Growing the NS female player base
the_x5
the Xzianthian Join Date: 2004-03-02 Member: 27041Members, Constellation
the Xzianthian Join Date: 2004-03-02 Member: 27041Members, Constellation
There aren't many female NS players sadly. They do exist, but are rare.
Of the current "regular NS player" women I know of playing NS currently:
Vixen
<BAD> Southern Girl
Katie
As I said not many, but they are around. In fact, I'd say we have more than we used to. (referencing 2.01 mostly)
So what I want this thread to be about is brainstorming collectively ways to increase our appeal to our female audience. Just as a warning, let's use caution against the stupid stereotypes.
I see there could be an in-game experience issue with the male players being jerks, that is out of development control but we should talk about that in this thread too.
But as for development, how about paying attention to design elements. For example, what about taking a hint from HL2 Deathmatch in where you can choose your character's appearance and there are female models. (and different races too) I don't see why we couldn't do this. It adds a nice personal touch, better than any spray and even gives better variety in the models you see in the game. Better for immersion too. I don't know a single retail RPG or MMORPG out there that doesn't let you choose your character's gender and customize to some degree. Besides it looks stupid seeing the same cookie-cutter staple male marine in every game. That's understandable for a free mod I suppose, but in a professional game? UNACCEPTABLE!
Discuss...
<img src="http://xzianthia.net/images/female_marine.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
<u>Art</u>: <i>Nova</i> by Jason Chan (Evil Gerbil King)
PS: If you know of a lady who plays NS please invite her to give feedback on this thread.
Of the current "regular NS player" women I know of playing NS currently:
Vixen
<BAD> Southern Girl
Katie
As I said not many, but they are around. In fact, I'd say we have more than we used to. (referencing 2.01 mostly)
So what I want this thread to be about is brainstorming collectively ways to increase our appeal to our female audience. Just as a warning, let's use caution against the stupid stereotypes.
I see there could be an in-game experience issue with the male players being jerks, that is out of development control but we should talk about that in this thread too.
But as for development, how about paying attention to design elements. For example, what about taking a hint from HL2 Deathmatch in where you can choose your character's appearance and there are female models. (and different races too) I don't see why we couldn't do this. It adds a nice personal touch, better than any spray and even gives better variety in the models you see in the game. Better for immersion too. I don't know a single retail RPG or MMORPG out there that doesn't let you choose your character's gender and customize to some degree. Besides it looks stupid seeing the same cookie-cutter staple male marine in every game. That's understandable for a free mod I suppose, but in a professional game? UNACCEPTABLE!
Discuss...
<img src="http://xzianthia.net/images/female_marine.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
<u>Art</u>: <i>Nova</i> by Jason Chan (Evil Gerbil King)
PS: If you know of a lady who plays NS please invite her to give feedback on this thread.
Comments
On a more serious note, I think a FPS/RTS hybrid is always going to appeal more to males than females. Generally speaking, the two genders have different preferences, and that's nothing you can change.
And what's wrong with talking about dealing with the jerk-like social immaturity I've seen from several male players in this community towards females? Hell, those ladies whose alias names I mentioned above ONLY play on server where there is good admin presence.
A diverse community will be healthier. Diversity comes in many forms. For example we have nationality diversity, idealogical diversity on major world issues, idealogical diversity on in-game and development issues, etc. We don't have much gender diversity to the point where if the numbers are right we are at least ten times off from the XBox Live population and even further from the WoW gender diversity.
Ok Underwhelmed, but what's wrong with giving players options while expanding the artistic variety of the game?
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Nothing, but I highly doubt if allowing players to select a female model would attract any more females. How many girls do you think will go "I'll play this game because I can select a female avatar!"? Games such as UT have female models, yet their percentage of female players isn't noticeably larger.
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And what's wrong with talking about dealing with the jerk-like social immaturity I've seen from several male players in this community towards females? Hell, those ladies whose alias names I mentioned above ONLY play on server where there is good admin presence.
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You must be new to the internets. Every game has its share of adolescent males vying for virtual female attention. Some games attract a larger percentage of teenage males than others. No amount of game design is going to prevent them from attempting to hit on girls. This isn't a problem limited to NS, it's a problem in the online community in general.
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A diverse community will be healthier. Diversity comes in many forms. For example we have nationality diversity, idealogical diversity on major world issues, idealogical diversity on in-game and development issues, etc. We don't have much gender diversity to the point where if the numbers are right we are at least ten times off from the XBox Live population and even further from the WoW gender diversity.
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I'll bite - why is diversity in NS good?
