<!--quoteo(post=1663919:date=Dec 14 2007, 02:28 AM:name=enigma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(enigma @ Dec 14 2007, 02:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1663919"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd say armor upkeep is more important than playing with scrap metal. I also don't recall quoting that second sentence. Flayra mentioned in the podcast something about one marine holding a piece of metal while another welded it in place. If the majority of players on pubs can't even grasp the concept of welding each other, how can this team-based welding system be expected to work?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It became a downward spiral with NS. Less people weld, less newbies know about the concept of welding players, and newest players probably don't even know it's in the game and disregard it. If the community keeps up with the welder duties in NS2, people WILL weld. It will act as proof that welding works ---> more wins. and trust me, people don't like to lose.
<!--quoteo(post=1663887:date=Dec 14 2007, 12:45 AM:name=Whiskey_Tango_Foxtrot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Whiskey_Tango_Foxtrot @ Dec 14 2007, 12:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1663887"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's not so much about catering to grievers so much as <b><i>factoring</b></i> in the possibility of grieving.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->That's the point though. You can't lessen the game for fear of the occasional griefer. Those two guys welding stuff onto doors could just as well just stand in the doorways and nothing short of moderators would get rid of them. You'll have to rely on server admins doing their job rather than the game catering to griefers.
<!--quoteo(post=1663919:date=Dec 14 2007, 06:28 AM:name=enigma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(enigma @ Dec 14 2007, 06:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1663919"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd say armor upkeep is more important than playing with scrap metal. I also don't recall quoting that second sentence. Flayra mentioned in the podcast something about one marine holding a piece of metal while another welded it in place. If the majority of players on pubs can't even grasp the concept of welding each other, how can this team-based welding system be expected to work?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No I added that second sentence to make a point of what I had already said and what you clearly hadn't taken in at the time... Yes armour upkeep is important, but welding in NS1 only does that, that’s it (and the odd vent door if you are lucky). It could do a million other things, so many crazy, exciting and interesting things. Things that would make all players go WOW! Things that would make maps change and be much more interesting to all players. If you had read what I had said then you would know that it is possible to do sooooo much more than "playing with scrap metal"...
<!--quoteo(post=1663778:date=Dec 13 2007, 12:59 AM:name=INKEDOUT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(INKEDOUT @ Dec 13 2007, 12:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1663778"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...You could have every door weld-able, walkways that need fixing using welds, computer terminals that turn on weaponry and open air vents that are all weld-able. You could even have a room that if the marines get into and weld something the whole hive is killed, or moved to another room. Maps could be dynamic and interchangeable just using welds and selected functions on hammer. Open rooms could become mazes of corridors, just using switches and welds. Rooms could become open to outer space or flooded with water or acid using welds. Dead ends could become corners that lead directly to extra res nodes. Or stairs could appear from the ground allowing players to get up to higher levels, where they may be able to attack the hive from or relocate to. Windows could open and let in extra light, filling a once dark and dangerous room with the light of a distant star and giving marines more chance of extra survival. The possibilities for weld-able targets are endless in terms of mapping, and particularly dynamic mapping: the kind of mapping that makes a game really interesting and constantly fresh and new.
Also think of the fun a gorge could have if he could weld things, or unweld things, especially if the maps are as dynamic as I have described. Say for example you had a room that was open to outer space when the marines arrive, say like a cargo hold that had its outer doors open (a perfectly understandable reason for a ship that has been evacuated quickly). Now they have to weld a terminal to close those doors and then they can go through that room and use it as a short cut to the hive. But then as they enter a gorge drops out of a vent behind them and starts welding the terminal they had just welded, the warning alarms go off as a squad of marines realise they only have seconds to get out of that room before they are sucked out into space. Or vice versa.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course we could just ask the UW team to make NS2 exactly the same as NS1 with better graphics and then play it as if we were all stereotypical CS players, in fact why don't we just import Dust and play it 24/7 just remove all new experience from the game, yeah that would rock!
<!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->I worry sometimes that the NS fan base is becoming the stereotypical CS fan base, people who don't want to see the game change and just want to play the same old maps over and over again. Please tell me I’m wrong. I thought NS was all about dynamics, the new and the unknown, it's in the companies name for crying out loud!
