Development Blog Update - Skulk view rotation, from the archives
Max
Technical Director, Unknown Worlds Entertainment Join Date: 2002-03-15 Member: 318Super Administrators, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts, Future Perfect Developer
Technical Director, Unknown Worlds Entertainment Join Date: 2002-03-15 Member: 318Super Administrators, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts, Future Perfect Developer
Comments
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In the case of the Skulk rotation, it was clear the rotated view made it more difficult to orient yourself, attack enemies and would probably have been nauseating for lots of people.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And then say that you're thinking about putting it in NS2?
one thing though , its probably not necessary to rotate the view for every angle, i would make the view only rotate on right angles, meaning the view rotate to match walls, floors and cielings. there isnt really a need to rotate it for anything under 90deg which would include most of the details and decorative brushes.
Also a slower transition would help i think, and a slight delay between when the view rotates to the new angle, often a skulk player will be on a wall then cieling then wall in quick succession - that manouveour would make a person dizzy, but if the view has time to check that you are on a wall for a 2nd time then it would never fully rotate to the cieling. (hope that makes sense lol)
also allowing skulk players a 3rd person view might help orientate players with view rotation
And then say that you're thinking about putting it in NS2?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
easy, he typed it on a keyboard and hit "post"......
they are testing it as they did with ns1, <b>obviously</b> it won't going into the game if its not as good as the current system.
And then say that you're thinking about putting it in NS2?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That statement was referring to the implementation we had in NS. At this stage I don't really know if it can be done in a way that is better for the player than the non-rotating view, but I'm willing to give it a shot. Obviously if it turns out inferior we won't include it (just like in NS).
In some theoretical implementation I imagine it making wall walking easier, since you could run along along a weird surface just as easily as you run along a flat floor. I have yet to see that in a game though, so at this point it's just speculation.
Imagine a flight simulator with a camera that doesn't turn with your plane. Nuh uh, that won't fly. Can't see why it would be any different for this.
Try making it easier to know which way is down. Perhaps a transparent arrow in the middle of the screen pointing towards the floor; or perhaps best would be if the floor actually coloured itself a very pale shade of red or such. This could potentially be done with overlays and normals. If the skulk could always tell where the ground floor was located via visual, blatant cues which didn't impede any combat actions, you'd be set. Of course, this would be the kind of option that COULD have a toggle in the options.
Oh, and I believe a 'wall-stick' addition would have to be implemented if you wanted players to actually have the same level of comfort when running along walls and ceilings. I'm saying this because when on the ground, an alien can have his view above the horizon; if a skulk on the ceiling has his view below the horizon (or, if inverted, above the horizon), he detaches from the ceiling and falls. You can avoid this with a function like the current +speed (or whatever is the shift command) minus the speed reduction. That command is the key for using Vaulting correctly (imo at least), since otherwise a moving skulk will generally fall off the wall when he turns away from it, before the vault command goes through.
A) Visual cue as to where the ground is. AvP2 has little blue markers that show around the edge of your screen when wallwalking. When you're on the ground they're both merged at the bottom middle of the screen. If you're on a 90 degree wall, they're in the middle of the sides of your screen. If you're on a 45 degree angle backwards then they're on the sides near the top. If you're hanging off the roof then they're both in the middle of the top. Using these gives the player a very useful cue as to how they're oriented, which is especially useful if there's no obvious ground visible which is often the case in organic environments like hives where the wall looks pretty much the same as the floor or roof.
B) View tending back towards ground-down after detaching from a wall. Whilst airborne after having jumped off a wall or roof, the player's view should re-orient to the angle of the surface the player is about to land on, most frequently the ground. Not doing this results in a horribly jarring jerk as your view quickly spins around to orient to the ground you've just landed on. In AvP2 this happens somewhat frequently.
Ideally the view would rotate to match the angle of whatever you're landing on. So if you jumped from one wall in a narrow corridor to another, your view would rotate from -90 to 90. This would take a lot of trickery to get right, and wouldn't work every time considering player air control. In AvP2 your view would start to rotate towards 0 (ground-down) as soon as you detached from the first wall, then snap to 90 as you land on the other wall.
<img src="http://xs222.xs.to/xs222/07515/viewrot.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
I created this handy-dandy diagram of what I mean.
