Marines Overpowered?

SweatySack · November 2002

<div class="IPBDescription">Let my know what you think</div> In my mind and from what i hear from other players is that the marines are way too powerfull in this game. Once the marines have heavy machine guns and heavy armor they are nearly unstopable unless the aliens have all three hives and are attacking with onos. Even then it still makes the game very hard to win. I think that the marines machine guns and armor should either cost slightly more or be less powerfull. And if nothing else the seige turrents should have no splash damage. Let me know what you all think but I,ve heard countless number of players complain about this. Also too the programmers I would like to know if you have any changes in store for this matter.
<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='siege.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='mad.gif'>

MbOoGiE · November 2002

i'd say bast is so tilted towards marines (uh... i'm sorry bast maker... but give me command on bast with semi-competent marines vs. aliens of the same skill level, and i will win 9 times out of 10 guaranteed.) there's so many tricks you can pull, with stuff being in range certain choke points being guarded easily... hell even feedwater control is ez to fk up cuz of it's small size, while the enormous size of refinery makes it a pain in the **obscenity** to guard for lerks cuz of the marines supriority in range , etc. that and a few well placed structures and you could cover resource nodes ez... hell even the skulk rush is easy to defend on that base.

eclipse is favored for aliens as well, but only by a little bit... and only for a certain time of the game... then it balances out.

flippo · November 2002

Generally, aliens are better I think. A good commander is the only way marines will win. Unless of course the alien team sucks.

othell · November 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SweatySack @ Nov 11 2002, 01:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>In my mind and from what i hear from other players is that the marines are way too powerfull in this game. Once the marines have heavy machine guns and heavy armor they are nearly unstopable unless the aliens have all three hives and are attacking with onos. Even then it still makes the game very hard to win. I think that the marines machine guns and armor should either cost slightly more or be less powerfull. And if nothing else the seige turrents should have no splash damage. Let me know what you all think but I,ve heard countless number of players complain about this. Also too the programmers I would like to know if you have any changes in store for this matter.
<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='siege.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='mad.gif'></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
the last patch pretty much fixed any real balance issues. any probs you are having now can probably be blamed on the ineptitude of those you are playing with.

stop ragging on the marines ppl. aliens are very powerful, but you have to know how to use em. ignorance does not give you reason to blame the marines. blame yourself first.

Reign · November 2002

<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='mad.gif'>

These balance topics have been brought up over and over again. NS is still fairly balanced. Certain maps may not be but otherwise there is always a way around things unless you sink too far back in which case you are dead. But marines with HMGs and HAs are actually no big deal. Make sure that whatever they have to pass through a group of 4-5 offensive towers that has 4-6 defensive towers and an active gorge. Also, two hives means fades and a fade's acid rocket combined with webs (don't forget blink either) can be quite deadly to even the most elite marine.

Saturn · November 2002

I would like to see a map well suited for both aliens AND marines, and see how they fare up.

Take 7 on 7 or so, and play 2 games with the teams switching sides after the first game.

THEN, let's see how the balance is. Until then, it's rather moot and dependant on the map.

-Saturn <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'>

Iden · November 2002

Funny, I just *ate* the marines alive three times in a row on Bast, once with a rush, once with a long drawn out starvation war and once with them simply being too occupied by clearing me an another skulk out of atmospheric.

Chef · November 2002

Suggestion: New Forum Folder for all "Balance Issue Threads"

MooMoo_the_SnowCow · November 2002

The odd thing is on the server I play on the marines have only won around 5 times.

deimos_telarin · November 2002

The server I've played on "Internode NS #1".

I've only seen Marines win 2 times while i've been there.

MbOoGiE · November 2002

"Funny, I just *ate* the marines alive three times in a row on Bast, once with a rush, once with a long drawn out starvation war and once with them simply being too occupied by clearing me an another skulk out of atmospheric. "

like i said... play against someone who knows how to play and it won't even matter how good your team is in bast. you will lose, trust me.

the fact that they died to a skulk rush, in one of the worst skulk rush marine bases on all maps shows you how bad they are.

i'd show you, step by step, on how to win on bast, no matter where they spawn and which hive is occupied, but then i don't like giving out hard earned trade secrets.

