the aliens would soon get fed up with the silly drones flying past them and having to eat them or jump on them to get rid of them.
[quote name='James1986' date='Aug 18 2007, 07:36 PM' post='1644448']
Im not American so don't take me for an idiot. I was refering to a different post.
[/quote]
<b>No need to be racist! Americans aren’t idiots. Racists are! **Chucks a book of genetics at James1986** </b>
I believe that is a breach of the boards rules and you should really be reported.
Which post were you referring to?
[quote name='James1986' date='Aug 18 2007, 07:36 PM' post='1644448']
Ok so I've found a damaged pannel, just pop out my welder and hey presto its fixed, great. Next I come across a broken computer terminal which needs a new board in it. Wikkid cool, my welder which spurts out heat can magically repair it, no need to find the new board, its fixed! Finally I find my way to an access tunnel leading straight up. Theres a broken ladder lying about but some rungs are missing! No problem, I'll just use my welder to scrape some metal together, and pin some new rungs on, then I'll melt it to the wall and have plenty of time to wait about whilst it cools down!
Thats some mega all inclusive welder! Must have been made in Switzerland!
[/quote]
Who said a Marines welder is the same as what we think of a welder is; I always assumed a TSA welder could do way more than weld. I always thought of it as a device that probably used nano-technology to fix objects. I mean it can fix everything so far, even plastic and fabric that might be used in armour or various structures. And things change over the years, names for things sometimes remain the same, but the actual object changes beyond recognition.
[quote name='James1986' date='Aug 18 2007, 07:36 PM' post='1644448']
I don't think so... Constructables are constructables, not objects that can be welded. They must have parts scavenged for them, and rebuilt. That is the whole fun of it.
What would Barney do if the access tunnel was 300ft high...
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Use a JP, if he was playing NS or NS2 that is. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> The reasons some vents are so hard to get to at first is so a mapper can decided where and how and (even to some degree) when a player will be able to get to another point in the map. It is a very important part of a mappers repertoire, to be able to control access to areas of the map and to know where and how a player could get to these places. So a mapper could put a group of boxes near a low vent, which is like saying “use these to get up there” but then put another vent really high up, knowing that all the marine players won’t be able to use it till they get JPs. This allows the mapper to stop marine players from going to in vents that they might not be able to get out of again or lead quickly to a hive, or even might be a very useful route for weak skulks to use as a run to get back to the hive for healing after an attack on marines.
Also you have completely changed your idea of what constructibles are:
[quote name='James1986' date='Apr 26 2007, 10:00 AM' post='1623201']
With this Im thinking about destroyed environments, such as ladders that have rusted or broken by DI, needing to be replaced. A simple shout to the Comm, he drops, you build, voila! Extra acces! Maybe there could be some general shapes the commander could make with the nanites, which the marines can use to create their own contraptions; like a basic garrys mod?
[/quote]
Where as now it is:
[quote name='James1986' date='Aug 18 2007, 07:36 PM' post='1644448']
Constructables are constructables, not objects that can be welded. They must have parts scavenged for them, and rebuilt. That is the whole fun of it.
[/quote]
So what is your idea? Does the commander drop parts or does the player find parts?
[quote name='James1986' date='Aug 18 2007, 07:36 PM' post='1644448']
Another thought that just occured to me, what about magnetic boots. Dropped by the com, switched on by the marine, he could then walk slowly up walls, and his vision would completely change much like the aliens in view point in Alien vs Predator.
[/quote]
Why don’t the marines also get handheld Nukes, Gung Guns and Super-Mega-Mega-Ultra-Fantastic-Wicked-Fun-So-Big-It-Fills-Hallways-And-Is-Ten-Times-Bigger-Than-An-Onos-Mega-Ultra-Wicked-“You’re Granny Would Love This With Toast”-Armour as well?!1!! YEAH?!
Ok... Maybe as an add on to heavy armour, but I think it would look so stupid that it would just have everyone laughing at anyone with heavy armour as they walk slowly up a wall, just to reach a vent and then probably fall down again.
[quote name='James1986' date='Aug 18 2007, 07:36 PM' post='1644448']
I hope I have addressed everybodies points.
[/quote]
Nope... Give me a proper list, well thought out, based on current game play and timing and then how the aliens might stand up to these ideas. Don’t just say the aliens will get to bite all of these ideas to stop them, because that is like saying, the marines can just shoot with a pistol the onos.
