Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited October 2007
Well here it comes, one of the few last remaining oldschool players stands up and has a speech about 1.04 and probably 50 current players will stand up and tell me to STFU, because they rule the NS universe now <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
Saying combat killed NS (classic) is a little to simplyfied. It had a big part in it, but there is way more to it then that. Watch out long read!!!
Life was good when NS was launched, I for one was introduced to the game at the 1.03 release and was walking around as a gorge in ns_hera at holoroom, I soon found out that I could not only evolve but build stuff and was happilly saving up res for the two RT's and loads (and I mean loads!) of OC. I thought I was complety invincible with all that stuff as my base. At the time I had no idea I had to build upgrade chambers and hives, so the team started to complain and also starting to educate me into how I should do all that. But as soon as I was setting of in the direction of a hive (following a skulk who was teaching me NS) all hell broke loose in my precious OC room with loads of explosions without any idea where the hell it came from. We lost that round and the whole team was laughing in the readyroom when it was over. I then was told to go gorge again on the next round and follow other around as they told me what to do (and as such I learned how to play NS the hard way <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> ). Then soon after that, 1.04 came along with probably it most dominant feature the useable phasegate. Players were complaining about being in combat the strafing over the phasegate and *plop* you're no longer defending the area, but in a totally different place (so this got fixed)
During development of NS2.0, I guess. A new idea came along about making NS fast paced, combat was introduced and classic its rts part was crippled with each release to make classic more fast paced (aka like combat). Most players back then thought, hey a new game mode, let's try it. After which they came flying back to classic, because it wasn't NS in their opinion only to find out that classic 2.0 was somehow different as well. <b>Sure the correctly aligned skulks were good to see, but wth happened to the res system, hive dependant life forms, noname, perma gorge, lerk spikes and babblers and other FUN stuff</b>. The fun was sucked out of classic according to the established playerbase at the time and they simply stopped playing NS and also left for other games due to these huge changes to classic. Of course NS is way more stable now and probably more balanced, but the GAMEPLAY and FUN suffered a big blow back then.
After this the combat crowd started to grow, mostly because the classic servers were empty or had a very low population. Also siege/mvm/ava took over with loads of serverside modded servers, not to mention the competative scene wanted less atmosphere/detail(/doors?) and more light. In the end we have NS as it stands today... So don't go around saying that there are more players who like NS as it stands today based on this forum or playerbase, because those stats say absolutely nothing (most players who play a game don't register on forums). Overall playerbase remained the same and most of the people who liked NS pre 2.0 are no longer here to voice their complaints. Also back in the 1.04 age NS had around 600-700 servers online, probably the same as after 2.0 and 3.0. Atm it's even died down to ~190, but this is more because the game is old and newer games draw players away from here. Perhaps NS is more like Charlie had in mind, but alas he also hurt a lot of people their feelings with these sudden changes.
Some things shouldn't be changed yet they did change it and as a result left a lot of the oldschool playerbase wanting and eventually leaving NS all together.
If people want a combat type gameplay they can lua it, but I would love to see that Vanilla NS2 will bring back the GOOD NS that was 1.04. Sure it had bugs, but those could've been fixed. The total overhaul of NS classic was uncalled for and litterly was a stab to the heart of most players back then and probably what killed classic in the first place. I don't think you can call the NS gameplay today classic, since it barely resembles the real classic <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
I've asked my internet buddies of the NS1.04 era if they remember NS and all they say is: "Yeah I've tried the new version. But it is not what I remember it to be to tell you the truth I deinstalled it right after I played a few rounds" is the general response. I myself only have it installed to fool round with my map and add features. The only map with weldable resnode and team based interactive resnodes I might add <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" /> hey personal plug doesn't matter since there is also a huge fear for custom maps anyway, even if there are a lot of gems out there:
Wasn't the original plan to make combat the faced paced deathmatch type to bring in players who want that kind of game, with classic the RTS/RPG/FPS hybrid that made NS great and intuitive? Looks to me the devs made a few changes to NS with the introduction of combat and saw a huge initial grow in combat servers and then thought, hey let's make classic like combat with a little bit of RTS, maybe we will see even more players (without thought of what it might do to the already established playerbase for classic? Am I right, hmm? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> Sounds to me more like the "omg we have two games now to develop and the same amount of devs. To bad some of them also left though...
One last thing, comparing 1.04 to current classic and going on about "lols 1.04 was buggy and laggy and imbalanced" is kind of useless since that could've been fixed, while keeping the original gameplay intact. And 2.0-3.0 also had a lot longer development time to work out the kinks.
I'm not saying NS is bad atm, it's just very different. I personally don't really like NS enough in its current state to actually play it though with these changes for example --><ul><li>The very powerfull, nearly unstopable Onos. Obviously needs 3 hives to support it, since it is so powerfull. Which is now demoted to silly spacecow that can eat you only to die or be redeemed. AND AVAILABLE AS HIVE1 LIFEFORM?</li><li>The mighty dodgy Fade a real force to be reckoned with and needs 2 hives for support since it is a powerfull foe *cough* hive 1 lifeform*cough*</li><li>Not to mention the slow poke skulks, they were helluva fast back then even played as newbie player who don't know the bunnyhop nonsense</li></ul>I mean <b>WTF!!!</b> what were they thinking o.O" These things just send shivers down my spine...
Of course there are other things introduced, which are a welcome addition, lerk flight system, correctly aligned skulks, weapon fixes, hitbox fixes, jetpack with a punch and lots of other stuff. But those are not extreme gameplay change, but simply making an existing system better. They went overboard with changing stuff and resulted in losing a lot of players while gradually gaining other players. we can argue all day long about ns1.04 vs current NS, but in the end it is and will always be personal preference. But one thing we can all agree on is that the RTS part of the game is only an extremely small fraction of what it used to be...
/Kouji_San Security Feature (kicked in late): Rant mode turned off...
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sure the correctly aligned skulks were good to see, but wth happened to the res system, hive dependant life forms, noname, perma gorge, lerk spikes and babblers and other FUN stuff.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe never seeing an onos, ever, or having to condemn one player and one player only to permanent gorgehood unless you wanted to lose horribly, or crazy basekilling ultraccurate hitscan silent spikes of doom, or retarded demi-skulks which were only good for laughing at aren't everyone's idea of fun. I personally find the current version of NS to be a lot better than 1.04. Do I miss some stuff? Yes. I miss noname (although the removal of that is not combat's fault!), I miss the spikes a little (I doubt you can call that combat's fault either), and I miss the old blink (I liked it when my enemy got stuck in a wall). But I think you're just wearing a big ol' set of rose colored glasses, which turn combat an ugly shade of green simply because it wasn't around in the beginning.
Oh, the release of Half Life 2, Halo 2 and the World of Warcraft as well as a host of Source Mods (DOD, CS:S) and other competition surely could not have been another reason... (/sarcasm <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />)
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
edited October 2007
<!--quoteo(post=1656739:date=Oct 18 2007, 11:40 PM:name=Max)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Max @ Oct 18 2007, 11:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1656739"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We have no plans to create a separate combat game mode in NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As I wrote out my list I was all for including combat until I realized it would take longer for NS2 to come out. One polished game is better than two not so polished games.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Some people actually liked the perma gorge role though, so the boring or whatever people call it is not speaking for most people though... Also I didn't say it was combat's fault entirely, it had way more circumstances then just saying combat did it. It just drove away a lot of people along with a lot of the changes made to 1.04 versus later versions. But in itself also attracted a lot of other players. The dieing currently is more because NS is old and well... OLD <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
1.04 had it flawes and bugs and imbalances, I can't disagree there. That was a hard cold fact. But from 2.0 and later the game its core/essense changed WAY to much and that is most likely what drove away the settled playerbase. Which then, as I said, attracted a new playerbase.
I'm just afraid of the devs creating once again two games (like currently) and deviding limited resources between two products. They should focus on a good core-gameplay and let external modding do their thing for alternative game modes. Also they shouldn't stray away from the core gameplay like they did with the 1.0-->2.0+ step in development, since they did lose a lot of players. And don't we all want MORE PLAYERS to shoot at <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
I'm all for a modable game and community is the key to success. A modable game is the key to a good mod community. But doing it all yourself, is a dangerous thing to do. Releasedates/patching and loads of other things that have to be done, that weren't needed on the ancient hl1 engine. A new engine needs an exponetial amount of work compared to the oldschool goldSRC.
If you want strategic gameplay, you play NS. That's what it's for, that's its shtick or calling card.
It would be a waste of the developers' time to deviate from that element, as there are many games you can play that require no cognitive ability whatsoever.
I found NS 1.04 awesomely fun, mostly because it was new.
IMO the current version is the best by far. Looking back on 1.04, I think I/we only found it so fun because we didnt actually know what we were doing. Just like how Bast was so awesome; if we knew what we were doing, the aliens would have been screwed every time. But we didn't, and simply looked at it with open eyes, and loved it.
I absolutely agree that the comp scene has been given too much weight. The main maps of NS look like empty arenas, not actual scifi-settings. The biggest force thats tried to drive me away from NS is exactly that; the maps have become more and more bland, and maps *are* the game world. The gameplay of NS is still so phenomenal that its kept me fighting on the taniths, veils and eclipses (/repeat), while always voting for the heras, machinas, shivas, metals.
I dont care for combat. It has the same lack of depth as CS does, which is what drove me from that game after 4 years of it (once i saw the NS light).
But a lot of people do enjoy combat, and they should have their version as well, imo.
Clearly there is interest in both games. The obvious solution : integrate them! Hives, siege, buildmenus, res towers, and of course commanders. I think it can be done with a few months of play testing.
Anyone who believes it was combat that lowered the population is deluded. First of all, you can't make that claim without real statistics not your "feel" statistics. Secondly as mentioned, quite a few new games came out. There's a lot of variables. You can't make some large assumption like "combat ruined the game" or "no more babblers is no more fun for everyone".
I really don't get some of the people here... They say co has destroyed ns... But on the other hand well a quick round of co and then change to map according to the outcome of that round..err.. THAT would destroy ns! Ns wasn't destroyed, it's just that a lot of ns servers have disappeared, but if it's because of co? I don't know that. Combat gives a lot of new players the chance to sense what everything does, while ns would make them rather holding back to try new things.
So do we want combat? Why not? It's seperate and it's not why people should play natural selection. But I sure want to try all the classes and how they feel on the source engine, if you catch my drift!
I think the second page of discussion has more rounded arguments; I personally liked responses by Sarisel however I think it failed due to other or more reasons than the one stated there;
Hopefully people will realise its Lua and not LUA, as Max pointed out; one's a code and one's a set of rules/contract.
Speculation: Perhaps there will be a more direct combat relation in the way NS is played. Like a later versions of battlefield and Quake Wars perhaps characters and players will evolve more directly as they play. The longer they play and more kills or objectives they complete gives them direct XP that will allow them to choose an upgrade.
I remember when aliens could use phase gates.. now THAT was fun Kouji_san I'm not sure if was those changes that ruined it for me tho, I think I got tired of the CS players coming to NS with their inflated, fragile egos (I shouldn't judge, but most seem so, which put me off after a while)
I miss spikes also which maybe an alt fire feature in NS2? #1 Bite, #2 Spikes Mode - perhaps spikes upgrades like poison, slow could be potential upgrades..? (Speculating) Hive dependant Life Forms, ugh, I agree also.
"this is more because the game is old and newer games draw players away from here. " This is my reason for going, as well as "IRL" issues.
"Not to mention the slow poke skulks, they were helluva fast back then even played as newbie player who don't know the bunnyhop nonsense" I think I left far before there was any speed slow down.. which from what I read is very bad.. I love the speed advantages the aliens had...
Ill leave it at that for now, there were good responses after this, but they don't need anything added to it.. and I'm tired <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1657410:date=Oct 23 2007, 10:02 PM:name=Radix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Radix @ Oct 23 2007, 10:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1657410"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Statistics wouldn't help either.
