Ugly Things
Radix
Join Date: 2005-01-10 Member: 34654Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2005-01-10 Member: 34654Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">Don't look here.</div>Wow ok if you absolutely <b>must</b>.
Basically I'm concerned about pubbing in this thread. Competitive play is vitally important but pubbing works with organized play inextricably - if you lose one, you lose the other shortly after.
A complex game like Natural Selection (and <b><i>hopefully</i></b> NS2) is bound to have a lot of players who don't know what they're doing at any given time. Isn't it proper to reward the players who can empirically demonstrate competence in a specific field with greater control of gameplay based on that field (whatever it is)?
What I'm getting at is that as it stands now (and as it was before res was partitioned on the alien side) competent players would think ahead to build nodes and chambers and a hive, then consider lifeforms <i>assuming the more action-packed jobs were covered</i>.
A lot of people <b>especially</b> those just getting into the game look at it as another CS, because if you only look at first glance, that's how it appears. When you get into the deeper aspects of gameplay you realize it's much more than that - "chess with guns" as it's been said.
My point is that new players will forever be looking for shotguns, fades, onos, and whatever other tools are added to NS2 to facilitate <i>winning</i>. This is good, because this is exactly what they <b>should</b> be trying to do (it's the way they know how to win). <b>Despite this, they inadvertently ruin the game for every good player on their team on a regular basis.</b>
So my proposed solution is that those who are good at the early game be given more control over the mid to late game:
<b>1. Consider restricting alien lifeform options based on # of kills garnered</b>
You only need 2-3 lifeforms out of a usual 8-16 players on any given pub. Consider allowing lifeform access to the players who have proven their competence as skulk. These are undoubtedly the most motivated players who will show their team the best possible chance of winning. With the numbers as they are, you only need a fourth to a fifth of players to be lifeforms. So to approach the problem, why not allow only the top third of the team to lifeform? <!--coloro:lime--><span style="color:lime"><!--/coloro-->This would ensure the best gameplay possible while encouraging a proactive early game and completely eliminating the intercommunity resentment that results from incompetent players doing their best with what they currently understand.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<b>2. If 1, consider reintroducing pooled alien res</b>
This is perhaps a better reason than the gameplay arguments above for incorporating this idea into NS2 in some form. Shared res is a fascinating concept that allows a lot of freedom and creativity on the part of a team. It would allow gorges to have a more interesting gameplay experience, etc. etc. all the other arguments that you've heard a thousand times that come along with reintroducing pooled alien res.
You could even allow the players with the highest ratios to "permit" teammates to lifeform. This would promote teamwork and encourage communication (if not a bit of begging, but certainly begging is better than singlehandedly throwing a game due to poor judgment?) while granting the existing players an opportunity to nurture the development of incumbent lifeforms.
What are your thoughts?
Basically I'm concerned about pubbing in this thread. Competitive play is vitally important but pubbing works with organized play inextricably - if you lose one, you lose the other shortly after.
A complex game like Natural Selection (and <b><i>hopefully</i></b> NS2) is bound to have a lot of players who don't know what they're doing at any given time. Isn't it proper to reward the players who can empirically demonstrate competence in a specific field with greater control of gameplay based on that field (whatever it is)?
What I'm getting at is that as it stands now (and as it was before res was partitioned on the alien side) competent players would think ahead to build nodes and chambers and a hive, then consider lifeforms <i>assuming the more action-packed jobs were covered</i>.
A lot of people <b>especially</b> those just getting into the game look at it as another CS, because if you only look at first glance, that's how it appears. When you get into the deeper aspects of gameplay you realize it's much more than that - "chess with guns" as it's been said.
