In the pic above you can see that the end of the pipe is sliced in half. The players will not be able to see the end, and nulling it makes it easier for the comm to see.
In older versions, the comm view was lower and cut into the sky & null brushes, which messed up the view, but it is now above the brushwork.
Here you can see how null brushes fill in the area above power core and the pipe. This is necessary so that the comm can see into those areas and drop stuff without having to wait for it to sink down.
The reason why structures sink when dropped above the bridges or tunnels is that the outside area is clipped, and you cannot drop a structure within a clip brush. With null brushes, however, the structure is dropped below rather than sinking.
You can also see in the pic above that the end of the pipe, circled in red, is nulled. This makes it a little easier for the comm to see down into the vent below.
In this next pic, you can see, in the red circle, that there is some space on each side of the pipe where it connects to the core:
The green arrow shows a rough line of sight from the bridge.
Players can see through null brushes, but because null brushes still block light, the sides of the pipe would look like crap if the null brushes touched up against it. Therefore, some space is necessary on the sides for lighting. Although the comm can see clearly into the entire area, the space without null brush will cause the sinking problem when the comm tries to drop something there, but as you can see, it's a small area.
I experimented with filling in the area above the bridge with a null brush, but that caused a bit of a problem that you can see in this pic:
If you try to place a structure with a wall in the way, it will go up the wall. The null brush acts as an invisible wall, and it's annoying in a narrow space like this. It allows you to drop something without having to wait for it to sink down, but you have to be precisely over top of the null brush for it to work. It also screwed up the view from the communications window. Therefore, I decided to go back to the original design.
This next pic shows how I also had to keep the ready room in mind when increasing the comm view height:
The ready room is circled in red and the top of the sky brush over power core is circled in green.
Increasing the comm view height to clear the sky brush also resulted in the comm seeing into the ready room by about 80 units. Simply raising the ready room wasn't an option because it resulted in additional leaves and the map wouldn't compile. After some tweaking, I managed to get 4 units of space between the floor of the ready room and the top of the sky brush so that the comm can clear both.
In this next pic, you can see the area where the view was screwed up in beta 2, but now it's clear.
Raising the comm view also exposes a bit of a texture alignment problem on the exterior, which is impossible to align perfectly, and as a rule of thumb, hide what you cannot fix. However, gameplay trumps graphics; therefore, it's better to have the comm view up high.
The ready room and the map itself are separate, isolated pieces; i dont see why adjusting the gap between them would have any affect on leaves.
Nicely done though man, good effort in fixing up the issues. Now just gotta play it some to see if there are any more <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
- added new path from power core/powerline to distribution - fixed siege points at waste and cargo hives - removed vent between cargo and northeast access - improved comm view - added more details (around northeast access, southeast access, distribution and the hallway between ms and communications) - fixed sticky corners in observatory doorway - fixed up some texture work (bridge exteriors and white hall by power core) - added null brush to bottom pipe in northeast (which is a func_wall) so that it has a shadow - updated minimaps with changes
This pic of an updated minimap shows how the new path fits into the layout:
I'm still adding more detail to the map, and I'll work on this area a bit more.
I also have to fix up some lighting problems, but nothing worth delaying the release of beta 3. For example, there are some ugly slice marks because of the way the lighting hits the brushwork like this :
Just a note of worry though, from the pics; you do know that any brush that is not a func_illusion (regardless of being a solid or entity), will still block the commander from dropping anything, even if it has a NULL texture on top. It just looks like you may have a couple of brushes that would do this, so i'm just wondering <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1641121:date=Jul 28 2007, 11:02 PM:name=StixNStonz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StixNStonz @ Jul 28 2007, 11:02 PM) [snapback]1641121[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just a note of worry though, from the pics; you do know that any brush that is not a func_illusion (regardless of being a solid or entity), will still block the commander from dropping anything, even if it has a NULL texture on top. It just looks like you may have a couple of brushes that would do this, so i'm just wondering <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->The only func_wall problem that I'm aware of is in Observatory. The center window is fine, but the windows around it are grouped into a func_wall. I've already switched it to a func_seethrough for the next release.