Basically I want to see this list answered.
A) Why do you think it is so important for the Marines to get into places where currently Aliens can only reach, early on in the game?
B) How often can you see a grappling turret being used, other than once on maps with ravines to get across a ravine before Marines get JPs and PGs?
C) Explain your ideas for constructibles? Are pieces dropped (how much res would this cost)? Are bits found? How are these pieces picked up? Can random objects be used in place of the bottom of a ladder (since this is the example we are using), could I “build” (since your current idea doesn’t involve the welder) a chair to the bottom of a ladder? To what extent is the commander needed to achieve the goals of the marines constructing these objects? Why can’t this be done using a welder? Can you give some other examples as to what might need constructing in game? (Don’t use garrys mod as an example; some of us haven’t bothered playing it)
D) What are the details of the “Fly by wire scout” in your opinion, based on the current Marine Equipment list found in the NS manual? (Include notes as to how it works in game) Include where it would be found in the current tech tree.
E) What are the details of the “Grappling gun” in your opinion, based on the current Marine Equipment list found in the NS manual? (Include notes as to how it works in game) Include where it would be found in the current tech tree.
The only reason I ask these questions, is because I don’t think you have actually thought deeply about where your ideas might fit into the current game. Or even how a mapper or a commander would actually use them, or for that matter, if they would actually want to.
[quote name='James1986' date='Aug 18 2007, 07:36 PM' post='1644448']
Keep the criticism coming, nothing will change if its not all thought through...
[/quote]
Good Point.
James1986, I kind of like your idea of something physics based that could destroy and onos provided it takes a lot of teamwork, placement, and timing to pull off correctly. It would be a fanstasticly intriguing way to reinforce that the individual, ramboing player is less than the might of the team.
--and come to think of it: perhaps the Aliens could have something like this too!
<!--QuoteBegin-James1986+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(James1986)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Im not American so don't take me for an idiot. I was refering to a different post.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->wtf... Hey, I am American and I'm certainly not an idiot.
We have no idea how NS2 will play right now, none at all. If anything, it will be like nothing we have ever played, which I am extrapolating from remembering reading "If NS1 was the two meeting each other, NS2 will be the war that follows" - I am paraphrasing from memories, so please don't sue me if I didn't get the quote exactly.
My point being, his ideas are still valid until the Devs decide otherwise. I understand you would want to test the ideas against known quantities, but until we know something of the gameplay of NS2, we are very much able to brain storm just about anything we want for NS2. Seeing as we have been shown some of the art direction, I would think that we would try to base any ideas we have off of that, if you absolutely must have a crucible or axom's razor (spelling is probably off there).
Basicly, IMHO, I would say that it would be fun to shimy or zip along a cord I placed there with a grappling or mag. Use the place like it was set in space with mag boots? Awesome!
IMHO, it would be fun as a Commander to send out bots, scouting or whatever. Heck, even if its a near pointless hologram I would still like it as a Commander.
IMHO, best of all is the concept of Constructables, using nanites to make repairs and enhancements to the marines' enviroment. I would love it if the Kharaa would do this too, but instead of repairing, turn the enviroment into a more "jungle" like homeland. For both sides, having this would be ever so sweet. We already do this to a small degree with bases and chambers, why not get the map more involved?
I am confused by all the ridicule of the ideas Inkedout, as I believe the corner stone of your arguments is based on the experience of playing NS1, thus it is a house of cards - easily pushed over.
We have no idea how NS2 will play right now, none at all. If anything, it will be like nothing we have ever played, which I am extrapolating from remembering reading "If NS1 was the two meeting each other, NS2 will be the war that follows" - I am paraphrasing from memories, so please don't sue me if I didn't get the quote exactly.
My point being, his ideas are still valid until the Devs decide otherwise. I understand you would want to test the ideas against known quantities, but until we know something of the gameplay of NS2, we are very much able to brain storm just about anything we want for NS2. Seeing as we have been shown some of the art direction, I would think that we would try to base any ideas we have off of that, if you absolutely must have a crucible or axom's razor (spelling is probably off there).
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It is true that we have no idea what NS2 will play like, but lets be honest, nobody wants to see it change so much that it becomes unrecognisable. And so since all we have to base any of our ideas on is NS1 and the current back story, I believe it would just be stupid to implement these ideas in the way James1986 had originally described them. However, some developments from other people and James1986's own rethinking of the ideas have more promise.
