<!--quoteo(post=1628457:date=May 22 2007, 09:28 AM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(puzl @ May 22 2007, 09:28 AM) [snapback]1628457[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> "He who joyfully marches to music rank and file, has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be a part of so base an action. It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder."
- Albert Einstein The above quote from Einstein is something that resonates with me. People who run off to join the army seeking validity or some kind of 'trial by fire' are idiots. The recruiters who prey on the weak and uneducated are parasites on society.
There are many ways in which a person can prove their validity or worth without having to give up the only true possession they have: free will. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seriously, puzl, you need to stop throwing around insults so willfully. Just because someone is not the same as you doesn't make them an idiot. Is it not understanding the basis of pacifism? People will have differences, a pacifist chooses to understand those difference rather than destroy them. Or would you rather murder under the flag of peace?
This world is a complex one, and no single theory can explain it. No single idea is truth. Your lack of tolerance if the face of others is also not part of the solution.
<!--quoteo(post=1628457:date=May 22 2007, 03:28 PM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(puzl @ May 22 2007, 03:28 PM) [snapback]1628457[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> The recruiters who prey on the weak and uneducated are parasites on society. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I strongly agree with this statement. One of the main advantages of conscription is that people serve their time, indepandant from educational and social level. Seeing that the US does not rely on conscription but rather on people "dumb" enough to sign up, combined with the fact that they have a rather agresssive forgein politics you can clearly see why they prey on the weak.
To me it always seemed like the US army needs a limited number of well trained and educated specialists (tech personal, staff personal and pilots) which they try to keep out of harms way. But they also need a huge number of grunts to occupy whole nations. Then there is also the food that is beeing served.
During my service back in 2003 our battalion was responsible for sending people to guard rammstein airbase. Those who went also did eat at the US cafeteria and came back, reporting that the food served there was mainly: Pizza and Burgers!
The whole situation is just plain sick. You get the bottom 10% of society to sign up and THEN you do not try to improve their situation. Instead you serve them the unhealthy crap they are used to. And that on a daily basis. Nothing against pizza and nothing against burgers. They are good tasting, but serving them every day <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />
I am just using food as an example in this case, but I am pretty sure that you can similiar situations.
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
edited May 2007
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Seriously, puzl, you need to stop throwing around insults so willfully. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, they are idiots. If that offends you, that's your problem. Do I need to state this my personal opinion to salve your wounds? Note that someone who has served in the arm forces has responded with a general agreement of my point. I'm sorry Rob, but you're crying over nothing. It's a mild insult and personal opinion, if you have a problem with it I suggest it is your problem.
Aren't you the one who locked a topic right after a (factually innacruate )pro-US/anti-EU post got made with some gung-ho comment about smell of a can of whoop-######. So sort out your own house before you come complaining about my very mild opinions on the topic.
<!--quoteo(post=1628457:date=May 22 2007, 08:28 AM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(puzl @ May 22 2007, 08:28 AM) [snapback]1628457[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> "He who joyfully marches to music rank and file, has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be a part of so base an action. It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder."
- Albert Einstein The above quote from Einstein is something that resonates with me. People who run off to join the army seeking validity or some kind of 'trial by fire' are idiots. The recruiters who prey on the weak and uneducated are parasites on society.
There are many ways in which a person can prove their validity or worth without having to give up the only true possession they have: free will. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1628460:date=May 22 2007, 09:49 AM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(puzl @ May 22 2007, 09:49 AM) [snapback]1628460[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Well, they are idiots. If that offends you, that's your problem. Do I need to state this my personal opinion to salve your wounds? Note that someone who has served in the arm forces has responded with a general agreement of my point. I'm sorry Rob, but you're crying over nothing. It's a mild insult and personal opinion, if you have a problem with it I suggest it is your problem.
Aren't you the one who locked a topic right after a pro-US post got made with some gung-ho comment about opening a can of whoop-######. So sort out your own house before you come complaining about my very mild opinions on the topic. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't call anyone an idiot. I have no wounds. As you're well aware. I'm a moderator of these forums. You're not making my job easier by insulting users. Catch my drift?
I'm not crying, and I don't deny anyone there opinion. However, society has laws that allow it to function. It my be my opinion that you be flogged for your cold heart. I can't just do it, though. That's a crime. It's not your problem that someone's insulted. It <b>is</b> your problem if no one likes you or that you start verbal skirmishes.
I'll ask you again, find a better way to express your opinion. And I'll ask you to drop this before I have to lock this thread, too.
<!--quoteo(post=1628457:date=May 22 2007, 03:28 PM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(puzl @ May 22 2007, 03:28 PM) [snapback]1628457[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> There are many ways in which a person can prove their validity or worth without having to give up the only true possession they have: free will. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is no such thing as free will, there is only the illusion of free will.
We are all slaves to genetics, education and circumstances.
If you are able to reproduce a certain situation exactly as it was you will always get the same results/outcome. (Concistency of time)
Even if you do now want to accept this, you still dont have a free will, because you gave up a part of it in order to be able to live amongst other humans. If you chose to undertake certain actions (killing people) you will be punished by society and the chance to undertake the same action again will be taken away from you, thus eliminating your "free will".
EDIT: @ puzl and rob
Would you still argue this way if the US was not waging war?
And just to let it rip: Terrorism is the unlawful use of force in order to achieve political goals! In theory every US soldier could ask for asylum in any EU state, because he is forced to fight for a nation commiting terroristic acts!
If you doubt it, well: A german major was ordered to go to Afghanistan. He refused to go, stating that this was an unlawful order. He got demoted and then went to court and WON! The "Bundersverwaltungsgericht" gave him right and he got his rank back.
