locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1647176:date=Sep 3 2007, 03:00 AM:name=enigma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(enigma @ Sep 3 2007, 03:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1647176"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the ambient sounds in ns1 can be considered subtle and barely noticeable to the amateur player, but to an experienced player they become a huge distraction and annoyance. it's why the vast majority of competitive players end up replacing the ambient sound files with blanks. if your intention is to make the breathing so subtle that it's almost unnoticeable, then what's the point of it in the first place?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not really for a sprint key per say, but I think your logic is a bit flawed. The sound of a marine running would be a useful noise, like a marine reloading or a gorge's footsteps. If you replaced the sound file you'd be missing out on information when you're on kharaa.
<!--quoteo(post=1647198:date=Sep 3 2007, 10:17 AM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Sep 3 2007, 10:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1647198"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Are you serious? You should edit that statement or get the hell out of NS's non-racist futuristic scifi.
You seem to beat down alot of peoples' ideas on a regular basis, why is that?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1647198:date=Sep 3 2007, 02:17 PM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Sep 3 2007, 02:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1647198"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Are you serious? You should edit that statement or get the hell out of NS's non-racist futuristic scifi.
You seem to beat down alot of peoples' ideas on a regular basis, why is that?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe he can't come up with his own. Kinda like a theater critic.
Anyways, the "arcady" style movement is nice, and I do like it for the aliens. Marines, however, shouldn't continue to have such an advantage, as good marine players can easily out-run a less adept skulk. In my eye, the reward for being a skilled marine should be that the aliens don't get close enough because you shot them down, not because you can beat them in a foot race.
Its true that the current marine movement can give a good marine a decent advantage but the fact of the matter is, NS is a very jumpy game, and when you see a battle, people are running and jumping all around the room-- aliens and marines. Rather than making marines slower and less maneuverable, maybe make aliens, namely skulks, be able to strafe faster so they can out-maneuver marines better. I would much rather have to move all around, jump off walls, and strafe etc to close in on a jumpy marine rather than just run at him and maybe jump a few times to get a kill.
<!--quoteo(post=1647198:date=Sep 4 2007, 12:17 AM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Sep 4 2007, 12:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1647198"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Are you serious? You should edit that statement or get the hell out of NS's non-racist futuristic scifi.
You seem to beat down alot of peoples' ideas on a regular basis, why is that?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hey hey hey,
I'm pretty sure I've posted a few nicely thought out suggestions.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=102442" target="_blank">Nodes and Infestation</a> <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=102484" target="_blank">New Upgrade Style</a> <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=102458" target="_blank">Turret Game Dynamics</a>
Not to mention some nice little drawings here and there!
Also, it was a joke. Stop being so politically correct.
I don't beat down peoples ideas, i just say what i think. I don't think sprinting is a good idea. And others agree.
I agree, you have thought some posts through, and those are fun to read. Please, more of those. Keep in mind, at the time of the post I had yet to read one of the detailed posts, I had seen a number of "This idea sucks" & "Why isn't this exactly like NS1" (not necissarily just from you either) and it was getting on my nerves. Still it seems others were having their nerves touched too it seems, so please do be careful, I am sure we all have some constructive criticism to throw out there.
<!--quoteo(post=1647880:date=Sep 6 2007, 07:47 PM:name=Stars)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Stars @ Sep 6 2007, 07:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1647880"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, it was a joke. Stop being so politically correct.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here's the thing, I wasn't being politically correct, it was just a bad joke. When I read it, I right away thought of the NS1 marines that have a darker skin tone and it struck me as rather demeaning. I geuss I just find jokes with man-fades knocking on the door more funny than "black man with steroids". Please try to avoid such "jokes" (how is that not demeaning?) in the future, I don't really see how it adds any value to Natural Selection.
Did I mention I wish we could have multiple kinds of movement in NS2, based on what kind of armor you are wearing? The armor I picture would be: 1) Ninja, for most acrobatic (free running aka parkour anyone?) but lack of support for medium or heavy weapons and teeny tiny armor protection with a small advantage in speed, camouflage, and visibility. 2) Basic, starting spawn armor, no advatages or disadvantages. Not the acrobat of "Ninja" armor, but still able to jump and move with no penalties but no advantages either. 3) Medium, support for heavy weapons and small add-ons, speed not decreased but mobility is. 4) Jet Pack, increased speed and mobility, at the cost of protection and no heavy weapon support. 5) Heavy, decrease in speed and lack of mobility, maxed out protection, support for all heavy objects.
Mobility refers to jumping, strafing, diving, sliding, and sprinting.
Why I think this works and still maintains NS1's arcade like movement, is because it would cater to a players prefered play style. Personally, I think Medium Armor or Heavy Armor would be what I would play with, as I would desire to be a Engineer or Medic type role on the team.
<!--quoteo(post=1647903:date=Sep 7 2007, 01:01 PM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Sep 7 2007, 01:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1647903"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree, you have thought some posts through, and those are fun to read. Please, more of those. Keep in mind, at the time of the post I had yet to read one of the detailed posts, I had seen a number of "This idea sucks" & "Why isn't this exactly like NS1" (not necissarily just from you either) and it was getting on my nerves. Still it seems others were having their nerves touched too it seems, so please do be careful, I am sure we all have some constructive criticism to throw out there. Here's the thing, I wasn't being politically correct, it was just a bad joke. When I read it, I right away thought of the NS1 marines that have a darker skin tone and it struck me as rather demeaning. I geuss I just find jokes with man-fades knocking on the door more funny than "black man with steroids". Please try to avoid such "jokes" (how is that not demeaning?) in the future, I don't really see how it adds any value to Natural Selection.
Did I mention I wish we could have multiple kinds of movement in NS2, based on what kind of armor you are wearing? The armor I picture would be: 1) Ninja, for most acrobatic (free running aka parkour anyone?) but lack of support for medium or heavy weapons and teeny tiny armor protection with a small advantage in speed, camouflage, and visibility. 2) Basic, starting spawn armor, no advatages or disadvantages. Not the acrobat of "Ninja" armor, but still able to jump and move with no penalties but no advantages either. 3) Medium, support for heavy weapons and small add-ons, speed not decreased but mobility is. 4) Jet Pack, increased speed and mobility, at the cost of protection and no heavy weapon support. 5) Heavy, decrease in speed and lack of mobility, maxed out protection, support for all heavy objects.
Mobility refers to jumping, strafing, diving, sliding, and sprinting.
Why I think this works and still maintains NS1's arcade like movement, is because it would cater to a players prefered play style. Personally, I think Medium Armor or Heavy Armor would be what I would play with, as I would desire to be a Engineer or Medic type role on the team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Okay, well i formally apologize, and will edit the post. I'm just not racist at all, and very easy going on the topic.
Okay, now to your different armor types, I somewhat disagree. Ninja just wouldnt fit the scifi feel.
But however, saying "medium" gave me an idea.
In a game called Planetside, which i doubt youve played.
You have Standard Exosuit (armor) and Re-Inforced Exosuit. The reinforced exosuit increases armor a bit, decreases speed, and allows use of heavier weapons.
Basically im proposing that once the commander upgrades Re-inforced, marines get a choice of what armor to... spawn with? reinforced wouldnt be much slow, or have that much more armor, but only reinforced could use GL or HMG, or alternatively, only standard could use GL or HMG, to even it out and give marines a bit more variety.
