Respawning; and how it could (should) be explained.
StixNStonz
Join Date: 2006-11-06 Member: 58439Members, Reinforced - Shadow
Join Date: 2006-11-06 Member: 58439Members, Reinforced - Shadow
<div class="IPBDescription">Clones, b****.</div>The Suspension of Disbelief is a requirement of video games, and when pulled off well, its their biggest asset.
If something seems unrealistic, or at least 'too fake', gamers lose their SoD, lose their immersion, and enjoy the game far less (e.g., Blink is unrealistic, but its a crazy alien, and Blink kinda 'feels right' for what it does.)
One thing that always annoyed me about video games, especially (but not necessarily) multiplayer, was dying. Mainly because you respawned within a few seconds. This game mechanic is actually no longer restricted to MP only, as we see with games like BioShock and Prey.
Pretty much every game I've ever seen that has respawning doesn't deal with any kind of explanation. You Just Died. Now You're Back. Go Die Again.
Its necessary that the player should not FULLY care about dying. If a player felt that dying in game was going to be similar to dying in real life, he wouldn't play the game. If theres no penalties for dying at all, you lose the suspension of disbelief, but potentially will enjoy the game more.
<!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->WHAT IM GETTING AT<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->, is that NS2 should still have respawning the way it currently is. But change the explanation. Right now, its; You're a nameless marine. You just died. Now you're another nameless marine.
This is the future, right? How about we futurize this concept?
<u>Try this on instead: The real marines are highly trained yadda yadda, but they actually control the body of a clone. They're linked in to the clones via a matrix-like connection. </u>
This ties off a lot of loose ends:
-It frees the subconscious 'guilt' of the player; he no longer feels like he SHOULD be caring about dying. "If I was actually this marine, I'd sure care about dying. I dont though. And I'm not going to. Oh well."
-It 'futurizes' the game; we're already on the brink of Cloning Tech. Far into the future, sure, robots may do all of our fighting, but nothing will ever compare to the simple dexterity, utility and power of basic infantry. If you can make a huge tank for $20 million, you can make a gun that a guy can carry, hide somewhere, and take the tank out. Even in the future, we'd want to use infantry; but we'd want to not lose any real people. Linked-in Clones are a very feasible solution.
-You can justify the number of marines. Looking at NS1, seeing these marines always phasing in but only with X amount of people, a realistically-minded player would say 'why wouldnt all the marines phase in at once at push with full force?' Noone asks this because the answer's obvious; its a game, you gotta respawn, and we dont want bots. But with Linked-in Clones, you could explain it by saying that 'we only have X number of Clone Operators.'
-You could justify respawn counts, like the Tickets of BF2 (should NS2 use them). You only have X number of clones. Done and done.
This idea is <i>ONLY</i> for the storyline of NS2. It requires no changing of the game mechanics, and could even create some inspiration for rooms in maps. It just needs to go-ahead from the devs.
I'm trying to make my way into the game development industry, and frankly, this was an idea I was planning to make use of down the road. But dammit, i just heart NS, and want to see NS2 done right. Doesn't mean that this idea is 'how to do NS2 right' (thats up to the devs); but it could be <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
Thoughts?
If something seems unrealistic, or at least 'too fake', gamers lose their SoD, lose their immersion, and enjoy the game far less (e.g., Blink is unrealistic, but its a crazy alien, and Blink kinda 'feels right' for what it does.)
One thing that always annoyed me about video games, especially (but not necessarily) multiplayer, was dying. Mainly because you respawned within a few seconds. This game mechanic is actually no longer restricted to MP only, as we see with games like BioShock and Prey.
Pretty much every game I've ever seen that has respawning doesn't deal with any kind of explanation. You Just Died. Now You're Back. Go Die Again.
Its necessary that the player should not FULLY care about dying. If a player felt that dying in game was going to be similar to dying in real life, he wouldn't play the game. If theres no penalties for dying at all, you lose the suspension of disbelief, but potentially will enjoy the game more.
<!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->WHAT IM GETTING AT<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->, is that NS2 should still have respawning the way it currently is. But change the explanation. Right now, its; You're a nameless marine. You just died. Now you're another nameless marine.
This is the future, right? How about we futurize this concept?
<u>Try this on instead: The real marines are highly trained yadda yadda, but they actually control the body of a clone. They're linked in to the clones via a matrix-like connection. </u>
This ties off a lot of loose ends:
-It frees the subconscious 'guilt' of the player; he no longer feels like he SHOULD be caring about dying. "If I was actually this marine, I'd sure care about dying. I dont though. And I'm not going to. Oh well."
-It 'futurizes' the game; we're already on the brink of Cloning Tech. Far into the future, sure, robots may do all of our fighting, but nothing will ever compare to the simple dexterity, utility and power of basic infantry. If you can make a huge tank for $20 million, you can make a gun that a guy can carry, hide somewhere, and take the tank out. Even in the future, we'd want to use infantry; but we'd want to not lose any real people. Linked-in Clones are a very feasible solution.
-You can justify the number of marines. Looking at NS1, seeing these marines always phasing in but only with X amount of people, a realistically-minded player would say 'why wouldnt all the marines phase in at once at push with full force?' Noone asks this because the answer's obvious; its a game, you gotta respawn, and we dont want bots. But with Linked-in Clones, you could explain it by saying that 'we only have X number of Clone Operators.'
-You could justify respawn counts, like the Tickets of BF2 (should NS2 use them). You only have X number of clones. Done and done.
This idea is <i>ONLY</i> for the storyline of NS2. It requires no changing of the game mechanics, and could even create some inspiration for rooms in maps. It just needs to go-ahead from the devs.
I'm trying to make my way into the game development industry, and frankly, this was an idea I was planning to make use of down the road. But dammit, i just heart NS, and want to see NS2 done right. Doesn't mean that this idea is 'how to do NS2 right' (thats up to the devs); but it could be <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
Thoughts?
Comments
5 seconds before your clone is ready for phase in you get blurry vision and can see yourself trough the eyes of the clone (same blurry vision for clonedeath). Afterwhich you phase into battle. This would take a lot of work ofcourse, but the "clone phasing ship" would ofcourse be used on all maps and thussly an one time workload.
If your clone has died, you could even get out of your chair and look on computer screens of the other soldiers currently in battle to get a general overview of what is going on while you're not there, no more 3rd person cameras. Or have you personal monitor (doom3 idea) to use and scroll trough cameraviews of your teamates, instead of the fullscreen view you have in NS1. Some scientists could be walking about the room and stuff you usually see happen in a typical science room. Also you would hear battle sounds from your teamates who didn't die trough their monitoring systems.
Random scientist/marine comments inside the clone phasing ship.
"Damnit we lost another one!"
"What the hell is wrong with you lot, this isn't a freaking video game for you to bust up!"
"We're gonnah run out of clones soon if these rookies don't get their act together soon"
"Godamnit Johnson, it's not like these clones don't cost anything. Now stop screwing up and stop wasting resources!"
and more...
Would make the respawn system much nicer and kind of interactive. What the heck we could even put the commander in this ship in a special clone commander interface setup. So if someone else wants to be commander (votekick) he has to exit his clone control chair and walk over to the commander chair. The commander doesn't have to use a clone since he has a topdown interface, would however disable his ability to jump out of the cc (NS1 style) to help defend. But then again it would also further emphasize that they are actyally not there, but using clones.
Even one step further then this!
Objective maps like combat, but instead of the simple combat gameplay it would actually use commander mode and a simplified version of the useable units and buildings. Aliens with 1 hive can only evolve with 1 hive a bilities (marines would be similar balanced) And they have to defend their clone phasing room, since now their own ship has been infested and they are actually fighting for their real lives if the clones fail.
3 step objectives for aliens:
- disable power connection to the marine main base
-- this would stop their turrets from working
-killing their clone base
--this would make the clone phase room undefended
-finally destroy the clone phase room and the last defending marines
--win <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
2 step objective for marines:
-keep the power on, if it is destroyed get over there and fix it
--defend the base, if power fails you are the last defense of the base (phasing still works)
-defend the clone room from infiltration/destruction
--death is permanent this time
ether way be the kharaa aliens or a stupid human exsperiment gone wrong they are now a ongoing social exsperiment for the TSA, basicly the TSA tho in essence are sort of hired gun's payed by all brought by no one, tho obiously your ships get higher priority the more you pay.
the on going social exsperiment basicly is doing the job for less, after all they are a corparation and they do require to make money to futher evolve and advance there technology for at least hte lowest possable dinominator for the most efficent out come
which is why they may only send two marines to a res node with one shot gun
they may have enough cash and enough man power at the time, to deck a squad or two out with HA and hmgs.
the other issue is your one man, with in a entire army, useing phase tech, you dont see the USA marching shoulder to shoulder across iraq with everything they have, its simply not phesable, so the reason you only have 7 men at your disposal and not 7 men all the time is the other soilders are ether getting RnR or are on another ship doing the exsact same ######, ergo the other 500 ns servers out there.
war is evolution, you said it your self, 10,000 dollar tank or one rocket luncher held by a infantry.
its all about doing more for less, by more i mean efficently, effectively, hastiely, with presition, by less i mean for less resources.
the other reason you dont see the best gun and so on is sure said ship owner paid you to clear it out, they also gave you control of any of there res nodes you can cap. why would the TSA use the start up payment to put them selves out of pocket.
no they will use that large amount of cash to develop new weapons create new hubs new bases to futher there enterprice and capture more market.
when they are on your ship on there dim, they are going to sit pritty and milk your res system for all its worth.
when you mentioned clones it seams to fit in more so with the kharaa idea up top, that the bacterium has constraints, that it can only produce at a perticular type in a perticular amount and that it is also smart and accesses the threat and doesnt use more energy than required to dispatch its threat. that each sulk is the exsact genetic replica of its predacessor, as the bacterium is programed to produce them that way. so that dont have extra teeth are malformed have longer snout different markings.
when but then that wouldnt fit ether, sure bacterium most likely could be programed in such a manner, but would most likely need a lot of technology to keep it in cheak, so the bacterium is also produceing slightly geneticly modifyed sulks all the time trying new things to see what works for less, before it documents these changes with in its self stores them and rites its success and faield attempts with in its own bacterium code, for it to mix and match and try even more possable combonations, which is why you should see sulks with maybe only a few long sharp teeth or lots of teeth some malformed spikes in different locations, diffrent markings and skin layouts, longer legs.
thats what gets me tho about players of this game your not robots, you can always better your selfs, sure you know the same strat every one else uses thats best for less, that doesnt mean you give up trying to find other strats or lsiten to others strats that use less or just as less with the same efficently or not.
me every game i try and find 3 new places to build OC defences thet bottle neck and choke and effectively stop movment thro entire parts of the map, some with long lead ups to furhter advance some with long tils to catch ninja's, some at cross sections, or my favorite some at locatins were marines jump down and find them selves traped with OC's all around. ms and 8 OC's if they relocate any one?
exspand a little, sure you know that if you get the first shot gun you can rush the hive and camp it, good ######ing O to you, you have a com up your ass no one can touch you. now drop your shot gun and live a little try doing it with your pistal or how about getting the ###### out of my spawn till you have earnt the rite to be there. or are logicaly there for some tactical reason other than to own face and tottaly ruin game play. till you team can seal off the hive and do the same thing.
It WOULD be pretty awesome to 'wake up' temporarily when your clone dies. A sudden jerk; you stay strapped in (or perhaps you can hit a button to get out and walk around), and you can look around at different things.
The devs could easily program some kind of entity so you could show the other player's views, with effects. Look at any in the Aliens series for inspiration.
You could also have a large-size minimap, perhaps specially made by the mapper to show 'the rest of the installation' as well as the actual map. This would look really cool, especially with little blips running around with their ID tags and such.
Basically, it would be a good amount of work for the modellers and animators, but its definitely feasible, and it would be REALLY cool and make NS REALLY stand out.
Kouji: Im not sure what you were talking about with the clone phase rooms and such. It would be awesome to have the 'prep' effect and the between-spawns effects, but it shouldn't go past that. Everything else in NS should be the same; when you're alive in the map, it should still feel just like NS.
And the comm should definitely still need to be in the map. You could perhaps have a fake 'overseer' or observer or something watching a ton of panels in the off-site ship, and maybe even find a new role for a player there. But the comm should still be in the map.
Nex... Just wanted to mention to you man, your posts have a very high tendency to go off-topic VERY quickly, and to be VERY long. Long posts are fine, but try to compartmentalize them (break them into separate issues or topics or ideas with underlined subheadings), or even add color to certain important words or phrases. I find myself almost always scrolling past your posts after only reading the first few lines; this would really help avoid that.
That last addition would just be a seperate game mode if it could be created with scripting at all of course (rambling/brainstorm <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> ).
A simple gameplay/story feature would be --> detection of infestation and one hive, limited resources to defend their clone phase ship. Would mean 33% capability of the marine and alien team, objective maps (not an actuall addition, but a custom community created alternative game mode)
I don't know if you like the "depraved futuristic apathy" feeling you get from a scenario like the first one I'm describing. I don't.
I don't know if you like the "depraved futuristic apathy" feeling you get from a scenario like the first one I'm describing. I don't.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not like the movie "The Island" (great movie btw!), just "brainless", computer controlled clones. All the rest would indeed be too morbid for the NS lore.
Phase tech is the future, move form one planet to the next accumulating res to produce the partical accerlerators that make phase tech work.
Humans are cheap, nasty and dirty, there weapons picked up and reused by the next meaty pop for the grinder, humans only need looking after for X years of there life, a robot needs maintinance all its life, it need upgrades forever, worked on, evently humans will carry there own weight and many others once adult hood, they think, they create, they are cheaper than clones, cheaper than robots, but not cheaper than phase tech, as phase tech requires a battery and some raw materials easly handleded by nannites, the phase tech then requires another raw material easly harvested with so many uses the main ones being phase tech and nanites.
doing more for less, besides it gives them a bigger ego to think that the human race is the bigest nastyest mofo across all galaxys.
If i was to put together a top ten ideas form ns2 forums list together this would defo be in it, aslong as the animations mentioned above were included