Another important thing is to have the angle of the surface to which the player is adhering is formed of an average of the normal on the surface/surfaces under the player, not the point under the player's origin, or another single attachment point. This is important to prevent the player's view spazzing out when they pass over a tiny bit of detail brushwork. The view should only change for major surface angle changes.
View rotation is a subject on which I'm very passionate, having mastered AvP2's view rotation and being well aware of its shortcomings.
--Scythe--
Someone posted already that you could implement it without the rotation if you are at the ceiling. But I would try a different approach:
Make the view rotation not full 90% if you climb on a wall. Change it for like 30 degree so you have the feeling that you climb on the wall, but you bend your head to compensate the view. I can only guess how this will look ingame, but I think it's worth a try.
I would not implement the view rotation, if it would be the same as AvP2. It's just too complicated.
At a side note: I really appreciate that you have the guts to kill a part of your game for the sake of the user experience! I think everyone knows how hard it is to put some of your work in the garbage.
Thanks for the post!
It would also make a mappers life a little more interesting, you could design your ceiling like your floors. Would probably make mappers think about the ceiling space a lot more as well, as well as how you go from one to another, which might make the maps slightly easier for aliens to move around. With less stupid 90º angles that just end up with you falling down and being shot.
Currently ceilings are generally pretty blank and have little for aliens to hide behind, I hope some mappers decided to put in obstacles and defensive objects on the ceilings for NS2; even if they are just pipes <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Looks cool, I hope it goes in!
EDIT:
<!--quoteo(post=1664738:date=Dec 21 2007, 12:31 AM:name=StixNStonz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StixNStonz @ Dec 21 2007, 12:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664738"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh, and I believe a 'wall-stick' addition would have to be implemented if you wanted players to actually have the same level of comfort when running along walls and ceilings. I'm saying this because when on the ground, an alien can have his view above the horizon; if a skulk on the ceiling has his view below the horizon (or, if inverted, above the horizon), he detaches from the ceiling and falls. You can avoid this with a function like the current +speed (or whatever is the shift command) minus the speed reduction. That command is the key for using Vaulting correctly (imo at least), since otherwise a moving skulk will generally fall off the wall when he turns away from it, before the vault command goes through.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah that’s true, I hate the way you can't run along the ceiling and look down. And the fact that you have to stop to attack.
Jump should be detach from a surface. That way you could run all over every surface and just slap your spacebar to go and chomp a marine below you. It would make a lot more scenes. Than just going in the direction you look when on a wall or ceiling. I don’t know if this would make moving around maps harder or easier, but it would defiantly make attacking and travelling defensively on the ceiling.
I'm against it, I'll say, but I still don't understand the "failure" to decide on a static system. Some games allow model customization. That's not a crime against the developers, that's.. if anything a good thing, allowing people to set up the game how they wish to play it.
Valve does an excellent job with that, and NS is similar.
Other companies don't put out as user friendly products.
It would also make a mappers life a little more interesting, you could design your ceiling like your floors. Would probably make mappers think about the ceiling space a lot more as well, as well as how you go from one to another, which might make the maps slightly easier for aliens to move around. With less stupid 90º angles that just end up with you falling down and being shot.
Currently ceilings are generally pretty blank and have little for aliens to hide behind, I hope some mappers decided to put in obstacles and defensive objects on the ceilings for NS2; even if they are just pipes <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Looks cool, I hope it goes in!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
cielings are blank because the commander needs to see through them, it can be done, but it gets pretty complicated with hl1 limitations to get a detailed cieling as well as making it all so that its see thru for the comm.
I always thought it would be cool if the map was somehow virtualised and rather than rotating the skulk player, it would rotate the map, so then every surface would act as the floor, and you could always jump/ leap from every surface, and always fall back down to it. (which might look strange but would make wall climbing more natural)
Btw im enthused with your organising skill and constant updates within the community, doing a great job guys,
Matt.
What about just rotating the viewmodel instead of the POV? It could add a little more immersion without effecting player disorientation. I'm just not sure if people would like it or not. It's worth a try.
I look forward to improved wall-walking and intelligent skulk leg animations. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
(I remember that video... 3rd person model rotation got me excited at the time.)
The rotation sounds neat on paper but i find it confusing no matter how smooth.
It should default to third person for melee type weapons.
That means biting, slashing (Fades) etc.
give me a good third person camera by default.
Remember Jedi Outcast.
Gave you some slick weapons in FPS mode.
But when you switched to lightsaber....thirdperson.
