*Actual* discussion on new starting alien(s)

2

Comments

  • darktimesdarktimes Join Date: 2007-12-24 Member: 63247Members
    well sayd

    i mean a "warrior" would be a better start life-form as a "scouter"
    more hp and armor as a lerk that it can survive a
    sg blast or a mag from a lmg

    raptore like (or others, its unnecessery)
    whit the size betweden a gorge and fade ( 2/3 from a fade )

    i think this make i little more damage as a skulk
    maybe 85
    hp: 140
    armor: 120

    the abilites 1 and 2 are easy
    but 3,4 need skill (not to much) *

    can slow wall-walk

    <b>its not free </b> ( not to much
    i think its cost 15,20

    i mean theres
    skulk: scout or early attack (useless at endgame)

    gorge: support

    lerk: support 2

    fade : very strong hit and run unit

    onos what it is : slow hit, eat and retreat (hit`n run) (thats bad. its a TANK damned <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" /> )


    i hope you can see this hole
    by the fade and the supporters
    the fade is powerfull. and most times stronger as a onos
    and supporter are not attack units
    this life-form fill this hole
    as a midd game unit

    when rines get shotguns befor one alien have 50res
    its most over

    * abilites

    1. bite

    2. i hear that most gujs want a splash damage:
    a leap like skulk but weaker
    when you hit the ground you have a small "quake"
    like stomp but in a area around you (maybe 4 feed?)
    that shake the view from marines and make it hard to aim for few secs <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/asrifle.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::asrifle::" border="0" alt="asrifle.gif" />

    3. no idea, but you need time to learn how you use it right
    4. same here



    sorry that i post in a old thread ( and the lang post <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> )
  • StixNStonzStixNStonz Join Date: 2006-11-06 Member: 58439Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, but, you just -can't- have a newbie-only class. It becomes next to useless when you get better in the game. In the current NS, there's -incentive- to go all of the various different alien classes, at any stage of the game, whether you're a new player or a more experienced one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Well, there's no real incentive in going skulk over Fade, except that you're forced too. Anyone would go fade or onos rather than skulk, but the game forbids it unless they reached a certain goal, which is resources.

    If you're forcing players to go a basic class, why not give them a second option that is balanced but more geared towards newer players? There will ALWAYS be new-ish players, and ALWAYS players who feel more comfortable in a class like the one proposed. More hp but slower? They wouldnt care, cuz they'd take more hits. They'd like that, because they'd be taking tons of hits anyways. Why? Because they're new and can't evade fire. Thats the design flaw in the current skulks; they're completely useless when you're new. At least this new class would be more useful in terms of more hp.
  • RadixRadix Join Date: 2005-01-10 Member: 34654Members, Constellation
    I guess a high-hp low speed starter caste would encourage teamwork?
  • StixNStonzStixNStonz Join Date: 2006-11-06 Member: 58439Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    In many ways, i'd think so. Skulks are meant more for the lone assassins, but in packs they can take on packs of marines. This new class would let newer players actually be worthwhile additions to any group effort; as skulks, they'd instead just die instantly from walking towards their enemies <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />


    Another thing that could effect this class would be to make it cost 2 res or such. That way, players would still have incentive to learn skulk and learn it well; but it would ALWAYS be worth it for a new player to spend that measly 2 res on a class that would be of such benefit to him. At least while he learns the ropes.
  • CanadianWolverineCanadianWolverine Join Date: 2003-02-07 Member: 13249Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1667330:date=Jan 13 2008, 05:37 PM:name=StixNStonz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StixNStonz @ Jan 13 2008, 05:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1667330"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Another thing that could effect this class would be to make it cost 2 res or such.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    The problem with that though is new players are "really" new, you can't expect them to even grasp the concept of spending resources just yet, you need to have the life form they first spawn as be the default class, the starter life form.

    To this end, I am still certain that since gorges have a lower speed, higher hit points, and even spit as a ranged weapon, they are perfect for the default class. Make the skulk cost 2 res. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
  • StixNStonzStixNStonz Join Date: 2006-11-06 Member: 58439Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=1667340:date=Jan 13 2008, 08:43 PM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Jan 13 2008, 08:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1667340"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem with that though is new players are "really" new, you can't expect them to even grasp the concept of spending resources just yet, you need to have the life form they first spawn as be the default class, the starter life form.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Its one thing for new players to understand the depth and idiosyncrasies of the NS res economy; but its quite another for them to understand how to spend res. Its like money. Everyone understand that when you have money, you can spend it. In NS, they start with 25; they may not understand how they get more of it, or how many rts mean you're in a good position etc, but they can always understand that they can spend it using the menu.

