<!--quoteo(post=1749923:date=Jan 31 2010, 09:31 AM:name=Draco_2k)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Draco_2k @ Jan 31 2010, 09:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1749923"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Good friggin' luck with that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Good friggin' luck with the 3D architecture. I could see some kind of functional layout generated if they really dedicated themselves into making one, although the gameplay balance would still be anyone's guess. 3D architecture on the other hand is really tricky on a game where pracitcally the whole airspace is seeing a plenty of use too. I don't think any algorithm can do anything except the least detailed siegemap areas.
go to the link i posted. Its hl1 map generator. Works very well. But it uses a set of 5 textures, brushes hidden by brushes. It makes a large map, in a box shaped. I mean its great to work on from there. But still not to amazing.
schkorpioI can mspaintJoin Date: 2003-05-23Member: 16635Members
also the last 3 or so people didnt ready any part of the post - THE RANDOM MAP GENERATOR would use PREFAB'ed hallways and rooms vents etc and randomly place them. It wouldnt actually design corridors or anything
But you have to design them that they fit anywhere. It WILL feel like a <a href="http://farm1.static.flickr.com/152/406431361_16e0667c1e.jpg" target="_blank">habiTrail</a> after a while.
<!--quoteo(post=1750008:date=Jan 31 2010, 11:05 PM:name=schkorpio)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (schkorpio @ Jan 31 2010, 11:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1750008"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->also the last 3 or so people didnt ready any part of the post - THE RANDOM MAP GENERATOR would use PREFAB'ed hallways and rooms vents etc and randomly place them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Of course, there is no other way to do it. And no, you can have some random prop placement this way if you like quite easily... Not vents or corridors, however. This is why I posted the image: you can't really account for something like this with prefabs, nevermind balance.
schkorpioI can mspaintJoin Date: 2003-05-23Member: 16635Members
edited January 2010
<!--quoteo(post=1750009:date=Feb 1 2010, 06:11 AM:name=RobB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RobB @ Feb 1 2010, 06:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1750009"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But you have to design them that they fit anywhere. It WILL feel like a <a href="http://farm1.static.flickr.com/152/406431361_16e0667c1e.jpg" target="_blank">habiTrail</a> after a while.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> looks pretty fun if you ask me :D but i know what you mean. it would take a lot of variations of the pieces to keep it interesting. but hey thats pretty much what the models in the editor are like now.
also if you break the example map down into a corner pieces, straight pieces, T shape pieces, Y shape peices, diagonal pieces, rooms, stairs and lift shafts etc. it becomes pretty easy - kind of like the way you build maps in Trackmania. everything snaps together. The same thing could work for vents, but it would need a few extra rules to make sure you don't have vents in the middle of a hallway lol.
Well, since it won't be in ns2, why don't work on maps which have multiple doors, which get triggered randomly on start, so a new set of ways and doors are opened. You get what I mean :D
<!--quoteo(post=1750049:date=Feb 1 2010, 04:28 AM:name=schkorpio)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (schkorpio @ Feb 1 2010, 04:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1750049"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><img src="http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/8739/ns2powergridoverview.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's very clever, but breaking down rooms into blocks is far from enough: the blocks need to be interchangeable and interconnect-able at every turn, and then you need an algorithm which would recognise such connections.
If you've played Trine, you should know what I'm talking about: it uses prefabs which, while imitating a sprawling level, are basically blocks with one generic entrance and one generic exit. Anything more complex than that... Well. Look at your picture and try to picture how exactly would a procedural algorithm come up with something like this from square one.
+1 vote for dynamic configurations, but only at the object level. While the rooms themselves wouldn't reconfigure, certain objects (vents, structures, etc) would.
I have mentioned this before, but to refresh, I'd like to see the NS2 game officially support a very simple dynamic content specification. Mappers would be able to define as many configurations that they wished -- tying a number to each configuration. When the map loads, it would choose a random number from the available configurations, and create/trigger whatever objects are associated with that configuration. An optional parameter during map load would allow specifying which configuration to load.
The reasons to make this official are: 1) It would provide a standardized method for mappers to use. This makes it easier to support, from both the community and UW perspective. 2) It allows developers to more easily implement, since they don't have to script it. 3) It provides a well-known interface for servers/admins to use (or not use) the feature, as they see fit.
P.S. If dynamic configuration was implemented with special scripting for each map, it would not necessarily be done the same, making it harder for 3rd parties to use as they wanted.
The dynamic configuration idea seems much more plausible than maps which are just randomly generated. However, I don't like the idea of set of configurations which (if I understand your suggestion correctly) would just mean a set of maps which are slightly different from one another.
I think if each configurable object had a number tied to it, then the server could randomly choose which set of objects to include on the map.
This would mean that greater than three hives could be coded into a map and the server would choose which three to active.
