puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
edited December 2007
Yeah, I think all discussion here is pointless now. Depot is just going to repeat that he is right and we are narrow-minded. Maybe if I watch more fox news I can start to think outside of the box[1]. The major speculation here is that the increase in suicide is due to a lack of corporal punishment ( i.e. candy assed soldiers ). The rest seems to me to just be honest concern and questioning. Nobody has come out and made any definitive speculation on the matter apart from you Depot.
[1] Outside the box might actually contain reality.
I am not saying I am right, I merely brought a different perspective to the discussion. My opinions are based on my life experiences and that's all I have to offer. As far as facts, no one has presented any in this thread that conclude beyond a shadow of a doubt that these suicides should be counted as wartime casualties. If you feel I've derailed the thread by trying to link today's suicide rate to the way our youth are raised I just don't know what to tell ya.
No, these suicides should not be considered wartime casualties. No facts, just my opinion.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
edited December 2007
<!--quoteo(post=1663011:date=Dec 5 2007, 05:39 PM:name=Depot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Depot @ Dec 5 2007, 05:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1663011"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Truth has a way of doing that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo(post=1663101:date=Dec 6 2007, 04:42 PM:name=Depot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Depot @ Dec 6 2007, 04:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1663101"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I am not saying I am right, I merely brought a different perspective to the discussion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I consider 'truth' and 'right' in this context synonymous. <!--quoteo(post=1663101:date=Dec 6 2007, 04:42 PM:name=Depot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Depot @ Dec 6 2007, 04:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1663101"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My opinions are based on my life experiences and that's all I have to offer. As far as facts, no one has presented any in this thread that conclude beyond a shadow of a doubt that these suicides should be counted as wartime casualties.
No, these suicides should not be considered wartime casualties. No facts, just my opinion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Here's the thing. War veterans are much more likely to have PTSD as a result of the war[cited from <u>On Killing</u> and the link I provided which in turn used the hard facts of case studies]. War veterans with PTSD are more likely to commit suicide[same secondary sources, different case studies]. The transitive property applies here because war veterans with PTSD are a subset of war veterans and war veterans, by definition, have been in a war. In this way you can say being in a war means you have a greater chance of committing suicide. This is different from a correlation like "people who were not beaten/spanked as children are more likely to break down in war time conditions as adults" because "adults who break down in wartime conditions" is not a subset "people who were not beaten/spanked as children". It certainly can be your opinion, but unless you provide some type of proof, you're argument is not more "right" or "truthful" than other arguments. I could say "People who believe in corporeal punishment didn't eat their vegetables enough as children" but it would be about as valid as your statement and it would seem a little ridiculous if I based my opinions on that idea. <!--quoteo(post=1663101:date=Dec 6 2007, 04:42 PM:name=Depot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Depot @ Dec 6 2007, 04:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1663101"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you feel I've derailed the thread by trying to link today's suicide rate to the way our youth are raised I just don't know what to tell ya.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> We're not talking about just suicide rate though, we're talking about veteran suicide rate. Even if you had shown that the suicide rate is higher today than it was as long as veteran suicide rate is higher than civilian suicide rate it would still be valid to call the war a cause of veteran suicide. In my opinion if you were a soldier, and the war you were in has a moderate part in your death, then you should be a causality of war. You are entitled to a different opinion, but the reasoning you provided for that opinion doesn't quite work.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Eighty-nine suicides were confirmed in 2007, and if 32 suspected suicides are also confirmed, the total will rise above the 2006 figure of 102.
The 2006 suicide rate was the highest since US army records began in 1980.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comments
[1] Outside the box might actually contain reality.
No, these suicides should not be considered wartime casualties. No facts, just my opinion.
<!--quoteo(post=1663101:date=Dec 6 2007, 04:42 PM:name=Depot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Depot @ Dec 6 2007, 04:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1663101"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I am not saying I am right, I merely brought a different perspective to the discussion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I consider 'truth' and 'right' in this context synonymous.
<!--quoteo(post=1663101:date=Dec 6 2007, 04:42 PM:name=Depot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Depot @ Dec 6 2007, 04:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1663101"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My opinions are based on my life experiences and that's all I have to offer. As far as facts, no one has presented any in this thread that conclude beyond a shadow of a doubt that these suicides should be counted as wartime casualties.
No, these suicides should not be considered wartime casualties. No facts, just my opinion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here's the thing. War veterans are much more likely to have PTSD as a result of the war[cited from <u>On Killing</u> and the link I provided which in turn used the hard facts of case studies]. War veterans with PTSD are more likely to commit suicide[same secondary sources, different case studies]. The transitive property applies here because war veterans with PTSD are a subset of war veterans and war veterans, by definition, have been in a war. In this way you can say being in a war means you have a greater chance of committing suicide. This is different from a correlation like "people who were not beaten/spanked as children are more likely to break down in war time conditions as adults" because "adults who break down in wartime conditions" is not a subset "people who were not beaten/spanked as children". It certainly can be your opinion, but unless you provide some type of proof, you're argument is not more "right" or "truthful" than other arguments. I could say "People who believe in corporeal punishment didn't eat their vegetables enough as children" but it would be about as valid as your statement and it would seem a little ridiculous if I based my opinions on that idea.
<!--quoteo(post=1663101:date=Dec 6 2007, 04:42 PM:name=Depot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Depot @ Dec 6 2007, 04:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1663101"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you feel I've derailed the thread by trying to link today's suicide rate to the way our youth are raised I just don't know what to tell ya.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We're not talking about just suicide rate though, we're talking about veteran suicide rate. Even if you had shown that the suicide rate is higher today than it was as long as veteran suicide rate is higher than civilian suicide rate it would still be valid to call the war a cause of veteran suicide. In my opinion if you were a soldier, and the war you were in has a moderate part in your death, then you should be a causality of war. You are entitled to a different opinion, but the reasoning you provided for that opinion doesn't quite work.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Eighty-nine suicides were confirmed in 2007, and if 32 suspected suicides are also confirmed, the total will rise above the 2006 figure of 102.
The 2006 suicide rate was the highest since US army records began in 1980.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->