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
edited May 2007
leaving the epistemological aspects of the problem aside, there are definitely degrees of free will.
Lets put on one side of the scale, the relative experience of freewill an individual experiences when they make their own decisions.
Lets put on the other side of the scale the relative deprivation of freewill an individual experiences when they are made to do something they don't want to.
Lets call this 'choice' vs 'cooercion'. We can even call it 'making your own mind up' vs 'following orders' if the use of the pejorative offends you. Yes, a person might always end up doing what they would have decided to do anyway, but this is beside the point.
So, can we dispense with Philosophy 101 and accept that there is a difference between a person who is reasonably free to make their own decisions and someone who is obliged to follow the orders imposed on it by a power structure.
Since women serve in many western militaries too, and a significant proportion of them leave without a [male-specific body part] (the forums censor this latin word in a hilarious way) and with their [female-specific body part] (this one too) and mammaries intact, I assume that this military-imparted manhood is of a metaphorical nature. Does anyone feel like elaborating? I did not serve in the military, and I can piss while standing (although admittedly my aim in this discipline is just as shoddy as in any first-person-shooter), so I presume I am yet of the male gender.
How DOES the military make you a man? If it teaches you urinary marksmanship, sign me up.
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
This debate surfaced on jarHedz last year. I didn't take part in the discussion then because it was well inflamed by the time I got to it, but one person in particular took great offence to the idea that the military has some kind of monopoly on personal sacrifice for the greater good.
All those people who put their neck on the line to help the underprivileged, I salute you. Those who work with the sick, the poor and the desperate and try to give them a leg up back into society, I respect you much more because you put your ###### on the line and do so under your own moral compass. Being a tree-hugging-euro-leftist-loon [sarcasm], I know many people who have worked with various charities in areas that even the US military thinks twice about before entering, and these people truely are the bravest people I can imagine.
I expect that the experiences and challenges they meet are comparable to anything you would experience in the military. I know one guy who used to drive a charity bus into Bosnia during the troubles. He's a neighbour of my in-laws and the stories he tells would terrify even the bravest of us.
Hi folks. Nice to see you still play, though I'm a bit sad to see you don't always play nice.
Looking at the posters in here, one can sense a gap between American and European attitudes on the topic (though this is, obviously, only as correct as any generalization ever was). It's a trite observation, but we consider the military (and, by extension, warfare) in vastly different lights. The more I think about the issue, the more I come down somewhere between both chairs.
Don't get me wrong; personally, I am still the pacifist tree-hugger many of you remember from the Discussions forum. I was a conscientious objector, and I'd take the same route in a heartbeat. The authoritarian hierarchy of the military still makes me gag.
I used to field the successful non-violent revolutions of the last century, starting with India and ending with Serbia, as counter-examples to prove that the militant paradigm has outlived its use. Further observation has however shown to me that non-violent resistance is only feasible when the force it is applied against is either already equipped with a modicum of personal freedoms (see the Indian struggle for independence) or under pressure from outside that makes a violent retaliation impossible (see Eastern Germany or Serbia). In other words, even pacifist change is often only made possible by the existence of strong economic or military presences. If I were to damn the very concept of the military with the frevor I used to, I would be a bigot.
Still: What the last six years have shown is that the modern western military is too easily used, making it preferrable to more humane (and effective) forms of conflict-resolution. If you join your military today, you are far too likely to be abused.
An excellent point Nemesis Zero, and the only reason I support the continued use of general conscription in Sweden. A large conscript army reduces the chance of the armed forces being used offensively.
Unfortunately a paradigm shift is taking place in the Swedish military, effectively splitting officers into two camps. The wrong side is winning, and Sweden is slowly but surely converting it's armed forces into an offensive pre-emptive strike-force to be used by it's larger and more powerful allies - NATO and the western European powers.
I would think several times more than once before signing into an armed force already applying these principles in full; nations such as the US and the UK have a long history of waging offensive wars under the pretext of self defense or the defense of some random ally of opportunity (the opportunity to use the ally as a pretext of war), in the true Roman spirit.
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
I'd hate to think what kind of a world we'd now live in if Europe was likeminded enough, and determined enough to apply military force to situations in order to force its position. So, in some respects, we can also be glad of the converse situation: sometimes conflicts do not escalate due to the absence of a military pressure.
Chomsky talks about these subjects at length and discusses in detail the case against military intervention. In pretty much all scenarios, a foreign power intervening makes things worse. There are plenty of cases for this point - Indochina, Latin America, and more recently Iraq. That isn't to say that it is always the wrong choice. I think the call to go into Afghanistan was the right decision, but unfortunately the inability to follow through and solve the problem fully will result in it coming home to roost eventually. Investigations into what happened in F.Y.R is uncovering evidence that the intervention was the trigger for a very large portion of the slaughter. British internment and military presence in Northern Ireland catalysed a civilian revolt into an organised terrorist campaign. On the flipside, there have been many times in which the hawks have pushed the agenda of hard military action and time has vindicated the dove approach to the problem. The Cuban missile crisis being the perfect example of this ( See: <a href="http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0317910/" target="_blank">Fog of War</a> ).
<!--quoteo(post=1628492:date=May 22 2007, 03:15 PM:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tjosan @ May 22 2007, 03:15 PM) [snapback]1628492[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would think several times more than once before signing into an armed force already applying these principles in full; nations such as the US and the UK have a long history of waging offensive wars under the pretext of self defense or the defense of some random ally of opportunity (the opportunity to use the ally as a pretext of war), in the true Roman spirit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Problem being that this kind of proactive warfare might actually be necessary in very rare cases. We're surrounded by horrible, horrible examples for aggressive wars, by instances of extreme human tragedy, but still: However much I pity the guy in my SR group who came back from Afghanistan with emotional scars, even he is glad Germany has troops there that make sure women are not stoned for showing their <i>hair</i>.
