'Fixing' Commander Mode
Quaunaut
The longest seven days in history... Join Date: 2003-03-21 Member: 14759Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
The longest seven days in history... Join Date: 2003-03-21 Member: 14759Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
<div class="IPBDescription">Taken from the Context of NS1</div>Preface: I understand that Commander Mode will most likely be different from how it was in NS1, and hopefully made easier. Here are my ideas to not only make it easy to learn, but easier to play.
First off, lets put down some ground rules: NS1 was based around generally a 6v6 team format, with a maximum of 8v8 for consistent balance. I'll assume this structure has remained unchanged.
1: Soldier Selection
Bounding boxes are good: We know this. But furthermore, soldier selection shouldn't have to be exact. Allow plenty of room for error, that gets smaller as they get closer to other players. Don't get ridiculous, but if someone is 20 pixels off on a single click and its the only marine around, we can assume they were wanting to select that Marine.
As to selection boxes, this is always a hard problem to fix, but there is a potential solution: Why not have an alternative to the box(or shift clicking to add selections) that eases selection: Selection Painting. Stole this idea from what is apparently supposed to be in some 360 RTS, but the idea would help with the unpredictable nature of Marines- if the selection goes over a marine when they are there at all, they're selected. It wouldn't be used for exact things, but its faster than a binding box.
2: Weapons & Upgrade Systems
The old system of "Drop Weapon" was nice, but you couldn't really ensure a certain player was getting it. Instead of that, lets make a few distinctions: Allow it so you can select a marine, and in the menu all the available weapons show up, and clicking one "buys" it for that marine. Upon going to the armory, the marine can select to take it.
Furthermore, the armory should be able to have "stockpiles" of weapons. Why not 'buy' 5 shotties for your team, and they're all in the armory- upon going to it, you just use it, hit 1, and tahdah, you get the shotty thats in there. This also ensures that you don't get people always asking for a shotgun, forcing the comm to take his mind off of what he's doing.
3. Then, Default Loadouts. Certain Marines are obviously your go-to guys. Why not have a selection to have a Marine get a default loadout that he gets whenever he hits the armory- Shotty, JP, etc. This way, your anti-resource guy always has his shotgun & JP so he can always be goin' round gettin' dem rezzezorzez!
3: Soldier Status Window
This would be a window, rather small, on one side of the screen. In this window would be the names of all the soldiers, with health bars behind the names, and on the right, a Checkbox for if you want to enable their default loadout or not(for those times when its time for everyone to go hive-hunting). Furthermore, this area would be easily seperated by squads, automatically re-arranging itself to Squad Numbers(SQUAD FIVE!). Furthermore, when your mouse is over this window, Units in the 3d space get their names overhead, so you could use this as a selection tool as well. Any orders that work in the 3d space would work here too- ordering someone to weld someone, for example. You could even have buttons to Med/Ammo/Catpack someone from here.
4: Custom Minimap Icons & Larger Minimap
I could see the minimap taking up much more space than before- 1/9th the screen even- and having it be useful. Furthermore, perhaps it is time we take in Supreme Commander's zoom idea: Why not allow zooming out to issue orders from the main field from anywhere? And mousing over a specific spot and using the zoom in would zoom to that position? This could potentially even do away with the minimap altogether.
Also, Minimap/Realmap icons are a must. And not blurry, badly-colored icons. We need color-distinctive, specifically shaped icons: Silhouettes of each thing. Soldiers should still be dots(perhaps Dots with numbers/colors to represent squads?), but have Phase Gates be an overhead silhouette, Comm Chairs be a side-silhouette, Armories being overhead, etc etc. For places where there are a lot of things, simply put a Miscellaneous icon- perhaps an Exclamation Point(!), that upon click would reveal whatever else was there(and allow you to select it).
5: Resource Tree
I don't mean the actual tree, as that is rather straightforward. But why not have a small UI Tree that shows the levels for Weapons/Armor upgrades, Weapons Research, and Tech Research? It could be as simple as 1/2/3 for the weapons/armor, and then Icons with grayed out/lit up HMG or GL, or Jet or Heavy. This could allow remote upgrading easily, and never let it get forgotten to easily.
6: The entire Commander UI. It would need to be redone, but frankly, the entire ingame UI of NS needs to be redone(which I plan on doing Mockups, one day in the far flung future). A starcraft-inspired bar at the bottom would mostly need to be gotten rid of(or at least made much smaller), and it would need an area dedicated to hints/soldier information.
Outside of these things, most of the problems would be relegated to Comms strategizing, and preparing, where they should go. Its better for the comm to have nothing to do but order people around than for him to be too overwhelmed to lead- at least one allows *anyone* to lead.
Also, I would reccomend a constant-tutorial system for the comm. Tooltips should have quick, concise, and most importantly <b>complete</b> information, and be consistent. The "Build Armory" button should have a nearly identical tooltip to the "Armory" icon, except it would include Resource Cost.