    The original proposal was to spawn as skulk, and be able to upgrade to this other class for free. Following the same format, I was saying that in turn, this class could cost a small amount of res, so there's more incentive to go as the weaker, more skill-driven Skulk (scout) class.

    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To this end, I am still certain that since gorges have a lower speed, higher hit points, and even spit as a ranged weapon, they are perfect for the default class. Make the skulk cost 2 res. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I still highly disagree with this. They are in no way the 'perfect default class'. For one, their gameplay style is completely different from the entire alien approach; their only real attack is a ranged weapon. In no way should the basic, newb-friendly alien class be that reminiscent of marines.

    As i mentioned a few posts up,

    <!--QuoteBegin-'StixNStonz'+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE('StixNStonz')</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->(if the gorge became a free starting class,) you'd have to rework the whole res system; you'd take away most of the small thrill of killing gorges; I don't even know what would happen with Gorge Rushes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    My proposal was an add-on to the current NS gameplay. Add in a balanced class that is an option for newer players, without throwing the whole game into chaos. Simply by making the gorge free, you would have to completely revamp the alien economic system to balance it out. Want to give that a shot? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
  • RadixRadix Join Date: 2005-01-10 Member: 34654Members, Constellation
    And make the animation look like this when they're evolving to the new class:

    <center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/pWsyZY60FfA"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/pWsyZY60FfA" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>

    Make sure to include the "NOT HIM TOO!" emote for the marines.
  • puzlpuzl The Old Firm Join Date: 2003-02-26 Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
    We actually had a similar idea during an NS design discussion. The primary purpose for the discussion was to give skulks a cheap way to take part in more direct confrontation with the marines. Our working name for it was the 'Skade', which coincidentally is Norwegian for damage. We had a whole range of ideas but we never got serious about doing anything with it.
  • naggynaggy Join Date: 2005-03-22 Member: 46068Members
    edited January 2008
    <i><u><b>*[b]ACTUAL PROPOSAL</b>*[/b]</u>!!!1!onetwo </i>lets give this new life form noclip and make it so when people shoot it the bullets go back and hit the shooter first, and mak<!--coloro:#9ACD32--><span style="color:#9ACD32"><!--/coloro-->e it so t<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->ha<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->t wh<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->en a mari<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->ne runs into visual sight of the new alien they just <u><b>die instantly </b></u>cause they're overcome by leetness due to its <!--coloro:#FF00FF--><span style="color:#FF00FF"><!--/coloro-->*actua<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--coloro:#00FFFF--><span style="color:#00FFFF"><!--/coloro-->l*<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> twin anti-personnel missle system on its legs which make it fly around corners and teleport to the hives and rine spawn instantly.

    Make it look like this.

    <!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->*actual proposal*<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
    <img src="http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s87/bobokallis/mud-crab3.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />

    Ah, n giv thaym
    like 100939084070709725hp/
    ap
    so u donet die <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/asrifle.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::asrifle::" border="0" alt="asrifle.gif" /> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/skulk.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::skulk::" border="0" alt="skulk.gif" />



    at strat of game
    well sayd.

    And then throw in <!--coloro:#48D1CC--><span style="color:#48D1CC"><!--/coloro-->'actual proposal'<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> 7 more life forms that all do the same thing and then rename NS2 to *actual proposal* 'Tremulous' <!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->(actual proposal)<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->

    ...

    Seriously, thats what these threads are turning into and/or already sound like.

    NS2 <b>doesn't</b> need a new life form. Skulks are <b>perfect</b> the way they are, and so is the way the game works. The only problem with NS being 'noob unfriendly' is the fact that some people are retards who can't learn to do things properly over extended periods of time (eg. a CS geebin/12yo).

    All that is needed is a simple tutorial telling people wtf they have to do.

    Actual Proposal: Learn2havereasonableideas.