[Edit] Good post, puzl. I'd like to emphasize that I was not discussing the active intervention in my previous post, though; I was talking about the credible threat of such an intervention. Ironically, this has often been significantly more successful than the pure aggressive or defensive approach. [/Edit]
KassingerShades of greyJoin Date: 2002-02-20Member: 229Members, Constellation
The necessity of having a standing military able to respond is not much to question. However, we should always question the necessity of using such a force.
I have several friends who used to serve in the armed forced. They all bugged out because of all the [bovine excrement] that goes around (USN, USMC and USAF and Army Engineers)
<!--quoteo(post=1628473:date=May 22 2007, 04:19 PM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lolfighter @ May 22 2007, 04:19 PM) [snapback]1628473[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Since women serve in many western militaries too, and a significant proportion of them leave without a [male-specific body part] (the forums censor this latin word in a hilarious way) and with their [female-specific body part] (this one too) and mammaries intact, I assume that this military-imparted manhood is of a metaphorical nature. Does anyone feel like elaborating? I did not serve in the military, and I can piss while standing (although admittedly my aim in this discipline is just as shoddy as in any first-person-shooter), so I presume I am yet of the male gender.
How DOES the military make you a man? If it teaches you urinary marksmanship, sign me up. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Anyone? Several of you made claims of military-induced masculinity. Please enlighten me.
<!--quoteo(post=1628788:date=May 23 2007, 11:36 PM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lolfighter @ May 23 2007, 11:36 PM) [snapback]1628788[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Anyone? Several of you made claims of military-induced masculinity. Please enlighten me. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We always asked our commanding officer for a shift of time, when the 9th company (the company where they plunged all the women in our battalion) was going over the obstacle course. Fun times.
I have to admit we also had recruits who did not get over every obstacle on the first try, but when you have 20 women standing infront of a 3 meter wall and none of them can pass it. Just plain fun. Sadly enough they never thought about bunking up and getting over the wall as a team <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
Personally I am actually for finally instituting full "Wehrgerechtigkeit" currently only men have to serve as conscripts, meaning that women can make it a year earlier into university for example. I am all for universal suffrage and everything related. But if you want the candy, you also have to hit the dirt <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
EDIT:
ANd the point about it making you more manly is just the following. When you climb the mount everest you can feel superior to someone who has not climbed the mount everest. Some goes for baking a cake or jogging in full ABC-Gear when it is 34 degree celcies outside. It is just an experience that shapes you to a good portion. Everyone who served has been at the limit at some point. And when we went through blood (bloody feet from blebs popping) and sweat with other guys, you simply feel a rather strong bond to these persons. You feel like you can trust them more afterwards. And trust is something that is rather important. Personally I trust someone who serverd more easily, because I know that we have shared similiar experiences. Oh: And it brought me and my brother closer together (we were already pretty close, but when he served I told him what to except, he did thought it was all bollocks, then at his first weekend home I saw in his eyes, that everything happend just as I foretold.) Serving is just something that connects you to other people quite alot. I have yet to meet someone who said that his civil service connected him others in a special way.
<!--quoteo(post=1628473:date=May 22 2007, 10:19 AM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lolfighter @ May 22 2007, 10:19 AM) [snapback]1628473[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Since women serve in many western militaries too, and a significant proportion of them leave without a [male-specific body part] (the forums censor this latin word in a hilarious way) and with their [female-specific body part] (this one too) and mammaries intact, I assume that this military-imparted manhood is of a metaphorical nature. Does anyone feel like elaborating? I did not serve in the military, and I can piss while standing (although admittedly my aim in this discipline is just as shoddy as in any first-person-shooter), so I presume I am yet of the male gender.
How DOES the military make you a man? If it teaches you urinary marksmanship, sign me up. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> "Make you a man" is a manner of speaking then, if you wish to get technical. It prepares one for adulthood and future careers in several ways, already mentioned.
The military teaches you obedience to anybody of higher rank.
The military teaches you to shoot first and ask questions later.
The military teaches you to work together, because it's the only way you'll pull through.
The military teaches you that skin color does not matter.
The military teaches you that life is unfair.
The military teaches you life in its most basic, rudimentary form.
Though I do not serve in the military, or have any plans to, just about any soldier of the USA is a great person and deserves at least a shred of dignity and respect.
It seems that in Europe, almost all the militaries (especially the conscripted ones) seem to hold as much prestige as the post office. It's a shame.
But it's also a direct consequence of the Armed Forces of the United States directly and unwaveringly subsidizing your defense in the face of one of the most powerful empires in the world. American M48s faced off Soviet T-55s on the opposing side of the Curtain. American soldiers were stationed opposite their Soviet counterparts.
Well it's time for global American hegemony. Of course we're denounced as cruel imperialists in Le Tribune or The Guardian when we go in. But we're declared cowardly isolationists when we don't.
The patriotism and nationalism that threw millions of Europe's finest into the trenches of WWI seems to have died out. And when some rioters in Germany throw rocks or even molotov cocktails into the very American bases that safeguarded their existence from the 50s to the early 90s, it is a very sad state of affairs.
The United States military has probably been the biggest whipping boy of modern history. But at the end of the day, they're the people the rest of the world simply can't do without.