Also, until the developers say yes or no to these ideas I can keep saying I don't like them until something comes to the table I do like.
<!--quoteo(post=1644633:date=Aug 20 2007, 01:32 AM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Aug 20 2007, 01:32 AM) [snapback]1644633[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
Basicly, IMHO, I would say that it would be fun to shimy or zip along a cord I placed there with a grappling or mag.
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I could see this being built into a map as part of the map, but I really, really, really can't see it as a turret. Basically because you would hardly ever use a Grappling Turret. Maybe once on a map, or if every mapper put ditches/trenches on their map then maybe you would get to use it once on every map.
<!--quoteo(post=1644633:date=Aug 20 2007, 01:32 AM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Aug 20 2007, 01:32 AM) [snapback]1644633[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
Use the place like it was set in space with mag boots? Awesome!
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Do you mean outside a ship/space station or in low gravity or something? If so then maybe, if it is done well. But if you don’t then this is my answer:
It would just be silly, I don't want to see NS2 as a load of silly gadgets. Wall walking is for skulks. Not marines.
<!--quoteo(post=1644633:date=Aug 20 2007, 01:32 AM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Aug 20 2007, 01:32 AM) [snapback]1644633[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
IMHO, it would be fun as a Commander to send out bots, scouting or whatever. Heck, even if its a near pointless hologram I would still like it as a Commander.
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I agree, as a commander it would be good, if it was fully automated. Maybe a little screen opens up on your commander view, which allows you to see from the camera. Then maybe all you have to do is set a waypoint and the thing finds a route there, I imagine this would work in the same way as bots work, they follow routes set out by game designers or mappers. This would be quite a nice addition to the commanders current weaponry, and is completely feasible. I imagine the commander maybe getting one or two to start with, which can be used straight away, then a structure must be built to create more. This would probably come after an Observatory and maybe an Arms lab.
But as a marine it would suck, could you imagine being told by commander just to sit there and fly a drone or drive a little car around just looking at things until something jumps on it or you get eaten? Not much fun at all! Maybe if the drones had some way of defending themselves, then maybe, but only maybe (I can still picture it as a pretty useless exercise for marines, maybe when the game gets as big as a planet or something <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />). Otherwise I can picture it as being the most boring and useless thing to do in game.
<!--quoteo(post=1644633:date=Aug 20 2007, 01:32 AM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Aug 20 2007, 01:32 AM) [snapback]1644633[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
IMHO, best of all is the concept of Constructables, using nanites to make repairs and enhancements to the marines' enviroment. I would love it if the Kharaa would do this too, but instead of repairing, turn the enviroment into a more "jungle" like homeland. For both sides, having this would be ever so sweet. We already do this to a small degree with bases and chambers, why not get the map more involved?
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Yes but clearly this is part of what the welder does already, it doesn't just weld stuff, it fixes everything. So based on what we know about the welder already we can assume that in its next variation we would get more control over what it fixes. But what I want to know from James1986 is: Does he picture the commander dropping things that the marines have to turn into ladders or stairs or doorways or whatever (like he suggested in his first idea); or weld found objects together, which are already on the map?
I’m all for found objects being fixed back together. Say if you had half a ladder and then the other half laying around on the floor next to it then you could use a grabbing device to pick it up and another marine could weld it back into place. This would improve teamwork and allow mappers more control over where and when marines could get access to areas. That would be good! I Vote YES for this! What I don’t want to see is the commander dropping random objects that the marines turn into a ladder or a door way, as James1986 implied in his first post.
<!--quoteo(post=1623201:date=Apr 26 2007, 10:00 AM:name=James1986)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(James1986 @ Apr 26 2007, 10:00 AM) [snapback]1623201[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
Constuctables.
With this Im thinking about destroyed environments, such as ladders that have rusted or broken by DI, needing to be replaced. A simple shout to the Comm, he drops, you build, voila! Extra acces! Maybe there could be some general shapes the commander could make with the nanites, which the marines can use to create their own contraptions; like a basic garrys mod?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This would be bad and could easily be exploited to allow the marines to build themselves into vents which lead directly to hives or might even be able to do really stupid things like using multiple “general shapes” that they could use to block doorways and whole areas of the map.