There are also some some func_illusion grates on the floor in a few spots that cause structures to sink. Personally, I prefer using func_illusions for grates, but I replaced the func_illusions that are on the floor with func_walls to fix this problem.
Also, as a result of raising the comm view height, lerk's nest is harder to see. To fix this, I've added a null brush in the exterior area above it.
Saturn Beta 4 is available here: <a href="http://files.filefront.com/ns_saturn_b4.zip/;8296968;/fileinfo.html" target="_blank"><b>Saturn Beta 4</b></a>
Summary of changes:
- fixed the floor in core bridges and in the hallway by ms so that when the comm drops structures, they won't sink - fixed windows in observatory so that they won't block structures from being dropped - cleaned up brush/texture work in observatory a bit (both from player and comm view) - added null brush over lerk's nest to make it easier for the comm to see and to drop structures - added cutaways to vents by northeast access, communications and by ms to give 3D effect and to use for ambushing - added cutaways to monitor by ms and in maint to add more of a 3D look - fixed some lighting/texture problems
In previous betas, the grate floor in the hallway by ms and in the core bridges was made of func_illusions with clip brushes. As a result, when the comm dropped structures there, they would sink through the floor. This is fixed in beta 4 by switching the func_illusions to func_walls. Here are a couple pics of what I'm talking about:
Because of the increased commander view height, it was a bit hard to see lerk's nest in beta 3. After some tweaking with a null brush, the comm has a pretty good view:
The cylinder in powerline had some texture stretching. This is because I originally planned to have a grate ceiling with the cylinder extending above and I wanted the texture scaled up enough so that it wouldn't create extra faces. However, that plan was scrapped and thus the higher texture scale isn't necessary.
In the red circle, you can see some slicing. The edges of the stairs and ceiling brushes align perfectly with the edges of the cylinder, but the compile tools had different plans.... <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />
In the green circle, you can see how the light on the texture looks a little truncated.
I also played around with the idea of using some models, but decided to leave that for an engine that has better support for such things. Here's a pic of some model detail I tried out for power core:
I didn't bother with uv mapping/skinning because I just wanted to get an idea of how it would look without spending too much time on it.
So, what's next? I'll continue to support Saturn with updates if necessary, but I want to turn my attention to new game engines. Lately, I've been playing around with 3dsm, unrealed, high res textures and putting ideas into brushwork in hammer for possible future projects.
Here's an example of a texture I've been messing around with:
In the top right corner, you can see the original texture from bast that the new texture is based on. Because HL2 has 4 pixels per unit, 512s are the new 128s, and I like to make ceilings a little higher; therefore, 1024 is the way to go. 1024 is also pretty much standard in UT2k4, but who knows what it'll be in UT3.
<!--quoteo(post=1643477:date=Aug 13 2007, 05:14 AM:name=Sike)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sike @ Aug 13 2007, 05:14 AM) [snapback]1643477[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Here's an example of a texture I've been messing around with:
In the top right corner, you can see the original texture from bast that the new texture is based on. Because HL2 has 4 pixels per unit, 512s are the new 128s, and I like to make ceilings a little higher; therefore, 1024 is the way to go. 1024 is also pretty much standard in UT2k4, but who knows what it'll be in UT3. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->You're re-making my favourite NS texture <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
The elevator at halls leading dres from marinestart has a somehow unfair button. Because as soon as the elevator has been used marines need to send the elevator up again to even reach the button.
All in all this map is horrible, i felt like i was imprisoned in a small spacestation with all these narrow hallways. Even the vents look like Spacestation vents. Just kidding, great map. I hope ill get it to play it on a populated server
I'm sorry but i have to add, that i think it is somewhat a bit too bright as i have not seen any completely dark spots in your map, so i'd like to see some more dark/bright contrast in that map. But it is just my opinion and not my map.
But if it gets darker i probably wont be able to sleep again, ever <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/asrifle.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::asrifle::" border="0" alt="asrifle.gif" /> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/skulk.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::skulk::" border="0" alt="skulk.gif" />
I actually felt that many parts needed to be brighter. Maybe try a compile with -scale 1.10, for a 10% brighter map.
Some areas need more flow, like the left hive. It seems like it needs a ladder or something up the side, so a gorge/marine doesnt need to go all the way around and up the ramp and catwalk to get there. This is mostly for gorges, as it really bothered me when i was gorging in the hive.
Check the runtimes. I did them awhile ago, and they all seemed pretty bad. NS Mappers can usually get away with high runtimes for the middle hive, but the outside hives, theres no excuse. I think you're looking at a 40+ second run to both of them, from MS. Consider streamlining some of the routes.
Oh and some of the vents just dont make sense. The left hive's comes to mind. Working from memory, both vents first go to the grates over the hallways, but you cant actually attack from there (though maybe gas). Skulks have to continue into a vent on the other side, and then drop down from the one room at the corner. Consider making openings in those grates so skulks have more options, rather than being forced to just show themselves before dropping into an awaiting ambush.
But i was just going through Saturn b4 to check that everything was good for the Map Pack, and found that I could actually still fit at least three sieges in that area that could hit the hive. This pic shows where I put them ( i placed 5 but at least 3 were hitting):
Could you please add a few more nobuilds or such and do a quick recompile please? That's a pretty horrible siege, especially now that you've removed the vent <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
While you're at it, it'd be great if you could add the -scale 1.10 to the RAD settings, as it could really use more light all around. Consider even doing 1.15. And in the left hive, Marines can jump up to the top, but gorges are really handicapped by not being able to, so please consider that ladder i was mentioning <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Comments
<img src="http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z164/_Sike_/beta3/null_sky3.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
In the pic above you can see that the end of the pipe is sliced in half. The players will not be able to see the end, and nulling it makes it easier for the comm to see.
In older versions, the comm view was lower and cut into the sky & null brushes, which messed up the view, but it is now above the brushwork.
Here you can see how null brushes fill in the area above power core and the pipe. This is necessary so that the comm can see into those areas and drop stuff without having to wait for it to sink down.
<img src="http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z164/_Sike_/beta3/null_sky2.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
The reason why structures sink when dropped above the bridges or tunnels is that the outside area is clipped, and you cannot drop a structure within a clip brush. With null brushes, however, the structure is dropped below rather than sinking.
You can also see in the pic above that the end of the pipe, circled in red, is nulled. This makes it a little easier for the comm to see down into the vent below.
In this next pic, you can see, in the red circle, that there is some space on each side of the pipe where it connects to the core:
<img src="http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z164/_Sike_/beta3/null_sky1.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
The green arrow shows a rough line of sight from the bridge.
Players can see through null brushes, but because null brushes still block light, the sides of the pipe would look like crap if the null brushes touched up against it. Therefore, some space is necessary on the sides for lighting. Although the comm can see clearly into the entire area, the space without null brush will cause the sinking problem when the comm tries to drop something there, but as you can see, it's a small area.
I experimented with filling in the area above the bridge with a null brush, but that caused a bit of a problem that you can see in this pic:
<img src="http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z164/_Sike_/beta3/null.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
If you try to place a structure with a wall in the way, it will go up the wall. The null brush acts as an invisible wall, and it's annoying in a narrow space like this. It allows you to drop something without having to wait for it to sink down, but you have to be precisely over top of the null brush for it to work. It also screwed up the view from the communications window. Therefore, I decided to go back to the original design.
This next pic shows how I also had to keep the ready room in mind when increasing the comm view height:
<img src="http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z164/_Sike_/beta3/comm_view.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
The ready room is circled in red and the top of the sky brush over power core is circled in green.
Increasing the comm view height to clear the sky brush also resulted in the comm seeing into the ready room by about 80 units. Simply raising the ready room wasn't an option because it resulted in additional leaves and the map wouldn't compile. After some tweaking, I managed to get 4 units of space between the floor of the ready room and the top of the sky brush so that the comm can clear both.
In this next pic, you can see the area where the view was screwed up in beta 2, but now it's clear.
<img src="http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z164/_Sike_/beta3/core.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
Raising the comm view also exposes a bit of a texture alignment problem on the exterior, which is impossible to align perfectly, and as a rule of thumb, hide what you cannot fix. However, gameplay trumps graphics; therefore, it's better to have the comm view up high.
Nicely done though man, good effort in fixing up the issues. Now just gotta play it some to see if there are any more <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Summary of changes:
- added new path from power core/powerline to distribution
- fixed siege points at waste and cargo hives
- removed vent between cargo and northeast access
- improved comm view
- added more details (around northeast access, southeast access, distribution and the hallway between ms and communications)
- fixed sticky corners in observatory doorway
- fixed up some texture work (bridge exteriors and white hall by power core)
- added null brush to bottom pipe in northeast (which is a func_wall) so that it has a shadow
- updated minimaps with changes
This pic of an updated minimap shows how the new path fits into the layout:
<img src="http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z164/_Sike_/beta3_2/b3_1.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
Here are some changes that I made yesterday:
The walls in distribution were flat; therefore, I added some cutaways to make it a little more interesting:
<img src="http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z164/_Sike_/beta3_2/b3_2.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
I also added some color to the hallway between ms and communications as bERt0r suggested:
<img src="http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z164/_Sike_/beta3_2/b3_3.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
<img src="http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z164/_Sike_/beta3_2/b3_4.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
I'm still adding more detail to the map, and I'll work on this area a bit more.
I also have to fix up some lighting problems, but nothing worth delaying the release of beta 3. For example, there are some ugly slice marks because of the way the lighting hits the brushwork like this :
<img src="http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z164/_Sike_/beta3_2/b3_5.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
I'll sort that out in another release, but the important gameplay related stuff is fixed up in beta 3.
Just a note of worry though, from the pics; you do know that any brush that is not a func_illusion (regardless of being a solid or entity), will still block the commander from dropping anything, even if it has a NULL texture on top. It just looks like you may have a couple of brushes that would do this, so i'm just wondering <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->The only func_wall problem that I'm aware of is in Observatory. The center window is fine, but the windows around it are grouped into a func_wall. I've already switched it to a func_seethrough for the next release.
There are also some some func_illusion grates on the floor in a few spots that cause structures to sink. Personally, I prefer using func_illusions for grates, but I replaced the func_illusions that are on the floor with func_walls to fix this problem.
Also, as a result of raising the comm view height, lerk's nest is harder to see. To fix this, I've added a null brush in the exterior area above it.
Lots of good attention to details, layout seems good too.
I'm a little concerned about some of the paths from the minimap, but I'll have to run through a few games before I comment on it.
Summary of changes:
- fixed the floor in core bridges and in the hallway by ms so that when the comm drops structures, they won't sink
- fixed windows in observatory so that they won't block structures from being dropped
- cleaned up brush/texture work in observatory a bit (both from player and comm view)
- added null brush over lerk's nest to make it easier for the comm to see and to drop structures
- added cutaways to vents by northeast access, communications and by ms to give 3D effect and to use for ambushing
- added cutaways to monitor by ms and in maint to add more of a 3D look
- fixed some lighting/texture problems
In previous betas, the grate floor in the hallway by ms and in the core bridges was made of func_illusions with clip brushes. As a result, when the comm dropped structures there, they would sink through the floor. This is fixed in beta 4 by switching the func_illusions to func_walls. Here are a couple pics of what I'm talking about:
<img src="http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z164/_Sike_/beta4/core2.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
<img src="http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z164/_Sike_/beta4/ms_hallway.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
Because of the increased commander view height, it was a bit hard to see lerk's nest in beta 3. After some tweaking with a null brush, the comm has a pretty good view:
<img src="http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z164/_Sike_/beta4/lerksNest.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
This one's for Skacky:
The cylinder in powerline had some texture stretching. This is because I originally planned to have a grate ceiling with the cylinder extending above and I wanted the texture scaled up enough so that it wouldn't create extra faces. However, that plan was scrapped and thus the higher texture scale isn't necessary.