The best way would probably be increasing the social aspects of the game. (Based on actual studies.) However, there is already voice communication and a ready room. In fact, NS is one of the more social games I've played.
However, since the NS player base isn't growing AT ALL, I think it's a lost cause.
Vanguard: Saga of Heroes did something like this with diplomacy vs adventuring, but it was extremely underdeveloped like every other part of the game.
Do girls play NS cause of the social aspect of the game? Not in her case, she just like killing stuff. She hardly read the chat / listen to voicecomm anyway. Maybe cause she's not that good in english, i don't know. She has an headset, but never use her mic. I've only seen her type one word: welder. Nothing else.
I asked her about this; she doesn't mind to play using a male character model, but would use a female one if it's available.
Few more girls playing NS; YO|princess, Lady Thypari (not sure about spelling)
Fair enough, but it isn't that hard to make a model and skin it. In fact, I know some people here who would do a really nice job for free just because it's fun. Also, I think <i>if</i> it was available, women would choose it. At least the women who play NS I talked to were like sure I'd use it if there was the option. And then there's just the aesthetic appeal of having various different models instead of the current system of magically replicating identical marines. Heck let us customize, that's a fun addition actually.
<!--quoteo(post=1626606:date=May 14 2007, 12:47 AM:name=Underwhelmed)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Underwhelmed @ May 14 2007, 12:47 AM) [snapback]1626606[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'll bite - why is diversity in NS good?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Um same reason diversity is good in general? It involves recognising and respecting differences and brings strength to the unity of a community by providing new background for new perspectives? Why would diversity be bad? If nothing else take gaming clans as a simple example. Every clan that had a few women in it would grow larger and last longer. Some of this could be that people who at attracted to the opposite sex like socializing with them. I think it has more to do with that fact that women usually think differently than men and that adds perspective to the game and the online friendships.
<!--quoteo(post=1626627:date=May 14 2007, 03:35 AM:name=Droggog)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Droggog @ May 14 2007, 03:35 AM) [snapback]1626627[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can't see any drawbacks to adding a human female player model to NS2. But is it worth it? I dunno. Probably, given the little extra work it would require. It would add some variety, and i don't think there's an issue concerning harrassement. Minas (my wife), is playing NS too. Never had a problem with that.
Do girls play NS cause of the social aspect of the game? Not in her case, she just like killing stuff. She hardly read the chat / listen to voicecomm anyway. Maybe cause she's not that good in english, i don't know. She has an headset, but never use her mic. I've only seen her type one word: welder. Nothing else.
I asked her about this; she doesn't mind to play using a male character model, but would use a female one if it's available.
Few more girls playing NS; YO|princess, Lady Thypari (not sure about spelling)
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Thank you for your feedback and her feedback. Every individual is different, and little ways people can customize and represent themselves I can't see as being bad. In fact it could be fun.
Perhaps here's the harder question: Female player models, yeah sure it's easy and let's implement it; <i>BUT</i> what <i>would</i> attract the female population to NS? Cute gorges? Something to make NS more socially interactive like emotes? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />
In NS, you kill things and maybe even polish your mettle. At the very worst, you'll get slaughtered over and over by people you don't know. If you introduce your fantasy element and let your imagination run, it may be too late when you catch yourself doing some weird nonsense like raising unicorns or, worse yet, sending money to some person who you arbitrarily queened in your mind.
There's nothing wrong with offering choices of player models. There is very likely everything wrong with the intentions behind the idea.
If the option to use a female model was there, I'd probably use it but not necessarily... I don't generally bother picking a female model for HL2 mods where that's possible - I'm there to play the game <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
I don't really know if there's anything that can be done to suddenly get females playing NS en masse. Some people just prefer different types of games - unfortunately it seems that most girls don't go in for the whole FPS style game.
<a href="http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=162953" target="_blank">Steam are bringing in a 'Groups' system</a> which also sorts people by skill (I have no idea how it'll work, for which games, etc). I doubt if this will be introduced to HL mods and such but maybe it'll be compatible with NS2. Perhaps this sort of method can be used to recommend NS2 to large groups of people, of which girls might be a part of.
Edit: as for cute gorges and emoticons... urg. I'd rather play a good, scary looking sci fi NS game than 'NS meets My Little Pony'. Not all girls are so girlie that pink wispy trails follow them around all day and we dont all sneeze out puppies and flowers instead of snot.
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*Blinks*
*Tries to picture happy girly friendly prin*
*Fails*
*Blinks again*
- Shockwave <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
I don't think female player models would actively encourage female gamers to take up NS at all, especially as Ahnteis says, if theyre 'sexualised'. I'd be quite offended to see something like that picture above in NS, to be honest... unless, of course, you're going to re-make the male model into something a girl can drool over too.