    Please.
  • StixNStonzStixNStonz Join Date: 2006-11-06 Member: 58439Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    GJ at being 12, naggy. The reason the title says *actual* is two-fold. One, because someone had posted a thread called 'discussion on new starting alien' that was a complete immature 111one1 post (like your own?), yet the topic warranted real discussion. Second, it was because it was an actual discussion.

    NS needs <u>something</u> to help the learning curve. Tutorials would help, but I'm guessing you don't listen to the podcasts, because Flayra seems to be hinting at potentially changing the skulk quite a bit.

    <!--QuoteBegin-'naggy'+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE('naggy')</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Skulks are perfect the way they are, and so is the way the game works.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    <i><u>I AGREE</u></i>. But the dev's do not, and are planning big changes for NS2. One of the biggest issues with NS is the learning curve, so I'm sure this is also on the top of their list for changes.

    I want the skulk to stay the same as it is. Hence why a second starting class, which is less skill-driven and more newb-friendly, could keep the skulk exactly how it is now. But you can't seem to understand that. How would you feel if the skulk was nerfed into a more 'scout' role, like Flayra said?

    With this new class, the skulk can remain how it is now, which is: hard to learn (and very, very weak before being learned), and very hard to master (but very, very powerful when mastered).

    This other class fits the role of: easy to learn (low-medium power before learned) and easy to master (medium power when mastered). Newbs will enjoy it more when they first get into NS, but will soon (or at least gradually) realize the raw potential of the Skulk, and learn it at their own pace.



    So puzl, is there any word on what the devs are doing about this issue for NS2? If at all? ...are you on the NS2 dev team?
  • darktimesdarktimes Join Date: 2007-12-24 Member: 63247Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1667374:date=Jan 14 2008, 02:30 PM:name=naggy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(naggy @ Jan 14 2008, 02:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1667374"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->doesn't[/b] need a new life form. Skulks are <b>perfect</b> the way they are, and so is the way the game works. The only problem with NS being 'noob unfriendly' is the fact that some people are retards who can't learn to do things properly over extended periods of time (eg. a CS geebin/12yo).

    All that is needed is a <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->simple tutorial<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> telling people wtf they have to do.

    Please.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


    100000% agree

    and i have to say

    I. AM. A. NOOB.

    ok i say it

    people <b>underestimate</b> the use of guides and tutorials
    they help alot
    ALOT
    only thanks the help from the guides and tutorials from the WWW
    have i understand that game so fast
    (and offcourse i play 9 houres per day)
    A RED flashing tutorial buttom at the middle of the screen would be usefull
    and when not .is mankind lost
    and also some tutorial vidios instead of this boring logos (sorry: i dont mean that bad)
    and some links on the left side to good guides
    all that make it really hard to ignore the gameplay mechaniks

    PS: i love ns1 and hope that ns2 replace all cs and bfs on the world
  • CanadianWolverineCanadianWolverine Join Date: 2003-02-07 Member: 13249Members
    edited January 2008
    Unfortunately, not everyone reads the tutorials <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" /> Which is why I think the default starting for a new player should be to play a tutorial before the intense atmosphere of multiplayer is engaged in.

    For a good number of players, plug and play is the ideal method, so its important to realize the first impression a player will have of the game as a Kharaa or Marine. Marines are somewhat familiar, what are the chances someone has tried other games where a human is using a ranged weapon? But as the Kharaa, what are the chances they have had that experience before? We've all seen what happens, the new player wonders where the weapons are, they figure out they bite stuff, then its off to find something to bite, and then wonder why they die so easy. We have names for them, "Walker Skulk" and "Walker Fade", well more specifically then the potentially more derogative term "Noob". Its term that is used to display dominance over others: "Haha, noob!" You think that is the kind of first impression we want a first time Kharaa player to have? Why not give them something more familar, a ranged weapon. I don't care if its skulk, gorge, lerk, whatever - as long as the new player can get even a bit of familiarity they will be more comfortable their first time in the game.

    Because gorge already has a ranged weapon and they are not uncommon to see in the early game I thought they would be a fit without the need to have the Devs do more art assets, more balancing of a new life form, just more work. Also, its been suggested that the new player needs more hit points / armor points but a slower speed than a skulk, gorges have that too. On top of that, they heal easier, so it allows the new player a second chance in their first slip ups.