I slash the guy on my left ...I slash on my right...I rule :-)
nice surprise post before christmas max.
I shoved that book link into my wishlist.
this is nice GUI design book.
<a href="http://www.amazon.com/Designing-Interfaces-Patterns-Effective-Interaction/dp/0596008031/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1198214098&sr=8-1" target="_blank">Go</a>
I do like StixNStonz's suggestion, I hate falling of the ceiling cause I wanna see who is below me. I think a wall stick function would be a better option than rotating views.
The rotation sounds neat on paper but i find it confusing no matter how smooth.
It should default to third person for melee type weapons.
That means biting, slashing (Fades) etc.
give me a good third person camera by default.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
so you can look around corners without revealing yourself? no thanks.
Now I'm not saying that wall-rotation view is complex, but I think it adds an element of complexity and disorientation that does not need to exist. Perhaps some people would find it more fun, but many would find it less fun.
<!--coloro:lime--><span style="color:lime"><!--/coloro-->Solutions you should look at:<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
1. Make a "this way is up" arrow, like Stix said.
2. Require that wallwalking be toggled on, instead of off, and that a non-sticking skulk (like a cat) would "always land on its feet".
3. Consider a thirdperson camera for melee classes like the skulk.
The problem isn't that it might disorient the player, the problem comes if the player can't easily reorient him/herself at the touch of a button. But of course, if a system like this is - as the article mentioned - objectively worse than the current system after being tested, it shouldn't be implemented. Because of that, I would probably test it in a relatively raw form before trying to refine it.
Anyway, the -by necessity- sharp snaps when orienting to a new surface is the downfall of this otherwise cool idea. The game is a multiplayer game after all, and as such playability comes first. In the -mostly- sp settings that the AvP games had it added only immersion and awesomeness. But AvP and NS aren't really similar except for the fantasy-/scifi-alien-bug-invasion-setting.
Playability and simplicity of features was what made NS popular. This idea goes the same way as secondary fire modes in my mind - out the window!
[note: simplicity and intuitivity isn't always the same thing ^^]
meh aliens have scent of fear, parasites and cloaking, and not to mention you can hear everything through walls now matter how thick.i doubt it would impact the game too much
I think we defiantly need a wall stick.
I didnt find a rotating camera that confusing in avp 2 how ever. in avp2 i could run down a celling and pounce on a marine bellow. I cant do this on NS and ive never seen any one else do it well on ns. Id like a skulk that can attack the rines from all sides with relative ease. If a rotating camera helps this im pro. I like a rotating camera but i admit some players will moan about it. with the current skulk view i want to behave as if the ground is bellow me, when its to my side or above me, and this is irritating.
<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/skulk.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::skulk::" border="0" alt="skulk.gif" /> 1) NS is unique to AVP
<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/marine.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::marine::" border="0" alt="marine.gif" /> 2) easy of use by new players
<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/asrifle.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::asrifle::" border="0" alt="asrifle.gif" /> 3) no additional information needed by the player for horizon detection (which way is up).
from a NS user perspective I would put this to the test. Does it IMPROVE game play or just do something nifty? If the answer is nifty then you should think about dropping it.
~D
Getting it configured properly so it's not disorientating for the situation is paramount, considering ours was used for a slower-to-mid paced combat, and yours will be a faster-paced type combat view.
But if you REALLY want it, perhaps there an even more middle-of-the-road solution. Let the view rotate up to 90 degrees either way; so if a skulk jumps on a perfectly straight wall, his view will follow.
BUT, once the view is past 90 degrees (so once UP becomes DOWN), reverse it. Turn it into the current style; its like the skulk's mind is compensating for the inversion.
If the skulk was on a flat ceiling, he'd look like he was hanging from it (like NS currently). If he was on a diagonal on the ceiling, he'd look like he was hanging on that too (like his feet were sticking away from the wall; his body would be following the face's normal).
This might not work out in use, or it might work phenomenally. I find the most disorienting aspect of AVP 2 is once you get past the 90 degree mark. Perhaps disallowing this, and reversing it, would fix the issue.
1. it would just confuse me
2. im already used to the current view-system
3. guess you cant wallstrafe with that
maybe there are some ppl who like it, so making an option to change it could be good for as long as the current view-system is choseable. else i might never ever play skulk again
i've already played 1 game that had this view-system for a class similar to the skulk, and it was HORRIBLE to play tbh. well, tast varys.