let's just say, within the first 10 minutes of the game, i have denied the aliens 2 resource nodes, and have secured 3 others with some marine defense. within 15-20 minutes i have secured one hive and the main chokepoint leading to it, as well as minimized defenses on one of the hives for easy takeover, and i have done this with LMGs, and not a single arms lab upgrade or a single HA up until taking the hive over part. i'll let you in on a little hint, the reason i can do this is BECAUSE i didn't drop any HAs, HMGs, or invested in arms lab. you need to remember, hive 1 aliens are weak. LMGs match up against skulks very evenly. if you can delay the building of the second hive (note, resource node control) using just your basic weaponry and armor, by the time they even get 2nd hive abilities, you would be pouring in so many resources because of not going arms lab early, that you will have np dropping has and hmgs for everyone soon enough. i mean christ look at the map, two hives are easily in range of your base, with the refinery being the pain in the a$s one all the way in the end... and due to the big open space it has... it gives marines the advantage of staying away from melee attacks... sure it gives lerks an advantage with good sniping positions and umbra... but the time your doing refinery all they'll be left with are skulks since two hives are practically secured... if they do fight over one, phase portals can easily transport your HA marines quickly to defend...

i'm not trying to brag, nor am i full of myself, but i've played through it, checked out the map, tested the ranges... and i'm saying yes, it definitely favors marines. not by a little but by a lot, if strategies are used correctly.

trust me on this... unless the aliens can dodge bullets like the matrix, there is no way they're going to win in bast against a team who knows what they're doing, and who knows how to aim/build/guard/weld/ha tank/and rush dropped weapons. this is a moot point anyway, on pub servers, because most people are retarded, lammas, noobs, lamers, griefers... and just some who can't aim or follow orders. it can be done on a pub server if your lucky enough to get 6 marines who'll follow orders and who can aim... but even now that's few and far in between. the last few servers i've been in resulted in rambo nonsense, lamma wielding doors shut in hera (the one with holoroom/reception), as well as just plain nubis who, even though they're trying, is just a waste of time to play in at the moment.

the more popular NS becomes, the worse it'll get. this is a strategy game which should require a little bit of tactics... but due to the fps element, it'll draw in too large a crowd of the swelling ignorant masses of angsty 13 year old kids to ruin any chance of having a good percentage of the servers playable. in about 2 weeks, i can see myself not playing on public servers anymore... just due to this annoying trend.

Ahnteis · November 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>within 15-20 minutes i have secured one hive</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

A good alien team can have their 2nd hive by 10 minutes and then you're facing fades, lerks and skulks.

I know that I personally can take out pretty much any 1 turret factory alone as a fade so you'd better have at least 2 powering your turrets or marines at all your chokepoints.

MbOoGiE · November 2002

it's an estimated time... since there are no timers, i haven't had a chance to track the time... but i can definitely say that i would have secured one hive before the 2nd one is even up.

i'm not even sure it's even possible to get 2nd hive up in 10 minutes... and yes, i'm saying your full of shiet.

what's the timer on the actual build time of a hive? i think it's close to two minutes... or at least it feels like 2-3 minutes. on a 7v7 or 8v8 match (the norm) that means resources are being shared for the first 5 minutes for everyones to fill up and the gorgs to start getting most of the resources, and that's if no one else is dying and you have captured most resource points on the way to 2nd hive (which on most maps, is easily done, but on bast, with a certain manipulation of factory turret placement and siege turrets, is going to be delayed.

dude i know bast by heart now... like i said, if i told you how i can do it, i wouldn't hear an argument from you... but then again it took me more than an hour and a half experimenting on that map to figure out the best strategy, and more hours actually playing it out in actual gameplay to tweak it. no i'm not done yet refining my strategy to perfection... since aliens will always have varying levels of skill and luck... but like i said, 9 times out of 10 give me a good marine team to work with and bast is marine country. this is of course, done if the aliens do not know step by step what my strategy is, hence why i'm not willing to give it out, cuz like most strategy games, it's not really in your execution that counts, but knowing what your opponent might do that gives you the advantage.

Lt_Kelly · November 2002

Marines ARE overpowered.
Man Marines get overpowered all the time.
When those aliens start coming in all of a sudden with
elephants(whatever they are) and those big 2 legged black
things we can't stop them! They keep poping here and there
shooting those rocks where acid splashes all over!

Lt_Kelly · November 2002

Aliens don't have to have commander nor do they have to have soldiers build stuff.
Personally i think the game is WAY off balance. Aliens are too heavy for marines.

