NS2 Lighting!
ZONK
Join Date: 2003-10-20 Member: 21795Members
Join Date: 2003-10-20 Member: 21795Members
I am not sure what ideas have been discussed for lighting, or what plans to use HDR (High-Dynamic Range), but figured this be a fun thing to include. First off using the HDR isn't that important to me, and believe with the lack of outdoor maps to begin it isn't very important.
My idea refers is about breakable lights. NS has always been great at keeping you on edge while walking in that dark room looking around for the alien that is about to eat you. I would really like to continue that feeling, but this is NS2 we can make it even better!
I am not saying all lights, but it would be nice if some of the desk lights, ceiling tubular lights, and others hanging from the ceilings with bulbs. It is common as well to see some lights with cages around them in stadiums and industrial settings. Those aliens couldn't get close enough for to take out with melee.
What is nice about this is aliens of course are going to take them out. Which means this gives humans another method of gear. Flares could be nice 5 minutes lasting of red glow while it sits on the ground. Even the possibility of replacing the bulb in lights you can reach to get light back.
I really don't know why more games don't do this. How many times you get that feeling in other games man I want to shoot that light out. In this game lighting has always played much more of a factor, and think the more interaction with the environment will make NS2 that much more exciting.
My idea refers is about breakable lights. NS has always been great at keeping you on edge while walking in that dark room looking around for the alien that is about to eat you. I would really like to continue that feeling, but this is NS2 we can make it even better!
I am not saying all lights, but it would be nice if some of the desk lights, ceiling tubular lights, and others hanging from the ceilings with bulbs. It is common as well to see some lights with cages around them in stadiums and industrial settings. Those aliens couldn't get close enough for to take out with melee.
What is nice about this is aliens of course are going to take them out. Which means this gives humans another method of gear. Flares could be nice 5 minutes lasting of red glow while it sits on the ground. Even the possibility of replacing the bulb in lights you can reach to get light back.
I really don't know why more games don't do this. How many times you get that feeling in other games man I want to shoot that light out. In this game lighting has always played much more of a factor, and think the more interaction with the environment will make NS2 that much more exciting.
Comments
It also raises the question: "how many marines does it take to screw in a light bulb" <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Together with researchable flares or something similar this could be really neat.
I guess there will be changes in lighting anyway depending on the amount of infestation in one area like computers and lights turning off when the infestation grows.
Regarding HDR in NS2, I would like to see it in the maps, but you have to keep in mind that it shouldn't effect balance, because people would just turn it off to play better just like everyhting else that is pro mood and contra performance/gameplay.
Together with researchable flares or something similar this could be really neat.
I guess there will be changes in lighting anyway depending on the amount of infestation in one area like computers and lights turning off when the infestation grows.
Regarding HDR in NS2, I would like to see it in the maps, but you have to keep in mind that it shouldn't effect balance, because people would just turn it off to play better just like everyhting else that is pro mood and contra performance/gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
close to what i was thinking. though i don't see breakable lights as a very innovative gameplay mechanic. if its combined with dynamic infestation in the way that i've read elsewhere, its alot more useful and less time-consuming than running around taking out every single light as an alien(and marines going around changing lightbulbs? doesnt sound like very fun, though it might be tense <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />).
basically, if you got control over an area as the kharaa, things are dark and moist(perhaps some ground-fog to mess things up good for marines knee-deep into enemy territory? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />). if you got control as marines, then its probably light and sterile. when going into the kharaa area, marines could use chemical flares/flares to temporary light up the area they are in to feel safer. kharaa going into marine territories could perhaps bring some small critter that creates fog/disturbs electronics so that they will have an easier time sneaking up on marines. i can imagine the fear that you would get as a marine when you are defending and suddenly the lights flicker and smoke pours out around you, and suddenly something jumps out and pops your head clean off <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
HDR could be used as a gameplay mechanic, but people would quickly just turn up the light on the screens if it isn't possible to turn off. I'm expecting flashlights and special vision to be an important part of the game though, so we'll see what they come up with.
btw, first post on the forums. didn't know that they had gone public about ns2 before a week ago. you need more PR to get this brilliant game out to the masses! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Just the commander <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" /> *clicks repair light bulb icon*
I really don't understand how you say this will be a problem with fun. By all means, I am referring to additional lighting. Natural Selection has always been a pretty dark game, playing with lights on in room is hard. I want that to continue. However, some rooms might have lights that are not broken and light the room up as a normal room. Every room in Natural Selection felt already beat up and taken over. Having lights and some areas in tact will give the marines a better feeling. All the lighting is supposed to do is effect mood, like in movies.
