Stronger End-Games
Sarisel
.::' ( O ) ';:-. .-.:;' ( O ) '::. Join Date: 2003-07-30 Member: 18557Members, Constellation
.::' ( O ) ';:-. .-.:;' ( O ) '::. Join Date: 2003-07-30 Member: 18557Members, Constellation
This is a separate continuation of an earlier rant. Remembering many NS pub games, there would be times when the marines were reasonably teched up and turtling in their base. Aliens would control the entire map, but would still have difficulty finishing off the marines. Often this would require waiting for a third hive and then some more time xenociding and slowly pushing in with Fades and Onos. End-games against aliens are usually quicker to accomplish with adequate res - very rarely have I seen alien turtling.
So, the primary problem here, in my opinion, is the Onos - a 75 res lifeform that is slow, weak against groups of marines, and has trouble navigating around maps. As it is right now, base breaking (in the absence of recycling) in high tech endgames requires a concerted effort on the part of aliens and is much more difficult than base breaking by marines of the remaining alien hive, for example.
I propose that this be fixed to reduce frustration and "epic" turtling by marines. In another thread, I suggested a viable game-ending unit for the Kharaa - very expensive and devastating. Perhaps a high-armor slow moving unit with a more devastating form of bilebomb/acidrocket + good melee capability would suit the job.
Ideas, comments?
Edit: on the same topic, it would only be fair to offer marines a high-tech very costly unit to end games with as well. I'd rather have that than the usual HA trains and dramatic last-hive sieges. If both teams are high-tech and evenly balanced for resources, then the high-tech lifeforms should be able to balance each other.
So, the primary problem here, in my opinion, is the Onos - a 75 res lifeform that is slow, weak against groups of marines, and has trouble navigating around maps. As it is right now, base breaking (in the absence of recycling) in high tech endgames requires a concerted effort on the part of aliens and is much more difficult than base breaking by marines of the remaining alien hive, for example.
I propose that this be fixed to reduce frustration and "epic" turtling by marines. In another thread, I suggested a viable game-ending unit for the Kharaa - very expensive and devastating. Perhaps a high-armor slow moving unit with a more devastating form of bilebomb/acidrocket + good melee capability would suit the job.
Ideas, comments?
Edit: on the same topic, it would only be fair to offer marines a high-tech very costly unit to end games with as well. I'd rather have that than the usual HA trains and dramatic last-hive sieges. If both teams are high-tech and evenly balanced for resources, then the high-tech lifeforms should be able to balance each other.
Comments
I know that sometimes breaking the marine team can be extremely difficult and somewhat frustrating. But some of the most fun i had was figuring out how to do it - sometimes even letting marines come out, spread thin, and then crush them. The thing is: how often do aliens get to use their 3rd hive abilities? Most of the time probably in these kinds of stalemates (Granted, the fact that aliens rarely get to use their 3rd hive abilities may be a whole other issue). These stalemates can be fun for both teams: The marines fight for their survival, knowing they can't win, and aliens can experiment - go all onos or build lots of ocs... Eventually, the aliens should be able to win, if the actually work together.
Mostly, my experience in these stalemates is that aliens can't break the marines, because they are disorganized, all around the map, while the marines are bunched up forced to help each other. When the aliens finally realize that NS is a team game and attack together, they usually win and the result is very satisfying. I haven't had very bad experiences with stalemates - at worst, i quit a game and joined one where there was more teamwork.
Adding a new, ueber unit to end the game is, i think, a step in the wrong direction: Games should be won through teamwork, not one player using a super unit.
The real reason why aliens don't win is <u>because they don't let any marines leave the base</u>. Aliens respawn far from marine start and have to travel back there in order to xenocide or put pressure as fades and lerks. Pansy onos can't get in there with a huge hitbox unless there is almost no firepower going. If aliens let the marines leave and even make a half-arsed attempt to defend a hive, they can take out marine start while the marines are attempting to take a hive. However, most pubbers can't conceive of this possibility.
Edit: In summary, all that is needed is to decrease the concentration of marine firepower at marine start - or wherever the last stand is. Pub marines are more than willing to do this themselves if allowed to leave the base. Most pub aliens do not understand this concept and cannot apply it.
It should not be that difficult to end a game - that's my point. It's stupid. I know it can be fun in its own demented way, but there are many other ways to make ending the game fun. Or making the process leading up to ending the game more fun.
As in, two players who have 100 res each, can become one lifeform. One player 'drives', one 'shoots'. I've always absolutely loved these kinds of powerful setups in games like Desert Combat (BF mod) and BF2, especially in the Helicopters. The Heli's were damn powerful enough with a good pilot, but add in a gunner on the Cannons/Miniguns and the damage was just insane.
So, make some even bigger alien. How about a huge WarGorge? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Whatever the lifeform looks like, by making it two players in one, you can uncap the 100 res max. Onos are damn awesome, but they're still only 75 res; this would be more than 2.5 times that. So, let them spit huge fireballs, or have a scream that knocks all marines to the floor, or all the guns out of their hands, or a long-range weapon that turns off a structure, etc.
You could do anything with a superclass, and keep it balanced by making it a huge cost. Especially if its HP wasn't much higher than an Onos, some of those mentioned abilities would be perfectly balanced as an End-Gamer.
Just remove the hive formula and let skulks upgrade past hive 2 without capturing any rooms. Put the blue team back on offense where it belongs.
alien ___?
problem solved
Sometimes its from an initial reloc. Sometimes the marines are just holding MS and one hive, and know they're going to lose either of them real soon, so the comm relocates to the hive while he can. Thats exactly what happened lastnight on Nothing; the comm relocated to Cargo. Hardest hive to assault (as aliens) ever. One entrance, one vent (thats not really accessible by gorges), marine structures that block the hive, tight corridors (bad for onos). Two GLs will do stupid amounts of damage.
With only two hives at their disposal (but 9 nodes), it still took aliens 20 minutes to finish them off, and that was only with 6 oni, umbra, a distraction fade, and a lot of luck.
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/3ekfiW7q1iw"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/3ekfiW7q1iw" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
No seriously it's a good idea Stix =)
I still think that holds. Any reasonably skilled group of marines could do the one hive lockdown you described. They're sacrificing winning the game for prolonging it. It's annoying to you as the kharaa team if you don't feel like breaking into their castle, but they chose to play the game as a survival map. You did win in the end, and I bet it was satisfying. If this occurred frequently enough on a server to be considered abuse I would not be surprised to see a kick/ban/teamslay but I think it's really up to the server admins. What unit could you add as a siege breaker at hive level 2 that wouldn't be overpowered at that level? If it's not overpowered would it really be a siege breaker?
BTW that's an AWESOME video.
In a case like that, where we (aliens) had unlimited res but couldn't finish it, we could definitely have saved enough for a WarGorge (thats what we'll call it for now <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />). We kept getting onos, but without all of us onos at the same time (we only had 3 at a time until the very end, cuz they kept dying, even playing defensively), we couldn't finish it. Once we had 6 onos together finally, we took it. And no, it wasn't satisfying, it was very frustrating. We we're happy we'd won, we were happy we could move on to the next map.
So, as i said, there's tons of ways to create a two-person alien worth 200 res. What if his weapons were as such:
First ability: Gore. 100 damage. (no damage multiplier to structures, so Onos still hold the role of the ultimate structure-killer)
Hive 1: Blast. An arm-like appendage shoots a stream of bile, about 6 feet long. This bile flies straight (maybe falls a bit with gravity), and does 50 damage for a large radius (twice that of Acid?), with a triple multiplier on structures. So, its not as good as Bile against structures, but it has longer range, and damages marines quite a bit (you'd still have to balance energy cost).
Hive 2: War Cry. Boosts all aliens around it by +20% armor and +20% speed.
Hive 3: XenoBomb. Self destructs, causing 2500 damage within a range of twice xeno.
Perhaps HP of 1000, armor of 1000. So unupgraded, its pretty much a carapace onos.
How would that sound? Would it be balanced for 200 res? (keep in mind thats 2.85 onos)
Superunits are one way and I really don't mind seeing those playtested. Another way is something like the Nydus worm (from Starcraft) or an enhanced movement chamber as a structure available to the Kharaa after the 2nd hive, which would at least help to concentrate alien forces to the same extent as the marines.
Aliens on the other have, don't have a really special weapon like this. Yes the third hive abilities really help with the MS takedown, but what if MS is in a hive? Relocations will (better) always be part of the game. And a strong reloc in a (semi-) poorly designed hive is a perfect example of why this unit would be awesome.
alien DI based siege structure aliens get lots of res and can drop a structure. This structure grows but slowly extending large teethed tenticals in several directions. they grow into the area the aliens wish to take, spray spores of some sort and devour rines or structures, im not sure which would work best. each tenitcal arm has very high hp. but the structure at the source is quite weak. so if the aliens defend the base then rush in once the arms have destroyed lots of rines or rine structures.
another alternative would be a fast growing high res cost smothering di that gets in to phase gates and other structures and shuts them down. the gorges could select a source with in the di and the super di could spread out as they apply more res building. the rines could try and hold it back but combined with an alien attack they may struggle. the super di would eventually grow over buildings and shut them down, making an alien assault easier.
Thanks to weapon-drop'n'pick they don't even need much res to maintain their strength.
A while ago I made a suggestion regarding the arms lab to deal with the endgame situations.
It would basicly reintroduce res-cost for spawn, which depends on the armor upgrade the marine spawns with.
So while you still enable the armor levels by research at the arms lab(lower cost of course), the commander has the options of armor levels by selecting a infantry portal and he can decide with how much armor the next marines will spawn depending on the res situation.
If no res is available, the marine will spawn with au0; res-cost for au1-au3 is something like 1-3.
This wouldn't only weaken marines in endgames who lost map control, but would also add another option to balance for game-size, because more au2/3 marines need more res to spawn.
Marine res-to-spawn was dropped a long time ago, and for good reason.
The fact remains that alien endgame tech isn't weaker in comparision to marine endgame tech, but that marines are too strong after they lost mapcontrol compared to aliens who did, because they don't need more locations to gain strength; only res. Adding super units would just result in marines turtling with their super unit and changed nothing, if both super units really were balancing each other as suggested.
Although I agree that a more far-ranged, (bouncy) bilebomb would help a lot, your superunit idea is just bad. Warcry is too similar to primal scream and what's the point of suiciding a 200 res unit.
So imho a better solution is that marines are in some way more dependent on res in the endgame to remain their strength, which would result in a faster victory for aliens, if marines were only camping in base with one res tower.
Of course changing rescost and adding some sort of upkeep, res-to-spawn or whatever to enforce this idea needs balance testing just like super units would as well.
Another good idea was already posted and I agree that it could help a little for aliens to end the game faster, if they had a way to concentrate their forces.
<!--quoteo(post=1663792:date=Dec 12 2007, 11:40 PM:name=Sarisel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sarisel @ Dec 12 2007, 11:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1663792"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Another way is something like the Nydus worm (from Starcraft) or an enhanced movement chamber as a structure available to the Kharaa after the 2nd hive, which would at least help to concentrate alien forces to the same extent as the marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe an alien calling for help next to an mc or a certain alien using a 2nd hive ability next to a mc (primal scream would be perfect here, but it's 3rd hive :/) enables all other mcs to teleport to that location for some seconds including some hive mind voice just like you need someone using/spitting the hive in order to call reinforcement.
I just made those up as i went along.
Warcry is too similar to primal? Except its available at 2 hives, and affects armor and speed; primal affects damage, rate of fire and energy. While primal is pretty awesome for additional damage which is good for any scenario, WarCry specifically helps aliens make it into the marine stronghold instead of dying as they run up. Picture a Carapace onos receiving +20% armor and +20% speed, and then tell me if its really similar to primal.
Of course, it could be changed, it was just the first relatively balanced idea i came up with for 3rd ability.
Whats the point of suiciding a 200 res unit? Well, with a range twice as big as acid or xeno (you'd have to set it large, but not TOO large), and dealing <i><u>twenty five hundred damage</i></u>, that is a whole lot of reason to explode. That would kill the obs (1700 hp), arms (2200 hp), and ips (2500 hp), but not the armory (4000 hp), proto (4000 hp), or phase gate (3000 hp).
Being set at 2500 exactly, you can see how much potential that would have. With the range specified and the general method that commanders layout their bases, this alien could position himself in many different ways during the XenoBomb. He could focus on the IPs, or the arms (i'd make sure the arms was one of the ones I hit), or the obs, and then see what else he could take with it. Since the alien starts out with 1000/1000, carapace on top of that would almost ensure he could get the xenobomb off. THAT would be a game ender.
Of course, you could make it so that the xenobomb takes 10 seconds to go off, and that the creature unleashes a massive scream that can be heard everywhere in the map. As such, marines would know they're about to all go boom, and to get ready in the hope of actually killing it in time.
Imagine the cheers of actually taking out one of these WarGorges (tentative name <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />)? Of course, you'd still have to deal with the rest of the alien team, but that would be a huge feat.
Of course changing res cost and adding some sort of upkeep, res-to-spawn or whatever to enforce this idea needs balance testing just like super units would as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree, although RFS probably isn't the solution. Maybe alien respawn could be faster when there's more territory controlled? I think we want to avoid hurting the marines artificially; I still hear gripes about the Ping of Death from time to time. I think boosting the aliens some way through DI would be the way to go if this really is a problem.
Aliens are trying to take over a marine base. Marines win if they kill off the aliens, but aliens should win if they control a certain (very high) % of the map, or perhaps have a certain amount of DI in marine start, or something to that affect. I can't really think of any solutions to the marine team wasting a ton of time at the end of the game that wouldn't either hurt the marine team or make the alien team stronger, except for changing the end game trigger.