    We don't take kids from the wading pool and starter swimming classes, then toss them in the deep end for a reason. In a free HL1 mod, this was forgivable; in a pay to play stand alone game it can only hurt their sales to give the new player such a steep learning curve.

    <!--quoteo(post=1667352:date=Jan 13 2008, 11:34 PM:name=StixNStonz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StixNStonz @ Jan 13 2008, 11:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1667352"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Simply by making the gorge free, you would have to completely revamp the alien economic system to balance it out. Want to give that a shot? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    If you have looked in threads about Kharaa Commander discussion and Marine Purchasing Weapons, you will have seen I and others have been "giving it a shot" in terms of discussion. Note those are subjects that have been brought into the spot light by comments from the Devs themselves in podcasts, who also have mentioned they are already revamping the alien (and marine) economic system, so that they have something they can be more flexible with ideas in. So, to definitely answer your question: "Yes, I will give it a shot."
  • locallyunscenelocallyunscene Feeder of Trolls Join Date: 2002-12-25 Member: 11528Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1667374:date=Jan 14 2008, 08:30 AM:name=naggy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(naggy @ Jan 14 2008, 08:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1667374"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All that is needed is a simple tutorial telling people wtf they have to do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Except showing a person a simple tutorial of using a skulk will not get them anywhere. An easier, but less powerful newbie class would be much better at keeping players in the game then telling them to go RTFM. The trick is to make the game fun while players are learning it, or else they won't want to learn it.
  • CanadianWolverineCanadianWolverine Join Date: 2003-02-07 Member: 13249Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1667411:date=Jan 14 2008, 02:43 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Jan 14 2008, 02:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1667411"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Except showing a person a simple tutorial of using a skulk will not get them anywhere. An easier, but less powerful newbie class would be much better at keeping players in the game then telling them to go RTFM. The trick is to make the game fun while players are learning it, or else they won't want to learn it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Very well said. We want to sink the hook into new players, teach them in such a fun way that they stick around and explore the deep end of the pool.
  • darktimesdarktimes Join Date: 2007-12-24 Member: 63247Members
    edited January 2008
    a tutorial whit a story?
    maybe the first contact of the two races
    youre a skulk wo scout this invaders
    the hivemind is the instructor
    by the marines is it the comm
    and you research this new "animals"
    theres many ways to make a tutorial fun and interesting
    and maybe you can only start playing the multiplayer when you have play the tutorial (that would be saved in a folder, that you dont need everytime to play the tut. when you start NS2

    and a little massage on the screen that you need imidiedly to go in the "missions briefing room" (tutorial whit a other name)
  • naggynaggy Join Date: 2005-03-22 Member: 46068Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1667399:date=Jan 14 2008, 12:33 PM:name=StixNStonz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StixNStonz @ Jan 14 2008, 12:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1667399"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->GJ at being 12, naggy. The reason the title says *actual* is two-fold. One, because someone had posted a thread called 'discussion on new starting alien' that was a complete immature 111one1 post (like your own?), yet the topic warranted real discussion. Second, it was because it was an actual discussion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    The only reason i totally over exaggerated that post is because people have some <b>really</b> ######ed up ideas that <b>they know won't work</b>, yet post them anyways on a serious note with 10mins worth of reading time to get the gist of the idea. I know its tempting to get your idea out there, and I myself once did what I'm talking about, but to make an idea get somewhere you gotta plant the seed and let it grow into something.

    <!--quoteo(post=1667399:date=Jan 14 2008, 12:33 PM:name=StixNStonz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StixNStonz @ Jan 14 2008, 12:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1667399"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS needs <u>something</u> to help the learning curve. Tutorials would help, but I'm guessing you don't listen to the podcasts, because Flayra seems to be hinting at potentially changing the skulk quite a bit.
    <i><u>I AGREE</u></i>. But the dev's do not, and are planning big changes for NS2. One of the biggest issues with NS is the learning curve, so I'm sure this is also on the top of their list for changes.

    I want the skulk to stay the same as it is. Hence why a second starting class, which is less skill-driven and more newb-friendly, could keep the skulk exactly how it is now. But you can't seem to understand that. How would you feel if the skulk was nerfed into a more 'scout' role, like Flayra said?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Skulks ARE a scout class, they are lightly armored, agile and have parasite to show the location of enemy structures/players. How could you nerf it into anything more retarded?