I'm glad the patriotism and nationalism that threw Europe's finest into the trenches in WWI has died out. WWI was bad.
Shooting before asking questions seem stupid, how can learning to do that be a good thing?
[Edit] Of course, I'm not so sure the reason millions served and died during WWI was really patriotism. I'd rather attribute it to the threat of decimation unless you followed orders and forced conscription.
<!--quoteo(post=1628802:date=May 23 2007, 05:55 PM:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tjosan @ May 23 2007, 05:55 PM) [snapback]1628802[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I'm glad the patriotism and nationalism that threw Europe's finest into the trenches in WWI has died out. WWI was bad.
Shooting before asking questions seem stupid, how can learning to do that be a good thing?
[Edit] Of course, I'm not so sure the reason millions served and died during WWI was really patriotism. I'd rather attribute it to the threat of decimation unless you followed orders and forced conscription. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Much like "obedience to anybody of higher rank" I believe it was meant as a 'you need to take the good with the bad' sort of thing. Or Rapier7 could just like being told to shoot people, it could go either way, I guess.
<!--quoteo(post=1628793:date=May 23 2007, 05:16 PM:name=Rapier7)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rapier7 @ May 23 2007, 05:16 PM) [snapback]1628793[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> The military teaches you to work together, because it's the only way you'll pull through.
The military teaches you that skin color does not matter.
The military teaches you that life is unfair.
The military teaches you life in its most basic, rudimentary form.
Though I do not serve in the military, or have any plans to<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> well. i guess you'll never know that stuff then. or not; then again most people do grow up, military service or not. you think of the military like its your favorite baseball team or something
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><strike>just about any</strike> every <strike>soldier of the USA</strike> human being is a <strike>great</strike> person and deserves at least a shred of dignity and respect.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> fixed.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It seems that in Europe, almost all the militaries (especially the conscripted ones) seem to hold as much prestige as the post office. It's a shame.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> it seems you dont know what the ###### youre talking about.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well it's time for global American hegemony. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> no. time has ran past your "hyperpower". youve had your moment, just like every empire. too bad you wasted it just like all the ones before you. people never learn, i wonder if its the arrogancy
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Of course we're denounced as cruel imperialists in Le Tribune or The Guardian when we go in. But we're declared cowardly isolationists when we don't. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> whether we like it or not, whether <i>you</i> like it or not, were in this world together. god knows how long though.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The patriotism and nationalism that threw millions of Europe's finest into the trenches of WWI seems to have died out. And when some rioters in Germany throw rocks or even molotov cocktails into the very American bases that safeguarded their existence from the 50s to the early 90s, it is a very sad state of affairs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> your second sentence contradicts the first one. sort out your thoughts, and while youre doing that think about this for a while: nationalism, not communism or fascism or imperialism or any other ism for that matter, is the one thing guilty for the last 200 years of bloodshed.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But at the end of the day, they're the people the rest of the world simply can't do without.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> i tried to think of something polite to say to this claim, but came up with nothing. its both amusing and a little intimidating that your government seems to think the same as you do
A lot of it depends on your unit, who you're working with, etc. Which is to say: a lot of it is luck. My morale and motivation are currently pretty bottomed out, and I absolutely despise a good 60-70% of my company's leadership, junior and senior both. Hell, I despise a good 30% of the junior enlisted, too.
But I've been attached to, opconned to, or directly supported a whole slew of units and people both stateside and in the Afghani mountains. Depending on the people, I've gone to ridiculous lengths to sham out of the most piddly and inconsequential detail or conversely volunteered to take gunner on a convoy 4 miles from the Pakistani border.
Would I recommend it? ish, I dunno. Probably not. And don't underestimate the strain your service could put on your loved ones.
The military is not in and of itself stupid, but due to its very nature, it is a system that nurtures and protects determined idiocy and incompetence. As long as you stay in and know how to and are willing to kiss ######, you'll rise in rank. The more rank you've got, the more you can do whatever you want to.
Anyway, yeah. I'm pretty ambivalent about it, but there's no chance in hell I'm re-enlisting. Good lord I'm not looking forward to Iraq in 2008. Except maybe the troop surge will have stabilized it by then! Hahahaha sigh. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1628557:date=May 22 2007, 05:01 PM:name=Abra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Abra @ May 22 2007, 05:01 PM) [snapback]1628557[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Lol I like how going to Iraqistan is defending your country.
Hold me <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" /> <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't think "defending your country" is a good reason for military service. Military should be defending, period. That's what I care about. If someone else in the world is being killed and oppressed for no reason someone should step up and ###### help them out. Weather it's within "your country" or not.
There is no such thing as a boarder any more as far as I'm concerned. This community is now a global community, and we'd be idiotic to not participate in it such.
This being said, don't make a strawman out of my argument. I'm not promoting people groups assuming authority over all others and going and enforcing laws they have no business enforcing elsewhere... but I think the world is no longer at a point where you just stay behind your own line and let other people suffer needlessly. We can see it instantly and immediately in first person now with the internet era, there is no valid excuse for ignoring ish any more. We have reached an impasse where it is now necessary to develop and maintain global law, even if it's just mind numbingly simple, things like "no genocides of other people group's allowed"
There are alot of good things about the war in iraq... Not that creating a warzone out of a third world country is a positive thing, but at least the people there have a chance at controlling their own destiny, something they lacked before. No leader should have the right to quell dissenting voices within his populous by means of murder.
You know... This controlling your own destiny thing. For some countries, it's not exactly the most important value.
At least in Asia, most people don't give a damn about voting for a leader. I will say democracy takes a back seat to stability/economic prosperity here. If democracy happened to fit in, well why not. But if the communist government/military junta/dictators/One political party can feed the people well enough, good for them. See China, Singapore, Japan. That, in my opinion, is how it got screwed Vietnam. Applying US. value of democracy to Asian stability/national pride.
I'm not saying it's not a good idea to remove Saddam. Like you said he was a murderous dictator. But screw this talk about freedom, destiny and all that.
<!--quoteo(post=1628819:date=May 23 2007, 06:43 PM:name=DrSuredeath)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DrSuredeath @ May 23 2007, 06:43 PM) [snapback]1628819[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> You know... This controlling your own destiny thing. For some countries, it's not exactly the most important value.
At least in Asia, most people don't give a damn about voting for a leader. I will say democracy takes a back seat to stability/economic prosperity here. If democracy happened to fit in, well why not. But if the communist government/military junta/dictators/One political party can feed the people well enough, good for them. See China, Singapore, Japan. That, in my opinion, is how it got screwed Vietnam. Applying US. value of democracy to Asian stability/national pride.
I'm not saying it's not a good idea to remove Saddam. Like you said he was a murderous dictator. But screw this talk about freedom, destiny and all that. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't give a damn about voting for a leader, I just want the leader I'm supporting to do a good job. Frankly I don't particularly want him to be massively at the whim of fickle public intuition. Some times unpopular decisions will need to be made to improve the long run at the cost of temporary discomfort.
<!--quoteo(post=1628793:date=May 23 2007, 11:16 PM:name=Rapier7)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rapier7 @ May 23 2007, 11:16 PM) [snapback]1628793[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> The military teaches you to shoot first and ask questions later. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd imagine intelligence gatherers and analysts will ask their questions before they shoot their enemy <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
On a more O/T note, I've turned simple interest in to a political debate. Please remind me to never post another topic of real importance on these forums again.
<!--quoteo(post=1628894:date=May 24 2007, 04:47 AM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Thaldarin @ May 24 2007, 04:47 AM) [snapback]1628894[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> On a more O/T note, I've turned simple interest in to a political debate. Please remind me to never post another topic of real importance on these forums again. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> people who like guns tend to like politics too
Comments
"He who joyfully marches to music rank and file, has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be a part of so base an action. It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder."
- Albert Einstein
The above quote from Einstein is something that resonates with me. People who run off to join the army seeking validity or some kind of 'trial by fire' are idiots. The recruiters who prey on the weak and uneducated are parasites on society.
There are many ways in which a person can prove their validity or worth without having to give up the only true possession they have: free will.
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Seriously, puzl, you need to stop throwing around insults so willfully. Just because someone is not the same as you doesn't make them an idiot. Is it not understanding the basis of pacifism? People will have differences, a pacifist chooses to understand those difference rather than destroy them. Or would you rather murder under the flag of peace?
This world is a complex one, and no single theory can explain it. No single idea is truth. Your lack of tolerance if the face of others is also not part of the solution.
The recruiters who prey on the weak and uneducated are parasites on society.
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I strongly agree with this statement. One of the main advantages of conscription is that people serve their time, indepandant from educational and social level. Seeing that the US does not rely on conscription but rather on people "dumb" enough to sign up, combined with the fact that they have a rather agresssive forgein politics you can clearly see why they prey on the weak.
To me it always seemed like the US army needs a limited number of well trained and educated specialists (tech personal, staff personal and pilots) which they try to keep out of harms way. But they also need a huge number of grunts to occupy whole nations. Then there is also the food that is beeing served.
During my service back in 2003 our battalion was responsible for sending people to guard rammstein airbase. Those who went also did eat at the US cafeteria and came back, reporting that the food served there was mainly: Pizza and Burgers!
The whole situation is just plain sick. You get the bottom 10% of society to sign up and THEN you do not try to improve their situation. Instead you serve them the unhealthy crap they are used to. And that on a daily basis.
Nothing against pizza and nothing against burgers. They are good tasting, but serving them every day <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />
I am just using food as an example in this case, but I am pretty sure that you can similiar situations.
Seriously, puzl, you need to stop throwing around insults so willfully.
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Well, they are idiots. If that offends you, that's your problem. Do I need to state this my personal opinion to salve your wounds? Note that someone who has served in the arm forces has responded with a general agreement of my point. I'm sorry Rob, but you're crying over nothing. It's a mild insult and personal opinion, if you have a problem with it I suggest it is your problem.
Aren't you the one who locked a topic right after a (factually innacruate )pro-US/anti-EU post got made with some gung-ho comment about smell of a can of whoop-######. So sort out your own house before you come complaining about my very mild opinions on the topic.
"He who joyfully marches to music rank and file, has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be a part of so base an action. It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder."
- Albert Einstein
The above quote from Einstein is something that resonates with me. People who run off to join the army seeking validity or some kind of 'trial by fire' are idiots. The recruiters who prey on the weak and uneducated are parasites on society.
There are many ways in which a person can prove their validity or worth without having to give up the only true possession they have: free will.
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Hear hear.
Well, they are idiots. If that offends you, that's your problem. Do I need to state this my personal opinion to salve your wounds? Note that someone who has served in the arm forces has responded with a general agreement of my point. I'm sorry Rob, but you're crying over nothing. It's a mild insult and personal opinion, if you have a problem with it I suggest it is your problem.
Aren't you the one who locked a topic right after a pro-US post got made with some gung-ho comment about opening a can of whoop-######. So sort out your own house before you come complaining about my very mild opinions on the topic.
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I didn't call anyone an idiot. I have no wounds. As you're well aware. I'm a moderator of these forums. You're not making my job easier by insulting users. Catch my drift?