Areas that are still clean and lit the marines feel confident. Soon as the lights go out, and the researched flares fly on ground, it is a scary seen. The marines are on edge. When the flare burns out, welcome to your nightmare. It isn't pitch black by any means, also remember some people will change gamma anyways, but it will be more spooky then before.
If you remove the infestation with your flamethrower, the light will be free again.
I think taking the lights out is a good thing. Maybe the aliens can brake the lights, and they will receve a electric shock damage if they doing it by male. Marines may accidentally shoot out the lights. The damaged lights may automatically repair them self with the nanotech in a few minutes....
How many marines does it take to screw in a light bulb? 1 if he has a welder, 99999999 if they don't.
The way i think things will work with the dynamic infestation and lighting is that you have two/three basic modes. the basic two modes are "marine" and "kharaa" where marine areas are sterile and bright while kharaa areas are infected and dark.
The more advanced version got "marine", "kharaa" and "neutral", where neutral is more like "emergency lighting"/"sleep-mode" where the lights are not as bright as in normal marine areas, but not as dark as they are in kharaa areas either...
Yea, you don't have to micro, you don't have to play this game either. If you've ever played StarCraft, have you ever complained about the micromanagement of that game? This game is easier than baking cakes compared to SC. I can hit every med in the world on a marine given a decent connection and a decent marine, I also get bored sometimes.
Anyway, I'd rather not have this game degenerate to having to squint to see your skulks. If not, then at least make the lighting somewhat uniform so those of us that can actually aim at stuff have a chance with +gamma.
The way i think things will work with the dynamic infestation and lighting is that you have two/three basic modes. the basic two modes are "marine" and "kharaa" where marine areas are sterile and bright while kharaa areas are infected and dark.
The more advanced version got "marine", "kharaa" and "neutral", where neutral is more like "emergency lighting"/"sleep-mode" where the lights are not as bright as in normal marine areas, but not as dark as they are in kharaa areas either...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Emergency lighting"/"sleep-mode" on a neutral place thing is sounds good.
Anyway, I'd rather not have this game degenerate to having to squint to see your skulks. If not, then at least make the lighting somewhat uniform so those of us that can actually aim at stuff have a chance with +gamma.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i would rather you read the entire reply i wrote instead of cutting away the parts that voids your argument.
what happens when a good commander has the ability to drop flares that lasts 1-2 minutes as often as they can drop medkits? you get a very bright map to play on because every room will be filled with flares. the mappers might as well just install giant light-bulbs lighting up every corner of the map.
might be fun for the marines though, make the game real easy for them and their commanders...
anyway, no point in getting too irritated. text-based communication comes over cold at times, so lets just consider this a minor difference in interpretation of what we were thinking about.
I'm just pointing out that its not impossible or technically problematic to allow a commander to drop flares all over the place. i am however saying that its problematic balancing-wise. i am pretty sure that the commanders role will be intensive in whatever way they are planning to add to it. they might even add flares to his abilities, but i personally think flares fit better with the grunts.
It's they who ultimately will know best when to use them, and I'll be pretty pissed if i got stuck in the dark and calling out for flares that never got there in time.
what happens when a good commander has the ability to drop flares that lasts 1-2 minutes as often as they can drop medkits? you get a very bright map to play on because every room will be filled with flares. the mappers might as well just install giant light-bulbs lighting up every corner of the map.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats in the case that the mappers DON'T put big bright bulbs everywhere. 1-2 minutes was an exaggeration, I have no clue how you can balance the timer to the res cost. But if marines have the flares, they are bound to run out of them sometime and then just get frustrated not just because they have to kill skulks, but because they have to kill skulks while not being able to see anything.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->might be fun for the marines though, make the game real easy for them and their commanders...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sort of like NS1 amirite?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm just pointing out that its not impossible or technically problematic to allow a commander to drop flares all over the place. i am however saying that its problematic balancing-wise.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sort of like hand grenades?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i am pretty sure that the commanders role will be intensive in whatever way they are planning to add to it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
More intensity never hurts, as long as it isn't a solid requirement, but a way of improving your game.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->they might even add flares to his abilities, but i personally think flares fit better with the grunts.
It's they who ultimately will know best when to use them<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They'll just go overboard on conserving their flares and won't use them when they need to, skulks would just wait till marine flares go out before going in. Good luck balancing darkness.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and I'll be pretty pissed if i got stuck in the dark and calling out for flares that never got there in time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You'd be pretty pissed if you didn't get a medpack in time, what's your point?
And would that be a good time to drop a ammo-bag which most likely would also refill the players flares?
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Domining)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Domining)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sort of like NS1 amirite?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
well you sure would like that wouldn't you, mr. 'best comm in NS'. it seems to me that you are very biased in favor of the marines, which is why I'm generally skeptic to your opinions.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Domining)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Domining)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sort of like hand grenades?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeah, hand grenades and commander drop-item ability does not match. its handy enough for the marines that the commander drops healthpacks and ammo around them while being bitten, it would be even more overkill if they could drop grenades and flares around them at the same time.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Domining)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Domining)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->More intensity never hurts, as long as it isn't a solid requirement, but a way of improving your game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
well the more stuff the commander gets, the more stuff will the aliens require to counter that. in the end the aliens will be so fast and hard to kill that it wouldn't matter if the commander can drop 10 healthpacks/second on a marine.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Domining)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Domining)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They'll just go overboard on conserving their flares and won't use them when they need to, skulks would just wait till marine flares go out before going in. Good luck balancing darkness.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
so let them save them, new tactics will be needed for a new game. if they notice that they are dying alot while not using flares in dark areas, someone will be able to understand that they might use their flares more often.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Domining)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Domining)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You'd be pretty pissed if you didn't get a medpack in time, what's your point?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That the commander should not be the puppetmaster of every single marine every second of their miserable lives. sure its handy to have him around when you are under attack to give you health and ammo, but to have him holding your hand while you are walking around in dark areas seems like a waste of time and fun for both commander and player.
Now back to the idea. I don't really care for the commander dropping flares, he already has medkit and ammo. I much rather the flare be a grenade the marine spawns with after a certain upgrade like grenades. Since every player has one, maybe 20 - 30 second burn time. Also if you have a group of people, when one burns out another could be thrown. Naturally aliens will not want to be in it, some won't care, but waiting for them to burn out is not option if a dude can just throw another. Think of it as a stim boost, for a short time the marine can see easier to hit with his gun. I picture the flares being like the red road flares, which would make for a red glowing room. I can picture the kick ass screen shots now, as you see the alien shades on the edge where the red flare's light ends.
Back to the orginal topic about breakable lights. Another more simple idea would be a new buildable object. Light Tower. It is like your light corner lights that you have in rooms now. Alien's can simply attack to break it (even cooler if the output is a percent of its health so it dims as it gets damaged and brightens as repaired) and marines can weld it to repair it.
You <b>CLEARLY</b> have no clue of what you're talking about.
Also, I'm better than you at this game therefore my opinions are more important than yours. If you'd like to dispute that, I'd love to play you 1-1@co_faceoff celerity vs resupply.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That the commander should not be the puppetmaster of every single marine every second of their miserable lives. sure its handy to have him around when you are under attack to give you health and ammo, but to have him holding your hand while you are walking around in dark areas seems like a waste of time and fun for both commander and player.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well with this idea I'm hoping that 99.9% of all places on all maps are bright enough for marines to not need any additional illumination. Come to think of it, I'd love an anti-brightness feature that would make rooms darker when the commander drops 'em, for ns_hera. Aliens need something along the lines of that as well.
Also, I'm better than you at this game therefore my opinions are more important than yours. If you'd like to dispute that, I'd love to play you 1-1@co_faceoff celerity vs resupply.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
all your posts as of yet in this forum brings me to that conclusion, and the rhetoric you use is typical dominating tactic, which really doesn't bite once you know how to spot it(and your nick really doesn't help cover it up).
Basically you want to draw 'skillz' into the argument, so that you can somehow in a archaic manner show the world "who is the best"(a desperate attempt at winning a losing battle i must say). The very fact that you bring up this in a forum has lost you the argument. one thing to be hooked on a drug, another to create the drug. so, 'Keith Richards', go get an eightball and have fun, and stay out of the lab.
<!--QuoteBegin-Domining+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Domining)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well with this idea I'm hoping that 99.9% of all places on all maps are bright enough for marines to not need any additional illumination. Come to think of it, I'd love an anti-brightness feature that would make rooms darker when the commander drops 'em, for ns_hera. Aliens need something along the lines of that as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
right, as mentioned above, stay out of the lab.
darkness on the other hand might work, but that would most likely just be a sort of black fog. and i wouldn't really understand why marines should have access to it. marines like the light, why would they make it darker?
Aliens would on the other hand probably have proper eyesight and sensor-organs that would allow them to see in the worst conditions. Then again, i believe the aliens had multiple cloud-like effects in NS1 that blocked line of sight for both parties. might be nice to see something like this that only effects the marines and allows the aliens to see through it.
Anyways, the great thing about NS2 is, it looks like lighting could be comepletely dynamic, which imo would be awesome.
<!--QuoteBegin-Wyattx3+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wyattx3)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Some of the maps that are even 70% bright don't even do the trick, If you want an all-bright map with no atmosphere theres plenty of other games like that.