My point is that new players will forever be looking for shotguns, fades, onos, and whatever other tools are added to NS2 to facilitate <i>winning</i>. This is good, because this is exactly what they <b>should</b> be trying to do (it's the way they know how to win). <b>Despite this, they inadvertently ruin the game for every good player on their team on a regular basis.</b>
So my proposed solution is that those who are good at the early game be given more control over the mid to late game:
<b>1. Consider restricting alien lifeform options based on # of kills garnered</b>
You only need 2-3 lifeforms out of a usual 8-16 players on any given pub. Consider allowing lifeform access to the players who have proven their competence as skulk. These are undoubtedly the most motivated players who will show their team the best possible chance of winning. With the numbers as they are, you only need a fourth to a fifth of players to be lifeforms. So to approach the problem, why not allow only the top third of the team to lifeform? <!--coloro:lime--><span style="color:lime"><!--/coloro-->This would ensure the best gameplay possible while encouraging a proactive early game and completely eliminating the intercommunity resentment that results from incompetent players doing their best with what they currently understand.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<b>2. If 1, consider reintroducing pooled alien res</b>
This is perhaps a better reason than the gameplay arguments above for incorporating this idea into NS2 in some form. Shared res is a fascinating concept that allows a lot of freedom and creativity on the part of a team. It would allow gorges to have a more interesting gameplay experience, etc. etc. all the other arguments that you've heard a thousand times that come along with reintroducing pooled alien res.
You could even allow the players with the highest ratios to "permit" teammates to lifeform. This would promote teamwork and encourage communication (if not a bit of begging, but certainly begging is better than singlehandedly throwing a game due to poor judgment?) while granting the existing players an opportunity to nurture the development of incumbent lifeforms.
What are your thoughts?
Comments
LOL@POOLED RES
Yea pool team res so 1 gorge can drop 20 ocs with all of my res and lose the game for me. Too complicated.
Too complex. Maybe if there was a resource manager role, but that would make aliens play too much like blue team.
im not a particually good alien player but i still think some kind of change is needed because the alien res system doesnt promote team play on pubs, i havent played in a clan so i dont know what its like there.
I would envision a voting system rather than having an kharaa commander. It wouldn't be hard to preserve the uniqueness of the two species. I'm still not sure how gorges and DI will fit into all of this though. Kharaa strategy option will depend a lot on how DI is spread.
exactly. the beauty of the res system is that the aliens are free to do as they wish. noob or not. if you were to lock things out, i would do it by activity rather than by skill, kind of like the way unlocks and badges work in the battlefield series.
A gorge must drop a total of 10 structures before the lerk is unlocked
A gorge must drop a total of 20 structures before the fade is unlocked
A gorge must drop a total of 40 structures before the onos is unlocked
A gorge must have healed 10 structures or life forms before ..... etc
this way you would actually have players gorging for a while anyway.
Although no that i think about this means that the first few rounds when ns2 gets released there would only be gorges structures and skulks lol. but its just an example anyways hehe.
No. It would be exactly as fun as games where you have only one class (CS is an example). Then when a player decides "i want to help my team by learning to play this game well" they can play the other lifeforms when they're ready. Further, it would actually be more diverse than other single-class games because they can play on either side of the conflict, and they can play gorge (and other similar low-skill-requirement classes if any are added) until they're ready for bigger guns.
There's no reason to give a new driver a Ferrari. Why is fading a right instead of a privilege?
Because this is a game, not a potentially deadly method of transportation. (And BTW, there's no law against new drivers buying a Ferrari.)
If ns 2 is to appeal to a market wider than its cult following its got to be accessable, which means no right wing policies on upgrades and evolution
PEOPLE WILL LEAVE IF THEY ARE NOT ALLOWED TO PROGRESS..
it'll fix retards wasting res and ruining the game, but it'll also mean retards join another server instead, one where they can evolve.
a new fix needs to be implemented, or figure a way to stop them leaving.
PEOPLE WILL LEAVE IF THEY ARE NOT ALLOWED TO PROGRESS..
it'll fix retards wasting res and ruining the game, but it'll also mean retards join another server instead, one where they can evolve.
a new fix needs to be implemented, or figure a way to stop them leaving.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Voting may be a fair solution but that depends a lot on players fair and could easily become a spamfest. I'm on the fence concerning voting for life forms. Just a simple objective list would help a lot for new players.
