The Facts About Competitive NS
Radix
Join Date: 2005-01-10 Member: 34654Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2005-01-10 Member: 34654Members, Constellation
I'm sure this has been said before, so I'm not going to claim ownership to it. If you haven't heard this saying yet, it's time to familiarize yourself with it.
<b>Those with the least to say scream the loudest.</b>
The hard truth is, idiots exist in everything. As much as I like organized play, we have our share of morons. I'm not going to bother going into a detailed mudsling against one player or another, and I would appreciate others following suit, as it's only going to get my thread locked, and I took a good while to write this.
Many of the oldschool players who deserve the most respect are the most silent. That's because they're wise enough to let their deeds speak for them. Unfortunately, because there aren't nearly as many competent, quiet, and respectful veterans as there are average players, you don't see them much, and even when you would otherwise see them, you don't notice because their focus is on the game instead of on dramatic e-thuggery.
Because of this, combined with the fact that we have as many morons as any other proportionately-sized microcosm of society, and the comparative expressive volume (and griefing habits) of our morons with our respectable mature members, many regular everyday NS players have an overshadowed and inaccurate opinion of what things are really like.
A few common images (that <i>I</i> would pick up if I didn't have other experiences) are that we use constant racial slurs, that we make a habit of ruining games for pubbers intentionally (note that an extreme skill gap, much greater than mine, can do that on its own), that we condone hackers (or that we all hack anyway), and that we live in a world that can never be penetrated by mere mortals.
The unfortunate reality is that there are a few of us that have no taste, consideration for others, sense of self respect (enough to avoid hacking), and still others who sometimes seem unparalleled at times even to me.
While those things are true, it's also true that the majority of us (despite what atrocious managerial decisions were made during the intercontinental match) value skill, tact, and the growth of abilities during the camraderie, and yes, drama, of competitive play. The skill gap is breakable, but does require work from players - now that we have an open league, it should be less extreme. More than anything we value the classic scifi-horror experience we've come to know as NS, and though it's changed over the years, it's still one of the best games for organized play in existence. And that's something that's not likely to change very soon.
So please, don't chuck the thought of competitive play right-off. My lowest (or highest) opinions obviously can't change anything, but perhaps some of this forum's readers have the common sense to weigh these assertions against their currently-held worldviews to determine which is most valid. Thanks for your time.
--Radix
<b>Those with the least to say scream the loudest.</b>
The hard truth is, idiots exist in everything. As much as I like organized play, we have our share of morons. I'm not going to bother going into a detailed mudsling against one player or another, and I would appreciate others following suit, as it's only going to get my thread locked, and I took a good while to write this.
Many of the oldschool players who deserve the most respect are the most silent. That's because they're wise enough to let their deeds speak for them. Unfortunately, because there aren't nearly as many competent, quiet, and respectful veterans as there are average players, you don't see them much, and even when you would otherwise see them, you don't notice because their focus is on the game instead of on dramatic e-thuggery.
Because of this, combined with the fact that we have as many morons as any other proportionately-sized microcosm of society, and the comparative expressive volume (and griefing habits) of our morons with our respectable mature members, many regular everyday NS players have an overshadowed and inaccurate opinion of what things are really like.
A few common images (that <i>I</i> would pick up if I didn't have other experiences) are that we use constant racial slurs, that we make a habit of ruining games for pubbers intentionally (note that an extreme skill gap, much greater than mine, can do that on its own), that we condone hackers (or that we all hack anyway), and that we live in a world that can never be penetrated by mere mortals.
The unfortunate reality is that there are a few of us that have no taste, consideration for others, sense of self respect (enough to avoid hacking), and still others who sometimes seem unparalleled at times even to me.
While those things are true, it's also true that the majority of us (despite what atrocious managerial decisions were made during the intercontinental match) value skill, tact, and the growth of abilities during the camraderie, and yes, drama, of competitive play. The skill gap is breakable, but does require work from players - now that we have an open league, it should be less extreme. More than anything we value the classic scifi-horror experience we've come to know as NS, and though it's changed over the years, it's still one of the best games for organized play in existence. And that's something that's not likely to change very soon.
So please, don't chuck the thought of competitive play right-off. My lowest (or highest) opinions obviously can't change anything, but perhaps some of this forum's readers have the common sense to weigh these assertions against their currently-held worldviews to determine which is most valid. Thanks for your time.
--Radix
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
It's a shame that the loud and obnoxious can ruin something for everyone. It is also a shame that happens so much in life in general. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
I agree with what you say in your post Radix, and have always argued that it is a minority that cause the problems. For many people, the real problem is not that a minority are deviant, but that the majority silently accept it. I personally tried to get into competitive NS but gave up because I got tired of the 13 year old racist and homophobic language I had to suffer for 20 minutes before every game.
but it got locked =D.
2 people disrupted the match, but only one was hacking. please get your facts straight.
<!--quoteo(post=1648731:date=Sep 11 2007, 02:45 PM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(puzl @ Sep 11 2007, 02:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1648731"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I personally tried to get into competitive NS but gave up because I got tired of the 13 year old racist and homophobic language I had to suffer for 20 minutes before every game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that will exist in every internet competitive game. its something you have to get used to.
either get used to it or learn how to mute people.
...or take part in a different community which takes action against such people, so the majority can enjoy gaming in a friendly atmosphere.
You have done an excellent job of not only clearly identifying what is hindering the community but also showing what will help it improve.
Thank you.
In our hour of desperation you're going to publicly apologize for the behavior of people in the community? Please. You said it yourself there are idiots everywhere, this doesn't even need to be said, anyone with half a clue will recognize that the community isn't simply the detritus of our society looking for success online that they cannot attain in life. This is not a community driven by teenage angst. It's a community filled with dedicated people who love the game, who enjoy the social experience that comes from clanning and who enjoy a more organized form of play.
Casual racism and homophobic comments are a part of life. I wonder how many of you are appalled by our behavior but love family guy or think pulp fiction is a classic.
The truth is the competitive community is one of the most openly helpful communities. I would not be making a sweeping generalization if I said that every player has or would be willing to help anyone who asked. That is the honest truth. The competitive community is highly giving and you'll find people willing to give up their time for as little or as long as you want.
I doubt your community can make the same claim.
I like to split lower divisions and higher divisions of competitive play into 2 categories when I think of them: Lower play is a ball awesome studded with nuggets of racism-internet-lulz driven poo. Higher divisions of play seem to see less overt racism and is more like a ball of awesome studded with ego driven-childminded-spaztards who vent on the internet.
The point is, most of the people who play are pretty cool. Or used to be. Both lower and higher divisions became mixed recently due to the big dying off of clans.
Truth be told, I wouldn't bother trying to get into the competitive scene now, while a lot of the arseholes have grown up and only have slight flashbacks to being bellends, most of the good guys have quit.
Oh and even most of the idiots in the competitive scene will go out of their way to help someone who asks, but then again there are some people who are just ######ing useless no matter what.
Secondly, the satirical racist, homophobic, and other 'anti' remarks and skits in Family Guy are part of the Family Guy creation. You are not subjected to them unless you want to be, since that's exactly what FG is. Racial slurs are not part of NS, and they are not required to play NS at a competitive level, and I very much suspect that they are not delivered as socially introspective and satirical remarks in the referred instances of competitive NS, but instead to cajole other players in the most baser, unimaginitive and distasteful way possible. It's immature, it's unprofessional and it's undisciplined. For players who can train themselves to count the bullets needed to take down an enemy to a tee to claim they can't exact the same amount of discipline in relenting from spouting profanities in all directions is laughable. If competitive players want to be respected by the community they really need to earn it, not just for their skills but for their discipline.
In most organised sports that sort of language on the pitch merits formal warnings, disqualifications and the like from the organisers. There's nothing to say the organisers of competitive ladders and leagues for NS shouldn't do the same. This is only allowed to happen either because organisers condone it, or they lack the balls to regulate their own competition, or they lack the organisation to properly enforce their own regulations. It's probably a mixture of all three.
If this is something that is truly putting off potential competitive players then an astute organiser would do well to begin enforcing a 'code of conduct' for all matches and official message boards to clean up the game.
Also I never played competitive. I had however matches were we had the luck that alot of clanners were on and I always like those matches. I tend to let them shoot whiel I hunt rts (since I suck) or I command so I got a respectable team once. (I get rusty, honest..)
To bad I lack the dedication needed to put into a competitive play cause it seems really nice to play against and with ppl who can actually play rather then the n00bs who can only press fire.
there is no 'leader' of competitive play, sure theres the guys who run the leagues who everyone has allot of respect for, but at the end of the day they cant/don't have right to say or do anything about general pcws which are outside of a league.
You can't in ANY way hold them responsible for others actions.
there is no 'leader' of competitive play, sure theres the guys who run the leagues who everyone has allot of respect for, but at the end of the day they cant/don't have right to say or do anything about general pcws which are outside of a league.
You can't in ANY way hold them responsible for others actions.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly. Leagues cannot punish players for their actions outside of league matches or the league forums. Any attempt to do so is just plain dumb. As for the matter of such disrespect in matches, if no one from the opposing team is offended by it enough to report it to the league administrators, then it's really not the responsibility of administrators to seek out and punish the players. With regard to the exhibition match incident, as it was not an ANSL vs. ENSL match, it was not in our power to say who could or could not compete.
There's a third option: don't be around it. I get the feeling that a lot of people are choosing that option.
<!--quoteo(post=1648797:date=Sep 11 2007, 03:30 PM:name=MrBen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MrBen @ Sep 11 2007, 03:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1648797"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I hope this is a joke.
In our hour of desperation you're going to publicly apologize for the behavior of people in the community? Please. You said it yourself there are idiots everywhere, this doesn't even need to be said, anyone with half a clue will recognize that the community isn't simply the detritus of our society looking for success online that they cannot attain in life. This is not a community driven by teenage angst. It's a community filled with dedicated people who love the game, who enjoy the social experience that comes from clanning and who enjoy a more organized form of play.
Casual racism and homophobic comments are a part of life. I wonder how many of you are appalled by our behavior but love family guy or think pulp fiction is a classic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The competetive scene is (for the most part) one community. Pubbing is not. Pubbing is that 20 or so different servers with different rules and different regulars. Those are twenty different communities, and players can choose the ones that they want. Some of these pub communities ban the idiots.. In general, the competetive scene does not. Casual racism and homophobic comments are in fact not part of many of these servers.
I love your use of the word detritus. I think that made my day.
I'd just like to briefly say one thing: some of the first post can be said for the pub scene as well. There are pubbers who are indifferent (and some even accepting) of the competetive scene/players/etc. While I haven't taken a poll or anything, my experieince tends to tell me that it is the vocal minority (although not as much ofa minority of pub players as of comp players) who speak out the most against competetive players.
Anyways, NS is dead, wait for NS2.
I believe that no matter where you go you will find people who's in game desire is not the same as you and the best option is to just keep moving if you can't get them booted. It's not worth your time to deal with them as they seem to get a kick out of aggrevating you. I would enjoy a good competitive match and should the worst come about because of another player by hacks or personal issues then I would play my best, mute them, and wait for the next game. Better to give something a chance then write it off without knowing for sure.
So because someone does it worse somewhere else, it's ok to do it here?
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->[...]<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><b>[2.]</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->The competetive scene is (for the most part) one community.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><b>1:</b> <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
You can choose this option by picking the right person/team to play with, seriously, its not like everyone who plays pcws will scream '######' or 'Jew', its just a bad joke for some players, its easy to ignore.
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><b>2:</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Sorry, would this a bad thing if it were true?
Euro ns could be broken down in this way;<ul><li>Finnish and those who use the nsfi vent,</li><li>UK, Irish, others who speak English and use the killer creation vent.</li><li>then theres the teams who stay (for the most part) private from the rest of the community with their own vent servers and stuff.</li></ul>
The only thing is that all these different sectors, if you like, idle on the same IRC channels.
I'm sure something similar is true in NAns
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<!--quoteo(post=1648883:date=Sep 12 2007, 02:44 AM:name=F4tManMGS2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(F4tManMGS2 @ Sep 12 2007, 02:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1648883"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><b>[1.]</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Pubbing is not. Pubbing is that 20 or so different servers with different rules and different regulars. Those are twenty different communities, and players can choose the ones that they want. Some of these pub communities ban the idiots.. In general, the competetive scene does not. Casual racism and homophobic comments are in fact not part of many of these servers.
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->[...]<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><b>[2.]</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
(and some even accepting) [...] who speak out the most against competetive players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><b>1:</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Who is meant to take action on those who are racist etc?
There is no-one in overall authority.
Comp players don't own any pub servers, and the one that the ENSL hosted, the pub scene didn't support in the slightest, so please don't sight on your throne. That server was specifically designed to mix the comp players with public players, the rules where well written and made it clear that anyone who insulted a players skill would be dealt with harshly. The only rule comp players normally have a problem with is the one that says "do not f4 or sell base, as the aliens/marines want to be ale enjoy taking their time winning....".
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><b>2:</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> <!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Wake up and smell the coffee.
What does 'some even accepting' mean?
God, we aren't the bunch of Nazis as we are said to be.
The thing that makes me laugh is that on the most part the people who say comp players are all a bunch of idiots have never played with them, sat in the same vent with them, had a conversation with them. Just automatically assume that they are all elitist, anti-pubber, anti-fun gamers...
Milo, okay, I forgive you for not biting the hive down, but that hardly excuses you phishing the server password and joining the alien team.
The racist/childish language is not really that important, and I really should not have brought it up. It was in the context of a lack of coherence - i.e. how were the players who ruined the ANSL final chosen to represent the USA? I accept that you can't moderate the language of all competitive players especially when a simple coherent anti-cheat policy seems to be also impossible. The people who ruined the ANSL finals should be banned from all competitive NS. I don't think you guys realise how far the story that "known hackers were chosen to play for USA" spread.
The only reason Chuckers played in that match was because the US scene is almost gone,
at the time it was fair to assume that a fellow player wouldn't hack in such a big game - although in hinesight that was dumb as he did in the ansl finals.
Its not as if the Euro team could say "No, your not aloud Chuckers. No way." That would mean USA would be forced to forfeit and that the 100+ specs etc would have wasted their time, and would have been disappointed, especially seeing as if wasnt known he would hack in that game.
EU would have been seen really badly in this situation IMHO.
PS: Saying that we are all racist, childish, immature etc can be put under the umbrella of being called an idiot.
Also, I'm not sure why you are trying to defend European NS over this specific incident, nobody has said anything negative about it.
The only reason Chuckers played in that match was because the US scene is almost gone,
at the time it was fair to assume that a fellow player wouldn't hack in such a big game - although in hinesight that was dumb as he did in the ansl finals.
Its not as if the Euro team could say "No, your not aloud Chuckers. No way." That would mean USA would be forced to forfeit and that the 100+ specs etc would have wasted their time, and would have been disappointed, especially seeing as if wasnt known he would hack in that game.
EU would have been seen really badly in this situation IMHO.
PS: Saying that we are all racist, childish, immature etc can be put under the umbrella of being called an idiot.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If im not wrong the usa roster wasn't closed for those several players, saying stuff like that doesn't justify chuckers at all.