I'm not crying, and I don't deny anyone there opinion. However, society has laws that allow it to function. It my be my opinion that you be flogged for your cold heart. I can't just do it, though. That's a crime. It's not your problem that someone's insulted. It <b>is</b> your problem if no one likes you or that you start verbal skirmishes.
I'll ask you again, find a better way to express your opinion. And I'll ask you to drop this before I have to lock this thread, too.
Seems to me that you just don't like my opinion so you are trying to bully me into submission with your power trip. How republican of you.
There are many ways in which a person can prove their validity or worth without having to give up the only true possession they have: free will.
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There is no such thing as free will, there is only the illusion of free will.
We are all slaves to genetics, education and circumstances.
If you are able to reproduce a certain situation exactly as it was you will always get the same results/outcome. (Concistency of time)
Even if you do now want to accept this, you still dont have a free will, because you gave up a part of it in order to be able to live amongst other humans. If you chose to undertake certain actions (killing people) you will be punished by society and the chance to undertake the same action again will be taken away from you, thus eliminating your "free will".
EDIT:
@ puzl and rob
Would you still argue this way if the US was not waging war?
And just to let it rip: Terrorism is the unlawful use of force in order to achieve political goals! In theory every US soldier could ask for asylum in any EU state, because he is forced to fight for a nation commiting terroristic acts!
If you doubt it, well: A german major was ordered to go to Afghanistan. He refused to go, stating that this was an unlawful order. He got demoted and then went to court and WON! The "Bundersverwaltungsgericht" gave him right and he got his rank back.
Lets put on one side of the scale, the relative experience of freewill an individual experiences when they make their own decisions.
Lets put on the other side of the scale the relative deprivation of freewill an individual experiences when they are made to do something they don't want to.
Lets call this 'choice' vs 'cooercion'. We can even call it 'making your own mind up' vs 'following orders' if the use of the pejorative offends you. Yes, a person might always end up doing what they would have decided to do anyway, but this is beside the point.
So, can we dispense with Philosophy 101 and accept that there is a difference between a person who is reasonably free to make their own decisions and someone who is obliged to follow the orders imposed on it by a power structure.
How DOES the military make you a man? If it teaches you urinary marksmanship, sign me up.
All those people who put their neck on the line to help the underprivileged, I salute you. Those who work with the sick, the poor and the desperate and try to give them a leg up back into society, I respect you much more because you put your ###### on the line and do so under your own moral compass. Being a tree-hugging-euro-leftist-loon [sarcasm], I know many people who have worked with various charities in areas that even the US military thinks twice about before entering, and these people truely are the bravest people I can imagine.
I expect that the experiences and challenges they meet are comparable to anything you would experience in the military. I know one guy who used to drive a charity bus into Bosnia during the troubles. He's a neighbour of my in-laws and the stories he tells would terrify even the bravest of us.
Looking at the posters in here, one can sense a gap between American and European attitudes on the topic (though this is, obviously, only as correct as any generalization ever was). It's a trite observation, but we consider the military (and, by extension, warfare) in vastly different lights. The more I think about the issue, the more I come down somewhere between both chairs.
Don't get me wrong; personally, I am still the pacifist tree-hugger many of you remember from the Discussions forum. I was a conscientious objector, and I'd take the same route in a heartbeat. The authoritarian hierarchy of the military still makes me gag.
I used to field the successful non-violent revolutions of the last century, starting with India and ending with Serbia, as counter-examples to prove that the militant paradigm has outlived its use. Further observation has however shown to me that non-violent resistance is only feasible when the force it is applied against is either already equipped with a modicum of personal freedoms (see the Indian struggle for independence) or under pressure from outside that makes a violent retaliation impossible (see Eastern Germany or Serbia). In other words, even pacifist change is often only made possible by the existence of strong economic or military presences. If I were to damn the very concept of the military with the frevor I used to, I would be a bigot.
Still: What the last six years have shown is that the modern western military is too easily used, making it preferrable to more humane (and effective) forms of conflict-resolution. If you join your military today, you are far too likely to be abused.
Just my opinion, obviously.
Unfortunately a paradigm shift is taking place in the Swedish military, effectively splitting officers into two camps. The wrong side is winning, and Sweden is slowly but surely converting it's armed forces into an offensive pre-emptive strike-force to be used by it's larger and more powerful allies - NATO and the western European powers.
I would think several times more than once before signing into an armed force already applying these principles in full; nations such as the US and the UK have a long history of waging offensive wars under the pretext of self defense or the defense of some random ally of opportunity (the opportunity to use the ally as a pretext of war), in the true Roman spirit.
Chomsky talks about these subjects at length and discusses in detail the case against military intervention. In pretty much all scenarios, a foreign power intervening makes things worse. There are plenty of cases for this point - Indochina, Latin America, and more recently Iraq. That isn't to say that it is always the wrong choice. I think the call to go into Afghanistan was the right decision, but unfortunately the inability to follow through and solve the problem fully will result in it coming home to roost eventually. Investigations into what happened in F.Y.R is uncovering evidence that the intervention was the trigger for a very large portion of the slaughter. British internment and military presence in Northern Ireland catalysed a civilian revolt into an organised terrorist campaign. On the flipside, there have been many times in which the hawks have pushed the agenda of hard military action and time has vindicated the dove approach to the problem. The Cuban missile crisis being the perfect example of this ( See: <a href="http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0317910/" target="_blank">Fog of War</a> ).