    <!--quoteo(post=1667411:date=Jan 14 2008, 02:43 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Jan 14 2008, 02:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1667411"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Except showing a person a simple tutorial of using a skulk will not get them anywhere. An easier, but less powerful newbie class would be much better at keeping players in the game then telling them to go RTFM. The trick is to make the game fun while players are learning it, or else they won't want to learn it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Solution: Make Bites secondary fire Parasite, replace Parasite's weaponslot with Leap. Add some stupid new 'scout' ability for weaponslot 3.

    Tbh, Skulks SHOULD ALWAYS have leap, it is a core ability required for any kind of proper skulk use. Anyone who has ever played as a skulk without leap would know that instantly, and now that i think about it, I can see why people think that the learning curve is hard.

    And for the tutorial, simply showing players WHAT to do will immensely help the tards out.

    Start with the basic key movements:
    Strafing: have the player strafe around a test dummy whilst keeping the target in their crosshair
    Jumping: same as above, but make them jump and strafe
    Wallclimbing: have the player go through an easy, moderate and hard wallclimbing course that goes over rounded edges, vertical slopes and 90 degree angle corners.

    Then move on to attacks.
    Biting: Have the player chase a moving dummy biting it
    Parasiting: Target practice on moving dummies.
    Leaping: Have the player use leap to close distance between the moving target and themselves, then bite.

    Mix both Movement and Attack tutorials into one lesson in the end that involves everything that has been learned, and hey presto you have a non-retarded player.

    If something as easy as that was implemented, I can guarantee 90% of the people that play would start finding the controls and 'steep learning curve' as easy as something like CS or DoD. So long as the player has SOME idea of wtf to do with the apparatus they are given, their skill will increase over time. When the player has no idea what they should be doing, THAT is when they get frustrated and ragequit with a bad experience and/or never increase in skill.
  • puzlpuzl The Old Firm Join Date: 2003-02-26 Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
    To answer your question first Stix, I am not on the NS2 team.

    Be honest, how many of you play through tutorials? 90% of the time, I just jump in. I prefer to learn under pressure, and always have. Having said that, I think a tutorial would help, but I do not think it is the panacea that will fix the NS learning curve. So many people see a problem for others and it is easier to diagnose it by pointing at what is missing than what is wrong. There are many things about the skulk that are non-intuitive, and this is true of almost all NS player moment. Why is it better to evade a skulk by using strafe and turn? Why does the fastest mechanism for moving forward as a skulk involve no use of the forward keys? These are not skills that people learn, they are trained movements that require no understanding of the underlying mechanism and a person cannot learn them by imitating others. You have to be thought the tricks. So although I think the alien team could do with another class, I fail to see why it is needed to address the issues with skulking. The skulks role is fine, but the implementation is far from fine. You won't fix the learning curve in NS by introducing yet another class. You need to refine the controls to make them intuitive. This isn't to say that the class should be dumbed down. Similar levels of complexity and skill differentiation can be achieved in an intuitive way.

    Also, anyone who thinks the Skulk or NS is perfect is lacking in imagination. I think it is probably more correct to interpret such statements as "I have perfected my skulking and don't want it to change". The same is true of NS. There is always room for improvement, in pretty much everything one does.

    To put it another way.

    "NS needs better gameplay more than it needs better graphics".
  • naggynaggy Join Date: 2005-03-22 Member: 46068Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1667490:date=Jan 15 2008, 06:11 AM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(puzl @ Jan 15 2008, 06:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1667490"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"NS needs better gameplay more than it needs better graphics".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Apparently, l33t graphix = win by todays gaming standards (WTS Crysis/other retarded fps game that requires a $10,000 computer to run.)
  • puzlpuzl The Old Firm Join Date: 2003-02-26 Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
    Crysis hasn't been successful at all really. And I'm not saying that NS doesn't need better graphics, it clearly does, but it also needs to be more accessible and it needs to also improve some of the gameplay elements in NS. I applaud the NS2 devs for investigating concepts like self-purchased weapons and alien commanders. I note that they say nothing is final but I'm totally happy that they are trying out some new directions for team organisation.
  • DeadmanDieingDeadmanDieing Join Date: 2004-02-23 Member: 26811Members, Constellation
    Honestly the thing with the skulk is that you need to use your environment to your advantage. How would you build up to a vet player, well an in game tutorial would help. Where you go though a series of obsitcales. Go though holes and walk on the walls ceilings. Get people used to the idea that really what you see is your playground and that walls and ceilings are fun places to go too. I mean Ive gotten past a few marines groups in big rooms by just 'walking' on the ceiling.