I hope the development team try out all possible options for NS2. I hope they play test as many welding options, see what kind of things work. At least then when the game comes out I and other NS fans can feel happy that they have chosen the most exciting, balanced and interesting things to include in the game, to make it as exciting, enjoyable and enduring game to me and other players. And I prey that during this process of development they will find lots and lots of cool new things to include in NS2. <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
EDIT:
<!--quoteo(post=1663892:date=Dec 14 2007, 12:21 AM:name=Buzzou)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Buzzou @ Dec 14 2007, 12:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1663892"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->people really need to take a chill-pill on this one. most are forgetting a few basic things -
1. flayra said all doors would be weldable - OPEN and CLOSED. so far everyone is only whinging about the closed part, without thinking of the other option.
2. we do not know how welders - or weldable objects - will work in NS2. it may be a case where you could simply un-weld someones previous weld, as the gameplay and strategy changes during the game. normal fire welds, alt-fire unwelds?? i doubt weld points will be like in NS1, where once they are welded, thats it. after all, they are talking about <u>dynamic</u> weldpoints, not static.
3. based on the current NS1 maps, the effect on gameplay and strategy could be minimal - or non-exsistant - depending on the map. what door would you weld in eclipse?
4. we dont know if the aliens will be able to weld stuff as well in NS2.... gorge spit FTW!
seriously guys, your initial fear and disgust at this idea has closed your minds to the vast possibilities that welding could bring to the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Amen brother! The possibilities are endless! You have single handily restored my faith in the NS fan base, thank you.
You talk about having weldable and unweldable doors. But you don't seem to have addressed what happens in the other direction. Think about Hera, where you weld through a closed door to open up a shortcut route to Archiving Hive. What exactly happens if the Aliens just break down the door at the beginning of the round, can the Marines re-weld? The way you were describing the door deforming sounds like the Aliens are actually destroying it for good.
I see two possible solutions for this:
- An Alien welder, or perhaps just an Alien 'de-welder'. E.g. the Gorge healspray has an acidic effect on solder and can undo a door that has been welded shut.
- Only the Onos can break down doors (using charge or a similar attack). This means that you could still have a 'Hera scenario', and the Aliens would have to wait until someone had the res (and perhaps the Hive tech) to use the ability that would break the door.
---
Nevertheless if you make things too open you make it even harder for mappers to balance their maps for NS. You should think about tying it to just doors and consoles/power units/transfer couplings. All of these still have to be mapper-placed or you have no control of gameflow, map navigation, team balance, exploits. It raises so many problems.
P.S. You could even make it so the Gorge can use webs or some sort of 'infest-o-matic' gun to weld just like the Marines can, using a similar minigame.
P.P.S. The minigame sounds great, just as long as it still happens in the first-person view instead of some weird Bioshock-style 2D mode.
How about a plasma cutter that you can cut a hole through any wall... That would balance the game <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1663959:date=Dec 14 2007, 01:54 PM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy @ Dec 14 2007, 01:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1663959"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You talk about having weldable and unweldable doors. But you don't seem to have addressed what happens in the other direction. Think about Hera, where you weld through a closed door to open up a shortcut route to Archiving Hive. What exactly happens if the Aliens just break down the door at the beginning of the round, can the Marines re-weld? The way you were describing the door deforming sounds like the Aliens are actually destroying it for good.
I see two possible solutions for this:
- An Alien welder, or perhaps just an Alien 'de-welder'. E.g. the Gorge healspray has an acidic effect on solder and can undo a door that has been welded shut.
- Only the Onos can break down doors (using charge or a similar attack). This means that you could still have a 'Hera scenario', and the Aliens would have to wait until someone had the res (and perhaps the Hive tech) to use the ability that would break the door.
---
Nevertheless if you make things too open you make it even harder for mappers to balance their maps for NS. You should think about tying it to just doors and consoles/power units/transfer couplings. All of these still have to be mapper-placed or you have no control of gameflow, map navigation, team balance, exploits. It raises so many problems.
P.S. You could even make it so the Gorge can use webs or some sort of 'infest-o-matic' gun to weld just like the Marines can, using a similar minigame.
P.P.S. The minigame sounds great, just as long as it still happens in the first-person view instead of some weird Bioshock-style 2D mode.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well welding is basically a switch with a load bar, currently the switch can only be turned one way, but by the sounds of things I think, if there is welding in maps, it will be a two way switch or possible a multi-direction switch. So basically a mapper can already play around with possibilities for what would happen to welds. Just set up a HL2 death match map in hammer, put in some delayed switches and locks and you can test some weld ideas, on a very basic level. Of course there are still plenty of other factors to take into account, like which teams will actually have welding and how long a weld might take to destroy and how central the weld is in the map, which the UW team will decided on, so we'll have to wait and see. <!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->I personally want to see more "welding" from both teams.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--quoteo(post=1664023:date=Dec 14 2007, 11:40 PM:name=Superfly)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Superfly @ Dec 14 2007, 11:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664023"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How about a plasma cutter that you can cut a hole through any wall... That would balance the game <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can imagine this may be difficult to implement on the current engine as how do you say what walls a player can and can't cut through? And if you do it as any wall, as you have said, what would be the point of a mapper :S LOL!