Problem being that this kind of proactive warfare might actually be necessary in very rare cases. We're surrounded by horrible, horrible examples for aggressive wars, by instances of extreme human tragedy, but still: However much I pity the guy in my SR group who came back from Afghanistan with emotional scars, even he is glad Germany has troops there that make sure women are not stoned for showing their <i>hair</i>.
[Edit] Good post, puzl. I'd like to emphasize that I was not discussing the active intervention in my previous post, though; I was talking about the credible threat of such an intervention. Ironically, this has often been significantly more successful than the pure aggressive or defensive approach. [/Edit]
Hold me <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
Since women serve in many western militaries too, and a significant proportion of them leave without a [male-specific body part] (the forums censor this latin word in a hilarious way) and with their [female-specific body part] (this one too) and mammaries intact, I assume that this military-imparted manhood is of a metaphorical nature. Does anyone feel like elaborating? I did not serve in the military, and I can piss while standing (although admittedly my aim in this discipline is just as shoddy as in any first-person-shooter), so I presume I am yet of the male gender.
How DOES the military make you a man? If it teaches you urinary marksmanship, sign me up.
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Anyone? Several of you made claims of military-induced masculinity. Please enlighten me.
Anyone? Several of you made claims of military-induced masculinity. Please enlighten me.
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We always asked our commanding officer for a shift of time, when the 9th company (the company where they plunged all the women in our battalion) was going over the obstacle course. Fun times.
I have to admit we also had recruits who did not get over every obstacle on the first try, but when you have 20 women standing infront of a 3 meter wall and none of them can pass it. Just plain fun. Sadly enough they never thought about bunking up and getting over the wall as a team <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
Personally I am actually for finally instituting full "Wehrgerechtigkeit" currently only men have to serve as conscripts, meaning that women can make it a year earlier into university for example. I am all for universal suffrage and everything related. But if you want the candy, you also have to hit the dirt <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
EDIT:
ANd the point about it making you more manly is just the following.
When you climb the mount everest you can feel superior to someone who has not climbed the mount everest. Some goes for baking a cake or jogging in full ABC-Gear when it is 34 degree celcies outside. It is just an experience that shapes you to a good portion. Everyone who served has been at the limit at some point. And when we went through blood (bloody feet from blebs popping) and sweat with other guys, you simply feel a rather strong bond to these persons. You feel like you can trust them more afterwards. And trust is something that is rather important. Personally I trust someone who serverd more easily, because I know that we have shared similiar experiences.
Oh: And it brought me and my brother closer together (we were already pretty close, but when he served I told him what to except, he did thought it was all bollocks, then at his first weekend home I saw in his eyes, that everything happend just as I foretold.)
Serving is just something that connects you to other people quite alot.
I have yet to meet someone who said that his civil service connected him others in a special way.
Since women serve in many western militaries too, and a significant proportion of them leave without a [male-specific body part] (the forums censor this latin word in a hilarious way) and with their [female-specific body part] (this one too) and mammaries intact, I assume that this military-imparted manhood is of a metaphorical nature. Does anyone feel like elaborating? I did not serve in the military, and I can piss while standing (although admittedly my aim in this discipline is just as shoddy as in any first-person-shooter), so I presume I am yet of the male gender.
How DOES the military make you a man? If it teaches you urinary marksmanship, sign me up.
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"Make you a man" is a manner of speaking then, if you wish to get technical. It prepares one for adulthood and future careers in several ways, already mentioned.
The military teaches you to shoot first and ask questions later.
The military teaches you to work together, because it's the only way you'll pull through.
The military teaches you that skin color does not matter.
The military teaches you that life is unfair.
The military teaches you life in its most basic, rudimentary form.
Though I do not serve in the military, or have any plans to, just about any soldier of the USA is a great person and deserves at least a shred of dignity and respect.
It seems that in Europe, almost all the militaries (especially the conscripted ones) seem to hold as much prestige as the post office. It's a shame.
But it's also a direct consequence of the Armed Forces of the United States directly and unwaveringly subsidizing your defense in the face of one of the most powerful empires in the world. American M48s faced off Soviet T-55s on the opposing side of the Curtain. American soldiers were stationed opposite their Soviet counterparts.
Well it's time for global American hegemony. Of course we're denounced as cruel imperialists in Le Tribune or The Guardian when we go in. But we're declared cowardly isolationists when we don't.
The patriotism and nationalism that threw millions of Europe's finest into the trenches of WWI seems to have died out. And when some rioters in Germany throw rocks or even molotov cocktails into the very American bases that safeguarded their existence from the 50s to the early 90s, it is a very sad state of affairs.
The United States military has probably been the biggest whipping boy of modern history. But at the end of the day, they're the people the rest of the world simply can't do without.
Shooting before asking questions seem stupid, how can learning to do that be a good thing?
[Edit] Of course, I'm not so sure the reason millions served and died during WWI was really patriotism. I'd rather attribute it to the threat of decimation unless you followed orders and forced conscription.
I'm glad the patriotism and nationalism that threw Europe's finest into the trenches in WWI has died out. WWI was bad.
Shooting before asking questions seem stupid, how can learning to do that be a good thing?
[Edit] Of course, I'm not so sure the reason millions served and died during WWI was really patriotism. I'd rather attribute it to the threat of decimation unless you followed orders and forced conscription.
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Much like "obedience to anybody of higher rank" I believe it was meant as a 'you need to take the good with the bad' sort of thing. Or Rapier7 could just like being told to shoot people, it could go either way, I guess.
The military teaches you to work together, because it's the only way you'll pull through.
The military teaches you that skin color does not matter.
The military teaches you that life is unfair.
The military teaches you life in its most basic, rudimentary form.
Though I do not serve in the military, or have any plans to<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
well. i guess you'll never know that stuff then. or not; then again most people do grow up, military service or not. you think of the military like its your favorite baseball team or something
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><strike>just about any</strike> every <strike>soldier of the USA</strike> human being is a <strike>great</strike> person and deserves at least a shred of dignity and respect.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
fixed.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It seems that in Europe, almost all the militaries (especially the conscripted ones) seem to hold as much prestige as the post office. It's a shame.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it seems you dont know what the ###### youre talking about.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well it's time for global American hegemony. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
no. time has ran past your "hyperpower". youve had your moment, just like every empire. too bad you wasted it just like all the ones before you. people never learn, i wonder if its the arrogancy
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Of course we're denounced as cruel imperialists in Le Tribune or The Guardian when we go in. But we're declared cowardly isolationists when we don't. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
whether we like it or not, whether <i>you</i> like it or not, were in this world together. god knows how long though.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The patriotism and nationalism that threw millions of Europe's finest into the trenches of WWI seems to have died out. And when some rioters in Germany throw rocks or even molotov cocktails into the very American bases that safeguarded their existence from the 50s to the early 90s, it is a very sad state of affairs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
your second sentence contradicts the first one. sort out your thoughts, and while youre doing that think about this for a while: nationalism, not communism or fascism or imperialism or any other ism for that matter, is the one thing guilty for the last 200 years of bloodshed.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But at the end of the day, they're the people the rest of the world simply can't do without.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i tried to think of something polite to say to this claim, but came up with nothing. its both amusing and a little intimidating that your government seems to think the same as you do
A lot of it depends on your unit, who you're working with, etc. Which is to say: a lot of it is luck. My morale and motivation are currently pretty bottomed out, and I absolutely despise a good 60-70% of my company's leadership, junior and senior both. Hell, I despise a good 30% of the junior enlisted, too.
But I've been attached to, opconned to, or directly supported a whole slew of units and people both stateside and in the Afghani mountains. Depending on the people, I've gone to ridiculous lengths to sham out of the most piddly and inconsequential detail or conversely volunteered to take gunner on a convoy 4 miles from the Pakistani border.
Would I recommend it? ish, I dunno. Probably not. And don't underestimate the strain your service could put on your loved ones.
The military is not in and of itself stupid, but due to its very nature, it is a system that nurtures and protects determined idiocy and incompetence. As long as you stay in and know how to and are willing to kiss ######, you'll rise in rank. The more rank you've got, the more you can do whatever you want to.
Anyway, yeah. I'm pretty ambivalent about it, but there's no chance in hell I'm re-enlisting. Good lord I'm not looking forward to Iraq in 2008. Except maybe the troop surge will have stabilized it by then! Hahahaha sigh. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
Lol I like how going to Iraqistan is defending your country.
Hold me <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
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I don't think "defending your country" is a good reason for military service. Military should be defending, period. That's what I care about. If someone else in the world is being killed and oppressed for no reason someone should step up and ###### help them out. Weather it's within "your country" or not.
There is no such thing as a boarder any more as far as I'm concerned. This community is now a global community, and we'd be idiotic to not participate in it such.
This being said, don't make a strawman out of my argument. I'm not promoting people groups assuming authority over all others and going and enforcing laws they have no business enforcing elsewhere... but I think the world is no longer at a point where you just stay behind your own line and let other people suffer needlessly. We can see it instantly and immediately in first person now with the internet era, there is no valid excuse for ignoring ish any more. We have reached an impasse where it is now necessary to develop and maintain global law, even if it's just mind numbingly simple, things like "no genocides of other people group's allowed"
There are alot of good things about the war in iraq... Not that creating a warzone out of a third world country is a positive thing, but at least the people there have a chance at controlling their own destiny, something they lacked before. No leader should have the right to quell dissenting voices within his populous by means of murder.
At least in Asia, most people don't give a damn about voting for a leader. I will say democracy takes a back seat to stability/economic prosperity here. If democracy happened to fit in, well why not. But if the communist government/military junta/dictators/One political party can feed the people well enough, good for them. See China, Singapore, Japan. That, in my opinion, is how it got screwed Vietnam. Applying US. value of democracy to Asian stability/national pride.
I'm not saying it's not a good idea to remove Saddam. Like you said he was a murderous dictator.
But screw this talk about freedom, destiny and all that.
You know... This controlling your own destiny thing. For some countries, it's not exactly the most important value.
At least in Asia, most people don't give a damn about voting for a leader. I will say democracy takes a back seat to stability/economic prosperity here. If democracy happened to fit in, well why not. But if the communist government/military junta/dictators/One political party can feed the people well enough, good for them. See China, Singapore, Japan. That, in my opinion, is how it got screwed Vietnam. Applying US. value of democracy to Asian stability/national pride.
I'm not saying it's not a good idea to remove Saddam. Like you said he was a murderous dictator.
But screw this talk about freedom, destiny and all that.
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I don't give a damn about voting for a leader, I just want the leader I'm supporting to do a good job. Frankly I don't particularly want him to be massively at the whim of fickle public intuition. Some times unpopular decisions will need to be made to improve the long run at the cost of temporary discomfort.
The military teaches you to shoot first and ask questions later.
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I'd imagine intelligence gatherers and analysts will ask their questions before they shoot their enemy <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
On a more O/T note, I've turned simple interest in to a political debate. Please remind me to never post another topic of real importance on these forums again.
On a more O/T note, I've turned simple interest in to a political debate. Please remind me to never post another topic of real importance on these forums again.
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people who like guns tend to like politics too