Primary objectives would always be:
Build Resource Towers
Build 3 ability chambers
build second hive
build 3 new ability chambers
build third hive
build 3 new ability chambers
Kill Marines: <Current count>
Kill Marine rts: <Current count>
Kill Marine structures: <Current count>
And as long as you achieved some of these goals you'd be able to unlock higher lifeforms. I guess restrictions are doable as long as a new player will be able to unlock higher lifeforms easily even if they can't kill marines.
There could be secondary triggered objectives like
Kill parasited/detected marines in/near <hive>
Defend rt at <location(s)>
Spread DI to rooms<locations>
if you really want the res system adjusted, then get your own server when NS2 is released and modify the game with LUA. then sit back and watch people whinge about your new system, and quit to find a better server.
If you force people to drop structures in order to unlock what they want then they'll just drop retarded structures or good structures in retarded places in order to unlock what they want.
If you want to make it a kill limit, then you're just going to have people straight lining marines EVEN MORE.
If you make it a kill ratio thing then what happens when marines are stacked and no one on aliens has a good enough ratio to go to a higher life form?
You want to make it a voting system, then who gets to vote? Everyone? You mean the same people who can't understand the fact that placing 3 sensory chambers right next to eachother in the middle of cargo is a bad idea? Or do you want to only allow the top players to vote? How do you determine top players? What happens when the top players are buddies and just want to piss everyone else off?
Pooled res? That's won't cut it either unless you have an alien commander (which is bad, the great thing about NS is the difference between the teams, keep them different). With pooled res you'll get those people who when you have 2 RTs and 3 res who say "come on you noob comm give me a jp/hmg" when you don't even have an AA completed yet, spending res in wasteful ways.
Again, I would love to force people to make competent choices during game play, but I just don't think it's possible (unless you're playing with bots). The best you can do is inform people of the strategic aspects of the game in an authorative mannor, meaning it can't come from some random person on a server, it has to come from the game itself/the developers, like a mandatory training system (like America's Army).
I agree with pretty much everything you said except that point, Asmo. When I say pretty much everything, I think that if you give a few early game restrictions to players in pubs you could make pooled res work, but I'll digress from that since it's not my main focus with this thread.
Anyway, yes, if a player is the type of person who will literally never learn to play the game intelligently, then you're right - they will continue to straightline over and over expecting different results, and then rage when they don't get them, but I think if you had a sort of token economy system whereby players would see the <b>individual goals</b> they needed to achieve (ie, kill a few marines, then you get to turn into this cool bat thing that can spit clouds of gas to kill marines) then you would naturally use the utility which is inarguably garnered from evolving into a new lifeform as a system to "lead" newbies where they needed to go. I believe it's more likely that these people would put 2 and 2 together and start thinking of better ways to accomplish those goals than "let me see if I can straightline. damn. let me see if i can straightline. damn..." over and over.
The point I'm making is that there will always be players who don't thoroughly understand the game but who are nevertheless on your team in a given pub (and I don't want to act like I'm on some ivory tower - inexperienced players are still valid players, but I don't think they need to be rewarded for the mistakes they make at the cost of all of their teammates). In addition, NS, (and I <!--coloro:lime--><span style="color:lime"><!--/coloro-->hope<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> NS2 as well) is an inextricably team-oriented game, so much so that one or two players' foolish decisions can literally ruin a 30-minute period of time for 4-10 other people.
The question I'm raising in this thread is whether or not UWE wants to punish a newbie's entire team for their mistakes, or if they think it might be a better option to gradually show new players how to play the game so that they <i>don't make those mistakes in the first place</i>.
As I see it, there are basically only a few feasible decisions: You can make more of an effort to show new players how the game ought to be played than simple hudhints, or you can let new players continue to ruin the game for their entire team, or (strictly the worst option imo) you can dumb down and segmentify NS gameplay to the point where anyone can do it without any prior thought, becuase there's nothing to it in the first place. I honestly think that the proposal I've given in this thread is the best answer to this problem, but playtesting could, in the end, prove me wrong.