First off, lets put down some ground rules: NS1 was based around generally a 6v6 team format, with a maximum of 8v8 for consistent balance. I'll assume this structure has remained unchanged.
1: Soldier Selection
Bounding boxes are good: We know this. But furthermore, soldier selection shouldn't have to be exact. Allow plenty of room for error, that gets smaller as they get closer to other players. Don't get ridiculous, but if someone is 20 pixels off on a single click and its the only marine around, we can assume they were wanting to select that Marine.
As to selection boxes, this is always a hard problem to fix, but there is a potential solution: Why not have an alternative to the box(or shift clicking to add selections) that eases selection: Selection Painting. Stole this idea from what is apparently supposed to be in some 360 RTS, but the idea would help with the unpredictable nature of Marines- if the selection goes over a marine when they are there at all, they're selected. It wouldn't be used for exact things, but its faster than a binding box.
2: Weapons & Upgrade Systems
The old system of "Drop Weapon" was nice, but you couldn't really ensure a certain player was getting it. Instead of that, lets make a few distinctions: Allow it so you can select a marine, and in the menu all the available weapons show up, and clicking one "buys" it for that marine. Upon going to the armory, the marine can select to take it.
Furthermore, the armory should be able to have "stockpiles" of weapons. Why not 'buy' 5 shotties for your team, and they're all in the armory- upon going to it, you just use it, hit 1, and tahdah, you get the shotty thats in there. This also ensures that you don't get people always asking for a shotgun, forcing the comm to take his mind off of what he's doing.
3. Then, Default Loadouts. Certain Marines are obviously your go-to guys. Why not have a selection to have a Marine get a default loadout that he gets whenever he hits the armory- Shotty, JP, etc. This way, your anti-resource guy always has his shotgun & JP so he can always be goin' round gettin' dem rezzezorzez!
3: Soldier Status Window
This would be a window, rather small, on one side of the screen. In this window would be the names of all the soldiers, with health bars behind the names, and on the right, a Checkbox for if you want to enable their default loadout or not(for those times when its time for everyone to go hive-hunting). Furthermore, this area would be easily seperated by squads, automatically re-arranging itself to Squad Numbers(SQUAD FIVE!). Furthermore, when your mouse is over this window, Units in the 3d space get their names overhead, so you could use this as a selection tool as well. Any orders that work in the 3d space would work here too- ordering someone to weld someone, for example. You could even have buttons to Med/Ammo/Catpack someone from here.
4: Custom Minimap Icons & Larger Minimap
I could see the minimap taking up much more space than before- 1/9th the screen even- and having it be useful. Furthermore, perhaps it is time we take in Supreme Commander's zoom idea: Why not allow zooming out to issue orders from the main field from anywhere? And mousing over a specific spot and using the zoom in would zoom to that position? This could potentially even do away with the minimap altogether.
Also, Minimap/Realmap icons are a must. And not blurry, badly-colored icons. We need color-distinctive, specifically shaped icons: Silhouettes of each thing. Soldiers should still be dots(perhaps Dots with numbers/colors to represent squads?), but have Phase Gates be an overhead silhouette, Comm Chairs be a side-silhouette, Armories being overhead, etc etc. For places where there are a lot of things, simply put a Miscellaneous icon- perhaps an Exclamation Point(!), that upon click would reveal whatever else was there(and allow you to select it).
5: Resource Tree
I don't mean the actual tree, as that is rather straightforward. But why not have a small UI Tree that shows the levels for Weapons/Armor upgrades, Weapons Research, and Tech Research? It could be as simple as 1/2/3 for the weapons/armor, and then Icons with grayed out/lit up HMG or GL, or Jet or Heavy. This could allow remote upgrading easily, and never let it get forgotten to easily.
6: The entire Commander UI. It would need to be redone, but frankly, the entire ingame UI of NS needs to be redone(which I plan on doing Mockups, one day in the far flung future). A starcraft-inspired bar at the bottom would mostly need to be gotten rid of(or at least made much smaller), and it would need an area dedicated to hints/soldier information.
Outside of these things, most of the problems would be relegated to Comms strategizing, and preparing, where they should go. Its better for the comm to have nothing to do but order people around than for him to be too overwhelmed to lead- at least one allows *anyone* to lead.
Also, I would reccomend a constant-tutorial system for the comm. Tooltips should have quick, concise, and most importantly <b>complete</b> information, and be consistent. The "Build Armory" button should have a nearly identical tooltip to the "Armory" icon, except it would include Resource Cost.
Comments
<!--quoteo(post=1661645:date=Nov 24 2007, 05:52 AM:name=Quaunaut)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Quaunaut @ Nov 24 2007, 05:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1661645"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Preface: I understand that Commander Mode will most likely be different from how it was in NS1, and hopefully made easier. Here are my ideas to not only make it easy to learn, but easier to play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Since when do games have to be made easier to play? For whom? For the mentally disabled?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1: Soldier Selection
Bounding boxes are good: We know this. But furthermore, soldier selection shouldn't have to be exact. Allow plenty of room for error, that gets smaller as they get closer to other players. Don't get ridiculous, but if someone is 20 pixels off on a single click and its the only marine around, we can assume they were wanting to select that Marine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do people really have problems selecting units? Is this something that takes a lot of time to get right? I don't think this makes the game easier to learn, so its not necessary.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As to selection boxes, this is always a hard problem to fix, but there is a potential solution: Why not have an alternative to the box(or shift clicking to add selections) that eases selection: Selection Painting. Stole this idea from what is apparently supposed to be in some 360 RTS, but the idea would help with the unpredictable nature of Marines- if the selection goes over a marine when they are there at all, they're selected. It wouldn't be used for exact things, but its faster than a binding box.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh so now every time I want to select the 2nd unit in a squad I'll have to manually unselect the first unit because the box I dragged ahead to ensnare him selected the first marine as well?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2: Weapons & Upgrade Systems
The old system of "Drop Weapon" was nice, but you couldn't really ensure a certain player was getting it. Instead of that, lets make a few distinctions: Allow it so you can select a marine, and in the menu all the available weapons show up, and clicking one "buys" it for that marine. Upon going to the armory, the marine can select to take it.
Furthermore, the armory should be able to have "stockpiles" of weapons. Why not 'buy' 5 shotties for your team, and they're all in the armory- upon going to it, you just use it, hit 1, and tahdah, you get the shotty thats in there. This also ensures that you don't get people always asking for a shotgun, forcing the comm to take his mind off of what he's doing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I sort of agree in that the weapons should be purchased from the armory by the commander and stored on the side panels. So whenever a marine would use the armory he could pick up a weapon by selecting it from the menu.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3. Then, Default Loadouts. Certain Marines are obviously your go-to guys. Why not have a selection to have a Marine get a default loadout that he gets whenever he hits the armory- Shotty, JP, etc. This way, your anti-resource guy always has his shotgun & JP so he can always be goin' round gettin' dem rezzezorzez!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So what you mean is that each person selects his preferred loadout in the options menu before the game? That could be interesting.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3: Soldier Status Window
This would be a window, rather small, on one side of the screen. In this window would be the names of all the soldiers, with health bars behind the names, and on the right, a Checkbox for if you want to enable their default loadout or not(for those times when its time for everyone to go hive-hunting). Furthermore, this area would be easily seperated by squads, automatically re-arranging itself to Squad Numbers(SQUAD FIVE!). Furthermore, when your mouse is over this window, Units in the 3d space get their names overhead, so you could use this as a selection tool as well. Any orders that work in the 3d space would work here too- ordering someone to weld someone, for example. You could even have buttons to Med/Ammo/Catpack someone from here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe if this window only pops up when you press TAB. - Selecting units through that would be really cool.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->4: Custom Minimap Icons & Larger Minimap
I could see the minimap taking up much more space than before- 1/9th the screen even- and having it be useful. Furthermore, perhaps it is time we take in Supreme Commander's zoom idea: Why not allow zooming out to issue orders from the main field from anywhere? And mousing over a specific spot and using the zoom in would zoom to that position? This could potentially even do away with the minimap altogether.
Also, Minimap/Realmap icons are a must. And not blurry, badly-colored icons. We need color-distinctive, specifically shaped icons: Silhouettes of each thing. Soldiers should still be dots(perhaps Dots with numbers/colors to represent squads?), but have Phase Gates be an overhead silhouette, Comm Chairs be a side-silhouette, Armories being overhead, etc etc. For places where there are a lot of things, simply put a Miscellaneous icon- perhaps an Exclamation Point(!), that upon click would reveal whatever else was there(and allow you to select it).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yea zoom was the only cool thing about SupCom, I liked it very much. Def needs to be implemented into NS.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Outside of these things, most of the problems would be relegated to Comms strategizing, and preparing, where they should go. Its better for the comm to have nothing to do but order people around than for him to be too overwhelmed to lead- at least one allows *anyone* to lead.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NO
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO
I don't want commanding to devolve into a social session of having to do nothing but telling people where to go.
NO
prolly could have gone here ^
i really don't agree that a comms role should be limited to giving waypoints, what a seperates a good comm from a bad one is the ability to juggle upgrades, resources, and waypoints all at the same time.