And armor would be like Standard 30 50 70 90 Reinforced 45 65 85 105
Of course, heavy and jetpack wouldnt change. and jetpacks would have standard armor amount.
<!--quoteo(post=1647929:date=Sep 7 2007, 02:36 AM:name=Stars)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Stars @ Sep 7 2007, 02:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1647929"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Okay, well i formally apologize, and will edit the post. I'm just not racist at all, and very easy going on the topic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Cool, personally I'll consider the matter forgiven and forgotten. We can all personally "upgrade". <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" /> <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Okay, now to your different armor types, I somewhat disagree. Ninja just wouldnt fit the scifi feel.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sorry, if the word "ninja" doesn't work for you, then use Ghost or Recon or Scout ... Basicly, the idea came from two things I've noticed: 1) When players I've seen it used in game chat, its called "ninja a hive" and get a phase gate in unknown to the Kharaa. 2) A desire to see a more acrobatic marine, since we know humans can be rather agile and some players love to bunny hop, what if there was a really agile marine who looks alot cooler moving than the bunny hop. <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But however, saying "medium" gave me an idea.
In a game called Planetside, which i doubt youve played.
You have Standard Exosuit (armor) and Re-Inforced Exosuit. The reinforced exosuit increases armor a bit, decreases speed, and allows use of heavier weapons.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Be careful, don't assume I haven't played Planetside, I was involved in the Beta testing. I know what you mean by the different suits and the different available gear load outs. Its something I agree with because it allows players to play up to the strengths in their play styles, plus it augments the team work, and as well opens up new avenues of the technological tree for TSA marines.
In alot of ways, too often it seems the TSA really penny pinched and sent the marines in with little better than a pointy stick. <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Basically im proposing that once the commander upgrades Re-inforced, marines get a choice of what armor to... spawn with? reinforced wouldnt be much slow, or have that much more armor, but only reinforced could use GL or HMG, or alternatively, only standard could use GL or HMG, to even it out and give marines a bit more variety.
And armor would be like Standard 30 50 70 90 Reinforced 45 65 85 105
Of course, heavy and jetpack wouldnt change. and jetpacks would have standard armor amount.
just an idea.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Just a thought, but why would anyone go for the basic armor? Is there enough of a disadvantage to "re-inforced" medium armor? My thoughts would be for the ability to carry more or heavier items into combat, you would be a little slower in walking, climbing, sprinting, and strafing, plus less height to your jump, be louder in its steps, and no access to slide, dive, wall jump, or anything else remotely acrobatic. Probably wouldn't let them put on a jet either, I would consider that different type of armor altogether with its own values and attributes.
By the same token, I would throw items that can be picked up and carried, including weapons, into categories of light, medium, and heavy. The lightest armor protection, ninja, would only be able to carry light items, basic would carry up to medium, medium up to heavy (but with only slightly better protection than medium but faster speeds than heavy), and heavy up to well heavy. Not sure if I would make jet only up to light or medium.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1647970:date=Sep 7 2007, 11:43 AM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Sep 7 2007, 11:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1647970"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->By the same token, I would throw items that can be picked up and carried, including weapons, into categories of light, medium, and heavy. The lightest armor protection, ninja, would only be able to carry light items, basic would carry up to medium, medium up to heavy (but with only slightly better protection than medium but faster speeds than heavy), and heavy up to well heavy. Not sure if I would make jet only up to light or medium.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wouldn't reduce the players to classes, at least not the weapon choices. Comms have a lot to worry about all ready and making sure the marine has the correct armor type before dropping a weapon seems overly restrictive. You want the comm deciding the loadout of a team more often then not since he has the master plan or strategy in mind.
Granted, it's contentious where the power for certain things should lie since the comm and marines need to work together. However, restricting upgrade paths is dangerous because you lend yourself to hard counters and although arguably there aren't many viable tactics in NS, it is not to difficult to switch from one to the other quickly, and they tend to all complement each other rather than stand alone. I'm worried that you'll spend so much time following a single path even though you need versatility. I'll try and explain it better later.
The only issue I see with the different armor types you guys are suggesting, is a possible problem with the "ninja" armor. No armor, no matter what it's intended use, should make the marine more maneuverable then the aliens. While I think the idea of a light, scout type armor might be good, possibly having very low armor, but disrupts the hive sights ability to track him automatically (via Scent of Fear) but not targeted (via parasite) and silences his steps. I wouldn't like to see him become a fast walking bouncy ball that good players can use to hop circles around onos and dodge skulks. I think the armor classes shouldn't be restricted on what weapons they can carry but maybe limiting their ammo capacity (there spare ammo, not the magazine size) to reflect the fact that they are being equipped as a "lighter" class. They might also not be able to pick up or start with some kinds of extra equipment as well. (like really light armor classes can't carry welders around) This way, yeah you can take that HMG, but is it worth it if your gonna run dry really quick and then the commander is gonna have to drop ammo constantly, not to mention if you get several guys running around fighting front line in lighter armor (which seems to me to NOT be what they are intended for), some of them are gonna die because they won't be able to reload when your on the other side of the map dropping those guys ammo cause you can't sort out all the requests your getting. Certain guns, like the standard LMG would never have there spare ammo reduced, because it is a light weapon. This would put limits on the armor types without forcing the players down certain upgrade paths and keeping the marines able to make flexible choices.
<!--quoteo(post=1647981:date=Sep 7 2007, 11:07 AM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Sep 7 2007, 11:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1647981"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I wouldn't reduce the players to classes, at least not the weapon choices. Comms have a lot to worry about all ready and making sure the marine has the correct armor type before dropping a weapon seems overly restrictive. You want the comm deciding the loadout of a team more often then not since he has the master plan or strategy in mind.
Granted, it's contentious where the power for certain things should lie since the comm and marines need to work together. However, restricting upgrade paths is dangerous because you lend yourself to hard counters and although arguably there aren't many viable tactics in NS, it is not to difficult to switch from one to the other quickly, and they tend to all complement each other rather than stand alone. I'm worried that you'll spend so much time following a single path even though you need versatility. I'll try and explain it better later.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't worry about it too much, I actually have a pretty good idea where you are coming from on this. Its why I am an advocate of the Commander deciding the technology branches taken, but leave the loadout up to the marine to pick for themselves from a menu at the needed structure. If the commander needs a certain role, he either finds a volunteer who has flagged themselves as desiring that role or assigns the role by giving permission to all or a specific player to be able to take a particular tool, thus controling the flow of resources dedicated to the loadout without having to drop the stuff themselves. I always hated it when a shotgun I intended for my front line guy ended up in the hands of the player who is always running off and dying. A question I always ask of an RTS is how can you make doing this simple and frustration free but with enough options that it can cater to my plans. Reduce micromanagement, increase options. I agree, it is a very tricky balance, one I would think would be greatly improved by some moving of power to people while increasing the commanders power at the same time.
But seeing as this is the "Arcadey Movement" thread, my main reason for bringing it up was to highlight movement styles of players, that they vary greatly from Bouncy to Duck N Cover to Tank Crawl. IMHO, NS2 could possibly cater to all our play styles with the idea of armor types.
<!--quoteo(post=1647996:date=Sep 7 2007, 12:05 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Sep 7 2007, 12:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1647996"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I also like <b>ShadowedEclipse</b>'s magazine idea.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry, which post was that again?
Edit: Ahh, must have missed it with the new posts button somehow or when I was typing up a reply it was posted, thanks for letting me know locallyunscene.
<!--quoteo(post=1648015:date=Sep 7 2007, 04:34 PM:name=BCSeph)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BCSeph @ Sep 7 2007, 04:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1648015"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->no armor should make a marine more maneuverable than he already is (in NS1).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why not?
Have you ever played Half-Life mods that let you dive, slide, roll, flip, wall run, wall jump, sprint, lean, go prone ...
I had alot of fun playing those games, and the skills needed were far more intuitive than NS1's bunny hop.
So again, I ask, if it suits a player's play style and it adds to team play in some fashion, why not?
<!--quoteo(post=1647970:date=Sep 8 2007, 01:43 AM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Sep 8 2007, 01:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1647970"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just a thought, but why would anyone go for the basic armor? Is there enough of a disadvantage to "re-inforced" medium armor?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was more thinking that the basic armor is lighter and you are more agile.
In the sense that reinforced, after you jump and land, you lose more speed. Disallowing bhopping.
Also maybe reinforced cant carry HMG ro GL as i said.
<!--quoteo(post=1647985:date=Sep 7 2007, 11:21 AM:name=ShadowedEclipse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ShadowedEclipse @ Sep 7 2007, 11:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1647985"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only issue I see with the different armor types you guys are suggesting, is a possible problem with the "ninja" armor. No armor, no matter what it's intended use, should make the marine more maneuverable then the aliens. While I think the idea of a light, scout type armor might be good, possibly having very low armor, but disrupts the hive sights ability to track him automatically (via Scent of Fear) but not targeted (via parasite) and silences his steps. I wouldn't like to see him become a fast walking bouncy ball that good players can use to hop circles around onos and dodge skulks. I think the armor classes shouldn't be restricted on what weapons they can carry but maybe limiting their ammo capacity (there spare ammo, not the magazine size) to reflect the fact that they are being equipped as a "lighter" class. They might also not be able to pick up or start with some kinds of extra equipment as well. (like really light armor classes can't carry welders around) This way, yeah you can take that HMG, but is it worth it if your gonna run dry really quick and then the commander is gonna have to drop ammo constantly, not to mention if you get several guys running around fighting front line in lighter armor (which seems to me to NOT be what they are intended for), some of them are gonna die because they won't be able to reload when your on the other side of the map dropping those guys ammo cause you can't sort out all the requests your getting. Certain guns, like the standard LMG would never have there spare ammo reduced, because it is a light weapon. This would put limits on the armor types without forcing the players down certain upgrade paths and keeping the marines able to make flexible choices.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is a very good post. I like the use of how much extra ammo can be carried in a kit too, but unfortunately don't see it as effective. This is because I do want to limit the marines in some ways, just so there isn't some uber combinations of two good things, like heavy weapons plus sneaky or heavy weapons plus speed.
In this way I would hope that a person who accepts being a parkour player also accepts that a skulk could beat them with one bite instead of two or three. And that it will also be harder for them to kill that skulk too, only armed with a pistol and a knife (or whatever else could be considered "light" weight). I would like there to be ups and downs to any style of play so that you have to rely on your teammates still ultimately. Makes the acrobatics really more of a way to run away if you were spotted trying to infiltrate than to stay and fight, then you tell your team mates what you found. Plus no matter how agile the marine acrobat is, I just don't see it possible to avoid area affects like spore.
I just want the ones who dislike bunnyhop and those who like it for the skill involved to be able to get along together on the same team and both feel that they are contributing to the team's success. Hope that makes sense.
Im sorry but I just cant see "parkour" in NS, especially with the fact that they're MARINES. The army has never had ANY sort of jumping troop in real life... It just wont feel like a real FPS with that, and more like I'm playing the Matrix Reloaded game.
<!--quoteo(post=1648344:date=Sep 9 2007, 02:30 PM:name=BCSeph)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BCSeph @ Sep 9 2007, 02:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1648344"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Im sorry but I just cant see "parkour" in NS, especially with the fact that they're MARINES. The army has never had ANY sort of jumping troop in real life... It just wont feel like a real FPS with that, and more like I'm playing the Matrix Reloaded game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But without bullet time or preset moves, parkour is alot harder to master. I know I never got the hang of it in Unreal Tournament with the wall jumping. There is a futuristic FPS with with aliens as well, and it still feels "FPS".
Also, the history of parkour is actually very interesting, it is rumoured to have started with the french military as they fled through their bombed out cities. Thus the french word, "parkour". So, while the obstacle course in basic may be the closest some militaries come to parkour, its not like it doesn't exist in military circles.
Acrobatics does have its place. For some humans they like to run and jump, others its a big set of nano-mech armor and very big nasty gun even though you plod along.
I personally think NS is way, way too slow as a marine; it's as if you have a stone attached to your feet or are really unfit. These are marines on drugs we are talking about, not fat kids who have been stuck in bed half their lives. They should be able to quick march from Mars to the moon in a couple of days, not decades. I don’t want to see slow marines, make the skulks faster if needs be.
If you play HL2DM or CS:S or BF2 or Unreal 2K4 (just to mention a few I have played in the last 6 months) you notice the difference straight away when playing NS, it made me really annoyed when I started playing NS again a while back and noticed how slow it is. It’s like as slow as Goldeneye 64, which I played the again the other night, which I noticed is slow and that’s pretty slow.
Games have (generally) had a shot of steroids since NS first came out; I want NS2 to get its jab.
So a good player can take advantage of the movement, a good player can take advantage of all kinds of things in all kinds of games, it’s what separates the good players from the n00bs. If it’s built in, it’s legal IMO. Eventually everyone learns the tricks if they stick with it. Just like learning to ride a bike, at first you fall off loads, and then you learn to balance and you eventually fight cancer and win the Tour de France a record number of times! Kinda like all things in life (without the cancer and Tour de France bit) you have to learn it to be really good at it.
<b>Just to make everything more believable.</b> I think I would probably have run around a whole NS map before a marine has got to the first RT, and the marines are supposed to be the ones on steroids. <b>They should have a sprint button </b>(don’t have the silly HL2 sound, its rubbish) <b>and keep a marginally slower backwards run </b>(not half speed as it seems to be now)<b>, because it’s logical.They should get charged energy for running or sprinting, because it makes sense. HA should walk slower,</b> not half speed though, because I imagine they would have hydraulics to help them move, but something like 25% off speed, I dunno what it is now...?
<b><!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->I love NS, but find the marines tediously slow in comparison to any game I am playing at the moment; and indescribably unbelievable in comparison to the speed I and everyone I know walks at.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b>
Please, please, please make the marines walk a lot faster, at least twice as fast I would say (just from a random guess), but keep the difference in speed between the aliens and marines. If the marines can move quickly (...move normally, in real life), the skulks should move super quickly.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
I don't think NS marines are that slow at all. In comparison to UT or Quake games maybe they are slow, but they're faster than Halo, CS, and most single player games.
NS isn't pure twitch gaming, but saying it's slow is stretching it.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1648751:date=Sep 11 2007, 01:19 PM:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tjosan @ Sep 11 2007, 01:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1648751"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Mno, NS marines are slower than players in CS.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I find CS gameplay MUCH slower than NS. I suppose it's possible the model speeds are slower for marines(I would want verification of that), but in terms of gameplay CS is slower and my circle of friends who play both agree.
Have you ever played Half-Life mods that let you dive, slide, roll, flip, wall run, wall jump, sprint, lean, go prone ...
I had alot of fun playing those games, and the skills needed were far more intuitive than NS1's bunny hop.
So again, I ask, if it suits a player's play style and it adds to team play in some fashion, why not?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The thing is, those modes of movement are really meant to evade projectile fire temporarily with the end goal of you ending up in a position to _return fire_. It doesn't matter as much if you end up prone because you can still defend yourself effectively.
Going to the ground in a dive with a pack of dog-like creatures would probably be about the worst possible thing you could do - realistically speaking, what chance do you have on the ground?
I for one would like to see NS move in the direction of a tactical shooter. Marines have weapons that behave somewhat as you'd expect (recoil etc) - and aliens move at incredible speeds. Its speed and close-range power/ambush versus superior firepower and sharpshooting/positioning; that is the essence of any classic aliens vs marines scenario.
For Marines sprinting makes sense - losing the ability to shoot while doing so and having some sort of stamina counter.
The idea of Marines doing some sort of "swan lake" rendition by hopping around however is certainly going to steer me far away from NS2. That's largely the reason I stopped playing NS1.
This was a very good post and I felt I needed to give it some thought before I responded, I hope that comes across.
<!--quoteo(post=1648899:date=Sep 11 2007, 10:27 PM:name=FilthyLarry)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(FilthyLarry @ Sep 11 2007, 10:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1648899"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The thing is, those modes of movement are really meant to evade projectile fire temporarily with the end goal of you ending up in a position to _return fire_. It doesn't matter as much if you end up prone because you can still defend yourself effectively.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Very good point, which is what makes the next confusing to me.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Going to the ground in a dive with a pack of dog-like creatures would probably be about the worst possible thing you could do - realistically speaking, what chance do you have on the ground?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Going to the ground might put you out of the path of a Leap. A dive and roll to the side might put you out of the way of that Charge. A wall run or wall jump may get you out of a dead end.
You said it yourself "It doesn't matter as much if you end up prone because you can still defend yourself effectively." The point of being agile for a marine is defense, as such I would propose only the lightest of weapons would be available to a acrobatic marine.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I for one would like to see NS move in the direction of a tactical shooter. Marines have weapons that behave somewhat as you'd expect (recoil etc) - and aliens move at incredible speeds. Its speed and close-range power/ambush versus superior firepower and sharpshooting/positioning; that is the essence of any classic aliens vs marines scenario.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And players who like to bunny hop? What about the player who "ninjas" a hive for the Commander?
I just want you to know, I agree with you, I think you have the essence pretty close to spot on, but please consider those support roles in this epic battle. I think it would be better to add on to that the essence of this gameplay is what you stated plus each side seeking to adapt with strategies and tactics.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For Marines sprinting makes sense - losing the ability to shoot while doing so and having some sort of stamina counter.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Roger that!
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The idea of Marines doing some sort of "swan lake" rendition by hopping around however is certainly going to steer me far away from NS2. That's largely the reason I stopped playing NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The bunny hoping does steer me away too. But what would it take for you to not be steered away by the Sam Fisher's and John Woo's of the marine team? Acrobats are a part of humanity as we know it, how could we include those players "personas" in a way that doesn't drive away the supporting and heavy marine roles?
I was hoping by making the acrobat vulnerable, it would balance it out. What do you think?
I am personally not a big fan of flips/rolls/what not in FPS, mainly because they are too often done incredibly badly and look stupid. Fair enough it would make scenes to be able to do things like diving out of the way of acid rockets and flying skulks, but I can imagine it would just look rubbish and be steering the NS universe in a completely different direction, IMO.
BCSeph: have you played any other FPS lately, the NS marines are pretty slow in comparison. I imagine this was probably to do with the steam engine and the general speed of HL (which feels a little faster than NS) and CS. But I imagine it was also to do with the developers wanting to keep up tension and make the gap between aliens and marines speed obvious. Not that I'm complaining about the NS speeds, just that they feel slow in comparison to other FPS.
HL2 has defiantly improved it's speed. Not sure about CS:S. Unreal 2k4 just feel like you are running the whole time, and that probably because you are. But if you look at marines legs as they walk (they never run) in NS it often seems a little bit wrong.
I would like to see marines that look correct as they move, running between points, bringing guns up when holding a point or scanning an area, dropping their guns to the hip/waist/belly when firing off a full clip, crouching behind cover, laying down on their front when they need to get out of the way of friendly fire coming from behind them (but still want to shoot incoming aliens), even things like going up to corners and just leaning their heads out. All of these things would make the marines appear more like a well oiled machine, without making them look like the TSA circus. I always imagined the marines as a futuristic version of regular army and an extremely elite group like the SAS sent in to destroy an unknown threat.
I would rather see them getting the ‘room clearing’ part of the Marines right before they move onto the ‘ninja’ part, which I’m not even sure should be there.
After all, they are there to clear rooms (of infestation) not assassinate a rival warlord.
<!--quoteo(post=1649272:date=Sep 13 2007, 09:57 AM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Sep 13 2007, 09:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1649272"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This was a very good post and I felt I needed to give it some thought before I responded, I hope that comes across. Very good point, which is what makes the next confusing to me.
Going to the ground might put you out of the path of a Leap. A dive and roll to the side might put you out of the way of that Charge. A wall run or wall jump may get you out of a dead end.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I appreciate you taking the time to put your thoughts on this into a good response. It it always nice to have a constructive exchange of ideas.
I do agree that in certain situations having the option to take some evasive action like a "dive" would make sense and be useful for self-preservation. I do feel though that these situations would probably be the exception and in general would not buy all that much against a melee attacker (see below).
<!--quoteo(post=1649272:date=Sep 13 2007, 09:57 AM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Sep 13 2007, 09:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1649272"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You said it yourself "It doesn't matter as much if you end up prone because you can still defend yourself effectively." The point of being agile for a marine is defense, as such I would propose only the lightest of weapons would be available to a acrobatic marine. And players who like to bunny hop? What about the player who "ninjas" a hive for the Commander?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Reading back on my post now I can see that I "finished the thought in my head" and so will need to clarify. What I meant is that ending up prone would still allow you to defend yourself effectively against an opponent who engaging you at some distance.
The problem I was alluding to is being swarmed while you're on the ground - at least standing you have some - albeit pretty limited - options (backpedalling etc.) whereas on the ground you are pretty much snack-food for quick moving melee i.e. bite/claw attackers who can easily overrun you.
I think the "ninja" concept is interesting... but should be implemented differently (see below). Bunny-hop I feel has no place for a marine as it is just too destructive to the game's atmosphere IMO; there is just no way I can "suspend my disbelief" on this one.
<!--quoteo(post=1649272:date=Sep 13 2007, 09:57 AM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Sep 13 2007, 09:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1649272"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I just want you to know, I agree with you, I think you have the essence pretty close to spot on, but please consider those support roles in this epic battle. I think it would be better to add on to that the essence of this gameplay is what you stated plus each side seeking to adapt with strategies and tactics.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think we are indeed actually more on the same page than off. I agree that there should be interesting support roles to play... I just think any support role should still be a "good fit" atmospherically speaking.
<!--quoteo(post=1649272:date=Sep 13 2007, 09:57 AM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Sep 13 2007, 09:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1649272"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The bunny hoping does steer me away too. But what would it take for you to not be steered away by the Sam Fisher's and John Woo's of the marine team? Acrobats are a part of humanity as we know it, how could we include those players "personas" in a way that doesn't drive away the supporting and heavy marine roles?
I was hoping by making the acrobat vulnerable, it would balance it out. What do you think?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The interesting thing - is that actually, I love Jon woo! I'm a huge fan of "Hard-Boiled" (one of my favourite movies of all time) and have enjoyed playing mods where you can flip/roll etc like Action Half-life and the Specialists. So I'm not against acrobatics in a FPS at all - at least not in any general sense. But...
I know I keep mentioning this, but it probably is the crux of my argument really - and this is atmosphere. I feel like there is a certain style that the devs were aiming for when they envisioned NS - and that is one of a semi-realistic / dark / sci-fi thriller. Think "Aliens" and you'll know exactly where I'm coming from.
If Sigourney Weaver made like "Chow Yun Fat" in Aliens... it would just be odd. At least IMO very odd - out of place. I would find Marines doing acrobatics exactly like this.
You might be thinking more "Starship Trooper" types... which is fair enough - but even there when it came down to it the real focus of a marine was to be able to shoot, and shoot well - and also alot of combat took place outdoors (room to move). My thinking is that it just doesn't buy enough for the cost - and just isn't something I can see Marines being trained to do given the cramped environments in which they'll most likely be fighting.
I mean I think you could probably balance something like the "acrobat" - as you say - making it lightly armored etc. but I wouldn't endorse it as I think an important concept to preserve in the game is the "differences" between the two sides. Acrobat seems like making a Marine too "alien"-like.
As INKEDOUT mentioned - I too see the Marines as being more like the SAS or some other special forces group. If I were to suggest something to "ninja" a hive - it would most likely be a "Sapper" - someone with explosives that could move silently (possibly cloaked) and destroy enemy defenses that way - and I think this would probably be a concept that "fits" somewhat better with Military type thinking.
So for players that really do enjoy flipping / leaping etc. I would say they should stick to playing aliens. The crazier the aliens can move around the better! As a player I would want to develop my skills as a marine by learning to track and shoot aliens; playing aliens I would want to learn how to string together fantastic leaps that culiminate in biting someone's head off.
Oh, sorry, I forgot too add prone is helpful when having a partner fire over you.
I agree that any player who lacks mobility in a melee fight is going to be Kharaa food.
On the point of atmosphere, I think its important to remember that it has been reported that NS1 Developers "supported" bunny hopping being in the game and had no desire to remove it then. If that is any indication, while it broke the atmosphere for you and me, the Devs must have thought it fit.
Since I don't like bunny hopping but it apparently has a place in NS1, so I am geussing something will be in NS2, I am trying to get it replaced with something better, something that will hopefully be less or not at all atmosphere breaking.
I hope we can come up with something the Devs will find a relatively low cost solution.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1649401:date=Sep 13 2007, 10:54 PM:name=FilthyLarry)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(FilthyLarry @ Sep 13 2007, 10:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1649401"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You might be thinking more "Starship Trooper" types... which is fair enough - but even there when it came down to it the real focus of a marine was to be able to shoot, and shoot well - and also a lot of combat took place outdoors (room to move). My thinking is that it just doesn't buy enough for the cost - and just isn't something I can see Marines being trained to do given the cramped environments in which they'll most likely be fighting.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Honestly, when I first starting playing NS I thought the play style would be like Aliens for the marines. I would say that when you play as Kharaa it does feel like aliens, but the marines mind set is more like starship troopers(the book, which is what I assume you're referring to). For those that haven't read it I'll give a summary of what I mean. In the book the MI(mobile infantry) wear highly specialized exoskeleton type jumpsuits that are armed to the gills. They react on instinct most of the time but use strategy to put themselves in advantageous situations. I'd say this gameplay style is very close to what NS marines actually do, firing on instinct but trying to get the upper hand through strategy. I know this is a very general definition but I think using Aliens as a reference for play style is too shallow even if the atmosphere is great. What it ultimately boils down to is no matter how you craft the marines the play style of marines will be dictated by the people who play them, and standing still when a alien is barreling towards you doesn't make sense because you're not going to be frozen in fear like the characters in the movies are.
Disclaimer: I suck at bunny hopping and I'm glad that the dev team is going to try to replace it, but I still think my point stands.
Comments
I'm not really for a sprint key per say, but I think your logic is a bit flawed. The sound of a marine running would be a useful noise, like a marine reloading or a gorge's footsteps. If you replaced the sound file you'd be missing out on information when you're on kharaa.
<!--quoteo(post=1647198:date=Sep 3 2007, 10:17 AM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Sep 3 2007, 10:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1647198"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Are you serious? You should edit that statement or get the hell out of NS's non-racist futuristic scifi.
You seem to beat down alot of peoples' ideas on a regular basis, why is that?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
QFT.
You seem to beat down alot of peoples' ideas on a regular basis, why is that?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe he can't come up with his own. Kinda like a theater critic.
Anyways, the "arcady" style movement is nice, and I do like it for the aliens. Marines, however, shouldn't continue to have such an advantage, as good marine players can easily out-run a less adept skulk. In my eye, the reward for being a skilled marine should be that the aliens don't get close enough because you shot them down, not because you can beat them in a foot race.
You seem to beat down alot of peoples' ideas on a regular basis, why is that?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hey hey hey,
I'm pretty sure I've posted a few nicely thought out suggestions.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=102442" target="_blank">Nodes and Infestation</a>
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=102484" target="_blank">New Upgrade Style</a>
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=102458" target="_blank">Turret Game Dynamics</a>
Not to mention some nice little drawings here and there!
Also, it was a joke. Stop being so politically correct.
I don't beat down peoples ideas, i just say what i think.
I don't think sprinting is a good idea. And others agree.
<!--quoteo(post=1647880:date=Sep 6 2007, 07:47 PM:name=Stars)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Stars @ Sep 6 2007, 07:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1647880"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, it was a joke. Stop being so politically correct.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here's the thing, I wasn't being politically correct, it was just a bad joke. When I read it, I right away thought of the NS1 marines that have a darker skin tone and it struck me as rather demeaning. I geuss I just find jokes with man-fades knocking on the door more funny than "black man with steroids". Please try to avoid such "jokes" (how is that not demeaning?) in the future, I don't really see how it adds any value to Natural Selection.
Did I mention I wish we could have multiple kinds of movement in NS2, based on what kind of armor you are wearing? The armor I picture would be:
1) Ninja, for most acrobatic (free running aka parkour anyone?) but lack of support for medium or heavy weapons and teeny tiny armor protection with a small advantage in speed, camouflage, and visibility.
2) Basic, starting spawn armor, no advatages or disadvantages. Not the acrobat of "Ninja" armor, but still able to jump and move with no penalties but no advantages either.
3) Medium, support for heavy weapons and small add-ons, speed not decreased but mobility is.
4) Jet Pack, increased speed and mobility, at the cost of protection and no heavy weapon support.
5) Heavy, decrease in speed and lack of mobility, maxed out protection, support for all heavy objects.
Mobility refers to jumping, strafing, diving, sliding, and sprinting.
Why I think this works and still maintains NS1's arcade like movement, is because it would cater to a players prefered play style. Personally, I think Medium Armor or Heavy Armor would be what I would play with, as I would desire to be a Engineer or Medic type role on the team.
Here's the thing, I wasn't being politically correct, it was just a bad joke. When I read it, I right away thought of the NS1 marines that have a darker skin tone and it struck me as rather demeaning. I geuss I just find jokes with man-fades knocking on the door more funny than "black man with steroids". Please try to avoid such "jokes" (how is that not demeaning?) in the future, I don't really see how it adds any value to Natural Selection.
Did I mention I wish we could have multiple kinds of movement in NS2, based on what kind of armor you are wearing? The armor I picture would be:
1) Ninja, for most acrobatic (free running aka parkour anyone?) but lack of support for medium or heavy weapons and teeny tiny armor protection with a small advantage in speed, camouflage, and visibility.
2) Basic, starting spawn armor, no advatages or disadvantages. Not the acrobat of "Ninja" armor, but still able to jump and move with no penalties but no advantages either.
3) Medium, support for heavy weapons and small add-ons, speed not decreased but mobility is.
4) Jet Pack, increased speed and mobility, at the cost of protection and no heavy weapon support.
5) Heavy, decrease in speed and lack of mobility, maxed out protection, support for all heavy objects.
Mobility refers to jumping, strafing, diving, sliding, and sprinting.
Why I think this works and still maintains NS1's arcade like movement, is because it would cater to a players prefered play style. Personally, I think Medium Armor or Heavy Armor would be what I would play with, as I would desire to be a Engineer or Medic type role on the team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Okay, well i formally apologize, and will edit the post.
I'm just not racist at all, and very easy going on the topic.
Okay, now to your different armor types,
I somewhat disagree. Ninja just wouldnt fit the scifi feel.
But however, saying "medium" gave me an idea.
In a game called Planetside, which i doubt youve played.
You have Standard Exosuit (armor) and Re-Inforced Exosuit.
The reinforced exosuit increases armor a bit, decreases speed, and allows use of heavier weapons.
Basically im proposing that once the commander upgrades Re-inforced, marines get a choice of what armor to... spawn with?
reinforced wouldnt be much slow, or have that much more armor, but only reinforced could use GL or HMG,
or alternatively, only standard could use GL or HMG, to even it out and give marines a bit more variety.
And armor would be like
Standard 30 50 70 90
Reinforced 45 65 85 105
Of course, heavy and jetpack wouldnt change.
and jetpacks would have standard armor amount.
just an idea.
I'm just not racist at all, and very easy going on the topic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Cool, personally I'll consider the matter forgiven and forgotten. We can all personally "upgrade". <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Okay, now to your different armor types,
I somewhat disagree. Ninja just wouldnt fit the scifi feel.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry, if the word "ninja" doesn't work for you, then use Ghost or Recon or Scout ... Basicly, the idea came from two things I've noticed: 1) When players I've seen it used in game chat, its called "ninja a hive" and get a phase gate in unknown to the Kharaa. 2) A desire to see a more acrobatic marine, since we know humans can be rather agile and some players love to bunny hop, what if there was a really agile marine who looks alot cooler moving than the bunny hop.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But however, saying "medium" gave me an idea.
In a game called Planetside, which i doubt youve played.
You have Standard Exosuit (armor) and Re-Inforced Exosuit.
The reinforced exosuit increases armor a bit, decreases speed, and allows use of heavier weapons.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Be careful, don't assume I haven't played Planetside, I was involved in the Beta testing. I know what you mean by the different suits and the different available gear load outs. Its something I agree with because it allows players to play up to the strengths in their play styles, plus it augments the team work, and as well opens up new avenues of the technological tree for TSA marines.
In alot of ways, too often it seems the TSA really penny pinched and sent the marines in with little better than a pointy stick.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Basically im proposing that once the commander upgrades Re-inforced, marines get a choice of what armor to... spawn with?
reinforced wouldnt be much slow, or have that much more armor, but only reinforced could use GL or HMG,
or alternatively, only standard could use GL or HMG, to even it out and give marines a bit more variety.
And armor would be like
Standard 30 50 70 90
Reinforced 45 65 85 105
Of course, heavy and jetpack wouldnt change.
and jetpacks would have standard armor amount.
just an idea.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just a thought, but why would anyone go for the basic armor? Is there enough of a disadvantage to "re-inforced" medium armor? My thoughts would be for the ability to carry more or heavier items into combat, you would be a little slower in walking, climbing, sprinting, and strafing, plus less height to your jump, be louder in its steps, and no access to slide, dive, wall jump, or anything else remotely acrobatic. Probably wouldn't let them put on a jet either, I would consider that different type of armor altogether with its own values and attributes.
By the same token, I would throw items that can be picked up and carried, including weapons, into categories of light, medium, and heavy. The lightest armor protection, ninja, would only be able to carry light items, basic would carry up to medium, medium up to heavy (but with only slightly better protection than medium but faster speeds than heavy), and heavy up to well heavy. Not sure if I would make jet only up to light or medium.
I wouldn't reduce the players to classes, at least not the weapon choices. Comms have a lot to worry about all ready and making sure the marine has the correct armor type before dropping a weapon seems overly restrictive. You want the comm deciding the loadout of a team more often then not since he has the master plan or strategy in mind.
Granted, it's contentious where the power for certain things should lie since the comm and marines need to work together. However, restricting upgrade paths is dangerous because you lend yourself to hard counters and although arguably there aren't many viable tactics in NS, it is not to difficult to switch from one to the other quickly, and they tend to all complement each other rather than stand alone. I'm worried that you'll spend so much time following a single path even though you need versatility. I'll try and explain it better later.
Granted, it's contentious where the power for certain things should lie since the comm and marines need to work together. However, restricting upgrade paths is dangerous because you lend yourself to hard counters and although arguably there aren't many viable tactics in NS, it is not to difficult to switch from one to the other quickly, and they tend to all complement each other rather than stand alone. I'm worried that you'll spend so much time following a single path even though you need versatility. I'll try and explain it better later.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't worry about it too much, I actually have a pretty good idea where you are coming from on this. Its why I am an advocate of the Commander deciding the technology branches taken, but leave the loadout up to the marine to pick for themselves from a menu at the needed structure. If the commander needs a certain role, he either finds a volunteer who has flagged themselves as desiring that role or assigns the role by giving permission to all or a specific player to be able to take a particular tool, thus controling the flow of resources dedicated to the loadout without having to drop the stuff themselves. I always hated it when a shotgun I intended for my front line guy ended up in the hands of the player who is always running off and dying. A question I always ask of an RTS is how can you make doing this simple and frustration free but with enough options that it can cater to my plans. Reduce micromanagement, increase options. I agree, it is a very tricky balance, one I would think would be greatly improved by some moving of power to people while increasing the commanders power at the same time.
But seeing as this is the "Arcadey Movement" thread, my main reason for bringing it up was to highlight movement styles of players, that they vary greatly from Bouncy to Duck N Cover to Tank Crawl. IMHO, NS2 could possibly cater to all our play styles with the idea of armor types.
uhh, Vote: <!--coloro:#48D1CC--><span style="color:#48D1CC"><!--/coloro-->Yes<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->?
Sorry, which post was that again?
Edit: Ahh, must have missed it with the new posts button somehow or when I was typing up a reply it was posted, thanks for letting me know locallyunscene.
Why not?
Have you ever played Half-Life mods that let you dive, slide, roll, flip, wall run, wall jump, sprint, lean, go prone ...
I had alot of fun playing those games, and the skills needed were far more intuitive than NS1's bunny hop.
So again, I ask, if it suits a player's play style and it adds to team play in some fashion, why not?
I was more thinking that the basic armor is lighter and you are more agile.
In the sense that reinforced, after you jump and land, you lose more speed.
Disallowing bhopping.
Also maybe reinforced cant carry HMG ro GL as i said.
mmhm, just a bit of variation.
That is a very good post. I like the use of how much extra ammo can be carried in a kit too, but unfortunately don't see it as effective. This is because I do want to limit the marines in some ways, just so there isn't some uber combinations of two good things, like heavy weapons plus sneaky or heavy weapons plus speed.
In this way I would hope that a person who accepts being a parkour player also accepts that a skulk could beat them with one bite instead of two or three. And that it will also be harder for them to kill that skulk too, only armed with a pistol and a knife (or whatever else could be considered "light" weight). I would like there to be ups and downs to any style of play so that you have to rely on your teammates still ultimately. Makes the acrobatics really more of a way to run away if you were spotted trying to infiltrate than to stay and fight, then you tell your team mates what you found. Plus no matter how agile the marine acrobat is, I just don't see it possible to avoid area affects like spore.
I just want the ones who dislike bunnyhop and those who like it for the skill involved to be able to get along together on the same team and both feel that they are contributing to the team's success. Hope that makes sense.
But without bullet time or preset moves, parkour is alot harder to master. I know I never got the hang of it in Unreal Tournament with the wall jumping. There is a futuristic FPS with with aliens as well, and it still feels "FPS".
Also, the history of parkour is actually very interesting, it is rumoured to have started with the french military as they fled through their bombed out cities. Thus the french word, "parkour". So, while the obstacle course in basic may be the closest some militaries come to parkour, its not like it doesn't exist in military circles.
Acrobatics does have its place. For some humans they like to run and jump, others its a big set of nano-mech armor and very big nasty gun even though you plod along.
If you play HL2DM or CS:S or BF2 or Unreal 2K4 (just to mention a few I have played in the last 6 months) you notice the difference straight away when playing NS, it made me really annoyed when I started playing NS again a while back and noticed how slow it is. It’s like as slow as Goldeneye 64, which I played the again the other night, which I noticed is slow and that’s pretty slow.
Games have (generally) had a shot of steroids since NS first came out; I want NS2 to get its jab.
So a good player can take advantage of the movement, a good player can take advantage of all kinds of things in all kinds of games, it’s what separates the good players from the n00bs. If it’s built in, it’s legal IMO. Eventually everyone learns the tricks if they stick with it. Just like learning to ride a bike, at first you fall off loads, and then you learn to balance and you eventually fight cancer and win the Tour de France a record number of times! Kinda like all things in life (without the cancer and Tour de France bit) you have to learn it to be really good at it.
<b>Just to make everything more believable.</b> I think I would probably have run around a whole NS map before a marine has got to the first RT, and the marines are supposed to be the ones on steroids. <b>They should have a sprint button </b>(don’t have the silly HL2 sound, its rubbish) <b>and keep a marginally slower backwards run </b>(not half speed as it seems to be now)<b>, because it’s logical.They should get charged energy for running or sprinting, because it makes sense. HA should walk slower,</b> not half speed though, because I imagine they would have hydraulics to help them move, but something like 25% off speed, I dunno what it is now...?
<b><!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->I love NS, but find the marines tediously slow in comparison to any game I am playing at the moment; and indescribably unbelievable in comparison to the speed I and everyone I know walks at.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b>
Please, please, please make the marines walk a lot faster, at least twice as fast I would say (just from a random guess), but keep the difference in speed between the aliens and marines. If the marines can move quickly (...move normally, in real life), the skulks should move super quickly.
NS isn't pure twitch gaming, but saying it's slow is stretching it.
I find CS gameplay MUCH slower than NS. I suppose it's possible the model speeds are slower for marines(I would want verification of that), but in terms of gameplay CS is slower and my circle of friends who play both agree.
not if you know how to move.
Have you ever played Half-Life mods that let you dive, slide, roll, flip, wall run, wall jump, sprint, lean, go prone ...
I had alot of fun playing those games, and the skills needed were far more intuitive than NS1's bunny hop.
So again, I ask, if it suits a player's play style and it adds to team play in some fashion, why not?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The thing is, those modes of movement are really meant to evade projectile fire temporarily with the end goal of you ending up in a position to _return fire_. It doesn't matter as much if you end up prone because you can still defend yourself effectively.
Going to the ground in a dive with a pack of dog-like creatures would probably be about the worst possible thing you could do - realistically speaking, what chance do you have on the ground?
I for one would like to see NS move in the direction of a tactical shooter. Marines have weapons that behave somewhat as you'd expect (recoil etc) - and aliens move at incredible speeds. Its speed and close-range power/ambush versus superior firepower and sharpshooting/positioning; that is the essence of any classic aliens vs marines scenario.
For Marines sprinting makes sense - losing the ability to shoot while doing so and having some sort of stamina counter.
The idea of Marines doing some sort of "swan lake" rendition by hopping around however is certainly going to steer me far away from NS2. That's largely the reason I stopped playing NS1.
<!--quoteo(post=1648899:date=Sep 11 2007, 10:27 PM:name=FilthyLarry)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(FilthyLarry @ Sep 11 2007, 10:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1648899"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The thing is, those modes of movement are really meant to evade projectile fire temporarily with the end goal of you ending up in a position to _return fire_. It doesn't matter as much if you end up prone because you can still defend yourself effectively.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Very good point, which is what makes the next confusing to me.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Going to the ground in a dive with a pack of dog-like creatures would probably be about the worst possible thing you could do - realistically speaking, what chance do you have on the ground?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Going to the ground might put you out of the path of a Leap. A dive and roll to the side might put you out of the way of that Charge. A wall run or wall jump may get you out of a dead end.
You said it yourself "It doesn't matter as much if you end up prone because you can still defend yourself effectively." The point of being agile for a marine is defense, as such I would propose only the lightest of weapons would be available to a acrobatic marine.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I for one would like to see NS move in the direction of a tactical shooter. Marines have weapons that behave somewhat as you'd expect (recoil etc) - and aliens move at incredible speeds. Its speed and close-range power/ambush versus superior firepower and sharpshooting/positioning; that is the essence of any classic aliens vs marines scenario.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And players who like to bunny hop? What about the player who "ninjas" a hive for the Commander?
I just want you to know, I agree with you, I think you have the essence pretty close to spot on, but please consider those support roles in this epic battle. I think it would be better to add on to that the essence of this gameplay is what you stated plus each side seeking to adapt with strategies and tactics.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For Marines sprinting makes sense - losing the ability to shoot while doing so and having some sort of stamina counter.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Roger that!
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The idea of Marines doing some sort of "swan lake" rendition by hopping around however is certainly going to steer me far away from NS2. That's largely the reason I stopped playing NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The bunny hoping does steer me away too. But what would it take for you to not be steered away by the Sam Fisher's and John Woo's of the marine team? Acrobats are a part of humanity as we know it, how could we include those players "personas" in a way that doesn't drive away the supporting and heavy marine roles?
I was hoping by making the acrobat vulnerable, it would balance it out. What do you think?
BCSeph: have you played any other FPS lately, the NS marines are pretty slow in comparison. I imagine this was probably to do with the steam engine and the general speed of HL (which feels a little faster than NS) and CS. But I imagine it was also to do with the developers wanting to keep up tension and make the gap between aliens and marines speed obvious. Not that I'm complaining about the NS speeds, just that they feel slow in comparison to other FPS.
HL2 has defiantly improved it's speed. Not sure about CS:S. Unreal 2k4 just feel like you are running the whole time, and that probably because you are. But if you look at marines legs as they walk (they never run) in NS it often seems a little bit wrong.
I would like to see marines that look correct as they move, running between points, bringing guns up when holding a point or scanning an area, dropping their guns to the hip/waist/belly when firing off a full clip, crouching behind cover, laying down on their front when they need to get out of the way of friendly fire coming from behind them (but still want to shoot incoming aliens), even things like going up to corners and just leaning their heads out. All of these things would make the marines appear more like a well oiled machine, without making them look like the TSA circus. I always imagined the marines as a futuristic version of regular army and an extremely elite group like the SAS sent in to destroy an unknown threat.
I would rather see them getting the ‘room clearing’ part of the Marines right before they move onto the ‘ninja’ part, which I’m not even sure should be there.
After all, they are there to clear rooms (of infestation) not assassinate a rival warlord.
Very good point, which is what makes the next confusing to me.
Going to the ground might put you out of the path of a Leap. A dive and roll to the side might put you out of the way of that Charge. A wall run or wall jump may get you out of a dead end.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I appreciate you taking the time to put your thoughts on this into a good response. It it always nice to have a constructive exchange of ideas.
I do agree that in certain situations having the option to take some evasive action like a "dive" would make sense and be useful for self-preservation. I do feel though that these situations would probably be the exception and in general would not buy all that much against a melee attacker (see below).
<!--quoteo(post=1649272:date=Sep 13 2007, 09:57 AM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Sep 13 2007, 09:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1649272"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You said it yourself "It doesn't matter as much if you end up prone because you can still defend yourself effectively." The point of being agile for a marine is defense, as such I would propose only the lightest of weapons would be available to a acrobatic marine.
And players who like to bunny hop? What about the player who "ninjas" a hive for the Commander?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Reading back on my post now I can see that I "finished the thought in my head" and so will need to clarify. What I meant is that ending up prone would still allow you to defend yourself effectively against an opponent who engaging you at some distance.
The problem I was alluding to is being swarmed while you're on the ground - at least standing you have some - albeit pretty limited - options (backpedalling etc.) whereas on the ground you are pretty much snack-food for quick moving melee i.e. bite/claw attackers who can easily overrun you.
I think the "ninja" concept is interesting... but should be implemented differently (see below). Bunny-hop I feel has no place for a marine as it is just too destructive to the game's atmosphere IMO; there is just no way I can "suspend my disbelief" on this one.
<!--quoteo(post=1649272:date=Sep 13 2007, 09:57 AM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Sep 13 2007, 09:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1649272"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I just want you to know, I agree with you, I think you have the essence pretty close to spot on, but please consider those support roles in this epic battle. I think it would be better to add on to that the essence of this gameplay is what you stated plus each side seeking to adapt with strategies and tactics.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think we are indeed actually more on the same page than off. I agree that there should be interesting support roles to play... I just think any support role should still be a "good fit" atmospherically speaking.
<!--quoteo(post=1649272:date=Sep 13 2007, 09:57 AM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Sep 13 2007, 09:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1649272"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The bunny hoping does steer me away too. But what would it take for you to not be steered away by the Sam Fisher's and John Woo's of the marine team? Acrobats are a part of humanity as we know it, how could we include those players "personas" in a way that doesn't drive away the supporting and heavy marine roles?
I was hoping by making the acrobat vulnerable, it would balance it out. What do you think?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The interesting thing - is that actually, I love Jon woo! I'm a huge fan of "Hard-Boiled" (one of my favourite movies of all time) and have enjoyed playing mods where you can flip/roll etc like Action Half-life and the Specialists. So I'm not against acrobatics in a FPS at all - at least not in any general sense. But...
I know I keep mentioning this, but it probably is the crux of my argument really - and this is atmosphere. I feel like there is a certain style that the devs were aiming for when they envisioned NS - and that is one of a semi-realistic / dark / sci-fi thriller. Think "Aliens" and you'll know exactly where I'm coming from.
If Sigourney Weaver made like "Chow Yun Fat" in Aliens... it would just be odd. At least IMO very odd - out of place. I would find Marines doing acrobatics exactly like this.
You might be thinking more "Starship Trooper" types... which is fair enough - but even there when it came down to it the real focus of a marine was to be able to shoot, and shoot well - and also alot of combat took place outdoors (room to move). My thinking is that it just doesn't buy enough for the cost - and just isn't something I can see Marines being trained to do given the cramped environments in which they'll most likely be fighting.
I mean I think you could probably balance something like the "acrobat" - as you say - making it lightly armored etc. but I wouldn't endorse it as I think an important concept to preserve in the game is the "differences" between the two sides. Acrobat seems like making a Marine too "alien"-like.
As INKEDOUT mentioned - I too see the Marines as being more like the SAS or some other special forces group. If I were to suggest something to "ninja" a hive - it would most likely be a "Sapper" - someone with explosives that could move silently (possibly cloaked) and destroy enemy defenses that way - and I think this would probably be a concept that "fits" somewhat better with Military type thinking.
So for players that really do enjoy flipping / leaping etc. I would say they should stick to playing aliens. The crazier the aliens can move around the better! As a player I would want to develop my skills as a marine by learning to track and shoot aliens; playing aliens I would want to learn how to string together fantastic leaps that culiminate in biting someone's head off.
Oh, sorry, I forgot too add prone is helpful when having a partner fire over you.
I agree that any player who lacks mobility in a melee fight is going to be Kharaa food.
On the point of atmosphere, I think its important to remember that it has been reported that NS1 Developers "supported" bunny hopping being in the game and had no desire to remove it then. If that is any indication, while it broke the atmosphere for you and me, the Devs must have thought it fit.
Since I don't like bunny hopping but it apparently has a place in NS1, so I am geussing something will be in NS2, I am trying to get it replaced with something better, something that will hopefully be less or not at all atmosphere breaking.
I hope we can come up with something the Devs will find a relatively low cost solution.
Honestly, when I first starting playing NS I thought the play style would be like Aliens for the marines. I would say that when you play as Kharaa it does feel like aliens, but the marines mind set is more like starship troopers(the book, which is what I assume you're referring to). For those that haven't read it I'll give a summary of what I mean. In the book the MI(mobile infantry) wear highly specialized exoskeleton type jumpsuits that are armed to the gills. They react on instinct most of the time but use strategy to put themselves in advantageous situations. I'd say this gameplay style is very close to what NS marines actually do, firing on instinct but trying to get the upper hand through strategy. I know this is a very general definition but I think using Aliens as a reference for play style is too shallow even if the atmosphere is great. What it ultimately boils down to is no matter how you craft the marines the play style of marines will be dictated by the people who play them, and standing still when a alien is barreling towards you doesn't make sense because you're not going to be frozen in fear like the characters in the movies are.
Disclaimer: I suck at bunny hopping and I'm glad that the dev team is going to try to replace it, but I still think my point stands.