Alien Commander Discussion
Radix
Join Date: 2005-01-10 Member: 34654Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2005-01-10 Member: 34654Members, Constellation
The differentiation between marines and aliens is held as sacred by many players, and this is as it should be, because this is one of the fundamentally brilliant points of Natural-Selection.
However, in order to facilitate a better alien resource system (especially for pub games), Mr. Cleveland has expressed a desire to implement an alien commander mode in NS2.
Therefore, it's proper to discuss it, since it would be such a tremendous deviation from the game we know and love. Any input below this point is my opinion only.
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First of all, let me say that I'm against the idea of creating an RTS view for any member of the alien side. It's a cheap mirroring of the marine commander trademark and does nothing to improve gameplay, it's completely and totally uneccessary and should <b><!--coloro:red--><span style="color:red"><!--/coloro-->NEVER<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b> be implemented in NS2.
<b>With that said</b> this mindset doesn't negate the possibility of an alien commander, however it does significantly alter one's paradigm for what a commander is.
In my mind, the purpose of the commander is to <b>organize and support</b> the rest of the team on the strategic (vs tactical) level, and while the marines have been severely restricted in the number of commanders per game (1) and should continue to be restricted in NS2 (I believe to 2, but that's not the point of this post), the aliens can gain this gameplay element without resorting to low-class imitations of previous games.
<!--coloro:lime--><span style="color:lime"><!--/coloro-->So please consider granting aliens an option at the beginning of the game, to spawn as a worker, or a solider class. I believe the best possible implementation of an alien commander lies not in a direct mirror copy of the marine commander (but for the alien side of the game) but in a new alien lifeform whose purpose is to organize and support the alien team, <b>but, unlike the gorge, whose opportunity cost is no greater than a skulk</b>.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
The concept would permit an alien player to "lose" many of their combat abilities in favor of the speed and evasion necessary to traverse the map quickly enough to allow them to manage the DI, doors, resources, and any other of the critical strategic elements inherent in a game of NS (and hopefully NS2)'s magnitude.
The concept of an "enchanter battle cleric" like the gorge is a good one, but since you've suggested adding an entirely new style of gameplay to the alien side of the game (which will already inherently dwarf the gorge because their roles are similar, but the new class is more specialized), I believe this system is worth considering and testing for viability, as either an augmentation to, or additional option vs, the gorge class.
I honestly don't think that this "worker" type commander would "steal the spotlight" from gorges, although it would probably funnel them more into active "medic" roles than they currently hold, which in my mind is good because it's simple for new players, and honestly, gorges spend a great deal of time now doing nothing, and this seeks to solve that to some degree, at least.
What are your thoughts?
However, in order to facilitate a better alien resource system (especially for pub games), Mr. Cleveland has expressed a desire to implement an alien commander mode in NS2.
Therefore, it's proper to discuss it, since it would be such a tremendous deviation from the game we know and love. Any input below this point is my opinion only.
///////////////////////////////////////////////////
First of all, let me say that I'm against the idea of creating an RTS view for any member of the alien side. It's a cheap mirroring of the marine commander trademark and does nothing to improve gameplay, it's completely and totally uneccessary and should <b><!--coloro:red--><span style="color:red"><!--/coloro-->NEVER<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b> be implemented in NS2.
<b>With that said</b> this mindset doesn't negate the possibility of an alien commander, however it does significantly alter one's paradigm for what a commander is.
In my mind, the purpose of the commander is to <b>organize and support</b> the rest of the team on the strategic (vs tactical) level, and while the marines have been severely restricted in the number of commanders per game (1) and should continue to be restricted in NS2 (I believe to 2, but that's not the point of this post), the aliens can gain this gameplay element without resorting to low-class imitations of previous games.
<!--coloro:lime--><span style="color:lime"><!--/coloro-->So please consider granting aliens an option at the beginning of the game, to spawn as a worker, or a solider class. I believe the best possible implementation of an alien commander lies not in a direct mirror copy of the marine commander (but for the alien side of the game) but in a new alien lifeform whose purpose is to organize and support the alien team, <b>but, unlike the gorge, whose opportunity cost is no greater than a skulk</b>.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
The concept would permit an alien player to "lose" many of their combat abilities in favor of the speed and evasion necessary to traverse the map quickly enough to allow them to manage the DI, doors, resources, and any other of the critical strategic elements inherent in a game of NS (and hopefully NS2)'s magnitude.
The concept of an "enchanter battle cleric" like the gorge is a good one, but since you've suggested adding an entirely new style of gameplay to the alien side of the game (which will already inherently dwarf the gorge because their roles are similar, but the new class is more specialized), I believe this system is worth considering and testing for viability, as either an augmentation to, or additional option vs, the gorge class.
I honestly don't think that this "worker" type commander would "steal the spotlight" from gorges, although it would probably funnel them more into active "medic" roles than they currently hold, which in my mind is good because it's simple for new players, and honestly, gorges spend a great deal of time now doing nothing, and this seeks to solve that to some degree, at least.
What are your thoughts?
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
So the gorge is mainly a medic class as you already mentioned,but is also still able to build those dropped structures to finish them faster.
To add some more excitement and variety to the alien commander, there will be probably introduced some more actions kinda like "spells" and of course the creation of tubes. Maybe even a little control over DI by setting priorities where to spread first or something.
The alien commander can only see marines near/in DI or seen by alien players so he won't be able to watch all the marine's places and their stuff.
Although I'm not a big fan of oc spam, it would maybe help to keep the gorge attracted to its current fans by leaving the ability to build ocs to the gorge, thus it stays a medic/engineer class, while the commander focus on research and tech covered by all the other structures.
To become the alien commander, you have to gestate as usual, but it doesn't cost res and you won't be able to use your lifeform res as the commander or your commander res as lifeform after you "leave the chair" or got "ejected" <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
Just my opinion and idea how it may work.
In any case I agree that it should be as different as possible from the marine commander and a big No for top down view.
Organisation for NS commanders isn't fun- you command players not NPCs so they'll often disregard what you say or already do it without you say anything. This is why NS1's commander has been reduced to being a mobile med dispenser.
I'd like to see one marine com and one alien com. As a competitive commander I enjoyed playing against the other good commanders such as Peach or Mike, but in NS1 you were never directly competing against one another as commanders. It's like golf- yes you're trying to beat one another, but what the other guy does as commander has no impact on what you do as commander. With a com on both teams it'd be more competitive.
---> __/
<!--quoteo(post=1664216:date=Dec 16 2007, 05:31 AM:name=sherpa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(sherpa @ Dec 16 2007, 05:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664216"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My thoughts are that the topic starter talks in the same convoluted way as Colonel Sanders from The Matrix 2; and uses speech marks when their thesaurus doesn't come up with any smarter words. Ergo, needlessley complicated for a video game forum.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You've been flamed.
Yes competing commanders is fun in theory, but that would destroy the essence of Natural Selection. You're playing hockey on a very thin sheet of ice, don't compromise the uniqueness of the two sides.
By doing this you give the Marines incentive to burn away the infection as part of securing an area.
Of course I could just be insane.
This way, both sides need to work together to spread their influence, on one side the DI (and Gorges), the other the Nanites (and Welding events).
I also agree that the top down view for the Kharaa would be a mistake, but rather, some sort of sentience could be drawn from the Infestation, much like a Commander gains their view point from the Nanite infrastructure that is the back bone of many a base, station and ship.
Did you see one post where it summarized the conflict as nature vs industrial? Well, personally, I would say it is BIOLOGICAL Vs CYBERNETIC, I hope that is very much considered into the different experiences on each team and the possible ways in which they could both improve. For the Kharaa, I would look to examples from nature and the six senses: psychic, taste, smell, touch (pressure), sight, and feel (heat). For the Marines, I would hope for much more in the way of androids, robots, cyborgs, and anything else influenced by a human life filled with nano-bots.
Have fun and happy hunting in all your games, my fellow Natural Selection fans! Happy Holidays!
Sure, you'll be able to compete with the marine commander - to some extent.
However, what does this mean for the alien res system? Will the commander be spending the alien resources now? Will the commander have control over which structures are dropped and which lifeforms are assigned to a player? One of the reasons why I liked playing as the Kharaa was due to the freedom of choice to drop structures or become whatever lifeform you wanted. If you're limited to playing as a boring melee unit that just dies all the time just because your commander willed it to be so - that's going to get old pretty fast. At least as marines you can kill skulks pretty easily in the first few minutes of the game before the commander turns out to be a failure.
Will gorges have to collaborate with the commander to drop a particular hive or structure? That's going to be awkward.
Implementing a significant commander role for aliens is going to be difficult without challenging aspects of the team that make it fun to play. This doesn't mean that Flayra and Max shouldn't try to implement it - maybe they will come up with something good. However, it is very easy to screw this up - which would probably lead to me not purchasing the game.
I think it'd mean a 30 second fade for enigma in every pub. I don't even want to think about facing him before I have my w2/a1 shotgun.
I also agree with the OP over sherpa. I'd rather see a different alien command structure.
Maybe the alien comm role should be carried out by a hive mind. hive implies corporate intelligence of several individuals (actually i havnt checked the dictionary but this is what i thought it implied). So maybe the hive mind could some how be done in part by every player, but appear to be one force. I have no solid ideas about how you would get this to work.
a Simple hive mind would be a voting system i suppose, but if the aliens had to vote on everything it would be slow and more like a democratic tribunal. And everyone who lives in a democracy on these forums will no how long it cant take to get things done.
having said that id like an alien comm system that pushes the alien team in a direction through a corporate agreement. I spose you could call this normal team work. But id like it more developed. So if several members of the alien team wanted to take over a room with DI or build a tunnel or structure they could let the hive mind know and it would happen, possibly by an AI program that spreads the Di or creates what ever structure.
You could have a pop up window like the mini map that displays the hivemind view. u cud get a map where all the intelligence the alien team has accumulated (position of enemys, structures, welded doors, and other relevent knowledge) was displayed so all players would be equally well informed in a hive or collective kind of way. They could also use this screen for deciding stratergy. Atm the rine comm can drop a waypoint. Well if enuth aliens indicated an area to take over every alien on the team could get a hivemind message telling them to go to this location.
i know what ive described could easily be superseded by good team work but since good team work is rare on alien teams i think the suggestion is valid. Also since my idea of its implementation is based on a democratic principle it comes with lots of strings attached
Well I was thinking about that at work and you are right. The only thing we really can't do is make the hive offense capable. But what about the ability to hinder? As an example it could cause infested areas to form barricades in narrow corridors for the marines to break through, create platforms on the high walls for ambush attacks and small stalagmite like structures for skulks and gorges to hide behind.
I agree but remember the commander will have DI/Nanite control as well as possible weld bots. There will be more for the commanders to do than be buffers/debuffers.
check out my idea, instead of giving a single alien a king/commander position, a ONE FOR ALL attitude (similar to marine structure), try incorporating the original ALL FOR ONE game play that is unique to the aliens within the new feature of the hive-mind. What about giving the aliens this new feature in which only gorgs could access. Multiple gorgs would have the ability to "resonate" with the hive mind, accessing the overview mode. To the extent of power, time use,and utility of each "resonating" gorg would be completely formed around play testing. I think there could two separate and equally important roles the gorg could play, and this would help stray from monotony.. finding balance between playing gorg and "resonating". And I know you two were talking about "down time" and "up time", maybe going into the comm mode for the gorgs could be down time that would make healing on the front lines that much better. It would in the best case make the alien side that much more dynamic.
This would most likely add confusion... but each gorg could be partitioned options of the commander menu. Its really up in the air.
And that's why we can't let it splat.
I do like the hive-mind idea because it gives you access to new game play ideas that you couldn't get to otherwise. But much of the community has spoken in caution.. Tweaking with the function/role of the hive-mind could end up being one of the more rewarding game play experiences for ns2. GL GL GL!!!
Basically I wouldnt accept a alien commander that has : a) An overview of the map like the Marines b) decides which structures are built and where c) decides on the evolution tree the aliens must take d) issues out 'evolutions' to the aliens.... all these feature would mean 'Marines with an Alien skin'
I cant see where a Commander class can be added , without fubaring the unique NS team structure... playing Marines is like good old fashion run and gun and have a basic blast, Aliens is a strange mix of 'its in you hands, but work with your team or else' .. your independent in your decision but totally Dependant on your team mates to help you realise your desicion.
Gorges build and heal, the rest fight in various styles.. whats a Commander going to do ?
If I was to suggest a manner to add a commander of sorts , I would simply allow the aliens an ability to 'merge' at will with the hive, and gain the sight of the the hivemind (overview), but any alien can attach itself to the hive and gain the sight, and just detach to get back to the business of killing marines.
True.
But I still don't like the idea of an alien commander, it won't have the same.. 'feeling' for the aliens - and I mean, isn't one of the goals of UWE to create an immersive atmosphere in NS2? The aliens are distinct and unique from the marines. (Apart from the obvious differences in combat and form,) while the marines rely on organisation, the aliens pretty much just work as a pack - well, with a few (many?) lonewolves.
Personally I'd just like to see UWE's ideas for alien commander, and how they're gonna address the issues that've been brought up a few times in a few threads.
I want more than just "We're thinking about making an alien commander." - I want to know -what- you're thinking. It's not nice to tease. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
(Still, I guess they don't wanna get people too excited over just speculation - but we're already a pretty excitable lot anyway, as we've all seen <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />)
I would be kind of interesting when marines are walking thru a corridor, then tentacles burst out behind, and without a grenade launcher or a flamer they aren't able to backout. Then the walls around them mutate, some grabbing marines (aliens style) and fusing them into the infestation, some walls mutate further, and develop openings where aliens come out.
I see the alien commander's tasks being more as a service rather than a commander, you would call it like the hive mind overlord or something, where it complements the aliens, but they still make all of the descisions on their own.
The abilities would be things like, placing traps, encouraging faster DI growth, opening tunnels, picking up gorges and moving them, etc.
The commander of the alien side shall have automated gorges controlled by bots to do his bidding, and the number of gorge bots will increase proportionally to the number of players these bots shall not count against the player count, these gorges will be slightly different though in the fact that they will have no offensive abilities, merely the ability to heal and build, the resources these gorges use will come from the commanders resource pool
The commander's resource pool will be derived from "taxing" other players resource points, the commander will receive a small percentage of all points earned for the alien team, and the commander can change the amount of tax at any time, and the current tax will be viewable by all players in case they don't like it, the tax can go from anywhere between 5 to 50%
I feel this is the best choice because it keeps the sides unique in the fact that marine commander can drop buildings anywhere, and the alien commander must have his builders protected in order to begin building, it also works because people can still be gorges and do gorge things if they desire, but it won't force people to be gorges, if everyone on the team didn't want to blow all their rez becoming a gorge and making buildings, they don't have to, but they can if they still want to.
P.S I really like the trap idea as well.
He said "each member of the alien team is part of the hive mind."
And that's it. There is a commander for the alien team, except it's split up. With that in mind, everyone still gets res but some of that res is scattered across the team specifically for the 'hive mind' skills. Each alien would have two -distinct- res pools.
The alien team would -need- a different com-res/normal-person-res ratio though than the marine team, unfortunately because the alien's com res would be scattered. For the hive mind of each player, I'd add abilities such as "spread infestation here faster, spread infestation here now (costs more res), nuke this area with infestation almost instantly (lots more), battle rejuvenate, battle umbra, battle spore, battle slow, battle sleep, etc etc etc. ALL of these affects -could- be done by individual players who have enough res and are within 'range' or 'distance' of the DI. -Gorges- could have the ability to push in "way-stations" that act has extensions for the DI's power for growth (and thereby the hive's mind-.
The individuals on the alien side would be the hive mind, ie. the commander.
The intuitive interface needed though would be quite the challenge, and possibly never balanced in a pub setting b/c not everyone on the alien team would know what to do.
Solution:::::
Perhaps the alien 'hive mind' would 'overflow' quite quickly to others so that if peeps don't use their 'hive mind' skills, then others who know what to do get a -LOT- of 'hive mind res' to use later (ie, if you're overflowing hive-mind res then others get it). You just have to have the hive-mind res max out in about 2-3 minutes per person for it to work.
On the collective side you should be able to pull together to each give Xres to new hive/Chamber type plus vote on the new hive location/ chamber type.
I've tried thinking about an alien commander implementation but I can't help cringeing at the idea for the above reason.
Group voting feels like the only workable way of encouraging more structured alien game-play without losing the autonomy of every team member.
i was playing bf2 the other day, and whenever there is a vote for mutiny, maybe 6 out of 17 people (which i think is too high to vote out the commander) voted <b>at all</b>.
i think it's mainly because it interrupts the flow of the game, or the action - and the same case would be true, probably moreso, for NS2 - you make aliens vote on every little detail, i just don't think they will :/
i think there just has to be a much easier way to communicate - and some way to enforce cooperation
but it makes me wonder about the alien commander, since the reason given for its possible implementation, was to mainly unify the resource model, rather than enable co-ordinated play.
besides what would the aliens even vote on, and imagine how much it slows things down.
"can i drop RT tower here?"
voting............still voting..............3 no 2 yes
"How about over here"
voting.........voting......voting.......voting........3 no 2 yes.
"I've taken double and marines are on their way, can i drop an offense chamber?"
voting.......voting.......voting......voting......player has died, voting is null."
and everyone would be so busy trying to further their own agendas that eventually you'd have groups of people voting everything down until u get to what they want to build.
there is reason war isn't run by democratic process.
that's an idea i've thought about too, but i didn't really like it. one of the reasons is that it takes away a class to select, from players.
i'd also thought of the idea of the commander being some kind of (wall-crawling?) super-gorge. and you can slice that any way you want, but one of the features it would include would be to -not- have (primarily) top-down view, buildings and such would be placed in the same way a gorge does in NS. and not only the experience, but the roles of either commander would be quite different.
<!--quoteo(post=1665742:date=Dec 31 2007, 07:43 AM:name=Al_Ka_Pwn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Al_Ka_Pwn @ Dec 31 2007, 07:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665742"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->besides what would the aliens even vote on, and imagine how much it slows things down.
"can i drop RT tower here?"
voting............still voting..............3 no 2 yes
"How about over here"
voting.........voting......voting.......voting........3 no 2 yes.
"I've taken double and marines are on their way, can i drop an offense chamber?"
voting.......voting.......voting......voting......player has died, voting is null."
and everyone would be so busy trying to further their own agendas that eventually you'd have groups of people voting everything down until u get to what they want to build.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yep this is pretty much what i'm saying
<!--quoteo(post=1665742:date=Dec 31 2007, 07:43 AM:name=Al_Ka_Pwn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Al_Ka_Pwn @ Dec 31 2007, 07:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665742"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->there is reason war isn't run by democratic process.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
heh. too true.