<!--quoteo(post=1664030:date=Dec 15 2007, 12:47 AM:name=INKEDOUT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(INKEDOUT @ Dec 15 2007, 12:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664030"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well welding is basically a switch with a load bar, currently the switch can only be turned one way, but by the sounds of things I think, if there is welding in maps, it will be a two way switch or possible a multi-direction switch. So basically a mapper can already play around with possibilities for what would happen to welds. Just set up a HL2 death match map in hammer, put in some delayed switches and locks and you can test some weld ideas, on a very basic level. Of course there are still plenty of other factors to take into account, like which teams will actually have welding and how long a weld might take to destroy and how central the weld is in the map, which the UW team will decided on, so we'll have to wait and see. <!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->I personally want to see more "welding" from both teams.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I think you missed the point I was trying to make, which is about what happens if an Alien 'charges through a door', as mentioned in the podcast. That would still create a one-way scenario, which wouldn't be as dynamic as a 2-way scenario.
Comments
Flayra mentioned in the podcast something about one marine holding a piece of metal while another welded it in place. If the majority of players on pubs can't even grasp the concept of welding each other, how can this team-based welding system be expected to work?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It became a downward spiral with NS. Less people weld, less newbies know about the concept of welding players, and newest players probably don't even know it's in the game and disregard it. If the community keeps up with the welder duties in NS2, people WILL weld. It will act as proof that welding works ---> more wins. and trust me, people don't like to lose.
You'll have to rely on server admins doing their job rather than the game catering to griefers.
Flayra mentioned in the podcast something about one marine holding a piece of metal while another welded it in place. If the majority of players on pubs can't even grasp the concept of welding each other, how can this team-based welding system be expected to work?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No I added that second sentence to make a point of what I had already said and what you clearly hadn't taken in at the time... Yes armour upkeep is important, but welding in NS1 only does that, that’s it (and the odd vent door if you are lucky). It could do a million other things, so many crazy, exciting and interesting things. Things that would make all players go WOW! Things that would make maps change and be much more interesting to all players. If you had read what I had said then you would know that it is possible to do sooooo much more than "playing with scrap metal"...
<!--quoteo(post=1663778:date=Dec 13 2007, 12:59 AM:name=INKEDOUT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(INKEDOUT @ Dec 13 2007, 12:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1663778"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...You could have every door weld-able, walkways that need fixing using welds, computer terminals that turn on weaponry and open air vents that are all weld-able. You could even have a room that if the marines get into and weld something the whole hive is killed, or moved to another room. Maps could be dynamic and interchangeable just using welds and selected functions on hammer. Open rooms could become mazes of corridors, just using switches and welds. Rooms could become open to outer space or flooded with water or acid using welds. Dead ends could become corners that lead directly to extra res nodes. Or stairs could appear from the ground allowing players to get up to higher levels, where they may be able to attack the hive from or relocate to. Windows could open and let in extra light, filling a once dark and dangerous room with the light of a distant star and giving marines more chance of extra survival. The possibilities for weld-able targets are endless in terms of mapping, and particularly dynamic mapping: the kind of mapping that makes a game really interesting and constantly fresh and new.
Also think of the fun a gorge could have if he could weld things, or unweld things, especially if the maps are as dynamic as I have described. Say for example you had a room that was open to outer space when the marines arrive, say like a cargo hold that had its outer doors open (a perfectly understandable reason for a ship that has been evacuated quickly). Now they have to weld a terminal to close those doors and then they can go through that room and use it as a short cut to the hive. But then as they enter a gorge drops out of a vent behind them and starts welding the terminal they had just welded, the warning alarms go off as a squad of marines realise they only have seconds to get out of that room before they are sucked out into space. Or vice versa.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course we could just ask the UW team to make NS2 exactly the same as NS1 with better graphics and then play it as if we were all stereotypical CS players, in fact why don't we just import Dust and play it 24/7 just remove all new experience from the game, yeah that would rock!