Since when do games have to be made easier to play? For whom? For the mentally disabled?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you don't get this, perhaps you're speaking to your own group. As someone from the old days of NS, both in the pub and clan scene, I can say that the #1 gamekiller was not getting a decent comm, and generally, no one wanted to try comm because everything rested on their shoulders. Making the threshold lower would open up how many people want to be comm.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Do people really have problems selecting units? Is this something that takes a lot of time to get right? I don't think this makes the game easier to learn, so its not necessary.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No it doesn't help them learn, but it helps them play easier, and with less frustration.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh so now every time I want to select the 2nd unit in a squad I'll have to manually unselect the first unit because the box I dragged ahead to ensnare him selected the first marine as well?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, re-read it. If the unit is under the selection area(could be just a big circle around the mouse) while you are clicking, they are selected(This would be used in conjunction with another key, not as the default way of selecting. Just an alternative).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So what you mean is that each person selects his preferred loadout in the options menu before the game? That could be interesting.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, this would be determined by a comm on the fly. It would need a simple interface(which considering the relatively little number of items in NS, shouldn't be hard)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe if this window only pops up when you press TAB. - Selecting units through that would be really cool.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats certainly a possibility for change.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NO
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO
I don't want commanding to devolve into a social session of having to do nothing but telling people where to go.
NO<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i really don't agree that a comms role should be limited to giving waypoints, what a seperates a good comm from a bad one is the ability to juggle upgrades, resources, and waypoints all at the same time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Whether you guys want to admit it or not, the threshold for commanding *needs* to be lowered. Skill and juggling these things would still be there, but there would be less of a focus on simply managing where you're looking, and more of a focus on what is actually going on. You'd still have to juggle upgrades and resources, just they would be made easier to handle, as they aren't things you should have to look all over to deal with. It wouldn't devolve into a social session, but that would be the bigger aspect of it, instead of mere camera management.
Speaking to my own group? Of players who have played this game since 1.x and have been in serious clans in CAL. Pub commanders make games bad, but you only know this if you are good at the game yourself. If you are good at the game, you can easily get a friend into the CC and get a good game now that steam friends is up.
Never heard of a quaunaut, you must be a euro, or a quomwak which is equally terrible.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No it doesn't help them learn, but it helps them play easier, and with less frustration.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Okay, I'll give you that one.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, re-read it. If the unit is under the selection area(could be just a big circle around the mouse) while you are clicking, they are selected(This would be used in conjunction with another key, not as the default way of selecting. Just an alternative).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Zooming would fix the problem of selecting fast moving units, this is redundant anyway.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, this would be determined by a comm on the fly. It would need a simple interface(which considering the relatively little number of items in NS, shouldn't be hard)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I guess thats cool too, as long as you keep it away from the new players. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Whether you guys want to admit it or not, the threshold for commanding *needs* to be lowered. Skill and juggling these things would still be there, but there would be less of a focus on simply managing where you're looking, and more of a focus on what is actually going on. You'd still have to juggle upgrades and resources, just they would be made easier to handle, as they aren't things you should have to look all over to deal with. It wouldn't devolve into a social session, but that would be the bigger aspect of it, instead of mere camera management.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Haha, the TF2 team came to the same conclusion. They decided that the skill of the commander in the game either played a huge role or the commander wasn't fun to play, there was no way to balance the two so they decided to remove the role altogether. You can't really dumb down the commandermode in NS any more than it already is without it getting boring in a week of play. (Commanding in NS is SO EASY when you compare it to StarCraft)
The learning curve needs to be less steep, but the micromanagement in a game should never be compromised. Sure you'd make this game easier for beginners to learn, but experienced players would get bored and leave if it isn't challenging enough for them.
Never heard of a quaunaut, you must be a euro, or a quomwak which is equally terrible.
Okay, I'll give you that one.
Zooming would fix the problem of selecting fast moving units, this is redundant anyway.
I guess thats cool too, as long as you keep it away from the new players. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Haha, the TF2 team came to the same conclusion. They decided that the skill of the commander in the game either played a huge role or the commander wasn't fun to play, there was no way to balance the two so they decided to remove the role altogether. You can't really dumb down the commandermode in NS any more than it already is without it getting boring in a week of play. (Commanding in NS is SO EASY when you compare it to StarCraft)
The learning curve needs to be less steep, but the micromanagement in a game should never be compromised. Sure you'd make this game easier for beginners to learn, but experienced players would get bored and leave if it isn't challenging enough for them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are pointing out the problem in your second sentence: Pub commanders make games bad. Why not make it so a pub commander could be pretty decent without too much skill beyond knowing how the game works? Simple.
Sounds simple, but its very hard to accomplish without giving up a lot of the really fun things a commander could do in a game.
Thing is, this is a good opportunity to simultaneously give up a lot of the things that make it harder for no reason but, and add more interesting things from there.
Which would either be boring or take a lot of skill... Square1
The real problem is that there is no NS tutorial so noobs don't know that they shouldn't COMM under any circumstance. So they jump in the chair and drop a TF and seven IPs.