DCs gain Umbra.

StixNStonz · November 2007

<div class="IPBDescription">They could use a small boost. Read on for balancing.</div>Inspired by Gehirntot's thread called 'Some Alien and Marine Ideas'.
I actually misread his post; he suggested a cloud around DC's when they heal, but it would just heal teammates. I thought he meant it was umbra.

I found this idea actually pretty good, that when a DC heals, it releases umbra around itself. It would only get to release one cloud every 10 seconds (could be put to 12 or 15 if found to be unbalanced). Keep in mind that umbra only lasts 3 seconds (from balance.txt; compare to spore's lasting 6 seconds). As such, a dc would only keep itself and anything nearby in umbra for 3/10 seconds of continual healing.

DC could use a small boost. Its STILL the weakest first chamber, but its way, way closer to being balanced than before (from the last version update). If DC was given this small boost, IMO it would finally tip the balance to make them all even.

Next, I'll lay out every scenario (i could think of) that would be affected by this change. You can skip to the 'summary' at the end for the conclusions.

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Scenarios:

---DC Under a Hive:
Umbra can make or break a rush, thuogh not a siege. Furthermore, regular umbra comes from 2 hive lerks, who almost always have either adrenaline or an MC nearby, or both. Hence creating a situation where umbra can be continually applied and become extremely powerful against a rush.

With the new DC feature, the hive would only be partially kept in umbra; it would still take full damage more than 2/3rds of the time (7/10 seconds). Except this could be done at 1 hive, hence not only early game, but also late-game when the marines have already killed the 2nd hive and aliens have the odds stacked against them (odds which DO still pull off a win for aliens sometimes). This would be a slight boost.

Should it be found to be unbalanced: you can lower the umbra origin relative to the DC, making the top of the umbra cloud almost the same heigh as the DC, hence not providing cover for anything above it; as seen in so many Hive placements.

---DCs in vents:
The best tactic is to place your DCs throughout the map in vents, near critical locations. That lets your aliens go cara, and have free healstations in the map. They're pretty much equivalent to one gorge healspraying continually.

With the new DC feature, this scenario would be unchanged. The umbra would not reach outside the vent; and any marine attacking the DC would either be lobbing grenades at it (not affected by umbra) or being physically in the vent and likely knifing it (not affected by umbra).

Plus, the umbra would not be set off when attacked by marines, since it is not healing anything (DCs do not heal themselves anymore).

---Two DCs side by side:
Since the new patch, where DCs no longer stack, the only reason to put two DCs side by side is to heal each other (or potentially heal 'everybody' if more than 3 things were hurt nearby).

With the new DC feature, this scenario would be gain a small boost, since they would definitely heal one another and trigger the umbra. Umbra does not stack though, so it would not become overwhelming; and the DCs would almost always heal at the same time, hence trigger their umbra's at the same time.

The only potentially unbalanced situation would be off-set timing, where the DCs would release their umbra at separate intervals and create far more perpetual umbra. I believe this would take a fair amount of skill on the aliens' part to do, and hence would be balanced.

---DC and OCs:
Single DCs are great backup for OCs right now, thanks to the recent version. The umbra addition would boost this scenario significantly but not vastly. The OCs would likely benefit from the umbra, but still for less than 1/3rd of the time they're being healed.

---DC and Gorge combo:
Skilled gorges sometimes strategically drop a chamber in critical rooms at the outset. Consider Chem Trans; a gorge, doing MC first, would often put an MC inside the vent to gain the energy benefits while keeping it relatively secure.

Higher skilled gorges (though at higher risk) sometimes drop the MCs above on the Chem Trans middle platform area. This gives them the energy boost, but also a means of cover, as well of escape. When mixed with Celerity, a gorge in this situation can (1) spit continuously (preventing marines from entering, or damaging them when they do), (2) use his Hive Sight and speed to keep the MC between him and the marine, with skill, (3) heal the MC and himself continually (while also popping off spits), and (4) use the MC for escape should he get too low.

This is a phenomenal, though risky tactic for skilled gorges. A high payoff (if they can get a strategic OC up, the room can be practically locked already), with a chance of it all going bad (and hence losing an early MC).

With the new DC feature, DC's will gain strength in this scenario. An early, middle-of-room DC in a strategic location will gain a boost that could make it far more feasible as an early strat.

Currently, the gorge would have the benefits of both the DC regen and his own DC upgrade, but (1) without Celerity he would have much more difficult keeping the DC between him and the marine, and (2) in a bind he would not have the immediate escape opportunity that an MC offers.

With the new feature, the umbra, though not constant, would partially balance those comparative losses [(1) and (2)]. Umbra for 3/10 seconds could really help a gorge, with any DC upgrade and the DC regen, survive the ring-around-the-chamber game. Hence, it would balance the chamber slightly more with MC.

---DC and lone alien:
This would also receive a boost. Currently, its rare to see a DC without an OC nearby, unless you're in a hive, or the aliens are in the final push on Marine start and higher lifeforms are everywhere.

This new DC feature would give it more potential in these situations, as even skulks could make use of it intelligently. Perhaps a skulk would stay semi-hidden behind the DC, allowing a marine to hit him once. That would set off the DC, healing the skulk but also releasing the umbra. The skulk is now back at full health, against a marine with an emptier clip, and the skulk has cover, sight, and an extra few feet of temporary protection (from the umbra). It could make for some fantastic gameplay.

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Summary:

Big Changes:
DC(s) under a hive: Boosted, and signicantly, but not enough so to throw off the balance. Options are available, should a nerf for this situation be needed.
A lone DC and a lone Gorge: Would receive a decent boost; definitely needed.

Some Changes:
DC(s) and OC(s): Would receive a decent, but not too powerful boost.
A lone DC and a lone Alien: Would receive a decent boost; useful and much needed.

No Changes:
DC(s) in a vent: Completely unchanged.
Two DCs side by side: Would receive a small but rather redundant boost.

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I think I covered almost all the bases here. This seems like a very viable boost to the DC, and perhaps exactly what it needs to finally be a worthy first chamber.

Thoughts?

N_3 · November 2007

you missed multiple dc's in a hive. this is likely to give a constant umbra coverage and heal the hive. nevertheless having the same ability on the lerk and a chamber is a bit boring. either the lerk should get of its ass and start umbra'ing or not have it. also, the umbra cloud around the dc is going to be useless most the time, either its just an alien coming by to heal w/o marines or the marines are shooting aliens and the only thing getting defended by the umbra is a dc in the corner.

dc's would be better if they healed quicker imo.

yoda · November 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>* Modified defense chamber healing effect:
o A player or structure is only healed by a single defense chamber at a time.</div>

Balance is good.

Cataclyzm · November 2007

The game play is well thought out and makes the DC a more viable option as a first chamber, but I, personally, still have difficulty mimicking (though modified) a lifeforms ability. I do agree, however, that the DC is in need of a boost in one way or another, it and does seem more easily achieved by giving it an additional attribute besides healing... and N_3 may have nailed it. If the DC healed faster they may prove more useful as is. At least in my mind, I find it faster to race to a hive and heal up than wait by a DC when playing as a Lerk or higher life form. The current DCs are seem to be more useful for gorges, skulks, and lone OCs... and I wouldn't put too much weight on the skulk, because they tend to be do or die creatures. If they're victorious, there is usually a gorge nearby. If not, the hive is just a hop, skip, and a jump away.

Modify DC
*Thumbs Up*

Add Umbra Effect
*On the Fence*

StixNStonz · November 2007

Yoda, i dont really understand your message. You simply quoted part of the DC changelog from last version.

N_3, while i didnt specifically touch on 'multiple dcs in a hive', i did touch on 'dc under a hive' and 'two dcs together'.

If you add the two together, you'll notice that it doesnt actually screw balance. If you had two DCs under the hive, when would they start healing? As soon as the hive got hurt. Since their umbra is in the range of the hive, the hive is in range of the DC. Hence, they would both start healing (and, hence Umbra'ing) at the same time. Meaning that they would overlap their umbra for the 3 seconds of every 10 seconds, and it wouldn't be unbalanced.

The only situation where it could potentially be unbalanced would be with very, very careful placement, and very careful use. The gorges would have to leave a significant gap between the DCs (perhaps one in front of the hive and one behind); then a *hurt alien* would have to trigger the first DC, wait 3+ seconds, and trigger the 2nd. That would make the umbra get triggered at a staggered interval; but the interval would reset once the DCs stopped healing anything.

Hence the alien would have to do this RIGHT as a rush was coming. Not only would he have to be hurt, he would have to watch his location very carefully, not be fully healed in 3 seconds (by both the hive and a DC), and somehow get the DCs to keep healing something from then on, to keep the staggered interval.

Which, frankly, sounds like it would never, ever happen, except maybe once in a hundred game, by accident. Reminder: Siege is not affected by umbra at all, so this would only hurt a rush. And a 1-hive rush (since 2 hives = lerk's perma umbra).

I guess the conclusion of that is that no, two DCs under a hive, with the new umbra, would not be unbalanced.

StixNStonz · November 2007

Oh and i wanted to talk quickly about Cata's point, how DCs seem to take long to heal.

If a fade is badly hurt (150/0 perhaps), it would take a good while for the DCs to heal him. Maybe a full 20-30 seconds. A gorge, on the other hand, would take maybe 10-20, depending on if he has adren or an MC nearby.

Except of course, a gorge healing requires another player, his full attention, energy spend and vulnerability to attack. A DC on the other hand, costs only the 10 res that it takes to place it, and you're getting minimum 3 anyways. They should also be in a vent, allowing the fade to be nice and secure if he wants to be, or he can hang around in the main map, near the vent.

If a fade is really that hurt, he should probably find a gorge or the hive. But if he's only taken a bit of damage (say 250/50), he could heal up quite quickly with a DC, especially if coupled with Regen. A regen fade with 2+ DCs spread through the map could cause some very serious damage, even with only one hive.

But i'm just talking about DCs here, not about the new umbra effect im proposing. The umbra would mostly not affect the fade game. As i mentioned, it would have practically no effect on the dc-in-the-vent situation.

Cataclyzm · November 2007

Stix,
So are you saying that you feel that the DCs heal at an appropriate rate in there current state? They just need to be implemented the right way?
Those points make sense that in those situations the DCs become potent, but if...
a.) umbra were added, I suppose DCs would be encouraged as a possible Hive 1 chamber.
b.) umbra was not added, I feel that the DCs are still inferior and will hardly become Hive 1 chamber unless the heal rate is boosted.

So in my own conclusions, I guess I feel that either of those two situations would make the chamber more balanced with the others and encourage it as a Hive 1 chamber, but not both abilities together. But as I've said before, I'm on the fence about the umbra because it already happens to be a alien ability (if you care, maybe you can persuade me otherwise... but then again, I'm not making the game so who care what I think <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />)

Bacillus · November 2007

Assuming that your dc is based on ns 3.2:

DC is a killer chamber as soon as you've got players able to stick together. 4 skulks rushing your shotgun pushes out is really a pain. You simply don't have enough damage/second to take em out before its over. Or if you can get the time to deal some dmg, you'll end up running out of ammo. Cara fades rarely die unless they make a big mistake.

I'd love to see its use encouraged in public games, but its already quite a powerful chamber really.

StixNStonz · November 2007

Bac, I agree with you on that DC is already very powerful - if used properly. A cara skulk takes 14 lmg bullets to kill, instead of 10. Meaning 40% more.

A skulk with cel can close the gap more quickly; a skulk with silence can flank more easily, hence closing the gap as well. A skulk with DC only has extra damage as his 'extra ability to close the gap'. Extra damage would help a skulk rushing a marine, but Cel would probably be better.

But who says thats how a DC skulk should play? What about ambushing? A cara skulk who lets the marine close the gap suddenly becomes FAR more powerful. Ambushing Cara skulks, even if they're spotted, are in a great kill position.

Players just need to realize that yes, they actually do have to play differently with a different chamber if they want to maximize it. Early 3.2, people actually went DC first semi-often, and rocked the pants off the marines when it was used well.

Cata: Yes, i think DCs heal fine in their current state. Any more and they'd become perhaps too powerfull.

Thats part of why I suddenly really liked the idea of the umbra effect. Its not a direct effect, like faster healing: umbra is a proximity effect, lasts only 3 seconds (with a cooldown of 10 seconds), and does not go through walls.

It also likely would not affect other critical parts of the game, such as hive attacks. Siegeing would not be affected at all, and rushes would only be affected for 3 out of every 10 seconds, assuming the umbra even reaches. DCs are already very powerful for healing the hive, hence why the Umbra addition seems nicely balanced for this.

NEX9 · November 2007

been suggested about 30 times before but you really wrote it up well, grats.

I tottaly agree with this idea, i didnt like the last change to single target healing since the last patch, since most damage coursed is AOE, all you need to do is shoot the DC then shoot said other thing. but i can see were the AOe healing would piss off marines, but still over can be came, I mean really should marine's beable to take out a WOL with DC's on his own? well he can now, OLD DC's forced a teams of marines to build TF's and seige WOLS a practice that seen my res well spent when they had to spend near on equal amounts of res to kill it. Back then I still would of VOTED for umbra DCS and even suggested a thread on it my self before also discovering there were about five more before me, the search function was really ###### back then, but hey its still ###### now but much better, you should use it or most likely already are.

But yes back then at the end of the day 8 DC's around a hive and a pair MC adrenaline gorges, ment a long last stand, a hold off long enougg for kharaa to make a come back, but honoustly if there is that much res invested, you should be spending a few more res to make a few more seiges, and to be honoust this last stand off was equal to the marine becon in a way, allowing aliens to keep spawning and possable to escape and hit some were else or acctuly take out the marines. you also could survive some of the spawn camping, when you spawn with in rage of * dc's and a hive and are possable getting heal sprayed, you would some times surive that shot gun blast to the head, even more so if you could egg and get cara. you could survive mines as well.
but well in all honoustly DC is a peice of ###### now, at least in pugs for most life forms any way.

Guys your also havent listed my two favorite things for DC as hive one, ALL kharaa going redemption, and ambushing, messes with rine RFK, and building a single DC near each res node, it increases the life span of the res node a HEAP, long enough to get to it and save it even vs three + rines. also how offtan are you near the hive or the gorge, ok but how offtan is a res node closer than the hive or the gorge, it all helps.

naggy · November 2007

Just give DC's the ability to raise max HP of the healed unit by 10-20% and you have a new, improved, fixed DC.

Or even make them increase max AP, not HP.

NEX9 · November 2007

interesting spin naggy, i like it, kiss, keep it simple stupid.

DCs gain Umbra.

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