NS2 is a <b>completely new game</b> and it's not going to be Classic and it's not going to be Combat. Let them go, and let it evolve.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well said.
It's hard to come to terms with the fact that NS2 will be a very different game. I like the fact that NS is hardcore, requiring gobs of game knowledge and instincts to have good strategic awareness. At the same time I wish it was more accessible to other players. I have faith in Charlie and Max, but it's hard not to lean too far towards one perspective or the other.
My opinion is about the same with Kouji_san. Although I only got into NS at the later half of 1.03, in retrospec, I believe I loved it for its smaller community at the time. People were much more patient and everyone was still learning to play the game. Mistakes were easily overlooked because no one was yet an elitist. I remember how helpful people were back then, maybe because everyone wanted to encourage newbies to stay with the game so that the community would expand. As the community grew and people knew the ins and outs of the game, the NS scene became gritty with elitists. The difference between a veteran player and a newbie was noticeable. Even I grew impatient at the lack of skill of newbies. Although frustrating, teams would usually be balanced and the game remained fun.
Then came CO and I soon stopped playing afterwards. It was hard to find a good NS only server. Many servers allowed voting and once CO maps were voted in, NS never got back into rotation. I went back to DoD for a while and then took up WoW when that came out.
<!--quoteo(post=1656652:date=Oct 18 2007, 09:34 PM:name=kyliegirl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(kyliegirl @ Oct 18 2007, 09:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1656652"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->personally i think combat ruined ns for gameplay reasons..
before combat there were so many ppl playing ns, and more teamwork was used.
when combat came out everyone only placed co maps, the teamwork in ns maps went to ziltch and then more than half of the australian gaming community for ns left because ns lost its fun etc because of co..
i dont like co, never have and always thought it was a bad idea.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly. Combat was an experiment that went terribly wrong. It just increased the number of the "pr0-NS-Players" who came from the Counter Strike scene and ruined many public servers with their behaviour. Most of the game style got changed because of them because for them NS is about "who has the most frags and the less deaths", simply it's about "stats" only and nobody really cares about anything. A "CS-Statter" can't be bothered to go gorge and build rts or go skulk and scout around and kill rts.
It's not even better on the marine side. Nobody wants to build structures because they want to go outside and go fragging as soon as possible. The only thing they need is an armory. Another thing that I've noticed is that they prefer to go on their own rather than walking around in groups. But when a fade shows up they start to whine...sometimes a good skulk player is enough to make them go nuts.
Please don't include combat and bring us back the original feeling of the game <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
I started playing NS for it's strategy mixed with first person. If NS had been just Combat I never would have bothered playing it. It would have just been another mod. The problem that comes with Combat is the majority in pub only join up on combat servers and never bother with NS. Even on an NS server they had to run Combat maps just to get enough people to attempt an NS map. Having only NS mode would allow servers more time to build up regular players and time for newbies to all learn the game better. If you gave them all the option at the start they may just think NS mode is too difficult or confusing and they may not give it a chance.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1660277:date=Nov 12 2007, 05:47 AM:name=resresres)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(resresres @ Nov 12 2007, 05:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1660277"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If you want to reformat the text a way you can understand, by all means. I had thought that
Reason: Pro: Con:
was a simple and consistent formatting. <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not to mention the slow poke skulks, they were helluva fast back then even played as newbie player who don't know the bunnyhop nonsense<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Skulks are still very fast, I think people have just gotten used to the speed.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited November 2007
Wasn't it Flayra himself who said that the skulks should be slowed down so newbie players could get better control of movement when playing them? Better control perhaps, but without the current 1337 bunnyhopping skills they are free target practice for marines, which kind of negates what he said <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Havn't time to read everything. About "pro-con fight" :
I've started to play at v3.0b1, so i don't really know how game was before. But i can imagine it by viewing how does the combat evolved. I mean at the beginning, there was just 10 lvls, was to us to take the upgrades, thinking about what lifeform we want to play when we reached max lvl (it means not taking more than 5 points if we wanted to onos, 6 if we wanted to fade ...)
Now, we have "extralevel loulkthxbye xmenu". players with 24 lvls, who has a hmg which each ball deal more damage than one sg shoot and onoses with 1800hp. Ppl build ocs everywhere and everyone is rushing, without caring about ambushes. That's the worst "fun mod" i've ever play.
On the other hand, at the beginning i used combat mod to enhance my skills, like playing fade with only cele vs sgs lvl 3, lerking without upgrades to be more efficient with low adre and low speed.
What is booring in co is the "xp system". ppl just want to kill as many as possible, to have xp, more upgrades, and easy kills. Once good players have their upgrades (before opponents, like being lvl 6 and opponents lvl 3-4 max), it's impossible to the opponents to win. Maybe co have to be more restricted, like can't take hmg and jp before aliens have reached lvl 6, something like this ...
I just remembered something. On a server, there was a different kind of co, don't remember how this plug-in was called (and if it really was a plug-in btw). This game consist in building chambers/buildings to have upgrades. Aliens only can take sof if they have an sc. There is also ress nodes, and we can build one building per node capped. it's a kind of NS less aimed on ressources but there was some teamplay. I think doing something like that could be very nice to warm up or just having fun without rely on other teamates, cause the main pain of classic is that we have to rely on teamates, and if one of them does BIG sh**, game is wasted.
I've never liked Combat and here is my reason why.
NS Classic-
Res restriction keeps alien team from having large numbers of fades, onos, or lerks at any one time Upgrades tied to hives mean aliens may not ever get full upgrades and weapons during the course of a game Aliens are only allowed one upgrade from each structure type.
NS CO:
Aliens can have all upgrades, weapons, and stay the lifeform of their choice the entire game.
The alien team in Classic is not the same as the alien team in CO. The marine team is very simular, as they can and often do get full tech levels in either game and the frequency of advance weps is consistant once those weps are avialible.
It is impossible from the different rules and goals of Classic and CO to make one set of numbers (damage amounts, rate of fire, healing amounts, HP, AP, etc) that satisfy both games.
CO damaged Classic becuase life forms and abilities were made weaker. They we weaker becuase once someone could go fade or onos in CO, they could stay fade or onos. The entire alien team could go fade or onos and play the whole game like that. When you hop to Classic and the fades and onos are much rarer, they need to be more potent when they are in the game. The Same goes for hive three weapons. Xenocide doesn't one-shot LA marines becuase if it did marines would never win in CO maps. Acid Rocket only does as much damage as Gorge spit becuase if you had it do real damage 1 fade would cripple an entire marine team in ways they couldn't do much about. When these abilities are Classic, which is not often from my experiance, they either are not worth the energy to use orso late in the game there is no point to use them. Lerk Scream is great, but i only ever see it used for cracking open the CC
I've ran an NS server for the past 4ish years, (The worlds most EVIL NS Server) and as far as I've been able to determine, the rapid decline of NS as a whole occurred around the time span that the forums were down for like a year.
Yes, if you've played on my server, I run BOTS! (rcbots, not whichbots... hey, I help code them, get off my back) and as such my server has never been overly popular, but according to most server rating systems it's usually in the top 25 or so.
It's also heavily modded. In combat I run extra levels, but they only go up to 13, and theres no xmenu crap, because I find UA to be incredibly overpowered. I wrote a balancer plugin to base class-changing upgrades limited by time, so you cant go onos in 3 minutes and ruin the game for marines, and you cant go heavy in 3 minutes and ruin the game for aliens. I've also wrote plugins to nerf jetpacks based on their distance to the hive, and the hive heals itself inversely proportional to its health after its below half... which I still need to tweak.
Combat seems to be a good font of interesting things to mod to make the game more challenging while still keeping it fun, and most of the players seem to agree it is fun, aside from when my more skilled bots get damage 3 HMGs and rip through anything that moves with disturbing accuracy.
Classic on the other hand I don't have many plugins made for that. I think the only one I have that is classic-specific is a recycler plugin, which just fixes what I believe to be an oversight in the game itself. Theres no sense in having a defensive front that has been subsequently made useless by a farther front elsewhere in the map. The same people who think CO on my server is fun also believe NS to be fun.
So in the long run, I don't think CO killed NS. I think age did, as well as a lack of support. Does CO take away from NS? No, it's a completely different mode that doesn't have to be played if you don't want to play it. Does CO get more playtime than NS? Probably. Why? Because it's a simpler game to play that is straight forward and you don't have to rely on teamwork to win. Teamwork definitely helps, but it's not required. In NS games, blame often rests on the shoulders of one or two people who are hell-bent on not playing as a team to lose the game. One of the biggest things I've found in most multiplayer games is teamwork is practically non-existent. Probably stemming from the fact that most multiplayer players are early teens who think they have something to prove and 0mG!!1 I PwnT J00!!111one, which is actually why I quit counterstrike. I like the game, but I absolutely hate the playerbase.
Personally, I play CO more than NS, because I don't really like having to spend 2 hours on a single map getting nowhere quickly and generally ending up bored. Though I do play standard RTS games with a single map for 2 hours but thats typically because the focus of the map changes, and new goals are established as time progresses... and the maps in RTS games are slightly BIGGER!
<!--quoteo(post=1657410:date=Oct 23 2007, 09:02 PM:name=Radix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Radix @ Oct 23 2007, 09:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1657410"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS2 is a <b>completely new game</b> and it's not going to be Classic and it's not going to be Combat. Let them go, and let it evolve.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Why would people who like NS now want to play a <i>completely new game</i>?
ns was probably the best fps at the time of its release, cs was obviously more simplistic and catered for the masses but you really created something so new and original and well i cant remember how many days i spent in that game, 8+ hour sessions, i must admit though when combat came out i loved it so much the original gameplay lost its glamour.. it was still fun i just found unless u were with experienced players/clan .. especially on marine side you would mostly fail. The thing that made combat so fun was how much it increased the pace and excitement, like when u killl 6 marines as a skulk (and then win the game in 3 mins XD) just gets your heart racing but i spose is still just reflex/lag related gameplay. The teamplay/strategy gameplay from original mode is still heaps fun, takes longer but a big sense of accomplishment when you win. Anyway i listened to the podcast and that you are just making the best game you can and we can only hope it provides the best of both modes, i also had a thought that different maps could have different modes/objectives such as team fortress 2, just an idea because team fortress is obviously completely different to ns. whateva the case because i had left the game for almost 2 years now (stuid wow) i just wanted to express my happiness that i have found the youtube link that this sequel is actually being made and the ideas you already have implemented are astounding, i thought once i had seen portal that what could they think of next and the infestation generation was the answer, what will they think of next? we truly are in the greatest time of game development. sorry to sound so corny, just a fan. please email me straight away when u have release date. jks <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
In my newbish and compleatly late opinion yes it did. But i cant talk much, its just my opinion. I am really in a non favor standing of CO_maps, when map voteing comes up me and about 9 other players end up screaming at the other 13-20 that vote for the Co_maps because we hate CO. I like things to be slightly slower pased if not funner (in my opinion) like in Classic. I wasent around earlyer and i wish i was. but just goes to show that co also didnt nessisarraly "Kill" ns, cause if it did I wouldent be here, and it wouldent be going on to NS2, people wouldent be donateing and people wouldent be posting in these forums. My definition of dead dosent match NS's current state and i doubt it ever will. I have no trouble finding atleast one server that has pure classic servers (mixed in with seldomly picked and infamous Co maps) I really see a completely different feel between Co and Ns, in Co there is no "Team" need, if not just massing, "GUYS THEY ARE RUSHING OUR ONLY BASE WE CAN HAVE GET THEM!". As opposed to getting two hives seiged at one time and meraculasly winning due to strict team work and not just "Massing" or "Kama-Sulking" (Kamakazi sulk obveously).
<!--quoteo(post=1657077:date=Oct 22 2007, 02:30 AM:name=Sarisel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sarisel @ Oct 22 2007, 02:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1657077"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ns is dying as do many seniors - of old age and of neglect - and you'll likely go out the same way. Where's the logic in blaming a game mode that drew players away from a conservative and often unfun classical mode?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is logic, a game can be made or broke by things simmalar to that, i say Co maps >slightly< crippled the teamwork and took some of the more "Strategic" members out of the picture in favor of more selfish "Rez hoarding" members. Because, they think its their rez they can do w/e they want with and still win just like in Co maps. To find out that their teammates are yelling at them for having 100 res while they have 1 hive, and the members have 10-20 rez if not lower I am no where near a veteran, although in decent games i can manage a 50/50 score and i consider myself a decent newbie, but even i find myself spazzing out when people deside to go rambo with 100 res on the whole team not listening to any of the crys for help.
I myself have many of complaints, but i find Co the least of the problems, i wont dare blame CO maps for the lack of players on Ns as a whole, Its just that natural selection is on a old platform if you will, i had to search hard as heck (1 month) for a copy of half life one and pay 7$ for it just to play... I say that things will look up for natural selection "2" when it comes out with or WITHOUT combat maps
If anything Combat breathed new life into the dying NS scene..
NS <i>was</i> fun when no-one knew wtf they were doing and when maps lasted for 40+ mins.. But most of the fun stuff was taken out, and the 'uberleet' clan/players started to overpower the casual players on the pub servers and all hell broke loose. Fast forward ahead a few years: NS maps finish in 10mins, rines are backjumping faster than runspeed, and anything but focus fade is ubergimp.
Seriously.. Wtf is the point in playing NS when the marine team is spamming PG/siege outside the hive at 5-6mins? People obviously couldn't be bothered playing worthless games that were filled with e-peen foads and being abused for being a noob.
CO was basically a breakthrough for people who wanted a more casual approach to the game (as it didn't really require skill and was fast paced), and if it wasn't for CO, natural selection woulda died a <b>looong</b> time ago.
Look at NS at it's current state.. Sure, NS was fun, but the only real populated servers are custom servers that have a 14:1 CO:NS maplist ratio (the NS maps usually being siege maps).
Doesn't that say something? (and no, its not entirely custom NS' fault, it aided in the games longevity.)
It's hard to have something thats appealing at first and still appealing 4-5 years onwards, especially when you have competition (*cough*source engine/mmorpg's) and people obsessed with their 'leet skillz'.
Comments
Saying combat killed NS (classic) is a little to simplyfied. It had a big part in it, but there is way more to it then that. Watch out long read!!!
Life was good when NS was launched, I for one was introduced to the game at the 1.03 release and was walking around as a gorge in ns_hera at holoroom, I soon found out that I could not only evolve but build stuff and was happilly saving up res for the two RT's and loads (and I mean loads!) of OC. I thought I was complety invincible with all that stuff as my base. At the time I had no idea I had to build upgrade chambers and hives, so the team started to complain and also starting to educate me into how I should do all that. But as soon as I was setting of in the direction of a hive (following a skulk who was teaching me NS) all hell broke loose in my precious OC room with loads of explosions without any idea where the hell it came from. We lost that round and the whole team was laughing in the readyroom when it was over. I then was told to go gorge again on the next round and follow other around as they told me what to do (and as such I learned how to play NS the hard way <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> ). Then soon after that, 1.04 came along with probably it most dominant feature the useable phasegate. Players were complaining about being in combat the strafing over the phasegate and *plop* you're no longer defending the area, but in a totally different place (so this got fixed)
During development of NS2.0, I guess. A new idea came along about making NS fast paced, combat was introduced and classic its rts part was crippled with each release to make classic more fast paced (aka like combat). Most players back then thought, hey a new game mode, let's try it. After which they came flying back to classic, because it wasn't NS in their opinion only to find out that classic 2.0 was somehow different as well. <b>Sure the correctly aligned skulks were good to see, but wth happened to the res system, hive dependant life forms, noname, perma gorge, lerk spikes and babblers and other FUN stuff</b>. The fun was sucked out of classic according to the established playerbase at the time and they simply stopped playing NS and also left for other games due to these huge changes to classic. Of course NS is way more stable now and probably more balanced, but the GAMEPLAY and FUN suffered a big blow back then.
After this the combat crowd started to grow, mostly because the classic servers were empty or had a very low population. Also siege/mvm/ava took over with loads of serverside modded servers, not to mention the competative scene wanted less atmosphere/detail(/doors?) and more light. In the end we have NS as it stands today... So don't go around saying that there are more players who like NS as it stands today based on this forum or playerbase, because those stats say absolutely nothing (most players who play a game don't register on forums). Overall playerbase remained the same and most of the people who liked NS pre 2.0 are no longer here to voice their complaints. Also back in the 1.04 age NS had around 600-700 servers online, probably the same as after 2.0 and 3.0. Atm it's even died down to ~190, but this is more because the game is old and newer games draw players away from here. Perhaps NS is more like Charlie had in mind, but alas he also hurt a lot of people their feelings with these sudden changes.
Some things shouldn't be changed yet they did change it and as a result left a lot of the oldschool playerbase wanting and eventually leaving NS all together.
If people want a combat type gameplay they can lua it, but I would love to see that Vanilla NS2 will bring back the GOOD NS that was 1.04. Sure it had bugs, but those could've been fixed. The total overhaul of NS classic was uncalled for and litterly was a stab to the heart of most players back then and probably what killed classic in the first place. I don't think you can call the NS gameplay today classic, since it barely resembles the real classic <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
I've asked my internet buddies of the NS1.04 era if they remember NS and all they say is: "Yeah I've tried the new version. But it is not what I remember it to be to tell you the truth I deinstalled it right after I played a few rounds" is the general response. I myself only have it installed to fool round with my map and add features. The only map with weldable resnode and team based interactive resnodes I might add <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" /> hey personal plug doesn't matter since there is also a huge fear for custom maps anyway, even if there are a lot of gems out there:
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=82398" target="_blank">released maps</a>
<a href="http://www.brywright.co.uk/downloads/files/index.php?dir=natural-selection/maps/ns/" target="_blank">bry ns file server</a>
Wasn't the original plan to make combat the faced paced deathmatch type to bring in players who want that kind of game, with classic the RTS/RPG/FPS hybrid that made NS great and intuitive? Looks to me the devs made a few changes to NS with the introduction of combat and saw a huge initial grow in combat servers and then thought, hey let's make classic like combat with a little bit of RTS, maybe we will see even more players (without thought of what it might do to the already established playerbase for classic? Am I right, hmm? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> Sounds to me more like the "omg we have two games now to develop and the same amount of devs. To bad some of them also left though...
One last thing, comparing 1.04 to current classic and going on about "lols 1.04 was buggy and laggy and imbalanced" is kind of useless since that could've been fixed, while keeping the original gameplay intact. And 2.0-3.0 also had a lot longer development time to work out the kinks.
I'm not saying NS is bad atm, it's just very different. I personally don't really like NS enough in its current state to actually play it though with these changes for example --><ul><li>The very powerfull, nearly unstopable Onos. Obviously needs 3 hives to support it, since it is so powerfull. Which is now demoted to silly spacecow that can eat you only to die or be redeemed. AND AVAILABLE AS HIVE1 LIFEFORM?</li><li>The mighty dodgy Fade a real force to be reckoned with and needs 2 hives for support since it is a powerfull foe *cough* hive 1 lifeform*cough*</li><li>Not to mention the slow poke skulks, they were helluva fast back then even played as newbie player who don't know the bunnyhop nonsense</li></ul>I mean <b>WTF!!!</b> what were they thinking o.O" These things just send shivers down my spine...
Of course there are other things introduced, which are a welcome addition, lerk flight system, correctly aligned skulks, weapon fixes, hitbox fixes, jetpack with a punch and lots of other stuff. But those are not extreme gameplay change, but simply making an existing system better. They went overboard with changing stuff and resulted in losing a lot of players while gradually gaining other players. we can argue all day long about ns1.04 vs current NS, but in the end it is and will always be personal preference. But one thing we can all agree on is that the RTS part of the game is only an extremely small fraction of what it used to be...
/Kouji_San Security Feature (kicked in late): Rant mode turned off...
Maybe never seeing an onos, ever, or having to condemn one player and one player only to permanent gorgehood unless you wanted to lose horribly, or crazy basekilling ultraccurate hitscan silent spikes of doom, or retarded demi-skulks which were only good for laughing at aren't everyone's idea of fun. I personally find the current version of NS to be a lot better than 1.04. Do I miss some stuff? Yes. I miss noname (although the removal of that is not combat's fault!), I miss the spikes a little (I doubt you can call that combat's fault either), and I miss the old blink (I liked it when my enemy got stuck in a wall). But I think you're just wearing a big ol' set of rose colored glasses, which turn combat an ugly shade of green simply because it wasn't around in the beginning.
As I wrote out my list I was all for including combat until I realized it would take longer for NS2 to come out. One polished game is better than two not so polished games.
Edit: typo
1.04 had it flawes and bugs and imbalances, I can't disagree there. That was a hard cold fact. But from 2.0 and later the game its core/essense changed WAY to much and that is most likely what drove away the settled playerbase. Which then, as I said, attracted a new playerbase.
I'm just afraid of the devs creating once again two games (like currently) and deviding limited resources between two products. They should focus on a good core-gameplay and let external modding do their thing for alternative game modes. Also they shouldn't stray away from the core gameplay like they did with the 1.0-->2.0+ step in development, since they did lose a lot of players. And don't we all want MORE PLAYERS to shoot at <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
I'm all for a modable game and community is the key to success. A modable game is the key to a good mod community. But doing it all yourself, is a dangerous thing to do. Releasedates/patching and loads of other things that have to be done, that weren't needed on the ancient hl1 engine. A new engine needs an exponetial amount of work compared to the oldschool goldSRC.
It would be a waste of the developers' time to deviate from that element, as there are many games you can play that require no cognitive ability whatsoever.
IMO the current version is the best by far. Looking back on 1.04, I think I/we only found it so fun because we didnt actually know what we were doing. Just like how Bast was so awesome; if we knew what we were doing, the aliens would have been screwed every time. But we didn't, and simply looked at it with open eyes, and loved it.
I absolutely agree that the comp scene has been given too much weight. The main maps of NS look like empty arenas, not actual scifi-settings. The biggest force thats tried to drive me away from NS is exactly that; the maps have become more and more bland, and maps *are* the game world. The gameplay of NS is still so phenomenal that its kept me fighting on the taniths, veils and eclipses (/repeat), while always voting for the heras, machinas, shivas, metals.
I dont care for combat. It has the same lack of depth as CS does, which is what drove me from that game after 4 years of it (once i saw the NS light).
But a lot of people do enjoy combat, and they should have their version as well, imo.
Anyone who believes it was combat that lowered the population is deluded. First of all, you can't make that claim without real statistics not your "feel" statistics. Secondly as mentioned, quite a few new games came out. There's a lot of variables. You can't make some large assumption like "combat ruined the game" or "no more babblers is no more fun for everyone".
NS2 is a <b>completely new game</b> and it's not going to be Classic and it's not going to be Combat. Let them go, and let it evolve.
Ns wasn't destroyed, it's just that a lot of ns servers have disappeared, but if it's because of co? I don't know that. Combat gives a lot of new players the chance to sense what everything does, while ns would make them rather holding back to try new things.
So do we want combat? Why not? It's seperate and it's not why people should play natural selection. But I sure want to try all the classes and how they feel on the source engine, if you catch my drift!
Hopefully people will realise its Lua and not LUA, as Max pointed out; one's a code and one's a set of rules/contract.
Speculation: Perhaps there will be a more direct combat relation in the way NS is played. Like a later versions of battlefield and Quake Wars perhaps characters and players will evolve more directly as they play. The longer they play and more kills or objectives they complete gives them direct XP that will allow them to choose an upgrade.
I remember when aliens could use phase gates.. now THAT was fun Kouji_san
I'm not sure if was those changes that ruined it for me tho, I think I got tired of the CS players coming to NS with their inflated, fragile egos
(I shouldn't judge, but most seem so, which put me off after a while)
I miss spikes also which maybe an alt fire feature in NS2? #1 Bite, #2 Spikes Mode - perhaps spikes upgrades like poison, slow could be potential upgrades..? (Speculating)
Hive dependant Life Forms, ugh, I agree also.
"this is more because the game is old and newer games draw players away from here. " This is my reason for going, as well as "IRL" issues.
"Not to mention the slow poke skulks, they were helluva fast back then even played as newbie player who don't know the bunnyhop nonsense"
I think I left far before there was any speed slow down.. which from what I read is very bad.. I love the speed advantages the aliens had...
Ill leave it at that for now, there were good responses after this, but they don't need anything added to it.. and I'm tired <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
NS2 is a <b>completely new game</b> and it's not going to be Classic and it's not going to be Combat. Let them go, and let it evolve.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well said.
It's hard to come to terms with the fact that NS2 will be a very different game. I like the fact that NS is hardcore, requiring gobs of game knowledge and instincts to have good strategic awareness. At the same time I wish it was more accessible to other players. I have faith in Charlie and Max, but it's hard not to lean too far towards one perspective or the other.
Then came CO and I soon stopped playing afterwards. It was hard to find a good NS only server. Many servers allowed voting and once CO maps were voted in, NS never got back into rotation. I went back to DoD for a while and then took up WoW when that came out.
before combat there were so many ppl playing ns, and more teamwork was used.
when combat came out everyone only placed co maps, the teamwork in ns maps went to ziltch and then more than half of the australian gaming community for ns left because ns lost its fun etc because of co..
i dont like co, never have and always thought it was a bad idea.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly. Combat was an experiment that went terribly wrong. It just increased the number of the "pr0-NS-Players" who came from the Counter Strike scene and ruined many public servers with their behaviour. Most of the game style got changed because of them because for them NS is about "who has the most frags and the less deaths", simply it's about "stats" only and nobody really cares about anything.
A "CS-Statter" can't be bothered to go gorge and build rts or go skulk and scout around and kill rts.
It's not even better on the marine side. Nobody wants to build structures because they want to go outside and go fragging as soon as possible. The only thing they need is an armory. Another thing that I've noticed is that they prefer to go on their own rather than walking around in groups. But when a fade shows up they start to whine...sometimes a good skulk player is enough to make them go nuts.
Please don't include combat and bring us back the original feeling of the game <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
Oranges and Apples.
So like,
NS:Classic -
Pros:
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Cons:
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NS: Combat -
Pros:
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Cons:
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If you want to reformat the text a way you can understand, by all means. I had thought that
Reason:
Pro:
Con:
was a simple and consistent formatting.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not to mention the slow poke skulks, they were helluva fast back then even played as newbie player who don't know the bunnyhop nonsense<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Skulks are still very fast, I think people have just gotten used to the speed.
I've started to play at v3.0b1, so i don't really know how game was before. But i can imagine it by viewing how does the combat evolved. I mean at the beginning, there was just 10 lvls, was to us to take the upgrades, thinking about what lifeform we want to play when we reached max lvl (it means not taking more than 5 points if we wanted to onos, 6 if we wanted to fade ...)
Now, we have "extralevel loulkthxbye xmenu". players with 24 lvls, who has a hmg which each ball deal more damage than one sg shoot and onoses with 1800hp. Ppl build ocs everywhere and everyone is rushing, without caring about ambushes. That's the worst "fun mod" i've ever play.
On the other hand, at the beginning i used combat mod to enhance my skills, like playing fade with only cele vs sgs lvl 3, lerking without upgrades to be more efficient with low adre and low speed.
What is booring in co is the "xp system". ppl just want to kill as many as possible, to have xp, more upgrades, and easy kills. Once good players have their upgrades (before opponents, like being lvl 6 and opponents lvl 3-4 max), it's impossible to the opponents to win. Maybe co have to be more restricted, like can't take hmg and jp before aliens have reached lvl 6, something like this ...
I just remembered something. On a server, there was a different kind of co, don't remember how this plug-in was called (and if it really was a plug-in btw). This game consist in building chambers/buildings to have upgrades. Aliens only can take sof if they have an sc. There is also ress nodes, and we can build one building per node capped. it's a kind of NS less aimed on ressources but there was some teamplay.
I think doing something like that could be very nice to warm up or just having fun without rely on other teamates, cause the main pain of classic is that we have to rely on teamates, and if one of them does BIG sh**, game is wasted.
NS Classic-
Res restriction keeps alien team from having large numbers of fades, onos, or lerks at any one time
Upgrades tied to hives mean aliens may not ever get full upgrades and weapons during the course of a game
Aliens are only allowed one upgrade from each structure type.
NS CO:
Aliens can have all upgrades, weapons, and stay the lifeform of their choice the entire game.
The alien team in Classic is not the same as the alien team in CO. The marine team is very simular, as they can and often do get full tech levels in either game and the frequency of advance weps is consistant once those weps are avialible.
It is impossible from the different rules and goals of Classic and CO to make one set of numbers (damage amounts, rate of fire, healing amounts, HP, AP, etc) that satisfy both games.
CO damaged Classic becuase life forms and abilities were made weaker. They we weaker becuase once someone could go fade or onos in CO, they could stay fade or onos. The entire alien team could go fade or onos and play the whole game like that. When you hop to Classic and the fades and onos are much rarer, they need to be more potent when they are in the game.
The Same goes for hive three weapons. Xenocide doesn't one-shot LA marines becuase if it did marines would never win in CO maps. Acid Rocket only does as much damage as Gorge spit becuase if you had it do real damage 1 fade would cripple an entire marine team in ways they couldn't do much about. When these abilities are Classic, which is not often from my experiance, they either are not worth the energy to use orso late in the game there is no point to use them. Lerk Scream is great, but i only ever see it used for cracking open the CC
Yes, if you've played on my server, I run BOTS! (rcbots, not whichbots... hey, I help code them, get off my back) and as such my server has never been overly popular, but according to most server rating systems it's usually in the top 25 or so.
It's also heavily modded. In combat I run extra levels, but they only go up to 13, and theres no xmenu crap, because I find UA to be incredibly overpowered. I wrote a balancer plugin to base class-changing upgrades limited by time, so you cant go onos in 3 minutes and ruin the game for marines, and you cant go heavy in 3 minutes and ruin the game for aliens. I've also wrote plugins to nerf jetpacks based on their distance to the hive, and the hive heals itself inversely proportional to its health after its below half... which I still need to tweak.
Combat seems to be a good font of interesting things to mod to make the game more challenging while still keeping it fun, and most of the players seem to agree it is fun, aside from when my more skilled bots get damage 3 HMGs and rip through anything that moves with disturbing accuracy.
Classic on the other hand I don't have many plugins made for that. I think the only one I have that is classic-specific is a recycler plugin, which just fixes what I believe to be an oversight in the game itself. Theres no sense in having a defensive front that has been subsequently made useless by a farther front elsewhere in the map. The same people who think CO on my server is fun also believe NS to be fun.
So in the long run, I don't think CO killed NS. I think age did, as well as a lack of support. Does CO take away from NS? No, it's a completely different mode that doesn't have to be played if you don't want to play it. Does CO get more playtime than NS? Probably. Why? Because it's a simpler game to play that is straight forward and you don't have to rely on teamwork to win. Teamwork definitely helps, but it's not required. In NS games, blame often rests on the shoulders of one or two people who are hell-bent on not playing as a team to lose the game. One of the biggest things I've found in most multiplayer games is teamwork is practically non-existent. Probably stemming from the fact that most multiplayer players are early teens who think they have something to prove and 0mG!!1 I PwnT J00!!111one, which is actually why I quit counterstrike. I like the game, but I absolutely hate the playerbase.
Personally, I play CO more than NS, because I don't really like having to spend 2 hours on a single map getting nowhere quickly and generally ending up bored. Though I do play standard RTS games with a single map for 2 hours but thats typically because the focus of the map changes, and new goals are established as time progresses... and the maps in RTS games are slightly BIGGER!
I just thought I'd throw out my buck-o-five.
Why would people who like NS now want to play a <i>completely new game</i>?
In my newbish and compleatly late opinion yes it did. But i cant talk much, its just my opinion. I am really in a non favor standing of CO_maps, when map voteing comes up me and about 9 other players end up screaming at the other 13-20 that vote for the Co_maps because we hate CO. I like things to be slightly slower pased if not funner (in my opinion) like in Classic. I wasent around earlyer and i wish i was. but just goes to show that co also didnt nessisarraly "Kill" ns, cause if it did I wouldent be here, and it wouldent be going on to NS2, people wouldent be donateing and people wouldent be posting in these forums.
My definition of dead dosent match NS's current state and i doubt it ever will. I have no trouble finding atleast one server that has pure classic servers (mixed in with seldomly picked and infamous Co maps)
I really see a completely different feel between Co and Ns, in Co there is no "Team" need, if not just massing, "GUYS THEY ARE RUSHING OUR ONLY BASE WE CAN HAVE GET THEM!". As opposed to getting two hives seiged at one time and meraculasly winning due to strict team work and not just "Massing" or "Kama-Sulking" (Kamakazi sulk obveously).
<!--quoteo(post=1657077:date=Oct 22 2007, 02:30 AM:name=Sarisel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sarisel @ Oct 22 2007, 02:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1657077"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ns is dying as do many seniors - of old age and of neglect - and you'll likely go out the same way. Where's the logic in blaming a game mode that drew players away from a conservative and often unfun classical mode?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is logic, a game can be made or broke by things simmalar to that, i say Co maps >slightly< crippled the teamwork and took some of the more "Strategic" members out of the picture in favor of more selfish "Rez hoarding" members. Because, they think its their rez they can do w/e they want with and still win just like in Co maps. To find out that their teammates are yelling at them for having 100 res while they have 1 hive, and the members have 10-20 rez if not lower
I am no where near a veteran, although in decent games i can manage a 50/50 score and i consider myself a decent newbie, but even i find myself spazzing out when people deside to go rambo with 100 res on the whole team not listening to any of the crys for help.
<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/asrifle.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::asrifle::" border="0" alt="asrifle.gif" /> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/hive5.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::hive::" border="0" alt="hive5.gif" /> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/pudgy.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::gorge::" border="0" alt="pudgy.gif" /> <<< Rambo
I myself have many of complaints, but i find Co the least of the problems, i wont dare blame CO maps for the lack of players on Ns as a whole, Its just that natural selection is on a old platform if you will, i had to search hard as heck (1 month) for a copy of half life one and pay 7$ for it just to play... I say that things will look up for natural selection "2" when it comes out with or WITHOUT combat maps
ban the co! ban the co! ban the co! ban the co!
Ban the CO! Ban The CO! Ban the CO!!
NS <i>was</i> fun when no-one knew wtf they were doing and when maps lasted for 40+ mins.. But most of the fun stuff was taken out, and the 'uberleet' clan/players started to overpower the casual players on the pub servers and all hell broke loose. Fast forward ahead a few years: NS maps finish in 10mins, rines are backjumping faster than runspeed, and anything but focus fade is ubergimp.
Seriously.. Wtf is the point in playing NS when the marine team is spamming PG/siege outside the hive at 5-6mins? People obviously couldn't be bothered playing worthless games that were filled with e-peen foads and being abused for being a noob.
CO was basically a breakthrough for people who wanted a more casual approach to the game (as it didn't really require skill and was fast paced), and if it wasn't for CO, natural selection woulda died a <b>looong</b> time ago.
Look at NS at it's current state.. Sure, NS was fun, but the only real populated servers are custom servers that have a 14:1 CO:NS maplist ratio (the NS maps usually being siege maps).
Doesn't that say something? (and no, its not entirely custom NS' fault, it aided in the games longevity.)
It's hard to have something thats appealing at first and still appealing 4-5 years onwards, especially when you have competition (*cough*source engine/mmorpg's) and people obsessed with their 'leet skillz'.
Edit: Typos ftw.