Stormeh · November 2002

I cant see why you say that the marines are overpowered? In that case you must have never faced a good alien team, because as i see it a good alien team is very hard to beat, especialy when they get fades. So i would say that the balance of the game is good (very good for being the first release).

matso · November 2002

Without cheating (ie, switching back/forth to the readyroom each time a skulk dies) and assuming even 8v8 teams, 2 Gorges and a maximum expansion rate:

1 minute to get 13 pts for Gorge (so all should rush at start, going Gorge only after the first wave).

Assume 2 go Gorge at that moment, it will take about 4 minutes before the two first resource towers are built, at the five minute point. Two more resource towers at the 6.5 minutes. At this point, the gorges are earning at 25 pts per minute.

Hyper resource point is reached when the skulks hit 33 resources. Their resource status are
@1 min, inc 2.5: 13 pts
@5 min, inc 1.67: 19 pts
@6.5 min, inc 2.5 : 26 pts

From the 6.5 min point, the income per skulk is 5.5 per minute, so to earn the remaining 7 pts to 33 takes about 1.5 min.

At the 8 minute point, you get hyper income at 50 pts per minute and gorge. With the 1.5 minute of 25 pts added, the second and third hive can be built at about the 9 minute mark.

Numbers are a bit rounded off - in fact you earn at about 5-10% slower rate, so you should probably add another minute to compensate.

Of course, this assumes the pre-patch resource model. I'm not quite sure the resource model is the same anymore, but there was nothing in the patch notes about changing it.

But yes, efficient Kharaas can start to build the second hive before 10 minutes have passed.

However, it does mean that the skulks need to be able to contain the marines until that time. Nothing worse than having one of your first resource towers being knocked out early.

So you need good skulks and - very importantly - EVEN teams. 7v5 early in the game is basically won from the start - either the marines get overrun by the rush, or the marines rush out without there being enough skulks around to contain them.

Even games are basically decided by the skills of the marines vs the skills of the skulks in the first 10 minutes. If the skulks manage to keep all the marines tied down defending their home base and first expansion, picking off any marines going further off from home, then the game looks pretty grim for the marines. Conversly, if the marines can get two expansions going early, they will become much, much stronger.

Bast is pretty unique in that it has two resource points very close to the main base, as well as an easily defensible base. So yes, the marines definitly have it easier than on other maps.

MbOoGiE · November 2002

"But yes, efficient Kharaas can start to build the second hive before 10 minutes have passed"

yes, start building... it takes like 2 minutes+ (**obscenity** seems longer too... i wouldn't be surprised if it was closer to 3-4 minutes) for a hive to even build up... and this is considering the best possibile scenario (lol good luck on that happening). fact is, skulks die, sure their resources is shared and filters out to the rest of the group while their waiting to respawn... but say 10-20 seconds per skulk dead. this pushes back the resource shower time that gorges get near 10-12 minute mark (8 is WAY stretching it imo.. but again, i never took a stop watch out...) with skulks having 2-4 deaths each, considering they rush and defend... we're looking at 14-15 minutes i would guess. and this is all assuming what? that you have 5-6 resource nodes up... without using any to build defenses? so your going to leave main aft junction undefended... which is about 30 seconds from marine base? again... bs.

i'm not saying marines are overpowered, or aliens are overpowered... i think they're pretty equal on most maps, all things being considered... marines dont always have time to follow exactly what commander says right when he says it, aliens don't always push back the marines like they usually do, sometimes skulk rushing becomes too effective... etc.

but the way the map is laid out in bast, the easily defendable base, the double resource node in atmospheric pressure close to base... and the range of siege turrets atm... with a typical marine team... yes, they have a *slight* advantage. with a marine team basically exploiting the layout of the map... the maps give marines an overwhelming chance at victory... i'd say 85-90%

look at a bast map... and look at what i've said... think for a second...

ok. now what i am saying is that by the time the aliens get 2nd hive up (most of the time they probably wouldn't even get it up)... they are working with 3 resource nodes, a sparsely, or basically undefended hive that can be taken over in a minute (Hmm why is he saying that...) and the marines basically have resources to burn to easily turtle the aliens in refinery... or push them to try to take over engine again (meanwhile, the marines are pushing forward to refinery... an undefended alien hive vs. a bunch of tech'd marines?

hell, i could explain it all with one map... i already drew the waypoints and where most of the vital things should be... but the game is more fun when people aren't using cookie cutter sure-fire techniques to win... agreed?

RazorClaw · November 2002

Donno if there is any point doing it but... you can build up siege turrets in the vents close to the engine room hive on bast, easily within range of the hive. Might be a bit hard for the aliens to locate the siege turrets in there.

Unarmed · November 2002

Marines are not overpowered
HA ( heavy armor) vs ONOS (o no! -_-) equilibrated
SIEGE TURRETS are overpowered there are no limit to build... like aliens have a limit to build turrets in a room...
Maybe imput a siege limit build will be better...

<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='siege.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='pudgy.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='pudgy.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='pudgy.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='pudgy.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='pudgy.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='pudgy.gif'> ALL ARE DEAD -_- <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

sry my bad english <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'>

Benolan · November 2002

I think a lot of it comes down to a good commander.. if the commander has a plan in mind and can manage the team well, the marines have a real good shot.. it's all about the early game for marines.. If they can secure hives they're kickin butt and are in control... If they are contained and the aliens get all three, they may as well kiss their but goodbye. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

Iden · November 2002

Your 'sekrit' sounds like you're taking advantage of the relative 'cramped' style of bast with siege turrets. It's no small secret.

As an alien I'd like to retort: Sieges are tasty and any accompaning turrets you may place only add to the taste, the wandering marines in the area are merely appetizers. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

Yes, I've seen your 'tactic' and it's not the stop all end all. It's a pain in the arse, but it's not god's willing way to stop the aliens on that map. There's enough vents in bast to even out the advantage so long as the aliens you're playing against have some skill.

To me it sounds like the aliens you were playing against have a severe dislike of the umbra cloud, which mixed in with the previous suggested turret factories, sieges, and sentries make everything all the easier to swallow. If they do manage to get that second hive up then you've gotta watch out for that dreaded skulk/lerk/fade combo that'll eat squads AND turret factories up in the ugliest fashions, no matter where you place those sentries.

God willing the fade doesn't blink and get stuck a simple umbra next to the turret factory (easy considering the lerk can fly above the sentires and not get shot) and the dinner bell sound of "TF IS DOWN!" has this amazing effect of causing all buildings to grow a skulk. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

However even in clan games I hear about aliens winning on bast, it's not unheard of and it's not rare.

I'm going to look foward to meeting you online though, it'll be good to play against a commander who knows how to organize and play and doesn't give in to calls of "HAHMG you putz!" <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

SweatySack · November 2002

What I was trying to say is that marines can seem to get heavy armor and hmg a lot faster than an alien can morph into a ono. Yes it is possible for aliens to get second hive up in 10 mins but thats with no offense or defense towers to defend the hive. If you dont have those the second hive is toast in 5 min. Maybe you are all right and that i just had bad teammates the last couble of games. Just think for aliens to get onos it takes a good 25 to 35 min for the hives to be built and to save up enough reasources to morph and upgrade. The marines however as long as they have 2 resource towers can have half their soldiers equiped with HA and hmgs or nade launchers within 15 min of the game and if you put a fade and marine with HA and HMG the fade is done for unless there is a defense tower to fall back too. even if you have 5 offense towers and 4 defense towers 2 marines with nades can whipe them out with 2 clips each while it takes 2 fades about 20 shots to take out a few turrents. Once again it just may be me

MbOoGiE · November 2002

iden drop by #natural selection in gamesnet... i'll tell u exactly how to win on bast with ease (requires good players tho =/ which... i think, is the hardest part lol)

OneManArmy · November 2002

From my personal experience All it takes is a good team. Neither side has a real clear advantage, all it takes is for a team to work together. From playing I have seen that which ever team has better coordination will win....

Lt_Kelly · November 2002

The first time i played commander the aliens had heck of a time breaking my forces.
I had only a couple turrets and my marines where being good about things and
i had supplied them whatever they needed when i could. So i think when it comes right
down to it you need a commander who has experience in a game like StarCraft or NS itself
and who can think and not favor ppl. Otherwise chances are you might get a good resualt or put
up a one heck of a fight. One thing is Marines might be to defensive and aliens are very offensive and
will usually rush before first spawn point is built making it hard for marines to get started.

Ben128 · November 2002

With the way that the aliens can move, of course, any smaller level favors the aliens just a little. Its the rushing factor. on Eclipse my quickest victort so far is 43 seconds..with a 6vs 6, it was funny to say the least, but in truth they were not completely prepared. As long as the marines are ready a rush will always fail, but if they are not...wow, it is sooo over.

Marines Overpowered?

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