    Honestly I dont like the idea of a "newbie class" where prety much once you move past it, it has no other uses. I mean all classes on alien have a place in the end game. I mean a 3 hive skulk with xenocide can decimate a group of marines. that have been gassed, chomped on. Or in groups with xenocide. Also Sklulk is a good quick reinforce for Hives. And just good while all the rines are trying to hit a fade or onos.

    Honestly I want a class that can jump up walls. You know jump from 1 wall to another back to the first one to go up it. Thats just personal prefrence tho.
  • HarimauHarimau Join Date: 2007-12-24 Member: 63250Members
    edited January 2008
    Simply put, tutorials are boring, though they might help.
    Most people, me included, prefer to jump straight into the game.

    <!--quoteo(post=1667512:date=Jan 15 2008, 10:42 PM:name=DeadmanDieing)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DeadmanDieing @ Jan 15 2008, 10:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1667512"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Honestly I dont like the idea of a "newbie class" where prety much once you move past it, it has no other uses. I mean all classes on alien have a place in the end game. I mean a 3 hive skulk with xenocide can decimate a group of marines. that have been gassed, chomped on. Or in groups with xenocide. Also Sklulk is a good quick reinforce for Hives. And just good while all the rines are trying to hit a fade or onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Thank you. This is the point I was trying to make earlier.
  • darktimesdarktimes Join Date: 2007-12-24 Member: 63247Members
    edited January 2008
    hey when you make a tutorial whit a story and npcs like a singleplayer mode
    would that be boring??
    i dont mean that type of tutorial who a voice in the universe say
    " to move forward press W"
    i mean a story tutorial that dont feel like a tutorial
  • HarimauHarimau Join Date: 2007-12-24 Member: 63250Members
    yeah, thought of that too, but i think Flayra has said that if he were to create a singleplayer NS game, he'd want to dedicate some real time and effort to it, but the priorities atm lie with the multiplayer game.
  • locallyunscenelocallyunscene Feeder of Trolls Join Date: 2002-12-25 Member: 11528Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1667512:date=Jan 15 2008, 08:42 AM:name=DeadmanDieing)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DeadmanDieing @ Jan 15 2008, 08:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1667512"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Honestly I dont like the idea of a "newbie class" where prety much once you move past it, it has no other uses. I mean all classes on alien have a place in the end game. I mean a 3 hive skulk with xenocide can decimate a group of marines. that have been gassed, chomped on. Or in groups with xenocide. Also Skulk is a good quick reinforce for Hives. And just good while all the rines are trying to hit a fade or onos.

    Honestly I want a class that can jump up walls. You know jump from 1 wall to another back to the first one to go up it. Thats just personal prefrence tho.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    There's no reason the class has to become useless at high levels. It would have to have it's own uses like the skulk at hive 3. The idea is just that one of the support classes(probably a new one) should be easier to play at low levels for newbies.
    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, anyone who thinks the Skulk or NS is perfect is lacking in imagination. I think it is probably more correct to interpret such statements as "I have perfected my skulking and don't want it to change". The same is true of NS. There is always room for improvement, in pretty much everything one does.

    To put it another way.

    "NS needs better gameplay more than it needs better graphics".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I don't really see how those two paragraphs mean the same thing. Neither Canadian, Hari, Naggy, nor Dark have been talking about graphics. This discussion has been about tutorials and starting classes. I agree with the rest of your post.
    <!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=naggy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(naggy)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Tbh, Skulks SHOULD ALWAYS have leap, it is a core ability required for any kind of proper skulk use. Anyone who has ever played as a skulk without leap would know that instantly, and now that i think about it, I can see why people think that the learning curve is hard.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    This is probably the best way to make skulking easier. I could see movement becoming an innate feature since it pretty much is for fade and lerk. Onos is really the only one who doesn't have a movement ability as an innate feature but that makes sense.
  • StixNStonzStixNStonz Join Date: 2006-11-06 Member: 58439Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Just like how the skulk becomes a whole lot more combat-effective at 2 hives, so could this new class. Make the 2nd hive ability different/good/teamwork-based enough that people will still use it. Because as it is, it would already always be useful in the early game. Maybe its 3rd ability is a spit-like weapon which partially obscures the marine's view? or makes his gun stutter, or even temporarily jam? or for a movement ability, the ability be a +movement one, where the lifeform rolls forward quickly, straight, for a few meters. That'd be a pretty cool little 3rd hive ability.
  • Moving_Target0Moving_Target0 Join Date: 2006-12-21 Member: 59174Members
    Well, I didn't exactly read everything you guys said, so pardon me if there's any repeats, but here's a suggestion I have.

    In my opinion, the main thing that makes new players feel so worthless as a skulk is they see the advanced players all over the place munching down marines before they know what hit them. It doesn't matter which team they're on; they will try to do the same thing. However, it is sadly much harder than most people make it look, and they get discouraged. In-game tutorials as you play is a good thing, but perhaps not good enough.

    I saw earlier that the gorge was a proposed starting form. This would be good, but I have another idea; it would be a life form derived from the gorge so they don't get yelled at for being a crappy builder, but still other people might like to use.

    The form itself would have a speed a little bit slower than the skulk, so the new players don't get disoriented, (as a newbie, I would often run past enemies and miss with my bite) and for balance. It would have slightly higher HP than the skulk as well. It would keep the gorge's "spit" as the primary attack key. However, since most people aren't used to marines going all over the place as they do in NS, it would have a faster rate of fire and less damage. This way, they could hit more often, and perhaps not get as frustrated. The second basic attack would be a quick swipe with a claw of some sort, or a similar melee attack; this would be for those who want to train for skulkhood, but aren't quite ready for it. Note that this would still be an attack that could be lethal. The third hive ability could be a support movement skill, something like a lunge that can still propel them forward if they don't aim it right (unlike leap), and the final hive ability would be a support skill. The new players would get a little taste of various classes this way, and would still be able to do damage and not feel as useless. This way, as it's a new life form, they wouldn't feel as obligated to be an uber matrix-style skulk that kills all, but even pro players might like the new, mixed basic form.

    I tried to keep a decent balance there, but it's definitely not absolute. In any case, I think a class like this would be "easy to learn" as they could focus on any number of things, but something that could still be fun and easy yet difficult to master.

    There's my two cents on the issue.
  • StixNStonzStixNStonz Join Date: 2006-11-06 Member: 58439Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    For my proposal, I tried to keep the ranged abilities of the new class to a minimum. NS has a very noticeable gap between the two teams, a gap that comprises many axes. One of the most noticeable is the melee vs ranged combat.

    For both 1-hive and 2-hive combat scenarios (read: the vast majority of all games), the <i>only</i> lifeform with a direct ranged attack is the Gorge, and its two form; both his Spit and his OC attacks. Yes the lerk has Gas, but that is not a direct weapon. I believe this is the reasoning behind the devs removing the lerk spikes.

    To create a free starting class with spit, beit as the one you mentioned or the actually free gorge that some people have suggested, would really throw off this gameplay. You'd suddenly see a whole lot more battles of spit vs gun, which is awesome in its current state, but would end up being very lame without the gorge vulnerability/expense/novelty, as well as the far higher frequency due to the free class. It'd be turning NS into CS that much more.