It would be nice if the same map could have a very different gameplay experience each time you play it. Just to name a few more things that could be randomized, resource nozzles could change positions, rooms/vents could be flooded, doors/halls collapsing/removed ect.
umm Hell gate london sucked but not because of the maps, it was a boring repetitive "grind through the levels" type thing It was as repetitive as runescape or wow except worse This could work but its not a fix all, there would have to be just as many official tilesets
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited February 2010
Like what has been said in this thread already, most players do not, wait... most players HATE new things in maps ,that weren't there before and new maps they have to learn (hence the consistant rotation of veil/eclipse/nothing)
And the fact that NS mapping is way to complex to be handled by a map generator... Some things, as simple as moving a vent could potentially make an area that should be marine friendly into be the complete opposite. A map generator cannot playtest a map, think of - possible siege problems (ns_hera dual siege :P) - PG exploits - bilebomb havoc without a good counter option - Onos movement blocked by some random thing in a hallway - sticky corners making leap/lerk flight/fade pwhooom very annoying - Lork on Clorf - ventilation shafts of death (ns_nancy early version) - and probably more...
This game is not a deathmatch game *cough* combat *cough* and even for a deathmatch game, the above problems still exist...
Comments
Good friggin' luck with the 3D architecture. I could see some kind of functional layout generated if they really dedicated themselves into making one, although the gameplay balance would still be anyone's guess. 3D architecture on the other hand is really tricky on a game where pracitcally the whole airspace is seeing a plenty of use too. I don't think any algorithm can do anything except the least detailed siegemap areas.
It wouldnt actually design corridors or anything
It WILL feel like a <a href="http://farm1.static.flickr.com/152/406431361_16e0667c1e.jpg" target="_blank">habiTrail</a> after a while.
Of course, there is no other way to do it. And no, you can have some random prop placement this way if you like quite easily... Not vents or corridors, however. This is why I posted the image: you can't really account for something like this with prefabs, nevermind balance.
It WILL feel like a <a href="http://farm1.static.flickr.com/152/406431361_16e0667c1e.jpg" target="_blank">habiTrail</a> after a while.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
looks pretty fun if you ask me :D but i know what you mean. it would take a lot of variations of the pieces to keep it interesting. but hey thats pretty much what the models in the editor are like now.
also if you break the example map down into a corner pieces, straight pieces, T shape pieces, Y shape peices, diagonal pieces, rooms, stairs and lift shafts etc. it becomes pretty easy - kind of like the way you build maps in Trackmania. everything snaps together.
The same thing could work for vents, but it would need a few extra rules to make sure you don't have vents in the middle of a hallway lol.
<img src="http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/8739/ns2powergridoverview.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
You get what I mean :D
That's very clever, but breaking down rooms into blocks is far from enough: the blocks need to be interchangeable and interconnect-able at every turn, and then you need an algorithm which would recognise such connections.
If you've played Trine, you should know what I'm talking about: it uses prefabs which, while imitating a sprawling level, are basically blocks with one generic entrance and one generic exit. Anything more complex than that... Well. Look at your picture and try to picture how exactly would a procedural algorithm come up with something like this from square one.
I have mentioned this before, but to refresh, I'd like to see the NS2 game officially support a very simple dynamic content specification. Mappers would be able to define as many configurations that they wished -- tying a number to each configuration. When the map loads, it would choose a random number from the available configurations, and create/trigger whatever objects are associated with that configuration. An optional parameter during map load would allow specifying which configuration to load.
The reasons to make this official are:
1) It would provide a standardized method for mappers to use. This makes it easier to support, from both the community and UW perspective.
2) It allows developers to more easily implement, since they don't have to script it.
3) It provides a well-known interface for servers/admins to use (or not use) the feature, as they see fit.
P.S. If dynamic configuration was implemented with special scripting for each map, it would not necessarily be done the same, making it harder for 3rd parties to use as they wanted.
I think if each configurable object had a number tied to it, then the server could randomly choose which set of objects to include on the map.
This would mean that greater than three hives could be coded into a map and the server would choose which three to active.
It would be nice if the same map could have a very different gameplay experience each time you play it. Just to name a few more things that could be randomized, resource nozzles could change positions, rooms/vents could be flooded, doors/halls collapsing/removed ect.
Hell gate london sucked
but not because of the maps, it was a boring repetitive "grind through the levels" type thing
It was as repetitive as runescape or wow except worse
This could work but its not a fix all, there would have to be just as many official tilesets
Rouge + diablo + an alien != NS2
And the fact that NS mapping is way to complex to be handled by a map generator... Some things, as simple as moving a vent could potentially make an area that should be marine friendly into be the complete opposite. A map generator cannot playtest a map, think of
- possible siege problems (ns_hera dual siege :P)
- PG exploits
- bilebomb havoc without a good counter option
- Onos movement blocked by some random thing in a hallway
- sticky corners making leap/lerk flight/fade pwhooom very annoying
- Lork on Clorf
- ventilation shafts of death (ns_nancy early version)
- and probably more...
This game is not a deathmatch game *cough* combat *cough* and even for a deathmatch game, the above problems still exist...