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NS:Baywatch anyone?
The issue is not that NS isn't "girly" enough or doesn't have enough features that women will like (as if you could come up with something that's going to cater for 51% of the population).
The problem is that video gaming is extremely male-dominated and, as with many similar enviroments, can often be hostile to women. The frequent use over-sexualised, unnescessarily revealingly attired women (such as the example above) in games is objectifying and often demeaning, and the assumption that women are somehow supposed to be attracted to gaming by this insulting.
The best way to expand the female player-base is to stop assuming that women are so different that they need a gameplay mechanic all of their own and start examining how they are treated by the games they play and the gaming community.
This seems like an attempt for people to put words in my mouth. (in the last few posts)
To you Sarisel, that's not what I was trying get at. I just wanted to see if there was anything that could be done to bring NS from is current almost entirely male population. Granted most FPS games are mostly played by males, I was making a note that in NS it is even less than say... Halo2 for example, and I was wondering if we could discuss what would make that better or if there's even something wrong with that... I somewhat feel there is I guess.
And FFS where did I say I wanted oversexualized female player models? What the hell people... I don't seem to see that anywhere. I just said we should have them as well as perhaps other ways to customize the appearance of your character. That's not a bad thing, is it?
<!--QuoteBegin-princess+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(princess)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->unless, of course, you're going to re-make the male model into something a girl can drool over too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok sure, why the hell not. Let's make them look like Spartans then. I'm not that worried about it.
The picture was just the only decent space marine looking female I came across. It's actually from the Blizzard fan art area and for some odd reason the fact that I think it is supposed to be for Starcraft which was an inspiration for NS which made me think of this idea that was bugging me and thus create the thread. And so I posted the image with it.
I agree that women shouldn't have a seperate experience. That wouldn't be equality then would it? Wasn't this exact issue brought up as an example in GI Jane? (the part about her wanting to be treated the same as all the other guys)
<!--QuoteBegin-Insane+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Insane)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The best way to expand the female player-base is to stop assuming that women are so different that they need a gameplay mechanic all of their own and start examining how they are treated by the games they play and the gaming community.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you are right. Ok, now what?
Let me summarize before people start misinterpreting me again.
1. Allow for the player to choose/customize their models (different genders, different races, slightly different looking armor, whatever) Easy to do, stupid not to have variety.
2. How can we make NS a better experience for our female playerbase? (stop over-reading into that and snapping at me over crap I never said, damnit)
<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/mad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":angry:" border="0" alt="mad-fix.gif" />
So, once again, it comes down to the question of: why bother in the first place? Why try to draw more of the female gender into this game?
<!--quoteo(post=1626638:date=May 14 2007, 06:22 AM:name=the_x5)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(the_x5 @ May 14 2007, 06:22 AM) [snapback]1626638[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Um same reason diversity is good in general? It involves recognising and respecting differences and brings strength to the unity of a community by providing new background for new perspectives? Why would diversity be bad? If nothing else take gaming clans as a simple example. Every clan that had a few women in it would grow larger and last longer. <!--coloro:#FF6666--><span style="color:#FF6666"><!--/coloro-->Some of this could be that people who at attracted to the opposite sex like socializing with them. I think it has more to do with that fact that women usually think differently than men and that adds perspective to the game and the online friendships.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That really is not a solid reply. And why on earth would a clan with a few women in it grow larger and last longer? That's not necessarily true. This is all about prowling in search of women online.
<!--quoteo(post=1626630:date=May 14 2007, 04:28 AM:name=Sarisel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sarisel @ May 14 2007, 04:28 AM) [snapback]1626630[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
This seems to be a feeble attempt to get more exposure to the opposite sex in an anonymous internet video game. I guess it's some kind of fantasy that some people have here - meeting a girl in NS and then letting the friendship blossom? If it is, then watch out. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So, once again, it comes down to the question of: why bother in the first place? Why try to draw more of the female gender into this game?
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Because more female players just means more players in general. And more players generally means a longer lasting and better run for the game. Is that not obscenely obvious?
The major problem I see in using female models (even ones that look like real women) is that 90% of those using them are going to be guys doing it to get attention or generally act like morons, even more so then they would without being able to pretend to be a girl. This could easily detract from NS's atmosphere.
As a side note, my fiance tried NS a few times (probably because I never shut up about it). When she tried CO she thought it was fun for a little while but just too much mindless killing. When she tried classic she was too lost to get a feel for things. New male gamers face the same problem but they generally come in with more FPS experience. This is why I don't think one game can change the % of female gamers. They have to be introduced to FPSs first by other games to be on the same playing field as their male counterparts.
And there are so few female gamers for the same reason there are so few men at spas. It's just part of the culture.
Since the dawn of time men have not been able to figure out what makes women tick. They are an entity amongst themselves and shall remain a mystery. Always and Forevuh. Remember, <i>Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus</i>.
If you want to know what would make Natural Selection more appealing to women, then ASK THE WOMEN ffs. Unless you think you're an expert on them, which I seriously doubt.
x5 I don't know what to tell ya man. Some women have gaming in their blood and a natural ###### for stuff like this - most do not. But I still maintain ya need to poll them for the answer, for the rest of this is purely speculation.
When you treat people like dogish they usually dont play anymore, you'd probably be quite suprised how many females do already play ns - you probably all know some + others who play incognito. I'm not sure why this is the targeted sector for NS diversification..why not racial minorities.. There's already a dark skinned marine model (face) but I don't see huge crowds of african-americans on the servers / clans i have been involved with.
if you just want to hang out with girl gamers go play any MMO or find a girl clan for other games
So, what about Natural Selection appeals to the marketplace?
In my own experience playing NS1, the #1 place I "hear" ladies take up in the gameplay experience is the role of "commander". This is merely my take on it, based on my geusses of how ladies voices usually sound over varying mics of questionable quality. Some just come off fun loving and like to socialize, others even seem to try to use their "female gamer" status to entice other players to do their bidding.
From this I draw this conclusion, there may be something to Real Time Strategizing that may be more of an appeal than First Person Shooting. Just a hunch. Teamplay and Cooperation > Death Match. Natural Selection already does this, combining the heated action of FPS with the strategizing of a RTS and our own healthy dose of teamplay from the multiplayer realms.
Where you can improve things is, make playing the Commander and finding a way to incorperate the RTS view point more into the Kharaa (Perhaps a furthering of the Hive Mind?) will appeal to those players. There is already a great suggestion for this in the NS2 I&S. Also, anything that fosters cooperation and teamplay I suspect will further make the game's appeal undeniable. In the end, atmosphere may be cool, but its going to be the depth of the gameplay that is really going to sell to either gender.
So, seeing as a female TSA Marine model can't even be seen in the Command Chair, what's the point? And from personal experience, IMHO, no matter how you do up a female model, you'll never please everyone. Unless you are willing to appeal to the broad range of female models? Its not like would couldn't stand to have some variety in the male models body types either.
There are no girls on the internet. You can't appeal to a non existent (or extremely small if you feel like being realistic) player base >_>
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<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />
Wow, just ... wow.
That's supposed to be a joke, right?
Because more female players just means more players in general. And more players generally means a longer lasting and better run for the game. Is that not obscenely obvious?
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It's better to focus on just getting more players in general, not try cater to a particular gender over another. There are risks in doing so. Attracting more female players can translate to detracting of male players. It's not as simple as just introducing some aspects of gameplay in NS and - poof - you magically attracted the female gender.
The fact is that the male gender dominates FPS gaming and focusing on attracting minorities isn't going to make that much of a difference for an FPS game's financial success. As for critical success - what does that mean? Will the devs get a pat on the back for attracting the opposite sex?
NS can use more team-play and cooperation, but that certainly wouldn't just cater to the opposite gender. That would draw more people in general. That's what will lead to the game's financial and critical success - popularity from aspects of the game that appeal to a variety of people.
<!--quoteo(post=1626783:date=May 14 2007, 09:38 PM:name=Sarisel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sarisel @ May 14 2007, 09:38 PM) [snapback]1626783[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
It's better to focus on just getting more players in general, not try cater to a particular gender over another. There are risks in doing so. Attracting more female players can translate to detracting of male players. It's not as simple as just introducing some aspects of gameplay in NS and - poof - you magically attracted the female gender.
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Exactly. Only on the last point, I disagree, I was trying to point out that NS already has aspects that appeal to both men and women. I'm pretty sure we can both agree that the gameplay can be improved, right?
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The fact is that the male gender dominates FPS gaming and focusing on attracting minorities isn't going to make that much of a difference for an FPS game's financial success. As for critical success - what does that mean? Will the devs get a pat on the back for attracting the opposite sex?
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I have no idea how you read that into it. Critical success means getting getting good word of mouth from gamers, reviewers, industry watchers, and similar "critics". Games have been known to be "critically successful" with high review scores and gamers singing its praises but not do as well in sales. Most games that try to pander to a gender are usually just trying to cover up poor gameplay, for example some fighting and volley ball games come to mind.
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NS can use more team-play and cooperation, but that certainly wouldn't just cater to the opposite gender. That would draw more people in general. That's what will lead to the game's financial and critical success - popularity from aspects of the game that appeal to a variety of people.
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I didn't say it just catered to one sex. Only that I've read about studies that show women enjoy some parts in gameplay more than others when compared to their male counterparts, notably social aspects, such as teamwork and cooperation. Natural Selection already has that, so any improvements in those areas (and advertising that) would probably improve chances of getting fun for those who like that. I know I find fun in it.
While it may be true that you want to appeal to as wide an audience as you possibly can, you need to be careful that doesn't spread you thin, offering up shallow gameplay in all aspects.
Thank you, yes that's what I'm trying to get at.
<!--quoteo(post=1626765:date=May 14 2007, 07:49 PM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ May 14 2007, 07:49 PM) [snapback]1626765[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In my own experience playing NS1, the #1 place I "hear" ladies take up in the gameplay experience is the role of "commander". This is merely my take on it, based on my geusses of how ladies voices usually sound over varying mics of questionable quality. Some just come off fun loving and like to socialize, others even seem to try to use their "female gamer" status to entice other players to do their bidding.
From this I draw this conclusion, there may be something to Real Time Strategizing that may be more of an appeal than First Person Shooting. Just a hunch. Teamplay and Cooperation > Death Match. Natural Selection already does this, combining the heated action of FPS with the strategizing of a RTS and our own healthy dose of teamplay from the multiplayer realms.
Where you can improve things is, make playing the Commander and finding a way to incorperate the RTS view point more into the Kharaa (Perhaps a furthering of the Hive Mind?) will appeal to those players. There is already a great suggestion for this in the NS2 I&S. Also, anything that fosters cooperation and teamplay I suspect will further make the game's appeal undeniable. In the end, atmosphere may be cool, but its going to be the depth of the gameplay that is really going to sell to either gender.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm, now that I think about it... All of those ladies I mentioned that I knew of like building stuff a lot. Be it being a gorge, a marine building a base and welding stuff, or a commander. I also know Vixen at least gets quite irritated when you don't pay close attention to her usually more specific waypointing (I mean that she will give you specific waypoints rather than speaking orders aloud over the mic).
I also like building bases, repairing/healing stuff, and all that good RTS stuff but given that 100% of the female population I know of that plays NS loves the RTS elements more than the FPS elements in someways, perhaps that's what we could do on a design level to make the game more appealing to a female gamer market: focus on adding more RTS aspects and detail into NS2.
What's really cool your point, CanadianWolverine, is that it actually appeals to the whole market and if it makes it appeal more to the female market
<!--quoteo(post=1626765:date=May 14 2007, 07:49 PM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ May 14 2007, 07:49 PM) [snapback]1626765[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So, seeing as a female TSA Marine model can't even be seen in the Command Chair, what's the point? And from personal experience, IMHO, no matter how you do up a female model, you'll never please everyone.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Meh that's true, but variety and options wouldn't hurt. I especially like the idea of customizing or just choosing your model a lot and I think it's retarted how every major FPS out there has only <i>male</i> models.
Consider this: <b>Genetics</b>
The female's and male's brain chemistry is significantly different in many areas (numerious tests have been preformed through EKG, MRI, etc to highlight how females respond differently to certain stimuli than males). As this pertains to the "Hunter-Gatherer" society of human nature, males respond more actively to "hunting" related stimuli, such as combat, violence, and gore and are more likely to view these as entertaining than their female coounterparts (who may find "gathering" related stimuli such as role-playing character building, or constructing and collecting resources more enjoyable). This is not to say all members of a gender fall into their respective gender roles, but the vast majority will tend to adhere to them. As a personal example, nearly every single female player I've seen in NS has spent the majority of their time as Gorge.
So until society and science has completely done away with gender roles, hormones, and equilized biochemical composition in humans, NS is NOT and can NOT be the place to start this process. The females that do not play NS because they do not find violence enjoyable will still continue not to play regardless of what model is available to them, and those that do play NS because they enjoy it will care less about some model that is supposed to represent them when they are clearly trying to play a game in which self-representation affects gameplay by a factor of inverse porportional square of the speed of light to the power of who-gives-a-damn.
in military are womans, why not in ns2??
Its more realistic and i would like it.
Many games have woman player models.
I wish unknown worlds entertainment use female models with male models.
except the aliens, there no indicator for fe(male).