<!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->I worry sometimes that the NS fan base is becoming the stereotypical CS fan base, people who don't want to see the game change and just want to play the same old maps over and over again. Please tell me I’m wrong. I thought NS was all about dynamics, the new and the unknown, it's in the companies name for crying out loud!
I hope the development team try out all possible options for NS2. I hope they play test as many welding options, see what kind of things work. At least then when the game comes out I and other NS fans can feel happy that they have chosen the most exciting, balanced and interesting things to include in the game, to make it as exciting, enjoyable and enduring game to me and other players. And I prey that during this process of development they will find lots and lots of cool new things to include in NS2. <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
EDIT:
<!--quoteo(post=1663892:date=Dec 14 2007, 12:21 AM:name=Buzzou)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Buzzou @ Dec 14 2007, 12:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1663892"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->people really need to take a chill-pill on this one. most are forgetting a few basic things -
1. flayra said all doors would be weldable - OPEN and CLOSED. so far everyone is only whinging about the closed part, without thinking of the other option.
2. we do not know how welders - or weldable objects - will work in NS2. it may be a case where you could simply un-weld someones previous weld, as the gameplay and strategy changes during the game. normal fire welds, alt-fire unwelds?? i doubt weld points will be like in NS1, where once they are welded, thats it. after all, they are talking about <u>dynamic</u> weldpoints, not static.
3. based on the current NS1 maps, the effect on gameplay and strategy could be minimal - or non-exsistant - depending on the map. what door would you weld in eclipse?
4. we dont know if the aliens will be able to weld stuff as well in NS2.... gorge spit FTW!
seriously guys, your initial fear and disgust at this idea has closed your minds to the vast possibilities that welding could bring to the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Amen brother! The possibilities are endless! You have single handily restored my faith in the NS fan base, thank you.
I see two possible solutions for this:
- An Alien welder, or perhaps just an Alien 'de-welder'. E.g. the Gorge healspray has an acidic effect on solder and can undo a door that has been welded shut.
- Only the Onos can break down doors (using charge or a similar attack). This means that you could still have a 'Hera scenario', and the Aliens would have to wait until someone had the res (and perhaps the Hive tech) to use the ability that would break the door.
---
Nevertheless if you make things too open you make it even harder for mappers to balance their maps for NS. You should think about tying it to just doors and consoles/power units/transfer couplings. All of these still have to be mapper-placed or you have no control of gameflow, map navigation, team balance, exploits. It raises so many problems.
P.S. You could even make it so the Gorge can use webs or some sort of 'infest-o-matic' gun to weld just like the Marines can, using a similar minigame.
P.P.S. The minigame sounds great, just as long as it still happens in the first-person view instead of some weird Bioshock-style 2D mode.
I see two possible solutions for this:
- An Alien welder, or perhaps just an Alien 'de-welder'. E.g. the Gorge healspray has an acidic effect on solder and can undo a door that has been welded shut.
- Only the Onos can break down doors (using charge or a similar attack). This means that you could still have a 'Hera scenario', and the Aliens would have to wait until someone had the res (and perhaps the Hive tech) to use the ability that would break the door.
---
Nevertheless if you make things too open you make it even harder for mappers to balance their maps for NS. You should think about tying it to just doors and consoles/power units/transfer couplings. All of these still have to be mapper-placed or you have no control of gameflow, map navigation, team balance, exploits. It raises so many problems.
P.S. You could even make it so the Gorge can use webs or some sort of 'infest-o-matic' gun to weld just like the Marines can, using a similar minigame.
P.P.S. The minigame sounds great, just as long as it still happens in the first-person view instead of some weird Bioshock-style 2D mode.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well welding is basically a switch with a load bar, currently the switch can only be turned one way, but by the sounds of things I think, if there is welding in maps, it will be a two way switch or possible a multi-direction switch. So basically a mapper can already play around with possibilities for what would happen to welds. Just set up a HL2 death match map in hammer, put in some delayed switches and locks and you can test some weld ideas, on a very basic level. Of course there are still plenty of other factors to take into account, like which teams will actually have welding and how long a weld might take to destroy and how central the weld is in the map, which the UW team will decided on, so we'll have to wait and see. <!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->I personally want to see more "welding" from both teams.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--quoteo(post=1664023:date=Dec 14 2007, 11:40 PM:name=Superfly)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Superfly @ Dec 14 2007, 11:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664023"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How about a plasma cutter that you can cut a hole through any wall... That would balance the game <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can imagine this may be difficult to implement on the current engine as how do you say what walls a player can and can't cut through? And if you do it as any wall, as you have said, what would be the point of a mapper :S LOL!