    With my proposal, I tried to keep true to the values of the Aliens while mixing in some ranged teamwork-oriented weapons. The first weapon would be a standard (but slightly weaker) melee, while the second would be a bile-bomb-like weapon that does most of its damage to armor. With its higher HP and lower speed, this would create a well-rounded class for newbies.
  • Moving_Target0Moving_Target0 Join Date: 2006-12-21 Member: 59174Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1668101:date=Jan 22 2008, 03:52 PM:name=StixNStonz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StixNStonz @ Jan 22 2008, 03:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1668101"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To create a free starting class with spit, beit as the one you mentioned or the actually free gorge that some people have suggested, would really throw off this gameplay. You'd suddenly see a whole lot more battles of spit vs gun, which is awesome in its current state, but would end up being very lame without the gorge vulnerability/expense/novelty, as well as the far higher frequency due to the free class. It'd be turning NS into CS that much more.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    If you're trying to say you don't like my idea because it has "spit" as a starting attack, then please do re-read the post. It can spit, sure, but it's not any better than that of a gorge. Having a basic class that noobs can learn quickly, even if it has a ranged attack (heaven forbid), is very important. I don't think having a class using a form of "spit" is going to turn this into CS, or even close. The class would still be vulnerable; not much more health than a skulk. In fact, it would probably have less than a gorge. The idea was to make it somewhat like a skulk, but a little more forgiving for making an error, and to help people find out what style of play they want to use. The idea of a more tank-ish class is fine by me as well, I know I'm going to stick with skulks. But make sure to read all the details before you discard a suggestion.
  • StixNStonzStixNStonz Join Date: 2006-11-06 Member: 58439Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited January 2008
    Your logic is getting a bit muddled, at least from my perspective. Yes, i dislike your idea because it has spit as a starting attack. Now I've re-read your post, and still see nothing that explains why it needs a ranged attack when the other 4 offensive classes are all melee. It is part of being an Alien that you dont shoot stuff; shooting is for the Marines. What you suggest is a ranged attack, and adding in a ranged attack to the basic aliens would change the gameplay as well as the overall theme drastically.

    Gorges get to spit. Aside from that, there is no other direct ranged weapon until the third hive Acid Rocket (you can't count Parasite because its damage could never be used offensively aside from the one specialist application [bite bite para], and spore is an area-of-effect weapon, hence indirect). So the only time you see aliens using ranged weapons is when its a gorge, who happens to be slow, fat, and weak. Gorges are also meant to be builders; they are very ill-suited for an offensive or defensive role on their own. Even as support they are lacking, acting almost solely in a i'll-heal-you-way-behind-our-lines fashion.

    Again, gorges are the <u>ONLY</u> class to get a ranged weapon on aliens, and its a pretty weak one at that (since its projectile, and its fairly low-powered).

    Contrast this Alien class setup versus the Marines.

    What are the marines' weapons like? They are <u>ALL</u> ranged, except for the last-resort or chamber-killing Knife.

    This isn't some abstract concept that I'm talking about. This is a specific design choice by the devs, to create a very visible divide between the two teams.

    This is why you can just go handing out direct ranged weapons to new alien classes; it doesn't fit the theme whatsoever. This reasoning is almost certainly why they took away the Lerk Spike; they realized it was out of place [creating ranged combat between marines and the lerk] and that Spore would lead to far more interesting gameplay while maintaining the theme.

    You told me to re-read your post. Well, how about you read mine, since you said it yourself that you havn't read much of the thread at all. The class I proposed is a lot more 'alien-like', by having its offensive power mostly in its melee, but tossing in a ranged AoE weapon that is used in a half-support half-combat role. With higher HP than a skulk and lower speed, and 3rd hive ability being a +movement ability (rolling forward a couple of feet), it seems like it would find its place amongst the other classes very quickly.
  • Moving_Target0Moving_Target0 Join Date: 2006-12-21 Member: 59174Members
    I read the first page and a half or so, and yes, I saw your suggestion for a melee alien. I think it's very good. What you don't need to do is borderline flame someone and their ideas because you think that spit is a bad idea to give an alien.

    I realize that this would be creating more ranged combat. I realize that the devs made the aliens melee for a reason. I don't see why giving an alien class a form of spit (same effectiveness as that of a gorge, nonetheless) makes the entire idea turn sour. You don't like it? Make a suggestion, don't whine that yours is better. I have enough experience to know what the devs did and why. The reason I gave spit as a primary weapon was because I think it would help <b>new players be able to see if they liked more of a supporting role or more of an offensive role, and they can go from there.</b>

    ...And gorges are meant to do more than just build and heal from way back behind the lines. They're meant to create new offensive outposts on the front lines (when there are no siege turrets present), to siege enemies when they have cover (which should be most of the time), and to heal just behind the fray of battle so that their allies can keep fighting.

    Now that we have that out of the way, let's get back on topic. Anyone else for suggestions?
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