<img src="http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z164/_Sike_/beta4/powerline.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
In the red circle, you can see some slicing. The edges of the stairs and ceiling brushes align perfectly with the edges of the cylinder, but the compile tools had different plans.... <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />
In the green circle, you can see how the light on the texture looks a little truncated.
And here's the new and improved version:
<img src="http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z164/_Sike_/beta4/powerline2.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
I also played around with the idea of using some models, but decided to leave that for an engine that has better support for such things. Here's a pic of some model detail I tried out for power core:
<img src="http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z164/_Sike_/beta4/core.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
I didn't bother with uv mapping/skinning because I just wanted to get an idea of how it would look without spending too much time on it.
So, what's next? I'll continue to support Saturn with updates if necessary, but I want to turn my attention to new game engines. Lately, I've been playing around with 3dsm, unrealed, high res textures and putting ideas into brushwork in hammer for possible future projects.
Here's an example of a texture I've been messing around with:
<img src="http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z164/_Sike_/beta4/highres_panel.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
In the top right corner, you can see the original texture from bast that the new texture is based on. Because HL2 has 4 pixels per unit, 512s are the new 128s, and I like to make ceilings a little higher; therefore, 1024 is the way to go. 1024 is also pretty much standard in UT2k4, but who knows what it'll be in UT3.
<img src="http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z164/_Sike_/beta4/highres_panel.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
In the top right corner, you can see the original texture from bast that the new texture is based on. Because HL2 has 4 pixels per unit, 512s are the new 128s, and I like to make ceilings a little higher; therefore, 1024 is the way to go. 1024 is also pretty much standard in UT2k4, but who knows what it'll be in UT3.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->You're re-making my favourite NS texture <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Because as soon as the elevator has been used marines need to send the elevator up again to even reach the button.
All in all this map is horrible, i felt like i was imprisoned in a small spacestation with all these narrow hallways.
Even the vents look like Spacestation vents.
Just kidding, great map. I hope ill get it to play it on a populated server
I'm sorry but i have to add, that i think it is somewhat a bit too bright as i have not seen any completely dark spots in your map, so i'd like to see some more dark/bright contrast in that map.
But it is just my opinion and not my map.
But if it gets darker i probably wont be able to sleep again, ever <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/asrifle.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::asrifle::" border="0" alt="asrifle.gif" /> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/skulk.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::skulk::" border="0" alt="skulk.gif" />
Some areas need more flow, like the left hive. It seems like it needs a ladder or something up the side, so a gorge/marine doesnt need to go all the way around and up the ramp and catwalk to get there. This is mostly for gorges, as it really bothered me when i was gorging in the hive.
Check the runtimes. I did them awhile ago, and they all seemed pretty bad. NS Mappers can usually get away with high runtimes for the middle hive, but the outside hives, theres no excuse. I think you're looking at a 40+ second run to both of them, from MS. Consider streamlining some of the routes.
Oh and some of the vents just dont make sense. The left hive's comes to mind. Working from memory, both vents first go to the grates over the hallways, but you cant actually attack from there (though maybe gas). Skulks have to continue into a vent on the other side, and then drop down from the one room at the corner. Consider making openings in those grates so skulks have more options, rather than being forced to just show themselves before dropping into an awaiting ambush.
<img src="http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z164/_Sike_/beta3/northeast1.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
But i was just going through Saturn b4 to check that everything was good for the Map Pack, and found that I could actually still fit at least three sieges in that area that could hit the hive. This pic shows where I put them ( i placed 5 but at least 3 were hitting):
<img src="http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/4483/nssaturnb40001uf5.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Could you please add a few more nobuilds or such and do a quick recompile please? That's a pretty horrible siege, especially now that you've removed the vent <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
While you're at it, it'd be great if you could add the -scale 1.10 to the RAD settings, as it could really use more light all around. Consider even doing 1.15. And in the left hive, Marines can jump up to the top, but gorges are really handicapped by not being able to, so please consider that ladder i was mentioning <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />