University of Florida Student Tased

puzl

That article you link to is very misleading Depot. It misquotes him and paints an innacurate picture of what happened ( when compared to the video you linked ).

E.g.

What the article claims he said
"“You will take my question because I have been listening to your crap for two hours”"

What he actually said
"he's been talking for two hours, I think I can have two minutes"


Never mind the report claims that he was being detained for inciting a riot.

There is a claim that he lifted an officer off the ground ( which doesn't match what was in the video ). The specific time this was supposed to have happened was right after the mic was turned off.

The report doesn't match up with the events in the video, not to mention that the site commenting on it is rewriting what happened.
Either that or there are large portions of the video missing.

Thansal

Don't read the article itself, it is full of garbage, instead, just read the police reports.

Police reports actually tend to be VERY accurate for the simple reason that they have now committed somethign to writing, and it can (and will) be used in court. Anything that comes out as them trying to make them selves look better will get them in serious amounts of poo if this goes to court.

The way the reports I have read came out it sounded like this:
1) He was asked to leave, and then they started to escort him out.
2) Kerry agreed to answer his question
3) He rants and one of the people running the show ask the officers to escort him out.
4) 2 officers start to escort him and he fights back a lot.
5) They (5 officers I think) manage to get 1 cuff on him, but he is still resisting enough that they can't cuff him.
6) He is warned he will be hit with the taser.
7) He continues to struggle.
8) He is Zapped, cuffed, arrested (yes, he was arrested, but only AFTER he started resisting, prior to that he was simply being removed from the area) and escorted out (everything after the zap is irrelevant to the situation).

It looks like they applied normal force until it was no longer enough for the situation, so they escalated it to hitting him with 'one cycle' of the taser after a verbal warning.

To me, it sounds like the proper use of a taser. The other alternative was using more physical force to restrain him.

Ninja Edit:
Puzl, it IS heavily edited.
His first comments are not on that video, the first time he is escorted away are not there, Kerry saying that he WILL take the quest are not there, etc etc.

Depot

I would be inclined to believe the video didn't correspond with the police report other than vice versa. Who's to say a video couldn't be edited as well as the report? I think the copy of the report is correct, and it corresponds with the reports I've seen on tv. I know you're trying to dismiss what all I've seen regarding this case, but when it is in sync with the report?

MedHead

<!--quoteo(post=1650776:date=Sep 20 2007, 01:50 PM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(puzl @ Sep 20 2007, 01:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1650776"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. Obviously the taser was present before it was applied. Watch it again. He is on the ground, subdued by six police. He is struggling a little making it hard for them to cuff him. There is no drug induced flailing. There is no observable attempt to do harm to anyone. He is simply making drama out of the situation. The taser is produced and held to him for a number of seconds ( long enough for him to exclaim "don't taser me bro" more than once ) and then suddenly the taser is turned on. Maybe I'm missing something, I'm perfectly willing to admit I am wrong if I misread the situation. I'm not against tasers in principle, I just think these cops totally over-reacted.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
From what I saw, it appeared that the taser was of the pistol variety that shot needles into his chest and stunned him. However, it does appear that he is hit with the handheld-apply-to-chest variety: whether that is in addition to the pistol or not, I'm not sure. However, he was certainly still struggling, and the use of a taser when handcuffed isn't unprecedented.

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That is true of everyone in this topic. Why do you single me out? Are you saying that only the police have a right to bear judgement on themselves?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is difficult for someone who is out of the situation to understand the stress involved during the situation. Response times are different when one is an observer outside of the stressful situation, as well as when that observer can pause and rewind events to criticize them.

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Correct me if I'm wrong, but he wasn't being arrested. In order for him to be arrested the police have to delare their intent to do so.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The tape was edited. He was yelling. How do you know they didn't?

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I believe they also have to read him his miranda rights in the US.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, they don't.

Thansal

They did ream him his rights once he WAS arrested.

You don't have to (as they show on TV) read some one their right before you arrest them, despite being in a pitched gun fight, or working on restraining the subject, or anything. One the suspect is under arrest, you read them their rights.

Crispy

<!--quoteo(post=1650578:date=Sep 20 2007, 01:35 AM:name=A_Boojum_Snark)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(A_Boojum_Snark @ Sep 20 2007, 01:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1650578"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't see why the cops got involved in the first place. He was being a bit loud and rambling on, but if Kerry had no problem with it and was going to answer the question I fail to see why anything was needed to be done to him. He wasn't disrupting the event if the guest speaker wasn't asking for him to stop, or be stopped.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Precisely. The administration in this instance decided they didn't want to hear what he had to say, but the thing is I didn't hear at any point anyone ask him to leave, or warn him that if he didn't leave he would be physically removed for disrupting the proceedings.

In the UK I think the common practise is to warn the would-be detainee of what will happen if they do not comply with Police orders, and explain why they are being asked to desist (i.e. why what they're doing is illegal/unacceptable). Only once that statement has been made and ignored do they take more aggressive steps. I think if this had happened here they'd have more than enough cause to do what they did, but the more incidents like this I see from on-site University security or police or whatever they are, the more amateurish my impression of them. By not following standard protocol they basically gave him a lot more ammunition and attention.

I don't necessarily agree with him being removed when Kerry clearly didn't object to answering his questions, but I think you do have to respect the wishes of the administration if they request that someone be removed. The security guards behaved farcically.

Depot

<!--quoteo(post=1650782:date=Sep 20 2007, 02:16 PM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy @ Sep 20 2007, 02:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1650782"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Precisely. The administration in this instance decided they didn't want to hear what he had to say,[...]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
False. The administration in this instance decided the forum was closed and told the police to take appropriate action to do so. It did not infringe upon his rights to free speech - speech time was over.

Spacer

It's funny how everyone thinks everyone else is wrong, whilst simultaneously noone can agree on what evidence is actually valid.

Thansal

<b>Crispy</b>, you can see an officer poke her head into the frame, say something, and he then reacts with "I'll ask my question, I'll ask my question thank you very much". That was probably telling him he had to leave.

Read the police report, it is a better source of info then that video tbh. Or watch the other videos.
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/qUtBlDu8azU"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/qUtBlDu8azU" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>

And yus, one officer pulls an air taser (thingy that shoot out probes), but it is never used. All that is used is a taser to the chest, for 'one cycle'.

Depot

<!--quoteo(post=1650791:date=Sep 20 2007, 02:33 PM:name=Thansal)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Thansal @ Sep 20 2007, 02:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1650791"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->[...]
Read the police report, it is a better source of info then that video tbh. Or watch the other videos.
[...]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You got THAT right!

Faskalia

While that students behavior was certainly questionable, the fact that 5 officers could not clam him down without the use of a tazer clearly shows that there is something wrong with their training.
(Not sure, but those officers did not look like normal cops. More like a private security service)

And lets not forget that the student in question looks like he is 70kg at most. Its just a pathetic job done by the security.

tjosan

What I'm mostly amazed about is the fact that people think violence is justified just because someone is annoying. If I was there I would much rather have endured his ranting than see him get wrestled down and tazered. Sparing people from having to listen to him does not justify violence at all. I'm simply amazed and horrified that this discussion has been turned away from this basic issue towards whether or not the tazer was ok to use after violence had already ensued. Shame on you.

Thansal

<!--quoteo(post=1650812:date=Sep 20 2007, 03:42 PM:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tjosan @ Sep 20 2007, 03:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1650812"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What I'm mostly amazed about is the fact that people think violence is justified just because someone is annoying. If I was there I would much rather have endured his ranting than see him get wrestled down and tazered. Sparing people from having to listen to him does not justify violence at all. I'm simply amazed and horrified that this discussion has been turned away from this basic issue towards whether or not the tazer was ok to use after violence had already ensued. Shame on you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
there were that many cops b/c it was a public appearance by a US Senator.

He was physically removed at the request of the group holding the event.

ninja edit b/c of TJO's

I am sorta curious though.

Why is do you think that physical force was NOT called for?

He was told to leave. He refused (and not calmly or anything, but rather forcefully and aggressively). They try to physically remove him (not even using a comealong or anything, just holding his arm and walking out with him), and he literally fights back. At this point they have a potentially unstable individual who is showing violent tendencies. They SHOULD at this point physically restrain him and arrest him. Yes, in hind site we know that he was just some little twerp pulling a prank, but at that point the police did not have this knowledge, all they knew was that there was a potential threat in the same room with a bunch of college students and a senator, solution? Remove him.

Side note, if you read through the police notes, he apparently DID fight back enough to at least leave bruises.

Depot

I believe if you view the police report "inciting a riot" is mentioned. His actions could easily be interpreted as such, given the hysterical way in which he acted (on camera only).

Abra

lol inciting a riot.

locallyunscene

<!--quoteo(post=1650757:date=Sep 20 2007, 01:00 PM:name=Depot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Depot @ Sep 20 2007, 01:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1650757"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm afraid most SRO's (school resource officers) would disagree with you, in addition to the school boards that employ them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This doesn't surprise me, but saddens me greatly.
<!--quoteo(post=1650757:date=Sep 20 2007, 01:00 PM:name=Depot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Depot @ Sep 20 2007, 01:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1650757"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Reportedly over 200 people have died from taser attacks. I'm guessing a large percentage of them would have died from a gunshot wound, had the officer not had a taser.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Would this guy have been shot? No. I'm all for an officer using a less-lethal weapon as opposed to a lethal one, but as you stated yourself that's not how officers are trained to use them.

Did the kid deserve to be forcibly removed? Sure. Did he deserve a beating or a tasering? That's arguable.

Inciting a riot? I guess I don't know the legal definition of this. He was being loud and resisting police officers, do you have to be encouraging others to do the same to be inciting? If not how is this different from "disturbing the peace"? I'm not being sarcastic here, I really don't know.

Depot

<a href="http://www.lawyers.com/ask_a_lawyer/q_and_a_archive/view_archive/index.php?QID=12-MAY-03&site=537" target="_blank">This definition</a> of "inciting a riot" is probably accurate,

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Q. What does the charge inciting a riot mean and what will happen?</b>

-- Anonymous

A. Under federal law, a riot is a public disturbance involving an act of violence by one or more persons who are assembled in a group of at least three people. The act of violence must be one that presents a clear and present danger of injury to another person or damage to another person\\\'s property. Threatening to commit a violent act in such a group situation that could injure another person or damage property is also considered a riot if one of the persons in the group has the ability at the time to carry out the threatened violence.

Inciting a riot applies to a person who organizes, encourages, or participates in a riot. It can apply to one who urges or instigates others to riot. It does not apply to someone who merely advocates ideas or expresses beliefs, if those ideas and beliefs do not involve advocating violence.

The federal crime of inciting a riot carries a possible penalty of up to five years in prison a fine.

State and local governments also have laws that make it a crime to incite a riot. The penalties range from fines only to jail time. It is important that the law, even if only a municipal ordinance, specify the conduct that that is prohibited with sufficient definiteness that ordinary people can understand what conduct is prohibited.

If you have been charged with inciting a riot, I recommend you seek out a criminal defense lawyer in your area who can tell you exactly what conduct the law prohibits in your jurisdiction, and advise you as whether the law is subject to a challenge on the grounds that it is unconstitutionally vague--either because it fails to sufficiently set forth what conduct is prohibited, or fails to set minimal guidelines for police to use in enforcing the law.

-- Jeralyn Merritt<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Haze

I don't get it. The kid god tased, maybe someone should have layed a knee across his chest and possibly broken two or more of his ribs instead.

Thansal

<!--quoteo(post=1650830:date=Sep 20 2007, 04:43 PM:name=Haze)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Haze @ Sep 20 2007, 04:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1650830"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't get it. The kid god tased, maybe someone should have layed a knee across his chest and possibly broken two or more of his ribs instead.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Haze Gets It.

Haze

We should have tasers that play icecream truck music when they're in use so people feel less threatened by them.

locallyunscene

<!--quoteo(post=1650830:date=Sep 20 2007, 04:43 PM:name=Haze)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Haze @ Sep 20 2007, 04:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1650830"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't get it. The kid god tased, maybe someone should have layed a knee across his chest and possibly broken two or more of his ribs instead.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or maybe they could have done neither? Nevermind, that's crazy talk.

Haze

<!--quoteo(post=1650835:date=Sep 20 2007, 05:04 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Sep 20 2007, 05:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1650835"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Or maybe they could have done neither? Nevermind, that's crazy talk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Oh yeah, you're right, they should have just asked him to leave.

Xyth

<!--quoteo(post=1650862:date=Sep 20 2007, 06:17 PM:name=Haze)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Haze @ Sep 20 2007, 06:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1650862"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh yeah, you're right, they should have just asked him to leave.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

With all the cops there I think dragging him out of the place could have been possible.

Depot

<!--quoteo(post=1650867:date=Sep 20 2007, 06:49 PM:name=Xyth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Xyth @ Sep 20 2007, 06:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1650867"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->With all the cops there I think dragging him out of the place could have been possible.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You didn't read the police report either, did you?

puzl

I've read the police report, and discarding the fact that it is the testimony of the very people accused of of misbehaving, I'm still not entirely sure how 6 police officers failed to calm the guy down. I just don't understand how a guy shooting his mouth off needs to be controlled with violence.
What I don't understand is where in the video sequence this supposed flailing and lifting off the ground is supposed to happen ( or have been cut ). Having said that, if the police report is accurate then I don't think they were *completely* out of line. I just can't figure out where in the sequence these supposed acts of violence and inciting of a riot are supposed to happen, because resisting arrest *is not* inciting a riot. Can you clarify the difference between disturbing the peace, threatining to do harm to another and inciting a riot? Specifically one of a a group of at least three people has to be enticed to cause violence and be able to cause harm. What I'm missing is who exactly did this guy incite to riot? Himself?

Also, assuming that the struggle with the police is him resisting arrest, what exactly was the behaviour that is to be considered inciting a riot?

I think that although the guy acted offensively and disruptively, and resisted arrest, he certainly didn't invite a riot and does not deserve the 5 year maximum sentence. I'm sort of baffled, but perhaps this explains why the US has the highest incarceration rate in the world.

Prefix

I bet the people who are defending this act of police brutality are American.

Wouldn't surprise me at all.

How can you possibly think that a man who is asking a fair question deserves to be tazered?

The police should have let him ask his question, then have removed him in a legal manner.
Free Speech is the foundation of any real country, to take that away is foundation to commit crime to humanity.

This man is 100% innocent, he did nothing wrong.

Depot

I'm speculating the police had a good handle on his intentions when they first approached him, which seems to have been to create this disturbance which they feel, according to his actions and dialogue, was planned in advance.

If you plan in advance to cause a scene (such as this) at a crowded public function where a high profile public official is speaking, it could be seen as inciting a riot.

That's how I see it anyway...


Prefix, it doesn't appear you've read the entire thread, nor do you know the facts. University administration informed the security police that the forum was over and that John Kerry had to depart. What they did in the beginning was to inform him of this, and then he began creating the scene. It has nothing to do with freedom of speech, the forum was over and so was the question session.

Zig

<!--sizeo:2--><span style="font-size:10pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->you would think that, having grown up in the United States, these retarded aholes might know one of the most important rules of living here.

you just don't f* with the police.

you can f* with a LOT of people.

but if you value your life and your nuts, you really shouldn't try it with the police.

it was the same way with the last guy this happened to, at some college, I forget which. it was only a couple months ago. both whiny white kids who figure "OMFG I MOUTHED OFF TO THE COPS AND GOT TASED.. I GUESS I SHOULD MAKE A BIG SCENE AND CRY ABOUT IT!" honestly. takes a man of little dignity and few balls to do something like that.
<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->

Prefix

Then how come according to kerrys blog the forum continued after the kid was removed from the building?

Id rather trust that side of events than the police report which is more likely to be one sided in an effort to protect itself, as puzl pointed out, all we do know is that the police exaggerated the events.

Edit: Zig explain to me how asking a question on a controversial issue in the middle of a large discussion doesn't take 'balls'?
You go out and get tasered and come back to me, k?

Oh, and a country were you fear your police force is not a country where id like to be.

Zig

Side note: every day 24,000 people die of hunger, and yet we have time to sit around and cry because some kid got tased for being a little d-bag.