Anyways, the great thing about NS2 is, it looks like lighting could be comepletely dynamic, which imo would be awesome.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeah, things have gotten far since hl1, so i would be surprised if they didnt put any sort of special lights into the game. the question however will be how they are going to avoid people from turning up their gamma to max on their screens if its so big that it will affect gameplay...
yeah, things have gotten far since hl1, so i would be surprised if they didnt put any sort of special lights into the game. the question however will be how they are going to avoid people from turning up their gamma to max on their screens if its so big that it will affect gameplay...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can't stop that. It's something that can be controlled outside the game. The only option would be having a tool run on the side that launches with the game, setting the gamma to a preset amount. Downside of this; if people have bad monitors, or basic settings; the screen could become too dark, not enabling them to play. Beside that, this can be circumvented by setting the monitor's brightness to a higher level. There's just no way to do this, at all.
but the question is, how varied the light will be in the game? if its so varied that you can't turn up your gamma to max because you'll be flashbanged when you come into more normal areas, then its an auto-balance right there. but i bet we'll have light and dark areas anyway, just that you won't be seeing the mappers counting on it as a real way to hide the aliens.
on a semi-related note, i wonder if the hl2 engine would have the ability to do what they are trying to do in resident evil 5 with lighting? basically they are trying to make it so that you have to acclimatize your eyes to darkness, so when you go from a light to dark area you won't see anything but black outlines right until a few seconds afterwards. same when you go out, except its all white.
but the question is, how varied the light will be in the game? if its so varied that you can't turn up your gamma to max because you'll be flashbanged when you come into more normal areas, then its an auto-balance right there. but i bet we'll have light and dark areas anyway, just that you won't be seeing the mappers counting on it as a real way to hide the aliens.
on a semi-related note, i wonder if the hl2 engine would have the ability to do what they are trying to do in resident evil 5 with lighting? basically they are trying to make it so that you have to acclimatize your eyes to darkness, so when you go from a light to dark area you won't see anything but black outlines right until a few seconds afterwards. same when you go out, except its all white.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It takes about 20seconds to make a breakable light. It will take ALOT longer to work out where to put the breakable light ingame to be balanced for gameplay issues, or change a current light to a breakable one for that matter.
basically, having one or two fuseboxes in a room where you can destroy/repair the lights would be a nice way to easily deactivate alot of lights without spending all the game biting glass. long hallways might be more interesting with individual lights as you can get those [darkness creeping towards you] moments, so there are no wrongs.
I agree that doesn't seem like a bad idea, it gives another use of the welder as well.
As for the comments on people changing gamma, no you cant stop it or should you waste time trying to prevent it. People are going to do what they want. For me the light adds to the enjoyment of the game. If they wish to get a couple extra kills possibly by seeing better then oh well. Remember if their gamma is higher the lighted areas will be brighter which might hurt them.
Remember if the game things of a good way to counter dark rooms for the marines people won't have to worry about changing gamma. So far the flares seems like the most simple and pretty/fun option. The red lit rooms would look so great. Even more make the alien's eyes reflect red when they are looking towards a flare to display their real inner evil! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/skulk.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::skulk::" border="0" alt="skulk.gif" /> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/asrifle.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::asrifle::" border="0" alt="asrifle.gif" />
As for the comments on people changing gamma, no you cant stop it or should you waste time trying to prevent it. People are going to do what they want. For me the light adds to the enjoyment of the game. If they wish to get a couple extra kills possibly by seeing better then oh well. Remember if their gamma is higher the lighted areas will be brighter which might hurt them.
Remember if the game things of a good way to counter dark rooms for the marines people won't have to worry about changing gamma. So far the flares seems like the most simple and pretty/fun option. The red lit rooms would look so great. Even more make the alien's eyes reflect red when they are looking towards a flare to display their real inner evil! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/skulk.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::skulk::" border="0" alt="skulk.gif" /><img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/asrifle.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::asrifle::" border="0" alt="asrifle.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Welding is good, gives you more situations to pray that no aliens are around.
gamma is not a problem that one should worry about, and as said before, bright areas will be annoying for those who have pumped it up. light and shadows will hopefully be a major part of the game and hopefully affect gameplay in a positive direction for most of us.
i also like the thoughts of the flares being used to counter very dark areas. i absolutely love the idea of having alien eyes reflect light in the darkness, sounds completely awesome <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />. though it might be more like the aliens version of a flashlight, so if you are not using a special alien vision, your eyes does not light up. would be pretty cool for an alien to stand way back in some shadows and blink their eyes to scare some marines coming in <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />